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Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 62

post #1831 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I would also like to see what settings people are using...maybe we can try and determine if certain cell light and contrast settings among other things is causing at least some of the brightness fluctuation/pops. Maybe the people who are not experiencing problems can post them...then those who do have issues can try them on their display for now.

taking only what I have read the most common agreement is that a Cell Light of 16-17 causes the ABL to go into overtime while anything below or above seems to greatly reduce the effect. We do have some outlayers which nothing helped though.......We also have to remember everyone has a different sensitivity to it and in some cases you would never see it if you didnt look for it....

The CalDay Settings used by Kevin in his review seem to work well, but since CalDay and CalNight are ONLY available by going into the service menu it is HIGHLY recommended that most owners stay away from them when changing things themselves as one mistake can brick thier brand new TV and it wouldnt be covered by warranty...
post #1832 of 11459
In the past cell light=20 is the recommended setting at which the action of the ABL circuit is minimized. cell light settings below this level serve no purpose and increase the action of the ABL for a given contrast setting.
post #1833 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

In the past cell light=20 is the recommended setting at which the action of the ABL circuit is minimized. cell light settings below this level serve no purpose and increase the action of the ABL for a given contrast setting.

Isn't the default setting for cell light =20?
post #1834 of 11459
Zoyd,

So, based on cell=20, one would need to control light output by lowering contrast control if needed (example, dark room); has this had any negative effects on the contrast ratio?
post #1835 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

In the past cell light=20 is the recommended setting at which the action of the ABL circuit is minimized. cell light settings below this level serve no purpose and increase the action of the ABL for a given contrast setting.

Totally agree, I'm not sure why ANYONE is changing this. Use the brightness/contrast settings INSTEAD!
post #1836 of 11459
Lowering cell light below 20 is how the energy saving function works, it lowers the peak energy output allowed. So you should always keep it at 20 just like you disable the energy saver functions. Peak white should be adjusted using contrast alone, this has no negative effect on contrast ratio, i.e. cell=20 does not affect mll. The only downside is that if you use the 10 point white balance adjustment with contrast at 80 for example, the settings increments no longer line up with the equivalent stimulus values. 1 will equal 10% but by the time you get to level 9 it will be off by at least 1 step and correspond to 80% stimulus.
post #1837 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd

In the past cell light=20 is the recommended setting at which the action of the ABL circuit is minimized. cell light settings below this level serve no purpose and increase the action of the ABL for a given contrast setting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yamvmax View Post

Totally agree, I'm not sure why ANYONE is changing this. Use the brightness/contrast settings INSTEAD!

Oh for Pete's sake this is what I've been saying since last July.tongue.gif
Cell Light should be at 20 because 20 actually = off.
It was explained last year by a Samsung tech that Cell Light 20 = off and any lower cell settings
were unnecessary and that Contrast, Brightness, Gama should be used to lower brightness.
post #1838 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Lowering cell light below 20 is how the energy saving function works, it lowers the peak energy output allowed. So you should always keep it at 20 just like you disable the energy saver functions. Peak white should be adjusted using contrast alone, this has no negative effect on contrast ratio, i.e. cell=20 does not affect mll. The only downside is that if you use the 10 point white balance adjustment with contrast at 80 for example, the settings increments no longer line up with the equivalent stimulus values. 1 will equal 10% but by the time you get to level 9 it will be off by at least 1 step and correspond to 80% stimulus.

I could see where that would be an issue...how well does the 2pt work in comparison?
post #1839 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I could see where that would be an issue...how well does the 2pt work in comparison?

You can do a decent job with the 2pt., the 10 pt. is more useful for tailoring the transfer function (gamma).
post #1840 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonyfan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd

In the past cell light=20 is the recommended setting at which the action of the ABL circuit is minimized. cell light settings below this level serve no purpose and increase the action of the ABL for a given contrast setting.
Oh for Pete's sake this is what I've been saying since last July.tongue.gif
Cell Light should be at 20 because 20 actually = off.
It was explained last year by a Samsung tech that Cell Light 20 = off and any lower cell settings
were unnecessary and that Contrast, Brightness, Gama should be used to lower brightness.

"20 actually = off" ??? Are you saying cell light at 20 turns ABL off? Could you explain what you mean by cell light 20 = off? I have seen your posts several times with this wording and it just doesn't make sense to me.
post #1841 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by GibsonES300 View Post

"20 actually = off" ??? Are you saying cell light at 20 turns ABL off? Could you explain what you mean by cell light 20 = off? I have seen your posts several times with this wording and it just doesn't make sense to me.

no, he used poor wording. Read my previous statement, cell=20 means the ABL circuit peak energy is at the maximum the TV will allow, any lower setting lowers this peak.
post #1842 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

no, he used poor wording. Read my previous statement, cell=20 means the ABL circuit peak energy is at the maximum the TV will allow, any lower setting lowers this peak.

