or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Plasma Flat Panel Displays › Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk]
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 183

post #5461 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post


All displays were calibrated to the same standard. Any differences would be displays unable to reach Rec.709.

Each color point is a combination of saturation, hue, and luminance. Grayscale underlays color - different level. If each display, calibrated, reaches the reference points, there would be no difference visually. What we see on our monitors is not conclusive and we need to see the reports which will be forthcoming.
good exlpanation
post #5462 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

From waht we saw and heard today, I would agree, but there is another day so who knows. I guess the F8500 held its own today with the Kuro\ZT\F8500 side by side (and the VT60 at the end) which is a good thing....Hopefully tomorrow we find out some more differences if there are any between the sets and the performance...The one thing they leave for tomorrow, ANSI contrast is what a lot of people are looking for as well as the calibrated numbers of course...

To my knowledge, they will not be re-measuring though. All of that done last night.
post #5463 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Panasonic will find other ways to go broke.

Ideas for Life!
post #5464 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

First of all, DeWayne, Kevin, and David all used meters within .002 of one another which for any practical purposes means they were all getting the same readings. Also, I would would put the the odds at zero that they did not have the latest FW.

^^ This they were also there to verify each others work, which is why they mentioned that the VT\ZT MLL measurement was taken on 3 different meters and all had the same reading.......I have no doubt that these sets were calibrated to the best of thier abilities. For firmware yes the F8500 had the latest firmware if not one beyond it.....
post #5465 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

To my knowledge, they will not be re-measuring though. All of that done last night.

I meant giving out the numbers wink.gif everything is already done, they just need to give out the results....
post #5466 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwiss View Post

Yes, the ZT beyond reference claim doesn't seem to be panning out.

The ZT60 might go down as the most overly-hyped display we've seen in a long time.
post #5467 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

I meant giving out the numbers wink.gif everything is already done, they just need to give out the results....

I am looking forward to how the calibrators voted and on various aspects (especially color as this has me more curious now). Will that be posted this weekend or next week?
post #5468 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

It's the luminance of the color and that is what attracts people to Samsung.

How so? The Color control, more appropriately called the Chroma Luminance control, increases color luminance more than anything else despite the rumor that it is a saturation control. Are you saying that increasing Color on a Panasonic would make it equal to a Samsung?????

It doesn't work that way. The Color control should only be used when a display does not have a Color Management System, and we are not discussing such displays. Everything color wise is handled through the CMS, including luminance. Done correctly, and if the display is capable, different displays should look the same.
post #5469 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I am looking forward to how the calibrators voted and on various aspects (especially color as this has me more curious now). Will that be posted this weekend or next week?

I think well get basics tomorrow with results (of testing) and Q&A...the voting results may not be up until later in the week....
post #5470 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

I don't know enough to comment, but I wonder what you're replying too.

I haven't been reading AVS for a few hours, and all the shoot out activity seems to be here ,and none in the Panasonic threads for the involved displays. I expected a lot of VT/VZ interest in the shoot out. Maybe there is a shootout thread. I've just been looking in my subscribed threads. smile.gif

Time to go get dinner. biggrin.gif

I think the wind got knocked out early when they said that teh VT and ZT measured the same black level, but the VT was brighter and the ST brighter than both.....Just an observation watching the stream...
eek.gif
Maybe the ST will get an even bigger boost in the market place.
post #5471 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

eek.gif
Maybe the ST will get an even bigger boost in the market place.

TBH I wouldnt be surprised if it did, I said it earllier when the revieews started to come in. i think Panasonic shot themselves in the foot by making the ST "too good". Of coure if they make more on the St sets, this may be somethign they wanted to do, but the bottom 2 (ST and GT (EU only for GT) seem to be very capable sets....I cn for sure see someone stepping down to the ST and using it as a "bridge" TV until the next tech comes out.....
post #5472 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

TBH I wouldnt be surprised if it did, I said it earllier when the revieews started to come in. i think Panasonic shot themselves in the foot by making the ST "too good". Of coure if they make more on the St sets, this may be somethign they wanted to do, but the bottom 2 (ST and GT (EU only for GT) seem to be very capable sets....I cn for sure see someone stepping down to the ST and using it as a "bridge" TV until the next tech comes out.....

