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Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 151

post #4501 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by crmmoore View Post

That fixed the color fluctuation, I didn't notice a big hit in the black level. However, it definetly seems to be a bit more choppy, and it "greys out" the ability to put the motion smoother on. Is there any way to make it better?

Thanks

Yup this is my #1 and perhaps only problem with this TV and one I'm hoping gets fixed by the time my return window closes. It's just not really acceptable IMO. I want to watch 3D with motion smoothing and/or w/o Cinema Smooth. Hoping this gets fixed with forthcoming firmware. I've reported the problem to Samsung etc etc.

If they fixed this I'd be happy and just enjoy the set for the foreseeable future. Because of this I'm still on the fence, even though I adore it in most respects.

Of course I still need to swap my TV because I noticed recently I too have the faint horizontal band in the upper 3D of the TV. Hoping I can get one that doesn't have the band. Checked the set on display at one of the local Magnolia stores and it too has the band. rolleyes.gif
post #4502 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan0780 View Post

The motion smoother and cinema smooth can not be enabled at the same time. I have heard reports of judder being introduced when enabling the cinema smooth but I am using a mac mini not a blu ray player so I am out of help in that scenario. The black level change will be almost unnoticeable but it is there according to a couple reviews. Sorry I can not help further.

Dan

The judder and.or hiccuping appears to go away if you restart the content or wait for it to play a bit. Changing motion settings while content is playing seems to need some fiddling or time before it normalizes and works properly.
post #4503 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Guess you haven't been following the "QC Saga" of all these manufacturers. What we expect with all these companies and what we get, are too often two different things. frown.gif

Never had that fear when I bought my 151. Then again my cousin has had the power supply in his Samsung LCD go out 3 different times. I guess we should just be thankful companies are still trying to make a reference panel. I've been waiting a long time to go bigger then my 151. Maybe after this years shoot out I will.
post #4504 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post


[snip]

I'm also not sure about 'most' content being in the lower half of the brightness scale. Even if we assumed it was, given the difference in MLLs between the 8500 and the VT/ZT, you'd need content to be in the lower 5% (just picking a number) to see that difference. So if we look at it that way, it's the other 95% of material that would fall in a range where either both panels would perform equally or the 8500 would do better as the APL begins to climb the scale. That's also true with the relative behavior of the ABLs.


http://www.avsforum.com/t/1414313/better-to-have-2-2-gamma-or-stable-2-3-gamma-on-a-plasma/60#post_22145447

Larry
post #4505 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan0780 View Post

The motion smoother and cinema smooth can not be enabled at the same time. I have heard reports of judder being introduced when enabling the cinema smooth but I am using a mac mini not a blu ray player so I am out of help in that scenario. The black level change will be almost unnoticeable but it is there according to a couple reviews. Sorry I can not help further.

Dan

Is this the "pop" issue that people are talking about? or is that something else unrelated?
post #4506 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mankite View Post

Brand new tv with no issues, shouldn't you expect that?

Guess you haven't been following the "QC Saga" of all these manufacturers. What we expect with all these companies and what we get, are too often two different things. frown.gif
One thing that we're getting is lower prices, lower margins, and less competition. eek.gif
post #4507 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

One thing that we're getting is lower prices, lower margins, and less competition. eek.gif

No doubt about that but the fact is the 151 was the Ferrari of tvs. We will see a tv pass the Kuro in all performance aspects eventually but I doubt we will ever see the commitment to excellence that the Kuro delivered as its just not profitable and that is why most Kuro owners like myself find it hard to move on until the tv I own is bested in all regards.
post #4508 of 11451

Yeah, I've seen that Larry, thanks. Of course that's still a very limited amount of content and how indicative it is of the entire universe of content, who knows.

But I think it does underscore my point from at least those selections. A very small % of content shown was in that very low APL range where I suspect any differences in the black levels of the 8500 and VT/ZT would show. smile.gif
post #4509 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by mankite View Post

No doubt about that but the fact is the 151 was the Ferrari of tvs. We will see a tv pass the Kuro in all performance aspects eventually but I doubt we will ever see the commitment to excellence that the Kuro delivered as its just not profitable and that is why most Kuro owners like myself find it hard to move on until the tv I own is bested in all regards.

