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Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 36

post #1051 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

I hate when people point out stuff like that to me.


Grandpa had a long gray beard, and he always got a good night's restful sleep. Then one day his little granddaughter said to him; Grandpa, do you sleep with your beard under or outside the bed cover?

For the next several nights he barely slept at all, because of fretting about where his beard should be.

Why is displaying Ice Hockey such a problem? I looked at the Blackhawks V Detroit game on Sunday on a four year old Plasma with poor contrast numbers, and the Ice looked a cloudy grey like Ice does, and the Hawks road Jerseys looked White, as did their Helmets. Ice is not supposed to look a uniform white. Ice cubes are not white. I have attended NHL games in a several arenas, and the ice never looked white. It always looked a cloudy grey, with the Logos showing through from beneath it; and it also developed some micro facets from the skates, as each period progressed, after it had been renewed by the Zamboni equipment.

Hockey dispays more "white\grey\whatever" then most other programing....the ice\snow whatever takes mroe energy to display than a scene with a variety of colors since it uses the entire RGB pixel...I dont know the exact science behind it all but as far as I know thats the basics.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

A white color slide uses red, green, and blue pixels.

Very true...At the same time, you could have all white and not know of individula issues problems with the RGB........The alternating of the colors allows the "working" of all three individually while at the same time getting all 3 to produce white.....
post #1052 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackobots View Post

Well, I have the 64" version of the F8500, but I'm in the middle of a major project and have not had the time to fully analyse it. The PQ is so much better than any other I've seen I could not imagine returning it, BUT I notice everything. It really bothers me when people do not discuss or point out what seems so obvious to me and is clearly an issue with a set.

The E8000 would eliminate all detail from a shaded dark area of the screen by incrementally shutting off the phosphors to achieve a blacker look...and I could plainly see it happening...it was very distracting. To resolve the issue, I had to dramatically lower the light red, green, and blue in white balance, which took away from overall PQ, but it was a lot better than watching the tv making the adjustments. I did not see that issue with the F8500, but I need some alone time with the tv to determine what issues it may have...no kids, wife, or friends. I expect to have a chance to do that this weekend. I promise an honest, non-sugar coated report.

I will say no issues immediately jump out at you. You can get it to look great with minor adjustments to the basic settings. The "soap opera effect" is not like what you get with an LED, it's just great detail...wonderful definition and clarity. As mentioned, everything that's not quite right bothers me. My VT50 has a very nice, stable picture, but it does have what you could call a "standard definition effect" and does not compare with the PQ on the F8500. Very few people said anything about that, but it was obvious to me, right from the beginning...I kept checking my Directv box to make sure I didn't have it set at 480p.

I'm hoping the issues are minor with the F8500, because I really love the picture.

If you dont see any problems dont "look" for them enjoy your set smile.gif sometimes ignorance can be bliss wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsterx View Post

My buzzing is directional, I only hear it when straight on with the TV. I'll probably swap it out for another and see if I get the buzzing again.

Most Plasmas have directional buzz, the amount can differ from set to set and by manufacturer......Some people are also more sensitive to the buzz plasmas produce and others may not hear anything at all......
post #1053 of 11459
^^^^^

See that's the thing -- some things are really obviously wrong with a picture and some things are so subtle I never noticed until I started hanging around here. The fall from grace begins when we become namers, knowers and labelers. Once a person comes to this forum and learns the words and concepts the human mind -- given this new information -- begins to look for evidence so as to support the acceptance of this information.

Ignorance can truly be bliss.
post #1054 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackobots View Post

Well, I have the 64" version of the F8500, but I'm in the middle of a major project and have not had the time to fully analyse it. The PQ is so much better than any other I've seen I could not imagine returning it, BUT I notice everything. It really bothers me when people do not discuss or point out what seems so obvious to me and is clearly an issue with a set.

The E8000 would eliminate all detail from a shaded dark area of the screen by incrementally shutting off the phosphors to achieve a blacker look...and I could plainly see it happening...it was very distracting. To resolve the issue, I had to dramatically lower the light red, green, and blue in white balance, which took away from overall PQ, but it was a lot better than watching the tv making the adjustments. I did not see that issue with the F8500, but I need some alone time with the tv to determine what issues it may have...no kids, wife, or friends. I expect to have a chance to do that this weekend. I promise an honest, non-sugar coated report.