Thank you. That makes sense.
post #1843 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Lowering cell light below 20 is how the energy saving function works, it lowers the peak energy output allowed. So you should always keep it at 20 just like you disable the energy saver functions. Peak white should be adjusted using contrast alone, this has no negative effect on contrast ratio, i.e. cell=20 does not affect mll. The only downside is that if you use the 10 point white balance adjustment with contrast at 80 for example, the settings increments no longer line up with the equivalent stimulus values. 1 will equal 10% but by the time you get to level 9 it will be off by at least 1 step and correspond to 80% stimulus.

So Zoyd, it you're not using the 10 point, how does that compare with the potential for the best color accuracy as opposed to the 10 point with those errors at a cell light of 20?

Are the errors with a cell light setting of 20 significant enough that you actually wind up with a better calibration using the abbreviated WB controls?
post #1844 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

no, he used poor wording. Read my previous statement, cell=20 means the ABL circuit peak energy is at the maximum the TV will allow, any lower setting lowers this peak.

Then if I'm reading this correctly, it sounds like a cell light of 20 should minimize any popping...at least in theory.
post #1845 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

no, he used poor wording. Read my previous statement, cell=20 means the ABL circuit peak energy is at the maximum the TV will allow, any lower setting lowers this peak.

Thank you zoyd. Could not have said it better myself. biggrin.gif
post #1846 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

So Zoyd, it you're not using the 10 point, how does that compare with the potential for the best color accuracy as opposed to the 10 point with those errors at a cell light of 20?

Are the errors with a cell light setting of 20 significant enough that you actually wind up with a better calibration using the abbreviated WB controls?

no, you can work around the misalignment and get better WB using the 10pt, it's just a pain. And the difference between a 2 pt and 10 pt are not really significant, I use it more for gamma tailoring.

Quote:
Then if I'm reading this correctly, it sounds like a cell light of 20 should minimize any popping...at least in theory.

You still might get less luminance instability by forcing a more aggressive ABL with low values of cell light, in fact that might actually cover more possibilities of this behavior out of all possible scene/APL combinations. But I think the trade-off in full screen and mixed (ANSI type) peak whites would not be worth it. Stick with 20.
post #1847 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Endlesssender, can you tell us which size you have? We can track which size has which, if any, issues.

Hi Ken,

I have a 64" model. I should have specified that.
post #1848 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJA05 View Post

My PN64F8500 was delivered on March 28th. I ran D-Nice's slides over the Easter weekend (since I was away, I figured, why not?). Anyway, when I initially viewed the set, I did notice brightness fluctuations in the background when watching cable. I had all "enhancements" turned off except for black optimizer was set to Dark Room. What cured this issue for me was reducing the cell light from 16-17 to 15 (increasing it to 20 also worked).

Anyway, the picture on this set is now stunning!! I watched Blade Runner last weekend (a film I've seen at least 40 times in theatre, on VHS, laserdisc, DVD and Blu-ray) and the picture was fantastic.

As far as fluctuating black bars, I have never seen this issue.

SJA

I've also been looking for any fluctuation in black bars and have yet to see any. They are amazingly consistent. I too watched Blade Runner the other night and it is indeed nothing short of stunning.
post #1849 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobBeamer View Post

Regarding Kevin Miller's comments on the cinema smooth processing ... are a lot of owners seeing the judder he apparently gets with it on?

I bought the 51" for my bedroom recently, quickly decided it wasn't big enough and got the 60" (now thinking about trading up to the 64") so still putting some hours on it before doing anything other than a few quick setting tweaks but I think cinema smooth looks great with bd content being fed to the tv at the proper frame rate. I personally can't watch it with either of the judder canceler modes engaged without feeling like I'm having a bad flashback so I'm definitely not someone that likes things that look artificially enhanced but I think cinema smooth looks very natural and 'filmy'.

All of my systems are being fed from a central server and fairly high performance htpc hardware with madvr as my renderer (which, when properly configured, is supposed to be about as good as it gets for getting frame/refresh rate dead on) so maybe that has something to do with it.

