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Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 9

post #241 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Is that Kevin Miller?

EDIT: Sorry. Of course it is. rolleyes.gif

Yup.

I'd still like to hear if the ABL on the 8500 is less aggressive than other plasmas. That would be great.
post #242 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinger View Post

Great question... Ice rinks always looked dull-grey to me on plasmas compared to LCDs, same goes with snow scenes and lord knows I know what snow looks like this winter ... Again I was always told that was a brightness issue..

That's actually the ABL kicking in and that's what I was just referring to in my prior post. If the ABL is less aggressive on the 8500, expect scenes like you described to have greater realism. smile.gif
post #243 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Drat. *marks off Kuro replacement list* No apologies, blacks at least as deep as 9G is my #1 priority. Well, onto the ZT60 measurements!

C'mon Vinnie, you know you'll never admit there's anything better than your Kuro regardless of measurements. wink.gif

The brightness of the 8500 will put to your Kuro to shame and, as a result, it will be a much more usable display in other than darkened environments.

What was the Kuro MLL, I don't recall. Whatever it was, it couldn't have been visually darker to any significant degree.
post #244 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Yup.

I'd still like to hear if the ABL on the 8500 is less aggressive than other plasmas. That would be great.

This is just an educated assumption, but wouldn't the fact that it's a brighter plasma automatically make the ABL less aggressive? I mean, it wouldn't be able to achieve a high level of brightness in the first place if it didn't have a more relaxed ABL, right? Maybe I'm over simplifying it though.
post #245 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

This is just an educated assumption, but wouldn't the fact that it's a brighter plasma automatically make the ABL less aggressive? I mean, it wouldn't be able to achieve a high level of brightness in the first place if it didn't have a more relaxed ABL, right? Maybe I'm over simplifying it though.

Yes, pretty much. But I suspect that even with the higher brightness, very bright scenes such as hockey games, snow covered fields etc. will still show evidence of the ABL throttling things back. I'm just hoping there will be less throttling. Obviously if the panel is brighter to begin with, the gap between the full-screen bright scenes and the already brighter panel luminance, will be narrower. So there should be less need for the ABL to throttle back.

Still, I'd like to hear observations on this. Robert has already characterized the whites on this panel as being 'whiter' than a typical panel. That's already a plus and, IMO, a significant advance over my Pro 151 and its creamier whites.
post #246 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

This is just an educated assumption, but wouldn't the fact that it's a brighter plasma automatically make the ABL less aggressive? I mean, it wouldn't be able to achieve a high level of brightness in the first place if it didn't have a more relaxed ABL, right? Maybe I'm over simplifying it though.

What you and Ken are saying is a bit over my head but I think I like what your saying lol..
The brighter F8500 could mean less aggressive abl resulting in the kind of whites I'm used to and like...... yes??
post #247 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinger View Post

What you and Ken are saying is a bit over my head but I think I like what your saying lol..
The brighter F8500 could mean less aggressive abl resulting in the kind of whites I'm used to and like...... yes??

Yes, hopefully that's what Samsung has been able to achieve. smile.gif
post #248 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

C'mon Vinnie, you know you'll never admit there's anything better than your Kuro regardless of measurements. wink.gif

The brightness of the 8500 will put to your Kuro to shame and, as a result, it will be a much more usable display in other than darkened environments.

What was the Kuro MLL, I don't recall. Whatever it was, it couldn't have been visually darker to any significant degree.
You were probably speaking in jest, but that's just not true about what I'll admit. My primary viewing is in the dark. Max brightness is not what I care about. I'd be happy at around 0.0005, which I believe is where the 9G measures.

EDIT: Researching known BL values, it looks like the average MLL of the 9G Elite (141FD) is actually 0.001 (with D-Nice able to achieve 0.0005 and lower on some panels). I'm not really qualifying those lower numbers since only one person is known to be able to pull it off using some proprietary method. It looks like this Samsung might be a match actually. We are talking about minutiae to be fair, but I watch for the sake of escapism, in a dark setting, with hardly any other usage of the panel. The deeper the blacks, the more escapist and immersive the experience.
Edited by vinnie97 - 3/23/13 at 9:22pm
post #249 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Yes, pretty much. But I suspect that even with the higher brightness, very bright scenes such as hockey games, snow covered fields etc. will still show evidence of the ABL throttling things back. I'm just hoping there will be less throttling. Obviously if the panel is brighter to begin with, the gap between the full-screen bright scenes and the already brighter panel luminance, will be narrower. So there should be less need for the ABL to throttle back.

Still, I'd like to hear observations on this. Robert has already characterized the whites on this panel as being 'whiter' than a typical panel. That's already a plus and, IMO, a significant advance over my Pro 151 and its creamier whites.

I would think the ABL works like a compressor in audio where there is attack, release, ratio and threshold controls. If the ABL works similarly, then the threshold at which the ABL kicks in will have to be raised to allow a higher level of 'brightness' through before the ABL kicks in(attack) and lets go(release) in order to enjoy this new 'brightness'. It would be interesting to know how ABL actually works.

