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Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 347

post #10381 of 11473
Quote:
I'm quite sure that, for my viewing environment, the ZT would have been too dim. I think the 64" F8500 was the best choice.

 

I would agree.  I loved my ZT, but it was too dim, even in a totally darkened environment.  For 3D, it couldn't even push enough luminance to bring out detail.  Consulted with two calibrators, both who told me that there wouldn't be too much they could do to push brightness.

 

So, based on that, I think you made the perfect choice.  I am far happier with my F8500 than I was with the ZT.

 

 

Quote:
The vividness and sharpness of the F8500 is a little strange to me. I haven't quite found the dial-in to tame it yet.

 

I understand what you are talking about.  The ZT has a more tamed, cinematic look to it.  The F8500 looks more like video.  It takes a little getting used to, but there's ways to perfect that picture.   If you are getting a "soap opera" effect (where movies look like a stage play or tv soap opera) then you need to turn off Cinema Smooth.  However, there is a "bug" that Samsung is aware of, and you will probably need to do the following:

 

There still is an occasional bug when you turn off CINEMA SMOOTH. It sometime puts MOTION JUTTER CONTROL in smooth, even though it says it is off. So immediately after turning CS off, turn MJC to smooth, and then back to off. Then you can watch all your 24p material without issues. You only need to do this once, unless you turn CS on again. For some weird reason, they have not fixed this bug with MJC. ​

post #10382 of 11473
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowspawn View Post

My 64" has no buzzing issues, at least as far as I can tell. That makes me happy.

I'm really enjoying it (72 hours on the panel so far), but also struggling a bit to come to terms with it.

It was a choice between this 64" F8500 and a ZT.

What I would REALLY have liked, was my 50" Kuro in a 65" size. But, of course, that was not going to happen.

I'm quite sure that, for my viewing environment, the ZT would have been too dim. I think the 64" F8500 was the best choice.

I'm still struggling to tame it, get it dialed in appropriately. My philosophy is that I want my panel to look like a clear window, and I am looking through that window to see the live action on the other side.

The vividness and sharpness of the F8500 is a little strange to me. I haven't quite found the dial-in to tame it yet.

Don't mistake me, this was the right choice, and given the few choices in 2013 / 2014 I would choose this buzz-less fan-less F8500 again. "Untamed" is better than "too dim for my environment".

But I sure wish I could get my old 50" Kuro picture in 65".

I hear ya!
But that will be only possible when displays & media reach the level of displaying the resolution of the human eye ~10 million pixels (that's even beyond True 4K)
post #10383 of 11473
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowspawn View Post

My philosophy is that I want my panel to look like a clear window, and I am looking through that window to see the live action on the other side.

As a test you my want to throw in my cal settings. I try to attain the same thing as you.
* This is for a 51" TV, YMMV.
post #10384 of 11473
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

As a test you my want to throw in my cal settings. I try to attain the same thing as you.
* This is for a 51" TV, YMMV.

I'm actually planning to do that (although I have a 64") eventually.

I'm going to back into it by doing my own adjustments with the S&M 2 disc, take note of them, and then compare with other people's, probably yours first since they seem to be widely used, and try to converge on the best settings for my 64" set.
post #10385 of 11473
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KONICA TECH View Post

You think these are Hi-End????  Pioneer had a hi-end and it ended them because even 5 years ago at a much higher  MSRP than  the larger sets we have today, they were forced to drop a superior product because of poor sales. Panny is basically doing the same. Both the 8500 and the ZT cannot match a 5 year old Pioneer Elite in my opinion. Wake up, there are hundreds of threads about Sammy's LCD capacitor issues. They far exceeded all other TVs.
There glass or packaging was THE WORST, Any plasma out there has a damage ratio of about 3%, the Pioneers where about 20%, in the end shippers would not touch them, if they did not stop making them, no vender would ship them. Pioneers fail prematurely like everything else. No one is exempt from that. Some units have a history of less failure, but they all fail.
post #10386 of 11473
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRWalker View Post



Truth is that the same caps were used by many including just to name a few: IBM, Dell, HP, Apple, Mitsubishi, and just about every computer motherboard manufacturer. When new all the caps tested good. It was with time that they showed they only had about 10% of the expected life before some failed.