I agree completely the ST VT gap is narrow this year and it appears the VT ZT gap if there is one is very very small.
post #5473 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

TBH I wouldnt be surprised if it did, I said it earllier when the revieews started to come in. i think Panasonic shot themselves in the foot by making the ST "too good". Of coure if they make more on the St sets, this may be somethign they wanted to do, but the bottom 2 (ST and GT (EU only for GT) seem to be very capable sets....I cn for sure see someone stepping down to the ST and using it as a "bridge" TV until the next tech comes out.....

I was just looking at the PDF calibration reports Chad posted for the ST60 and VT60 - damn they are close. And can anyone tell the difference between .0016 and .0013 MLL?!
post #5474 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I was just looking at the PDF calibration reports Chad posted for the ST60 and VT60 - damn they are close. And can anyone tell the difference between .0016 and .0013 MLL?!

Not unless they were right next to each other and then the difference would be small and hard to spot, Chad also said the ST VT gap is much narrower this year in his opinion
post #5475 of 11459
Where'd u get these reports?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
post #5476 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by yaomizzle View Post

Where'd u get these reports?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

He posts calibration reports in his reviews both are here in this forum
post #5477 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Not unless they were right next to each other and then the difference would be small and hard to spot, Chad also said the ST VT gap is much narrower this year in his opinion

I'd probably still go with the VT60 over the ST60 as I believe the video processing for cable sources and 3D will be better. Filter too. Any tiny edge in blacks and color still helps too especially getting it pro cal'd. smile.gif
post #5478 of 11459
Much better sound too, plus camera and much better input lag.
post #5479 of 11459
True.
post #5480 of 11459
I think the Insider says that it's the S and ST that make them their money any way. So more sales for the ST is fine with them.
post #5481 of 11459
Probably not the thread to mention this, but since we are on the subject...with the GT60 (not available here in the US) measuring supposedly a bit blacker than the ST60 and with the improved processor in it, and the THX and all that, if they DID make one here in the US then it seems with these results that would really kill the need to get a VT60 for anything other than maybe the design of the stand or something.
post #5482 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyrnes View Post

Much better sound too, plus camera and much better input lag.

Full cms also as opposed to just the primary's on ST60 just have Chad zero in that bad boy and you will be in heaven trust me. Ssssshhh all the 8500 owners must be sleeping or watching tv we hijacked there thread smile.gif
post #5483 of 11459
OK, so just back from the shootout and really tired. So if I sound incoherent, that's because I am.

For me, the biggest surprises were the effectiveness of the filter on the ZT60. Yes, it really does help that panel in typical room lighting while displaying blacks. But as I said at the shootout, the same filter that's effective in combating room light also robs the panel of a precious 5flt of brightness.

Second surprise, and I'm not sure how it showed up on your screens at home, but the Panasonics seriously clip white. Half the scale was missing on the Panasonics and the entire scale was visible on the Samsung. Kevin Miller told me it was obvious that Panasonic designed this panel for blacks and were very aware they were sacrificing brightness in the process. I asked if it was possible to get more than the 30ftl from the ZT60 or 35ftl from the VT60. The answer was a definitive 'no'. It's already clipping at the levels they calibrated them at. On the flip side, I believe it was David who thought for actual material it probably wouldn't be all the visible.

I agree with what some of you saw regarding color saturation on the 8500. At times it looked a bit less saturated. At other times, such as when they played Skyfall, the colors looked identical to the ZT60 & VT60. I mean identical. I don't know why a few other times it appeared a bit less saturated. I also thought the 8500 was a bit redder than the VT & ZT. But it's important to note that all the calibrators said to me that the 8500 was absolutely tracking properly and was fully in compliance with Rec709. I believe it was D-Nice who said if you turned off the VT & ZT, you'd never see the disparity. Kevin Miller absolutely felt the 8500 was extremely accurate.

At times the black levels of the ZT looked a bit better than the VT, but that was primarily when the room lighting was on. Once off, they looked identical. The big surprise to me was at the end when they played the Kuro demo reel that was designed to highlight blacks. I'm telling you guys, 95% of that demo looked IDENTICAL on all 3 panels. The other 5% of the time I gave the edge to the ZT & VT.

I don't know if it came across on your monitors, but at times the brightness advantage was very obvious on the 8500, but not as often as you might think. I don't believe the material they played, IMO, really highlighted the brightness differences. When was the disparity the most obvious? If you caught the period when they were playing around with Directv, the brightness differences were at times, huge. It was during those times that the screen had the largest % of bright areas. Hello ABL!

The Panasonic clearly has some issues such as calibration, clipping & 3D resolution. I personally don't care about 3D, but I know some of you guys do.