I will say no issues immediately jump out at you. You can get it to look great with minor adjustments to the basic settings. The "soap opera effect" is not like what you get with an LED, it's just great detail...wonderful definition and clarity. As mentioned, everything that's not quite right bothers me. My VT50 has a very nice, stable picture, but it does have what you could call a "standard definition effect" and does not compare with the PQ on the F8500. Very few people said anything about that, but it was obvious to me, right from the beginning...I kept checking my Directv box to make sure I didn't have it set at 480p.

I'm hoping the issues are minor with the F8500, because I really love the picture.

Regarding the F8500 you own, you said, "The PQ is so much better than any other I've seen I could not imagine returning it" They you go on with, "I will say no issues immediately jump out". And then you mention, " I really love the picture"

My question would be: if you love the PQ, problems don't jump out and cannot imagine returnin it, then why go looking for trouble? Why not relax and enjoy a great TV that you love?

I am not being a pain. I am looking for a new set myself and if I found one that I loved, I don't want to meticulously go over the set with a magnify glass until I did discover a minor something that would bug me to death and make me resent that I purchased such a piece of cr-p which I used to love.
post #1055 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

^^^^^

See that's the thing -- some things are really obviously wrong with a picture and some things are so subtle I never noticed until I started hanging around here. The fall from grace begins when we become namers, knowers and labelers. Once a person comes to this forum and learns the words and concepts the human mind -- given this new information -- begins to look for evidence so as to support the acceptance of this information.

Ignorance can truly be bliss.

In regards to TV's, I agree 100%. I have discovered that the more knowledge that I have accumulated on this forum, the more unhappy I am with TV's.
post #1056 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

No buzz on ours either..........Chad even commented the Blu Ray was making more noise.

When i bought my VT50 I had been heavily warned about the buzzing. When I first fired up a show I thought it was buzzing and I kept sticking my head behind it. Only to discover that it was the BR player I was hearing, which I can still only hear if I get real close to the set smile.gif
post #1057 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimShaw View Post

In regards to TV's, I agree 100%. I have discovered that the more knowledge that I have accumulated on this forum, the more unhappy I am with TV's.

The peril of being a video enthusiast.
post #1058 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

^^^^^

See that's the thing -- some things are really obviously wrong with a picture and some things are so subtle I never noticed until I started hanging around here. The fall from grace begins when we become namers, knowers and labelers. Once a person comes to this forum and learns the words and concepts the human mind -- given this new information -- begins to look for evidence so as to support the acceptance of this information.

Ignorance can truly be bliss.

Yes welcome to the AVS OCD problemitis wink.gif coming here often will make you see things you never saw before and may make you unhappy where before you were totally happy....After a while you become "immune" once you learn to step away and not try to pick out certain issues and instead enjoy the device. If these problems are somethign your sensitive to thats another thing, but to go out and look for them, yeah thats something I wont be doing with any set wink.gif .....
post #1059 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Its becasue panels are made with Red Blue and Green Cells that maxe up the pixel. THe slides alternate White, Black, Red Blue, Green to evenly age all of those Cells, if you just left it at one color it wouldnt evenly age.......ABL is part of Plasma tech its a "saftey" feature, each company has a different way of how they handle ABL however, which is why we see differing reports.....
I beleive Kevin Miller mentioned this in his calibration review...What it comes down to is how does perfer thier picture to look.......
I dont watch much hockey, so I think regardles of what set I go with Il be OK, but for Hockey fans, your best bet would be LCD which would remove any chance of ABL......You are correct though, not everyone looks for it or sees it, which is part of the "problem"...FOr those that are sensitive to it, I trlully do feel for you as it would drive me batty if this effected somthing I loved to
watch often....

NO WAY! Why should I switch to LCD? Just because some plasma makers can't get their stuff together? I much prefer plasma, not to mention I can't afford an LCD with comparable PQ.