Story here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

The big problem with all electronics when the electronics are including 10V Capacitors on a 12 V board, are that they are then subjected to higher voltages if you're near a transformer substation, to brown outs because you're the farthest away from the substation. Add in the problem of the set being on 3 to 4 hours, and suddenly the power goes off, then right back on, and the incoming meets the outgoing - any weak point is going to blow - 10V Capacitors! Knowing this, and you're NOT using a UPS with your components plugged into the battery side, you're only looking for trouble! I pIcked up Monster Power Centers when they have their occasional massive price breaks, and these in turn are plugged into 750VA UPS. The smaller systems in the house, are all plugged into 550VA UPSs. In other words - Put Protection in place to minimize power issues. If and when I've had PS blow - disassembled the set, removed the PS Board, and took it down to the local electronics repair store. Here, for anywhere from $25 to $100, the blown 10V Capacitors are replaced with newer, larger voltage ones, then I'm back up and running again.
The other issue is, people putting their electronics away into storage for long periods of time. This dries the capacitors out, and they may work to start with, but soon short out. Capacitors need voltage applied every so often to reform them, and keep them from drying out. So if you have old electronics stored, take them out occasionally and plug them in. Like a car that should be turned on periodically and let run to circulate the oil.
Edited by p5browne - 2/16/14 at 8:39am
post #10387 of 11473

Hi guys.  I'm thinking of purchasing a PN60F8500 floor model, how do you find out the total hours used on it? thx

post #10388 of 11473
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowspawn View Post

My 64" has no buzzing issues, at least as far as I can tell. That makes me happy.

I'm really enjoying it (72 hours on the panel so far), but also struggling a bit to come to terms with it.

It was a choice between this 64" F8500 and a ZT.

What I would REALLY have liked, was my 50" Kuro in a 65" size. But, of course, that was not going to happen.

I'm quite sure that, for my viewing environment, the ZT would have been too dim. I think the 64" F8500 was the best choice.

I'm still struggling to tame it, get it dialed in appropriately. My philosophy is that I want my panel to look like a clear window, and I am looking through that window to see the live action on the other side.

The vividness and sharpness of the F8500 is a little strange to me. I haven't quite found the dial-in to tame it yet.

Don't mistake me, this was the right choice, and given the few choices in 2013 / 2014 I would choose this buzz-less fan-less F8500 again. "Untamed" is better than "too dim for my environment".

But I sure wish I could get my old 50" Kuro picture in 65".
52 fTL max light output capability is anything but dim. Coming from a Kuro myself, I wasn't willing to make any sacrifice in black levels. ABL is the only Achilles heel of the ZT and then only on specific content will it stand out (if you are easily bothered by it). Given the natural image that you seek, I am confident you would have been just as happy with the ZT if not more so, but that is neither here nor there.
post #10389 of 11473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post


There glass or packaging was THE WORST, Any plasma out there has a damage ratio of about 3%, the Pioneers where about 20%, in the end shippers would not touch them, if they did not stop making them, no vender would ship them. Pioneers fail prematurely like everything else. No one is exempt from that. Some units have a history of less failure, but they all fail.

And they limited out of state shipping...that must have hurt you. But let's get back to the original question...WHO MAKES A HIGH QUALITY  PLASMA?

post #10390 of 11473
Quote:
Originally Posted by HKPolkMe View Post

Hi guys.  I'm thinking of purchasing a PN60F8500 floor model, how do you find out the total hours used on it? thx

Total Hours - Turn On, press Mute,7,3,7,Enter. MRT is the number of hours. Obviously, you'll need the manual remote.
post #10391 of 11473
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

52 fTL max light output capability is anything but dim. Coming from a Kuro myself, I wasn't willing to make any sacrifice in black levels. ABL is the only Achilles heel of the ZT and then only on specific content will it stand out (if you are easily bothered by it). Given the natural image that you seek, I am confident you would have been just as happy with the ZT if not more so, but that is neither here nor there.