Lets be fair, I had a 151 too and used to hang out in those threads. There were problems there too, but perhaps not as many as with today's displays.
post #4510 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Lets be fair, I had a 151 too and used to hang out in those threads. There were problems there too, but perhaps not as many as with today's displays.

No doubt. Like I said I don't even think my 151 is without flaws performance wise but I had 4 different tvs before it and quickly realized its not perfection that made me content as there is no such thing. It was the lack of any obvious weaknesses. Granted my room is totally light controlled and I have no interest in 3D but I don't think its fair to over look these issues just because its brighter. In my opinion the Kuro tvs were by far the most dissected tvs as they were so expensive so naturally every little annoyance was magnified and to my knowledge I never heard of anyone excited at the fact that their new Kuro didn't suffer from 3 different issues.

I do believe there are people that are "Kuro fanboys" but that term gets thrown around way to often. I am totally unbiased and if I don't like something I sell it or return it. The fact is I was ready to purchase a new tv last year but my other cousin got a VT50 (From Robert @ Value Electronics which I can't say enough good things about as all my tvs for myself and relatives have come from) and I just couldn't justify the switch after seeing it even though I was itching to get the 5 additional inches as I sit 12' away.

I hope that the hype pans out this year at the shoot out as my tv is really thick, puts out a lot of heat, and is only 60 inches. But at the end of the day the picture still and not to mention the sound of true speakers mounted to the panel are if not the best all around are really close. Hopefully this shoot out proves otherwise and finally allows people like me that always wants the best if I can afford it to make a move.
Edited by mankite - 5/3/13 at 8:12pm
post #4511 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Yeah, I've seen that Larry, thanks. Of course that's still a very limited amount of content and how indicative it is of the entire universe of content, who knows.

But I think it does underscore my point from at least those selections. A very small % of content shown was in that very low APL range where I suspect any differences in the black levels of the 8500 and VT/ZT would show. smile.gif


I think you need to look more carefully at the data. Here is another movie analyzed by zoyd. He's done others but right now I can not find them.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1441407/grayscale-variances-different-patterns-plasma-calibration/210#post_23014906

The data all suggest that for movies the average APL is about 22%. And about that value is what the developers of the new calibration disks are using.

EDIT: Here are a few more.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1441407/grayscale-variances-different-patterns-plasma-calibration/180#post_23011356


Larry
Edited by LarryInRI - 5/3/13 at 8:35pm
post #4512 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by crmmoore View Post

Is this the "pop" issue that people are talking about? or is that something else unrelated?

Completely different issue. Don't go looking for it if you don't already notice it. smile.gif
post #4513 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan0780 View Post

Completely different issue. Don't go looking for it if you don't already notice it. smile.gif

I don't think it's a completely different issue. I think it's exactly the same issue. I think perhaps Cinema Smooth fixes it because it raises the black level slightly.

Good advice though wink.gif
post #4514 of 11451
Robert says he believes that the website download firmware fixes the fluctuating brightness and floating blacks. Can any owners confirm?
post #4515 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by grxz View Post

Robert says he believes that the website download firmware fixes the fluctuating brightness and floating blacks. Can any owners confirm?

I can confirm that firmware update 1101.2 did NOT stop fluctuating brightness on my 64. Which is not surprising because the update was also for other non-plasma Samsung televisions--(LED F7450/F7500/F7550/F8000) I really hope Robert is mistaken and that a firmware fix is still coming but im obviously having some doubts now frown.gifconfused.gif
Edited by Damien Inferno - 5/3/13 at 10:09pm
post #4516 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien Inferno View Post

I can confirm that firmware update 1101.2 did NOT stop fluctuating brightness on my 64. Which is not surprising because the update was also for other non-plasma Samsung televisions--(LED F7450/F7500/F7550/F8000) I really hope Robert is mistaken and that a firmware fix is still coming but im obviously having some doubts now frown.gifconfused.gif
He believes it does, but he said that before as well. I would agree with you Damien about the firmware. He said he reached out to his contacts at Samsung so, I guess it's just a waiting game until he hears something back.
post #4517 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

well that is one way...are you sure you want to take that plunge?biggrin.gif

90% is yes. What are other ways to check that?
post #4518 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

He believes it does, but he said that before as well. I would agree with you Damien about the firmware. He said he reached out to his contacts at Samsung so, I guess it's just a waiting game until he hears something back.