This tv looks promising, I can't wait for the results. I am starting to get excited after selling my KRP500M:mad:. I have a feeling by next year, I will have no regrets or sadness to have sold it.biggrin.gif
post #250 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by agkss View Post

Me too. Bye bye F8500.

+1
post #251 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwasie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Yes, pretty much. But I suspect that even with the higher brightness, very bright scenes such as hockey games, snow covered fields etc. will still show evidence of the ABL throttling things back. I'm just hoping there will be less throttling. Obviously if the panel is brighter to begin with, the gap between the full-screen bright scenes and the already brighter panel luminance, will be narrower. So there should be less need for the ABL to throttle back.

Still, I'd like to hear observations on this. Robert has already characterized the whites on this panel as being 'whiter' than a typical panel. That's already a plus and, IMO, a significant advance over my Pro 151 and its creamier whites.

I would think the ABL works like a compressor in audio where there is attack, release, ratio and threshold controls. If the ABL works similarly, then the threshold at which the ABL kicks in will have to be raised to allow a higher level of 'brightness' through before the ABL kicks in(attack) and lets go(release) in order to enjoy this new 'brightness'. It would be interesting to know how ABL actually works.

This tv looks promising, I can't wait for the results. I am starting to get excited after selling my KRP500M:mad:. I have a feeling by next year, I will have no regrets or sadness to have sold it.biggrin.gif
I don't seem to know much about brightness limiting features. Can ABL be turned off?
post #252 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

I don't seem to know much about brightness limiting features. Can ABL be turned off?

I thought ABL was necessary to protect the panel. That's why others and I are wondering if it can at least be less 'sensitive' without much risk by means of new tech ideas.
post #253 of 11565
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Maybe the 64" will go deeper given how previous model years behaved,
We will see in a day or so when Chad B gets here, e-mail him and tell him to hurry wink.gif This is exactly why we are only doing the 64 "
post #254 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwasie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

I don't seem to know much about brightness limiting features. Can ABL be turned off?

I thought ABL was necessary to protect the panel. That's why others and I are wondering if it can at least be less 'sensitive' without much risk by means of new tech ideas.
In what sense protected?
post #255 of 11565
Further in my line of reactionary questions is can the F8500 function as a display with all Smart Internet related activities being turned off? eek.gif
Edited by htwaits - 3/23/13 at 9:40pm
post #256 of 11565
Not sure what you mean by turn them off, you might ahve to explain thate....I dont think i ahve read anywhere that the TV requires an internet connection to work, in which case there would be no internet features to turn "on"
post #257 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Not sure what you mean by turn them off, you might ahve to explain thate....I dont think i ahve read anywhere that the TV requires an internet connection to work, in which case there would be no internet features to turn "on"
That's what I assume to, and it's true with my current OPPO player. I've never had a Smart TV with a Smart Hub. Let's hope your assumption is right. I agree it would be strange if you had to have an Internet connection to buy a Samsung TV. wink.gif
post #258 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

We will see in a day or so when Chad B gets here, e-mail him and tell him to hurry wink.gif This is exactly why we are only doing the 64 "
If it goes deeper, all the better.

I also have to take back what I said before. 0.0014 is the average black level of the 9G panels (including the 111FD, which I own). This marvel is already matching (and slightly beating?) that. This draws a line in the sand for the ZT60 to overcome. This qualifies the Samsung as a worthy upgrade to anyone who doesn't have their Kuro calibrated by D-Nice (and even that is a long shot since not every panel can benefit from his proprietary technique wink.gif). For someone like me who wants to move up in size, it's shaping up to be a no-brainer.

Again, bring on the ZT60 measurements (along with the 64" version of this panel). biggrin.gif
Edited by vinnie97 - 3/23/13 at 9:55pm
post #259 of 11565
I've never seen 0.0014 before. The 9G's are always known to be 0.001. Which it looks like the Samsung equals.
post #260 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

That's what I assume to, and it's true with my current OPPO player. I've never had a Smart TV with a Smart Hub. Let's hope your assumption is right. I agree it would be strange if you had to have an Internet connection to buy a Samsung TV. wink.gif

If thats what you meant then no, you do not need an internet connection for the TV to work, you only need it to access the "SmartTV" functions and do firmware updates over the network (updates can be done over USB I believe as well). Internet connectivity is not a must with a TV and I dont think it will be anytime soon.......
post #261 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

I've never seen 0.0014 before. The 9G's are always known to be 0.001. Which it looks like the Samsung equals.
Could be a round-off? I just did an "FTL" query search in the 9G Elite thread, and Jeff Meier of AccuCal reported that value on multiple Kuros (post made in 2011): http://www.avsforum.com/t/1039269/the-official-pioneer-9g-elite-kuro-owners-discussion-thread/26130#post_20396555

Will have to look for more corroboration, but that's not far removed from 0.001.
post #262 of 11565
Sounds like the 8500 is a worthy upgrade for Kuro owners!
post #263 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Could be a round-off? I just did an "FTL" query search in the 9G Elite thread, and Jeff Meier of AccuCal reported that value on multiple Kuros (post made in 2011): http://www.avsforum.com/t/1039269/the-official-pioneer-9g-elite-kuro-owners-discussion-thread/26130#post_20396555

Will have to look for more corroboration, but that's not far removed from 0.001.