one of the local shops here put the zt60 out on the bright showroom floor(to put it close to the f8500) and it looked fine to me. I mean, under those conditions I didn't think the zt looked better than the f8500, but on it's own, I never thought it looked too dim
post #10392 of 11473
ST, VT and ZT have died a natural economic death, BUT, the F8500 lives on to live another day. Enough with Black Levels arguments! If you own a F8500, and love the PQ - Who Cares!
post #10393 of 11473
I care and anyone in the market for a flagship set should...it's why I would have bought an OLED instead of a ZT (or any other plasma) if there was one available for a comparable price and at a comparable size. But hey, maybe you should petition for moderator position so that you can dictate what is allowed to be discussed here.
Edited by vinnie97 - 2/16/14 at 4:41pm
post #10394 of 11473
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post


52 fTL max light output capability is anything but dim. Coming from a Kuro myself, I wasn't willing to make any sacrifice in black levels. ABL is the only Achilles heel of the ZT and then only on specific content will it stand out (if you are easily bothered by it). Given the natural image that you seek, I am confident you would have been just as happy with the ZT if not more so, but that is neither here nor there.

 

Like you I also own a ZT60 and I have been in the PDP business for more than 25 years.  The only reason I am posting this is that I don't want any members or visitors who are interested in picking up one of the last few ZT60 or VT60 to think they can get 52fL at peak luminance.  It's simply not physically possible to drive a ZT60 hard enough to produce 52fL and maintain the best possible image. 

 

Now I guess if you have a 60" ZT60, that naturally puts out more light than the 65" and you used high panel brightness and measured it with a very small window size then it may be possible for a very small population or 60" ZT60 that can reach 52fL, but the vast majority can't get close and even more importantly if you use the standard window size that CNET, Sound and Vision, Consumer Reports and most calibrators use as the standard window size you would get between 30fL and 35fL and the variance is based on the the particular ZT60 sample as the peak luminance varies from sample to sample.

 

I love my ZT60, but like so many other ZT60 owners I also wish it could produce more light so in normal daytime use it would not look as dim as it does.  I also prefer a brighter image for nighttime viewing so the whites can look brighter and I can get more detail in the high tonal range

 

These are the true facts anything else is just smoke and mirrors that are accomplished with small window size measurements that are not the same measurement standards used by the all professional reviewers and the vast majority of professional calibrators.  Saying you can hit 52fL on a ZT60 is misleading to all who read it.

post #10395 of 11473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pioneer Insider View Post

Saying you can hit 52fL on a ZT60 is misleading to all who read it.

After everything that has been posted clearly explaining a highly rated, top calibrator's method, you are still in denial?

And please don't bother PMing me again about it because I am not wasting anymore time debating this with you again because you are the one misleading.
post #10396 of 11473
How about we stop talking about another make of TV on this thread?

*points to Panasonic threads*

There's your playground, now be good boys and run along.
post #10397 of 11473
I couldn't care less about your credentials, Pioneer "Insider." The most significant limitation is ABL. You are effectively calling the calibrator who achieved this measurement a fraud. If you dislike the dimness you perceive so much, you can always grab an F8500.
post #10398 of 11473

David, Yes and I appreciate our PM exchanges and I have read and researched everything very carefully.  How can it be that David Katzmeier, James Wilcox, Jim Norton, HDTV Test and all of the other calibrators and professional reviewers all say ZT60 can only put out 35fL max.  I've read the posts that you pointed out to me and it's not clearly explained, in fact, I don't see any explanation.

 

Some of it has to do with using high panel brightness and it's questionable if clipping and if BT1886 or a 2.4 gamma can be maintained, but the biggest reason some and I must stress that it's only a small population of ZT60 that can hit higher luminance levels is the very small window size.  And if one calibrator and admittedly a top highly appreciated professional calibrator uses a window size that is less than 1/2 of the standard window size he and everyone else will get much higher peak luminance measurements, but it's truly misleading to use this non standard method of measuring and make such bold claims.

