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Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 63

post #1861 of 11445
ok, so there is black tone and black optimizer. can anyone help me as to when i should use/change these? thanks!
post #1862 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMUdukes07 View Post

I got an exchange request granted for my D7000 just recently. In my opinion, there is a huge difference between the brightness pops on the D series and the normal function of the ABL - which very rarely occurs unless you are watching the hockey game.

Normal ABL function is tolerable IMHO - "brightness pops" are not.

I'm hoping that the F8500 is much better in both of these areas but that it has definitely gotten rid of the brightness pops.

Did Samsung offer to replace your unit with the F8500? Or did you have to pay more for this? I am having issues with my PN60E7000 and was offered a PN60F5500, however I wanted the F8500
post #1863 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljmart View Post

ok, so there is black tone and black optimizer. can anyone help me as to when i should use/change these? thanks!

Not sure on "when" but from doing a small search people usually ahve Black Tone set to either Native or off and Black Optimizer set to Dark Room.......I am sure there will be a few more comments on tis though......
post #1864 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljmart View Post

ok, so there is black tone and black optimizer. can anyone help me as to when i should use/change these? thanks!
I have my black tone set to the default setting and black optimizer set to dark room.
post #1865 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_b View Post

I have to agree that the picture quality on this set is really nice. Too bad I have the brightness pops that sounds like it is worse then what others see. It is very distracting and I see it in all kinds of programming, which is why I have to send the set back. If the ZT60 is the reference quality tv that it is being advertised at and comes in slightly better then the 8500, I can't wait to see it's picture quality.

That's all I need to hear to walk away now from this set and stick with LCD for better or worse. I was going nuts with the brightness pops from my old D7000 and I will not do it all over again. Owners and pro reviewers love to talk about how great these plasmas are but hate to admit that they still suffer form these kinds of issues. Yes, the image is spectacular. So is the LCD F8000 - I've seen it up close. But both technologies have their serious issues. The brightness pops on these sets is something I just can't live with.
post #1866 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

That's all I need to hear to walk away now from this set and stick with LCD for better or worse. I was going nuts with the brightness pops from my old D7000 and I will not do it all over again. Owners and pro reviewers love to talk about how great these plasmas are but hate to admit that they still suffer form these kinds of issues. Yes, the image is spectacular. So is the LCD F8000 - I've seen it up close. But both technologies have their serious issues. The brightness pops on these sets is something I just can't live with.

certainly understandable....unfortunately we have to pick which poison to go with.rolleyes.gif
post #1867 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridaman View Post

I have my black tone set to the default setting and black optimizer set to dark room.

Same here although I've experimented with setting Back Tone to "Darker" and sometimes think I prefer it. I'm currently torn.
post #1868 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post

I decided to set my verizon fios stb to output "native" video (set this up in the stb's service menu) and let my 8500 do all up-conversions of the video signal. This reduces unessesary/redundant video processing between the stb and your tv, but introduces another artifact that may be undesirable to some. When changing from, say a 720p broadcast to a 1080i broadcast (i.e. abc to nbc), my 8500 will blank its display and audio (for 2 seconds or so), before displaying the new channel. Upon display of the new channel, my 8500 will show the native video resolution of the broadcast channel in the upper left corner. Changing to a different channel with the same native video output creates no delay. Is this delay consistent (i.e. slower, faster , nonexistent) with most tv's during a video resolution change from one channel broadcast to another?

Same thing happened with my ES7500 last year - I ended up going back into the hidden menu of my FiOS box and disabling native resolution because it was too annoying watching the screen blank out for several seconds every time I got to a channel with a different resolution.
post #1869 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

certainly understandable....unfortunately we have to pick which poison to go with.rolleyes.gif

Yup , that's it pretty much. I'm not thrilled with either technology. They both have some very annoying quirks.
post #1870 of 11445
From these posts I think I have an idea what ABL is, kind of how it works and kind of why it's there. What I don't understand is why plasma manufactures feel it's necessary to include this technology. Does it reduce energy consumption over the period of a year to make it worth decreasing the overall PQ of the display?
post #1871 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