He also said how the beta firmware update he received from samsung removed the brightness pops from the footage he had so one can speculate 1101.2 was not meant to be the fix. (This is me trying to be hopeful biggrin.gif)
Edited by Damien Inferno - 5/3/13 at 11:20pm
post #4519 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien Inferno View Post

He also said how the beta firmware update he received from samsung removed the brightness pops from the footage he had so one can speculate 1101.2 was not meant to be the fix. (This is me trying to be hopeful biggrin.gif)

what i remember the scuttlebutt to be was this FW update was seperate one ahead of the 'pop' fix update soon to come... so we can remain hopeful biggrin.gif i think two sources (cnet and ve) both said the beta FW did fix... so... we wait... !
post #4520 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljmart View Post

what i remember the scuttlebutt to be was this FW update was seperate one ahead of the 'pop' fix update soon to come... so we can remain hopeful biggrin.gif i think two sources (cnet and ve) both said the beta FW did fix... so... we wait... !

Yes thats very true. We wait! Winter and 1017.2 are coming! tongue.gif
post #4521 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien Inferno View Post

Yes thats very true. We wait! Winter and 1017.2 are coming! tongue.gif

eek.gif !!
post #4522 of 11451
Robert should "accidently" leave that file on megashare! Lol.
post #4523 of 11451
Since I have not seen it asked yet I would like to recommend a true Blu Ray disc to test the color, vibrancy, and exactness of the 8500. Got my PN51F8500 yesterday and the only disc to test it out with (after calibration) was Feng Xiaogang's (who) "THE BANQUET" or by another title "Legend of the Black Scorpion". It is the Chinese retelling of Shakespeare's Macbeth starring Daniel Wu and Zhang Ziyi. From the opening scenes set in a temple deep in the lush forest where you can test the multitude of greens to the Emperor's henchmen armored in blue/black/purple armor you cannot but appreciate the 8500's ability to capture all of this accurately. Golds, silvers and other metallics sparkle and reds will blow you out of your seat. This non 3D film is the perfect Blu Ray test disc. You will find in online from a number of companies. I have it from Megastar, and it works perfectly. Just wanted to pass this Blu Ray on, and as I discover more BR's to recommend I will post them here as well. Thanks for reading.
post #4524 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by yamvmax View Post

Robert should "accidently" leave that file on megashare! Lol.

+1 wink.gif
post #4525 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by endlessender View Post

I don't think it's a completely different issue. I think it's exactly the same issue. I think perhaps Cinema Smooth fixes it because it raises the black level slightly.

Good advice though wink.gif

"Brightness Pops" are a completely different issue than the increase in black level. Brightness pops are when the abl circuit is limiting the brightness and the TV realizes it has some power left over and suddenly increases the whites that are on the screen. Happens during a panning screen of the sky or hockey games with the ice when a darker portion of the screen is panned in to the picture.

The increase in black level from turning the cinema smooth feature on has nothing to do with the problem albeit maybe have something to do with the abl circuit but on the complete other end of the spectrum. smile.gif

Without cinema smooth on in a very dark room you can see the black level of the screen looks good but every time the scene changes in the movie you can see a gradual decrease in the black like some sort of video processing going on. Its really when you have the black level setting turned on to dark room. Its almost as if the TV is not processing the blacks fast enough and you can see the blacks lower especially on 2.35 ratio content with black bars.