 

Vinny, the calibrator is an excellent top professional calibrator and I appreciate his work.  Especially his results in using high panel brightness.  But he admitted using small windows to make these very high luminance measurements. 

post #10399 of 11473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pioneer Insider View Post

Yes and I appreciate our PM exchanges and I have read and researched everything very carefully.  How can it be that David Katzmeier, James Wilcox, Jim Norton, HDTV Test and all of the other calibrators and professional reviewers all say ZT60 can only put out 35fL max.  I've read the posts that you pointed out to me and it's not clearly explained, in fact, I don't see any explanation.

Some of it has to do with using high panel brightness and it's questionable if clipping and if BT1886 or a 2.4 gamma can be maintained, but the biggest reason some and I must stress that it's only a small population of ZT60 that can hit higher luminance levels is the very small window size.  And if one calibrator and admittedly a top highly appreciated professional calibrator uses a window size that is less than 1/2 of the standard window size he and everyone else will get much higher peak luminance measurements, but it's truly misleading to use this non standard method of measuring and make such bold claims.

Non-standard according to whom? His window size is commonly used. And David Katz who publishes calibration reports with huge greyscale spikes at 50 IRE?!?! Tom Norton thinks the VT60 has color decoding issues (he's wrong and I sent a note to that magazine's editor explaining why he was wrong). These guys are not nearly as thorough as this calibrator who spends hours having calibrated many dozens of 2013 models. I am not aware of any other calibrator who has publically posted calibration reports as this one has.

It was clearly explained. The window size, software - hell - there were two different reports with the published numbers. Yet, you think all of this is fabricated? The numbers don't lie as to what was accomplished in high panel.

Yes, of course, window size dictates light output, but that calibrator's window size is used quite often by other calibrators and produces a wonderful calibration.

But that is irrelevant.

High panel brightness produces A LOT more light output. PERIOD. It doesn't matter how you want to measure it - and with the proper tools and experience - you can produce a damned good calibration in that mode far brighter if you need that kind of output (I certainly don't).
post #10400 of 11473
I remember when we use to discuss the F8500 in this thread. Ahhh, the good old days.
post #10401 of 11473
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post


Non-standard according to whom? His window size is commonly used. And David Katz who publishes calibration reports with huge greyscale spikes at 50 IRE?!?! Tom Norton thinks the VT60 has color decoding issues (he's wrong and I sent a note to that magazine's editor explaining why he was wrong). These guys are not nearly as thorough as this calibrator who spends hours having calibrated many dozens of 2013 models. I am not aware of any other calibrator who has publically posted calibration reports as this one has.

It was clearly explained. The window size, software - hell - there were two different reports with the published numbers. Yet, you think all of this is fabricated? The numbers don't lie as to what was accomplished in high panel.

Yes, of course, window size dictates light output, but that calibrator's window size is used quite often by other calibrators and produces a wonderful calibration.

But that is irrelevant.

High panel brightness produces A LOT more light output. PERIOD. It doesn't matter how you want to measure it - and with the proper tools and experience - you can produce a damned good calibration in that mode far brighter if you need that kind of output (I certainly don't).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

I'll try to answer your questions. Most of them that pertain to the VT/ZT60 I have already answered in that form.

I use a Jeti 1211 reference spectro and an i1D3 colorimeter, which is only used after it is profiled off each individual display by the Jeti 1211. The 1211 was recertified by Jeti less than 6 months ago.

I typically use 5 or 6% size, 18-25% APL window patterns on plasmas. I experiment with different sizes and styles on new plasma models to get a feel for how the display reacts to them. At the shootout they used 10% size conventional windows.

When asking about different light output figures from different calibrators on plasmas, window size is some of the difference, but not all. The VT60 I reviewed put out 44.1 fL with my 5% size APL windows and 42.3 fL with 10% standard windows using the same settings. That's a very minimal difference.