That's all I need to hear to walk away now from this set and stick with LCD for better or worse. I was going nuts with the brightness pops from my old D7000 and I will not do it all over again. Owners and pro reviewers love to talk about how great these plasmas are but hate to admit that they still suffer form these kinds of issues. Yes, the image is spectacular. So is the LCD F8000 - I've seen it up close. But both technologies have their serious issues. The brightness pops on these sets is something I just can't live with.

eagle I would suggest seeing the set in person and bringing test material (and a remote in case they dont have one) so you can change settings and see it for yourself......Mark seems to be on the outskirts of what has been reported and may not be what you see in person.....While others have reported seeeing teh ABL funtion take action, it has been no where near the trouble mark was having with his set. I would take the good and bad reports and see the set for myself. I know I was worried taht I might see them when I went to see the set, but all of the difficencies I saw were from teh source as they were on all of the sets.

This is JMOHO though as the last word should be your eyes seeing the set in person...so many things can get easily over played (both good and bad) here on the forums....

I wish you luck though in your persuit for a new TV whichever one you choose smile.gif

BTW I don't think we have tried to hide anything here, in fact we have been quite open to the issues that have come up wink.gif
Edited by Ph8te - 4/9/13 at 3:45pm
post #1872 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

From these posts I think I have an idea what ABL is, kind of how it works and kind of why it's there. What I don't understand is why plasma manufactures feel it's necessary to include this technology. Does it reduce energy consumption over the period of a year to make it worth decreasing the overall PQ of the display?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1176059/what-is-abl

http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/prod_development/revisions/downloads/tv_vcr/Weber_Presentation.pdf

Basically it prevents the set from going into meltdown wink.gif
post #1873 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

eagle I would suggest seeing the set in person and bringing test material (and a remote in case they dont have one) so you can change settings and see it for yourself......Mark seems to be on the outskirts of what has been reported and may not be what you see in person.....While others have reported seeeing teh ABL funtion take action, it has been no where near the trouble mark was having with his set. I would take the good and bad reports and see the set for myself. I know I was worried taht I might see them when I went to see the set, but all of the difficencies I saw were from teh source as they were on all of the sets.

This is JMOHO though as the last word should be your eyes seeing the set in person...so many things can get easily over played (both good and bad) here on the forums....

I wish you luck though in your persuit for a new TV whichever one you choose smile.gif

BTW I think we ahvent tried to hide anything here, in fact we have been quiite open to the issues that have come up wink.gif

"BTW I think we ahvent tried to hide anything here, in fact we have been quiite open to the issues that have come up"

agree...and thank god it's not like the st60 thread where it's about 70% talks of lag time....good grief...no offense to gamers I know lag time is very important, but to bottleneck the thread up like that is ridiculous.
post #1874 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

That's all I need to hear to walk away now from this set and stick with LCD for better or worse. I was going nuts with the brightness pops from my old D7000 and I will not do it all over again. Owners and pro reviewers love to talk about how great these plasmas are but hate to admit that they still suffer form these kinds of issues. Yes, the image is spectacular. So is the LCD F8000 - I've seen it up close. But both technologies have their serious issues. The brightness pops on these sets is something I just can't live with.

Definitely a pragmatic problem when it comes to choosing a tv. I will say on the VT50 that I have only noticed the ABL kicking in literally once on an extended slow panning shot into the sun. Of course take my singular view with a grain of salt and the understanding that I come from the 'film' camp that likes to watch only movies if the tv is on and everyone else in the household would never notice it. Also I use calibrator settings that actually decrease the Ft.L output which, from the way I understand it, mitigates ABL even more while still providing more 'pop' than defaults. I don't watch hockey though or play video games biggrin.gif
post #1875 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post


Basically it prevents the set from going into meltdown wink.gif

Just a minor detail. biggrin.gif
post #1876 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

You can do a decent job with the 2pt., the 10 pt. is more useful for tailoring the transfer function (gamma).

I only want about 33 fl as most of my viewing is in a dark room and that's what I have my calibrated 65ST30 putting out and it's perfect for me.