So why should I have to suffer if I'm a hockey fan? Thankfully I don't, because there are historicaly other plasma options available that don't have these issues at all.
post #1060 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

The peril of being a video enthusiast.

It also costs a lot more money. I used to love an $800 TV. Now, If the set doesn't at least cost $4000 I know it is not going to be that good.
post #1061 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by wattheF View Post

NO WAY! Why should I switch to LCD? Just because some plasma makers can't get their stuff together? I much prefer plasma, not to mention I can't afford an LCD with comparable PQ.

So why should I have to suffer if I'm a hockey fan? Thankfully I don't, because there are historicaly other plasma options available that don't have these issues at all.

I didnt say you HAD to, its mroe of a recommendation to totally avoid ABL, all plasmas have ABL, its a matter of how its implemented thats different. I think you may have taken my words to the extreme. Its not that they dont ahve these issues, its that they are less notceable to you, which is great. You make the choice that makes YOU happy regardless of brand or level of set, Ive always said this....I dont care if you chose a Coby, if youre happy thats all that matters....
post #1062 of 11459
its sad but all tv's are horribly unreliable now and plasma is particularly troublesome.
post #1063 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimShaw View Post

Regarding the F8500 you own, you said, "The PQ is so much better than any other I've seen I could not imagine returning it" They you go on with, "I will say no issues immediately jump out". And then you mention, " I really love the picture"

My question would be: if you love the PQ, problems don't jump out and cannot imagine returnin it, then why go looking for trouble? Why not relax and enjoy a great TV that you love?

I am not being a pain. I am looking for a new set myself and if I found one that I loved, I don't want to meticulously go over the set with a magnify glass until I did discover a minor something that would bug me to death and make me resent that I purchased such a piece of cr-p which I used to love.

Sometimes its better to take a break form the forums when you find a set you like wink.gif The OCD of the members here (while I have no problem with it and understand it) can drive someone batty biggrin.gif
post #1064 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Sometimes its better to take a break form the forums when you find a set you like wink.gif The OCD of the members here (while I have no problem with it and understand it) can drive someone batty biggrin.gif

Believe me if you watch hockey there is no missing this fluctuation issue.
post #1065 of 11459
Well, I know it's a big investment for people. It would really help for them to know the good and the bad about the set before they make such a big decision. I really appreciate when people just lay it on the line and give a no bull analysis. That's the way I feel in business too...I like dealing with people who sincerely tell you the way it is. I think most people come to this forum to help make buying decisions, as well as resolve problems. Plus, if issues are ignored, they can't be solved.

With this tv, everyone in the house enjoys the PQ so much, the chances are minimal that I would return it. I'm not as easy to please as they are though. I want the tv to be the best it can be, so I really want to determine what issues it has and try to fix them...if possible. And also be sure I'm willing to accept the issues can't be fixed. I'm pretty sure the answer is yes for this tv...it's picture is stunning.

It's like a new girl friend, she may seem perfect at first, but once you get to know her better...well, you know what I mean : )
post #1066 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by wattheF View Post

Believe me if you watch hockey there is no missing this fluctuation issue.

I guess its a good thing I dont watch Hockey that often wink.gif
post #1067 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by wattheF View Post

Believe me if you watch hockey there is no missing this fluctuation issue.

I just watched some hockey on it at bb.... Didn't see it...thank god. Pic looked awesome...much better than my 1st experience with it.
post #1068 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightymouseusf View Post

I'm also using a Mac Mini as my HTPC. Ken had me set it to 2.2 yesterday during my calibration

thanks!
post #1069 of 11459
I feel compelled to jump in on the last few posts. I was having the same ABL problems with hockey with my E550 last year. I had to take the TV back, it was driving me totally insane. As the players went from one end of the ice to the other the ABL would kick in, and totally start to make the brightness go up and down. It wasnt stobe lights or anything, and happened on every setting. I ended up buying a LGPM6700. (The UT50 was too dark IMO) The LG is ok, but the Samsung had the best PQ out of all of them, aside from the brightness problems. My hope that that the ABL would be better managed in this years models, as I'm purchasing something new in the next few weeks, albeit I cannot pay $3000, but hope to maybe pickup the Sammy 5500 or a Panny ST60. I was just happy to see others had the same problem as me, and hope Samsung addressed this with this years 2013 models.
post #1070 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Make sure that doesn't mean the hours since it was first plugged in. Some displays give you both the plugged in time and the hours on time.