I have the Elite PRO-70X5FD in my 'big' system and think I like the motion handling on it a little better but the Samsung is pretty darn close. When I first saw the F8500 in person it was at the Crutchfield store in town right after they'd set it up. Not sure how they had it set at the time but did notice some fairly bad judder there (picture was still awesome enough that it got the wheels turning about upgrading the bedroom tv though) so I have seen it. Just not with my config.

This is an interesting subject. I got my setup (Oppo BDP93 into PN64F8500) into a state where it was producing crazy judder, but I can't remember what the intricacies were. It doesn't seem repeatable. I do know this:

Most stuff I like with Cinema Smooth off and with MJC on "Standard", For instance, Blade Runner, Star Wars, LOTR etc looked the best to me with this setting. Totally smooth pans etc and very pleasing motion IMO. However, I really enjoyed 2001 on Cinema Smooth as it matched the very classic looking content. i mean it's all preference, but the bottom line is I've gotten judder reduction smoothing and Cinema Smooth to both work. But I've seen anomalies as well. Here's the weird thing:

When switching between judder/smoothing settings, it's like the TV requires some reset or some time to deal with the content under the new processing. I've seen weird little stutters after changing modes and then restarted the film or waited awhile and they never returned. I wonder if there's some kind of look-ahead or buffering or something that causes the processing to not deal with current incoming streams until it's cleared.
post #1850 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by GibsonES300 View Post

"20 actually = off" ??? Are you saying cell light at 20 turns ABL off? Could you explain what you mean by cell light 20 = off? I have seen your posts several times with this wording and it just doesn't make sense to me.

no, he used poor wording. Read my previous statement, cell=20 means the ABL circuit peak energy is at the maximum the TV will allow, any lower setting lowers this peak.

BUT a brighter cell setting shows the pops up more for people with the symptoms. Catch 22!
post #1851 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJA05 View Post

I watched Blade Runner last weekend (a film I've seen at least 40 times in theatre, on VHS, laserdisc, DVD and Blu-ray) and the picture was fantastic.
There aren't many movies that are worth such a range of devotion. Blade Runner is certainly one of them. biggrin.gif
post #1852 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

I have a hard time focusing on anything but the content. rolleyes.gif

Then why are you here on AVS? Most people on AVS don't actually look at content, we look at problems! biggrin.gif
Fame! I'm here for fame! cool.gif
post #1853 of 11459
If the cell light is maxed out at 20 the screen cannot "pop" to a brighter white because it is at maxed out.
The contrast, brightness, and gamma are used to tone down the light output. That is, if I understand what is being said here.
post #1854 of 11459
Just one quick question - I have had some experience with the D7000 plasma, and returned it because I hated the ABL effects.Though many didn't seem to mind it, I couldn't stand the constant brightness fluctuations. Bright scenes like at a beach were ruined by endless fluctuations in brightness, as the ABL constantly dimmed the bright screen. Even with Cell light at 20. I've avoided plasma ever since. I'm just curious if this set will be more of the same. I see lots of talk here about ABL and how setting it to 20 should minimize the effect. That leads me to believe that it is still an issue that people sensitive to that fluctuation should be concerned with. Am I to understand that even with cell light set to 20 the set will have ABL brightness fluctuations? If so, I can't imagine myself being able to tolerate it. Stability is the single most important thing to me - if the image is constantly "popping" in brightness for one reason or another, I can't enjoy what I'm watching.
post #1855 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

Just one quick question - I have had some experience with the D7000 plasma, and returned it because I hated the ABL effects.Though many didn't seem to mind it, I couldn't stand the constant brightness fluctuations. Bright scenes like at a beach were ruined by endless fluctuations in brightness, as the ABL constantly dimmed the bright screen. Even with Cell light at 20. I've avoided plasma ever since. I'm just curious if this set will be more of the same. I see lots of talk here about ABL and how setting it to 20 should minimize the effect. That leads me to believe that it is still an issue that people sensitive to that fluctuation should be concerned with. Am I to understand that even with cell light set to 20 the set will have ABL brightness fluctuations? If so, I can't imagine myself being able to tolerate it. Stability is the single most important thing to me - if the image is constantly "popping" in brightness for one reason or another, I can't enjoy what I'm watching.

Completely agree. I had to return a 64D8000 for that reason. I cannot go down that path again, but they did eventually issue a firmware update to help that issue.
Edited by DavidHir - 4/9/13 at 1:54pm
post #1856 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Completely agree. I had to return a 64D8000 for that reason.

I got an exchange request granted for my D7000 just recently. In my opinion, there is a huge difference between the brightness pops on the D series and the normal function of the ABL - which very rarely occurs unless you are watching the hockey game.