I guess. Or maby 0.001 is a full black measurement? I'll be honest and say i don't 100% understand how ftl is measured.

But every review i've read always says the kuros black level of 0.001.

Either way, the F8500 is around those levels. You can get your bigger TV now. smile.gif

Oh, i forgot about the ZT60. Decision, decisions.
post #264 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Yes, pretty much. But I suspect that even with the higher brightness, very bright scenes such as hockey games, snow covered fields etc. will still show evidence of the ABL throttling things back. I'm just hoping there will be less throttling. Obviously if the panel is brighter to begin with, the gap between the full-screen bright scenes and the already brighter panel luminance, will be narrower. So there should be less need for the ABL to throttle back.

Still, I'd like to hear observations on this. Robert has already characterized the whites on this panel as being 'whiter' than a typical panel. That's already a plus and, IMO, a significant advance over my Pro 151 and its creamier whites.

From what I understand, ABL is designed to manage power consumption of the panel. Since Samsung has not touted any significant reduction in power usage, I think we can infer the ABL still needs to be just as "aggressive". So for example, a full white screen at max cell light on the f8500 would draw roughly the same voltage as it does on the e8000 without ABL; therefore you need to reduce it to 90% white or whatever. But, because the f8500 is just brighter thanks to the new pixel structure (I think), 90% white will look whiter on it than it does on the e8000.

On the other hand, if they are achieving higher light output in part by just giving it more power, then the ABL would need to be even more aggressive. I think the f8500 still comes out ahead at the end, though.

That almost makes sense smile.gif

In any event, I think the ABL is one of those bugaboos that people obsess over, not without cause, but probably more than warranted. The instances where I am conscious of the ABL are far and few in between, the most obvious and frequent being the end of commercial logo with all white background, something I just learn to ignore (it's a commercial, don't think about it, ommmm, I am serene). Otherwise, 95% of the time, when I am watching a bright scene I am not thinking "this should be brighter." In fact, if the ABL is working, then it's a Good Thing, because that means I can adjust the set a little brighter to make dark scenes not so dark but keep bright scenes reasonable. My pupils won't be working so hard, thank you.

(Fluctuating brightness IS annoying, and maybe it's something that can't be fixed completely as long as you need to have ABL, but I think it's a problem you can minimize with better software or just throwing more processing power at it.)

Now, what I would definitely not like is to have the kind of CE dimming in Samsung edge lit LCDs where the entire screen is dimmed in dark scenes to make blacks look better than they are. Movies nowadays are too dark already. Full array dimming LCDs are much better at it, but they have the problem of being too rich for my blood.
post #265 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

I guess. Or maby 0.001 is a full black measurement? I'll be honest and say i don't 100% understand how ftl is measured.

But every review i've read always says the kuros black level of 0.001.

Either way, the F8500 is around those levels. You can get your bigger TV now. smile.gif

Oh, i forgot about the ZT60. Decision, decisions.
Yup! it'll be an easy decision if it goes deeper still (and performs as expected). wink.gif
post #266 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

That's what I assume to, and it's true with my current OPPO player. I've never had a Smart TV with a Smart Hub. Let's hope your assumption is right. I agree it would be strange if you had to have an Internet connection to buy a Samsung TV. wink.gif

If thats what you meant then no, you do not need an internet connection for the TV to work, you only need it to access the "SmartTV" functions and do firmware updates over the network (updates can be done over USB I believe as well). Internet connectivity is not a must with a TV and I dont think it will be anytime soon.......
I prefer USB firmware updates anyway. Swiping and face recognition I can do without. As for "any time soon", I didn't expect Netflix to push so hard to switch as fast as possible to all streaming, but they are. It would be interesting to know what percentage of BDLive enabled devices have it turned on.
post #267 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Sounds like the 8500 is a worthy upgrade for Kuro owners!
Worthy but not a priority. biggrin.gif
post #268 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by surfmlb View Post

On cable no stretching

incredible. Again I thought this was bluray
post #269 of 11565
Well looks like I will be buying a new tv when the discounted prices are available in europe.smile.gif

Rob
post #270 of 11565
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooknl View Post

Well looks like I will be buying a new tv when the discounted prices are available in europe.smile.gif

Rob

Me too. My search now has narrowed to F8000 and F8500. Just need to see both in person and make the decision
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