Won't the contrast have to be dramatically lowered on the F8500 with cell light at 20? I cannot see how this won't hurt the contrast ratio to some extent, but maybe I missing something.
post #1877 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I only want about 33 fl as most of my viewing is in a dark room and that's what I have my calibrated 65ST30 putting out and it's perfect for me.

Won't the contrast have to be dramatically lowered on the F8500 with cell light at 20? I cannot see how this won't hurt the contrast ratio to some extent, but maybe I missing something.

Your best ANSI contrast ratio will be obtained with cell light at 20 for any given contrast setting.
post #1878 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Your best ANSI contrast ratio will be obtained with cell light at 20 for any given contrast setting.

Which leads to the question; why does Samsung not just lock it in at 20? What purpose does it serve to provide the option for owners to lower cell light to any other level?
post #1879 of 11445
Could you consider (putting it out there) that because this set is SO bright, a lower cell brightness is inevitable?

No matter what I set contrast, brightness and gamma to, cell at 20 is too harsh and unnatural.

Possibly a proper calibration would make it work well on 20, but I can't do it with standard control, sorry.

Ready to throw the rule book out anyone?!
post #1880 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Which leads to the question; why does Samsung not just lock it in at 20? What purpose does it serve to provide the option for owners to lower cell light to any other level?

ECO options, which then lead to being able to say 'energy star' (although IDK if the f8500 is energy star compliant) and advertise a lower cost per year typical electrical cost. Basically helps it close the deal on the showroom floor when its next to another similar plasma and someone factors that type of comparison in.
post #1881 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

Could you consider (putting it out there) that because this set is SO bright, a lower cell brightness is inevitable?

No matter what I set contrast, brightness and gamma to, cell at 20 is too harsh and unnatural.

Possibly a proper calibration would make it work well on 20, but I can't do it with standard control, sorry.

Ready to throw the rule book out anyone?!

So your watching in a dark or very dark room.
Even at gamma -3, contrast 50% or less, brightness 50% or less?
post #1882 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

ECO options, which then lead to being able to say 'energy star' (although IDK if the f8500 is energy star compliant) and advertise a lower cost per year typical electrical cost. Basically helps it close the deal on the showroom floor when its next to another similar plasma and someone factors that type of comparison in.

I doubt if it is that simple a reason. I notice that Kevin Miller at TweakTV has Calibrated Cell 20 for CAL-Day , and has lowered it to Cell 13 for CAl-Night. He also has set Cinema to Cell 16, and has Movie 3D set to Cell 20.
post #1883 of 11445
Well yes, when I say harsh, the 'contrast ratio' if I can put it that way becomes over saturated.
With cell at 20 and a low contrast and brightness, bright areas are too bright against their natural backgrounds in an unnatural sense.

I'm not sure how else I can describe it.

I'm just about living with cell at 18 right now, but even then some scenes are completely unnatural.
post #1884 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I would also like to see what settings people are using...maybe we can try and determine if certain cell light and contrast settings among other things is causing at least some of the brightness fluctuation/pops. Maybe the people who are not experiencing problems can post them...then those who do have issues can try them on their display for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

taking only what I have read the most common agreement is that a Cell Light of 16-17 causes the ABL to go into overtime while anything below or above seems to greatly reduce the effect. We do have some outlayers which nothing helped though.......We also have to remember everyone has a different sensitivity to it and in some cases you would never see it if you didnt look for it....

The CalDay Settings used by Kevin in his review seem to work well, but since CalDay and CalNight are ONLY available by going into the service menu it is HIGHLY recommended that most owners stay away from them when changing things themselves as one mistake can brick thier brand new TV and it wouldnt be covered by warranty...