Normal ABL function is tolerable IMHO - "brightness pops" are not.

I'm hoping that the F8500 is much better in both of these areas but that it has definitely gotten rid of the brightness pops.
post #1857 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

Just one quick question - I have had some experience with the D7000 plasma, and returned it because I hated the ABL effects.Though many didn't seem to mind it, I couldn't stand the constant brightness fluctuations. Bright scenes like at a beach were ruined by endless fluctuations in brightness, as the ABL constantly dimmed the bright screen. Even with Cell light at 20. I've avoided plasma ever since. I'm just curious if this set will be more of the same. I see lots of talk here about ABL and how setting it to 20 should minimize the effect. That leads me to believe that it is still an issue that people sensitive to that fluctuation should be concerned with. Am I to understand that even with cell light set to 20 the set will have ABL brightness fluctuations? If so, I can't imagine myself being able to tolerate it. Stability is the single most important thing to me - if the image is constantly "popping" in brightness for one reason or another, I can't enjoy what I'm watching.


OK Ill try to clear things up for you......

The Cell Light @ 20 should in theory lower the chances and occurences of the ABL function, we ahve seen differing reports from confirmation to those that ahve it no matter what setting they use.....Besides Cell light there are a few more settings taht may affect the ABL function and lessen the impact on content......

So far reports have shown ABL to be less agressive then inprevious years and only showing up with certain material......With the varieed settings everyone uses its a toss up on how to best minimize them at this time (still early)....

ABL will neer go away form Plasma its part tech.....All sets have it, its just a matter of how it functions that is the differencce, (gradual or immediate)......

If you are sensitive to the ABL fluctuations this may not be the set for you at this time, people seem to be happier with the way Panasonic implements thier ABL function and then there is also LCD........

Did you stick around long enough to get the Fbr fixed on your D series?

Also, what was occuring with the D series seems to have been much more severe then what we are seeing here, of course people ahve different sensitivites to this so each person will ahve thier own experience based on settings and sensitivity to the anomoly.........
post #1858 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMUdukes07 View Post

I got an exchange request granted for my D7000 just recently. In my opinion, there is a huge difference between the brightness pops on the D series and the normal function of the ABL - which very rarely occurs unless you are watching the hockey game.

Normal ABL function is tolerable IMHO - "brightness pops" are not.

I'm hoping that the F8500 is much better in both of these areas but that it has definitely gotten rid of the brightness pops.

Right. I have a Panasonic 65ST30 and have never been bothered by ABL or brightness fluctuations. My next display is going to have to function accordingly.
post #1859 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

There aren't many movies that are worth such a range of devotion. Blade Runner is certainly one of them. biggrin.gif

Agreed, and watching the Final Cut again on the Samsung made me appreciate Ridley Scott's vision even more.
post #1860 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

OK Ill try to clear things up for you......

The Cell Light @ 20 should in theory lower the chances and occurences of the ABL function, we ahve seen differing reports from confirmation to those that ahve it no matter what setting they use.....Besides Cell light there are a few more settings taht may affect the ABL function and lessen the impact on content......

So far reports have shown ABL to be less agressive then inprevious years and only showing up with certain material......With the varieed settings everyone uses its a toss up on how to best minimize them at this time (still early)....

ABL will neer go away form Plasma its part tech.....All sets have it, its just a matter of how it functions that is the differencce, (gradual or immediate)......

If you are sensitive to the ABL fluctuations this may not be the set for you at this time, people seem to be happier with the way Panasonic implements thier ABL function and then there is also LCD........

Did you stick around long enough to get the Fbr fixed on your D series?

Also, what was occuring with the D series seems to have been much more severe then what we are seeing here, of course people ahve different sensitivites to this so each person will ahve thier own experience based on settings and sensitivity to the anomoly.........

Thank you very much for the reply and explanation.

I haven't had the D7000 for over a year - I returned within 30 days because I couldn't tolerate the brightness pops in bright scenes. Since I've moved onto LCD, but I've not been treated kindly by that tech either honestly. I had bought the ES7500 LED LCD last year by Samsung, and I've spent months with repair issues, and I finally got a full refund several weeks ago after months of frustration.

I'm likely sticking to LCD, much as I hate some of the issues with those sets too, but honestly, since I'm very sensitive to image stability, I think these ABL issues will still be an issue for me. Which is unfortunate, because plasma has a great image. Shame that they can't allow us to decide if we want ABL engaged.
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