ok thank you! don't know... the main svc screen only shows one mrt value and don't want to go in there and mess anything up accidentally. so i will just continue with a bit lower contrast and brightness until i hit 'my' 100 or so hrs.
post #1071 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by psychod2 View Post

I feel compelled to jump in on the last few posts. I was having the same ABL problems with hockey with my E550 last year. I had to take the TV back, it was driving me totally insane. As the players went from one end of the ice to the other the ABL would kick in, and totally start to make the brightness go up and down. It wasnt stobe lights or anything, and happened on every setting. I ended up buying a LGPM6700. (The UT50 was too dark IMO) The LG is ok, but the Samsung had the best PQ out of all of them, aside from the brightness problems. My hope that that the ABL would be better managed in this years models, as I'm purchasing something new in the next few weeks, albeit I cannot pay $3000, but hope to maybe pickup the Sammy 5500 or a Panny ST60. I was just happy to see others had the same problem as me, and hope Samsung addressed this with this years 2013 models.

People have reported to see ABL less in the Panasonics, most likely due to the way they process the picture....As with any company you give up one problem for another, you end up deciding which are the ones you can live with\deal with......There are many factors involved and we have mixed reports of seeing it and not seeing it. Youll find a ton of people who have seen it across brands...Some people are more sensitive to it and may notice it more than others, while some may never see it at all.....Hopefully you can find a set that makes you happy and then stay off the forums so you dont start looking for problems that you didnt see to begin with wink.gif
Edited by Ph8te - 4/4/13 at 10:46am
post #1072 of 11459
Ph8te
What's up with the endless typos, Is it you just don't care or is it just your style?eek.gif
post #1073 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Sometimes its better to take a break form the forums when you find a set you like wink.gif The OCD of the members here (while I have no problem with it and understand it) can drive someone batty biggrin.gif

Bingo.. smile.gif
I come here when its time for a new TV and find what's best "for me" then disappear until the next time.. My A850 has given my years of pleasure but the cloudy blacks and flash lighting has bothered me from time to time but not enough to drive me crazy..

That said, I'm heading to Robert's tomorrow for my next best TV, the 51F8500...
post #1074 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonyfan View Post

Ph8te
What's up with the endless typos, Is it you just don't care or is it just your style?eek.gif

most of the time I dont care....I am usually multitasking during the day, so errors increase.....
post #1075 of 11459
Variable Black Levels between sets???

I just got back from the local BB / Magnolia where they had a 51" F8500 on display.
The Black Levels on this set were glowing a very dark gray... not black.
This is a totally different result from what I saw a couple of nights ago on a 64" F8500.

I asked the associate to verify what mode the set was in (there was no remote available for me to play around).
He fiddled with the TV's rear controls and we confirmed it was in Movie Mode... Cell Light 19, Contrast 90, Brightness 45.

I then asked him to put in a Blu Ray I'm very familiar with (Iron Man) so we could adjust Brightness.
We turned the Brightness down to 38...that helped a bit, but Full Black Screen still glowed a very dark gray.

Again, this is nothing like what I saw the other night on a 64" F8500.

Could this just be that the 51" has poorer Black Levels than the 64"?
Or...is there a problem with this particular set?

Anybody else had a chance to look at both the 51" and 64"?
post #1076 of 11459
I'm happy I've never noticed any 'flickering' while watching hockey on my e7000. People were complaining about it, but the only time I ever saw any 'flickering' was the camera flashes.

If I was watching one of the 'classics' hockey games - the ones where they play outside there were no camera flashes. I also watch a lot of snowboarding/skiing videos (Warren Miller films) and never notice any flickering - a lot more 'white' on those videos then in a televised hockey game.