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Lowering cell light below 20 is how the energy saving function works, it lowers the peak energy output allowed. So you should always keep it at 20 just like you disable the energy saver functions. Peak white should be adjusted using contrast alone, this has no negative effect on contrast ratio, i.e. cell=20 does not affect mll. The only downside is that if you use the 10 point white balance adjustment with contrast at 80 for example, the settings increments no longer line up with the equivalent stimulus values. 1 will equal 10% but by the time you get to level 9 it will be off by at least 1 step and correspond to 80% stimulus.

zoyd,
Good info... That makes sense. Do we know for sure that the f8500 (new cell structure compared to the E's D's, etc.) are the same 'cell light 20 = lowest possible abl action'. I guess its the same as its been in years past. This is my first samsung, so I dont know. Im going to have to experiment on the 2pt & 10pt, w/cell@20.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonyfan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd

In the past cell light=20 is the recommended setting at which the action of the ABL circuit is minimized. cell light settings below this level serve no purpose and increase the action of the ABL for a given contrast setting.
Oh for Pete's sake this is what I've been saying since last July.tongue.gif
Cell Light should be at 20 because 20 actually = off.
It was explained last year by a Samsung tech that Cell Light 20 = off and any lower cell settings
were unnecessary and that Contrast, Brightness, Gama should be used to lower brightness.

Yes, for the E's, D's, etc. Do we know this for sure on the F's. Im just trying to find what settings to do, so that it eliminates/lowest possible pops. Without screwing up the colors, etc. With your Eseries?, when you had cell@20 what was your contrast # at? to keep it the same overall brightness. Thanks, eh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljmart View Post

ok, so there is black tone and black optimizer. can anyone help me as to when i should use/change these? thanks!

I would not use black tone, it makes the blacks blacker and loses details in the black areas.
Use black optimizer, it makes the blacks wicked and keeps the details.
post #1885 of 11445
tone-off (you lose detail in the blacks when on)
optimizer-dark room
post #1886 of 11445
Has anyone else noticed the inconsistency in Kevin's calibration reports? The Cal-night is off.


Movie mode: Cell =16, Contrast = 95, gamma set at 0 yields peak white of 177 cd/m^2 or about 51 ftL

Cal-day mode: Cell = 20, Contrast = 95, gamma set at 0 yields peak white of 212 cd/m^2 or about 61 ftL

Cal-night mode: Cell = 13, Contrast = 95. gamma set at -2 yields peak white of 212 cd/m^2 or 61 ftL <--???


(My personal preference is peak white about 30 ftL for a very dark night viewing environment.)


EDIT:: It's obvious that the day mode report accidentally was used with the night settings. Still would be nice to see the real night report.

Larry
Edited by LarryInRI - 4/9/13 at 6:03pm
post #1887 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

I doubt if it is that simple a reason. I notice that Kevin Miller at TweakTV has Calibrated Cell 20 for CAL-Day , and has lowered it to Cell 13 for CAl-Night. He also has set Cinema to Cell 16, and has Movie 3D set to Cell 20.

I believe you are correct that there's more than one use and reason, but I still believe that when it comes to energy usage there is competition in the plasma world to be more efficient, or at least seen so, and its by allowing control of settings like this that they can claim those efficiencies. They also need to have these features so they can leverage them when they go into areas such as the EU that have stricter energy policies.
post #1888 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinson ------ View Post

tone-off (you lose detail in the blacks when on)
optimizer-dark room

lose detail on tone, ok great thanks! thats what i have them on but was just curious what effects they have.
post #1889 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Which leads to the question; why does Samsung not just lock it in at 20? What purpose does it serve to provide the option for owners to lower cell light to any other level?
Even a better option would be to eliminate that setting completely.
post #1890 of 11445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinson ------ View Post



zoyd,
Good info... That makes sense. Do we know for sure that the f8500 (new cell structure compared to the E's D's, etc.) are the same 'cell light 20 = lowest possible abl action'. I guess its the same as its been in years past. This is my first samsung, so I dont know. Im going to have to experiment on the 2pt & 10pt, w/cell@20.
.

Or you could set cell light to zero. I bet that eliminates the ABL entirely.

I don't see the logic that setting cell light at max will minimize brightness fluctuation. Seems to me the ABL kicks in when the combination of picture level + cell light + contrast exceeds some threshold. You can set cell light at max and contrast low, or set contrast at max and cell light low, and it should (seems to me) come out about the same as far as the ABL is concerned. That there happens to be more fluctuation at 16-17 is probably a bug.

Someone said putting it at 20 keeps the set from getting brighter, ie "pop". But I don't think the pop is from the set getting brighter. It's only getting back to your desired cell light + contrast after dimming, ie popping DOWN, per the ABL threshold.
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