Dan
post #4526 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinger View Post

+1 wink.gif

knowing Samsung they said, "here Robert install this fw on your set." "oh btw we need that thumbdrive back as it's proprietary info."biggrin.gif
post #4527 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

I think you need to look more carefully at the data. Here is another movie analyzed by zoyd. He's done others but right now I can not find them.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1441407/grayscale-variances-different-patterns-plasma-calibration/210#post_23014906

The data all suggest that for movies the average APL is about 22%. And about that value is what the developers of the new calibration disks are using.

EDIT: Here are a few more.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1441407/grayscale-variances-different-patterns-plasma-calibration/180#post_23011356


Larry

I understand that Larry. All I'm saying is you can pick whatever movies you like to demonstrate an 'average' APL. It still says nothing about the 10s of thousands of movies that exist. And again, what I'm saying is that, IMO, the average movie has few scenes where the differences between .0015 and .0010 will be seen. Of course there will be some movies, with some scenes where, in a darkened room, you might be able to see the difference (if you had the other, lower MLL, panel sitting alongside for a true A/B). But, IMO, on average, you simply won't see the difference. Can you pick some really dark movies where the % of dark scenes will be higher and might show differences? Sure, but not when you average all the movies that are out there.

Of course the flip side of this coin is how many scenes are there, on average, where the behavior of the ABL will come in to play? There, the display that can provide a better high APL without the ABL throttling the display back, will be superior.

Right now there is no display that has both characteristics. You can get one with a very nearly 'best' MLL and the best brightness or you can get one with the best MLL and a brightness that is more hindered by the ABL. smile.gif
post #4528 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan0780 View Post

"Brightness Pops" are a completely different issue than the increase in black level. Brightness pops are when the abl circuit is limiting the brightness and the TV realizes it has some power left over and suddenly increases the whites that are on the screen. Happens during a panning screen of the sky or hockey games with the ice when a darker portion of the screen is panned in to the picture.

The increase in black level from turning the cinema smooth feature on has nothing to do with the problem albeit maybe have something to do with the abl circuit but on the complete other end of the spectrum. smile.gif

Without cinema smooth on in a very dark room you can see the black level of the screen looks good but every time the scene changes in the movie you can see a gradual decrease in the black like some sort of video processing going on. Its really when you have the black level setting turned on to dark room. Its almost as if the TV is not processing the blacks fast enough and you can see the blacks lower especially on 2.35 ratio content with black bars.

Dan

What I'm saying is that the increase in black level could be just enough to lower the contrast enough that the brightness fluctuations don't' happen in 3D. That's my theory. I understand the difference between the raised black and the brightness pops and I think you're right, it's on the other end of the spectrum therefore not making the ABL kick in(?) The ABL, in this TV, kicks in not because the scene is too bright it seems, but because of contrast. It's why you can lower contrast enough to make it go away. I still believe, that possibly, what I see in 3D and in hockey are the same thing, just manifested slightly differently,

In my mind, there's basically an ABL bug on this TV. Maybe it's a separate issue. Instinctively it has always felt like the same issue to me when I see it as it looks like similar behavior.

Either way, it's frustrating that Samsung wont' even acknowledge the behavior, much less that they wont' tell if there's going to be a fix. I have 4 more weeks. If nothing happens by then, sadly, it's going back and the search/wait continues.
Edited by endlessender - 5/4/13 at 8:15am
post #4529 of 11451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien Inferno View Post

I can confirm that firmware update 1101.2 did NOT stop fluctuating brightness on my 64. Which is not surprising because the update was also for other non-plasma Samsung televisions--(LED F7450/F7500/F7550/F8000) I really hope Robert is mistaken and that a firmware fix is still coming but im obviously having some doubts now frown.gifconfused.gif

Sadly, I'm having some doubts too. 1101.2 doesn't do anything positive whatsoever for this TV as far as I can tell. Puzzled why we never saw a 1017 that was used in CNET review. If we dont see something new by the shootout I'm going to be particularly concerned.
post #4530 of 11451
Hey all,

This is just a random question that I would like some insight on. What do you guys prefer as far as picture zoom on the tv between 16:9 and screen fit on the picture settings? For most content it doesn't seem to make a difference. I was just curious whether one had a clear advantage over the other.

Thanks
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