Also, on the televised hockey games that do flicker/flash - if I use the (crappy) comcast interface to pull up the guide, the game goes into a small Picture in Picture window that is maybe a sixth of the screen, so ABL surely isn't in effect as the TV is mostly outputting a (horrible shade of) blue. Yet, the flickering/flashes continue. Just like they do at a real hockey game.

So, at least in my mind, that's all I'm seeing is camera flashes during hockey games. No other primarily white content does this. Not even other hockey games. Just televised indoor hockey.

Unless you guys are seeing something different.

I'm talking about flashes like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpW5ljxd1Ik

Same thing?

If so, people complain about it at the game as well:

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/beyond-basics/222929-photo-strobes-sports-arena-really.html

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100419231333AAdrqZ6
Edited by boondongle - 4/4/13 at 10:56am
post #1077 of 11459
Did you check the Black Optimizer and ECO settings? those 2 things could also be a factor...
post #1078 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Did you check the Black Optimizer and ECO settings? those 2 things could also be a factor...

I assume your comment was for me regarding the Black Levels... right?
Unfortunately I did not check those settings.
post #1079 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptlurking View Post

Variable Black Levels between sets???

I just got back from the local BB / Magnolia where they had a 51" F8500 on display.
The Black Levels on this set were glowing a very dark gray... not black.
This is a totally different result from what I saw a couple of nights ago on a 64" F8500.

I asked the associate to verify what mode the set was in (there was no remote available for me to play around).
He fiddled with the TV's rear controls and we confirmed it was in Movie Mode... Cell Light 19, Contrast 90, Brightness 45.

I then asked him to put in a Blu Ray I'm very familiar with (Iron Man) so we could adjust Brightness.
We turned the Brightness down to 38...that helped a bit, but Full Black Screen still glowed a very dark gray.

Again, this is nothing like what I saw the other night on a 64" F8500.

Could this just be that the 51" has poorer Black Levels than the 64"?
Or...is there a problem with this particular set?

Anybody else had a chance to look at both the 51" and 64"?

When blacks are gray that can sometimes mean that the tv's in RGB Full mode when it should be in limited. ie, could still be a settings issue.
post #1080 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptlurking View Post

Variable Black Levels between sets???

I just got back from the local BB / Magnolia where they had a 51" F8500 on display.
The Black Levels on this set were glowing a very dark gray... not black.
This is a totally different result from what I saw a couple of nights ago on a 64" F8500.

I asked the associate to verify what mode the set was in (there was no remote available for me to play around).
He fiddled with the TV's rear controls and we confirmed it was in Movie Mode... Cell Light 19, Contrast 90, Brightness 45.

I then asked him to put in a Blu Ray I'm very familiar with (Iron Man) so we could adjust Brightness.
We turned the Brightness down to 38...that helped a bit, but Full Black Screen still glowed a very dark gray.

Again, this is nothing like what I saw the other night on a 64" F8500.

Could this just be that the 51" has poorer Black Levels than the 64"?
Or...is there a problem with this particular set?

Anybody else had a chance to look at both the 51" and 64"?

It's also possible that the RGB black level was set incorrectly on the TV. Regular video content uses 16-235, leaving 0-15 and 236-255 unused. Computers (consoles may have an option for this as well) on the other hand will use the full 0-255 range. Basically, if the TV was set to "full" RGB range it'll render the black from a source set up for 16-235 (which is the format all movies and TV shows are in) as a dark grey (value 16).

For someone who doesn't know what they're doing when setting up a TV, the common name for 0-255 mode ("full range") might sound appealing, so it's possible someone at the score screwed it up.

I don't know what this setting is called on the F8500, but it's definitely there. Might be worth going back and seeing if it's set correctly (someone else here will be able to name the setting specifically, I hope). This would fit with lowering the brightness improving the black level, as lowering the brightness will "crush" blacks and in this case bring the level it's rendering as grey (16) closer to 0. When the TV and source are set up properly (and assuming the video content doesn't have messed up black levels, which I've seen before), lowering brightness below the default (50 I assume) shouldn't really have any impact on the black level.
Edited by headlesschickens - 4/4/13 at 11:06am
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