Other factors may be how much WTW headroom is preserved and if the meter is off axis vertically. I do not believe in sacrificing image quality to preserve full WTW headroom out to level 255. The mighty 9G Kuro tended to shave off WTW above about 236 or 237, and I don't think anyone complained from an image quality standpoint. If the plasma is mounted high on the wall and not tilted down, significant light output can be lost on models with strong screen filters.

When they did the shootout, the 60 series was new. As you get to work with a model over and over, you get to learn tricks and techniques that bring out that last elusive bit of performance. In fact, that's how I discovered how to calibrate the VT/ZT60 in panel brightness high with NO white crush (even a bit of WTW headroom) AND a perfect gamma, measured in 5% level increments. It can be done, but it's not intuitive.

The F8500 I reviewed could easily put out 65 fL, and maybe go as high as 80 or 85 fL. The ones I have done after it got from 41.4 fL to 52.3 fL, using the exact same techniques, procedure, and equipment.
post #10402 of 11473
Well, that somewhat defies your original argument in that he achieved 44 versus 42 fTL between the two window sizes on the set he reviewed early last year (in mid panel brightness no doubt). The others are right in that this is the wrong thread for this in-depth discussion. But for some strange reason you really like to focus on what you perceive to be the deficiencies of the Panasonics here. It's a curiosity.
post #10403 of 11473

I won't post here any longer about Panasonic, but please clearly understand that all I did was respond to you sir, who started this posting frenzy.  Why would you say: 

 

"But for some strange reason you really like to focus on what you perceive to be the deficiencies of the Panasonics here. It's a curiosity." 

post #10404 of 11473
^Because this is not the first time I've seen it.

And I most certainly did not start anything. I was responding to the fallacy that the display is too dim.
post #10405 of 11473
PI,

And your point? You just proved what I had been saying: he clearly laid out the method contrary to your accusations.

Yes, the Panasonics can get a lot brighter in high panel mode - and accurate.

I think what you need to do is contact Chad to see if he calibrate your ZT in high panel mode as I think you would be very happy with the results. smile.gif
post #10406 of 11473
Realistically, what's this major difference in black levels in these high end plasma tvs? Reading the last few comments one would think that the difference is night & day. For those advocating for Panasonic is it that an actors coat will be black on your display and grey on Samsung? When I watch a movie am less intrested with black bars & more on the movie itself.
post #10407 of 11473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion Rider View Post

Realistically, what's this major difference in black levels in these high end plasma tvs? Reading the last few comments one would think that the difference is night & day. For those advocating for Panasonic is it that an actors coat will be black on your display and grey on Samsung? When I watch a movie am less intrested with black bars & more on the movie itself.

Since Pioneer abandoned plasma, before their way out, they produced some very good displays.

The quest for "black level" has become (for some) the ultimate measure of a quality PDP. The VT60 and F8500 are the first displays since that meet/exceed the Pioneer Kuros.

The F8500 is black. very very black. And only the Panasonic gets even blacker.

It would take a trained eye, in a completely darkened room, with a still-frame comparison to notice a very slight difference. In favor of the Panasonic.
post #10408 of 11473
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post


Since Pioneer abandoned plasma, before their way out, they produced some very good displays.

The quest for "black level" has become (for some) the ultimate measure of a quality PDP. The VT60 and F8500 are the first displays since that meet/exceed the Pioneer Kuros.

The F8500 is black. very very black. And only the Panasonic gets even blacker.

It would take a trained eye, in a completely darkened room, with a still-frame comparison to notice a very slight difference. In favor of the Panasonic.

Well said

post #10409 of 11473
For once, I don't think there was an argument over black level actually (no matter, the lower the better, especially in low APL scenes..OLEDs aren't getting crowned with superlatives like "best display we've ever reviewed" because the difference is hard to detect). It seemed to be centering on brightness capability.
post #10410 of 11473
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

How about we stop talking about another make of TV on this thread?

*points to Panasonic threads*

There's your playground, now be good boys and run along.
Too true. Vinnie, why do you feel the need to constantly troll/derail F8500 threads? Do you ever watch your beloved TV? Honestly, I am getting sick of it.
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