Although I was initially surprised at how well the ZT handled the room lighting, by the end of the night I came to the conclusion that, IMO, the 8500 has the most versatile qualities and did more things better than the other panels. The black levels are really close and the Kuro demo showed that in spades. But there's no question that if your biggest concern is MLL, than the ZT/VT is your best choice. Personally, if I was choosing between the 2, I'd go for the ZT if you had the extra cash. I really believe that filter does enough in terms of combating room lights and keeping black levels respectable, that it's worth the extra cost. But IMO, it simply is not a versatile panel. It does one thing better than the others, many other things as well as the others and falls woefully short in the brightness department.

Forgot about apparent sharpness. No surprises there, the Samsung looked the sharpest.

Oh yes, I ordered the F8500. smile.gif

Nighty night.
post #5484 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post

Probably not the thread to mention this, but since we are on the subject...with the GT60 (not available here in the US) measuring supposedly a bit blacker than the ST60 and with the improved processor in it, and the THX and all that, if they DID make one here in the US then it seems with these results that would really kill the need to get a VT60 for anything other than maybe the design of the stand or something.

Yes agreed with the extra pic controls that the GT50 didn't have last year probably a wash
post #5485 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

OK, so just back from the shootout and really tired. So if I sound incoherent, that's because I am.

For me, the biggest surprises were the effectiveness of the filter on the ZT60. Yes, it really does help that panel in typical room lighting while displaying blacks. But as I said at the shootout, the same filter that's effective in combating room light also robs the panel of a precious 5flt of brightness.

Second surprise, and I'm not sure how it showed up on your screens at home, but the Panasonics seriously clip white. Half the scale was missing on the Panasonics and the entire scale was visible on the Samsung. Kevin Miller told me it was obvious that Panasonic designed this panel for blacks and were very aware they were sacrificing brightness in the process. I asked if it was possible to get more than the 30ftl from the ZT60 or 35ftl from the VT60. The answer was a definitive 'no'. It's already clipping at the levels they calibrated them at. On the flip side, I believe it was David who thought for actual material it probably wouldn't be all the visible.

I agree with what some of you saw regarding color saturation on the 8500. At times it looked a bit less saturated. At other times, such as when they played Skyfall, the colors looked identical to the ZT60 & VT60. I mean identical. I don't know why a few other times it appeared a bit less saturated. I also thought the 8500 was a bit redder than the VT & ZT. But it's important to note that all the calibrators said to me that the 8500 was absolutely tracking properly and was fully in compliance with Rec709. I believe it was D-Nice who said if you turned off the VT & ZT, you'd never see the disparity. Kevin Miller absolutely felt the 8500 was extremely accurate.

At times the black levels of the ZT looked a bit better than the VT, but that was primarily when the room lighting was on. Once off, they looked identical. The big surprise to me was at the end when they played the Kuro demo reel that was designed to highlight blacks. I'm telling you guys, 95% of that demo looked IDENTICAL on all 3 panels. The other 5% of the time I gave the edge to the ZT & VT.

I don't know if it came across on your monitors, but at times the brightness advantage was very obvious on the 8500, but not as often as you might think. I don't believe the material they played, IMO, really highlighted the brightness differences. When was the disparity the most obvious? If you caught the period when they were playing around with Directv, the brightness differences were at times, huge. It was during those times that the screen had the largest % of bright areas. Hello ABL!

The Panasonic clearly has some issues such as calibration, clipping & 3D resolution. I personally don't care about 3D, but I know some of you guys do.

Although I was initially surprised at how well the ZT handled the room lighting, by the end of the night I came to the conclusion that, IMO, the 8500 has the most versatile qualities and did more things better than the other panels. The black levels are really close and the Kuro demo showed that in spades. But there's no question that if your biggest concern is MLL, than the ZT/VT is your best choice. Personally, if I was choosing between the 2, I'd go for the ZT if you had the extra cash. I really believe that filter does enough in terms of combating room lights and keeping black levels respectable, that it's worth the extra cost. But IMO, it simply is not a versatile panel. It does one thing better than the others, many other things as well as the others and falls woefully short in the brightness department.

Oh yes, I ordered the F8500. smile.gif

Nighty night.


Got to be a relief enjoy !!! smile.gif
post #5486 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I was just looking at the PDF calibration reports Chad posted for the ST60 and VT60 - damn they are close. And can anyone tell the difference between .0016 and .0013 MLL?!
We're OT but what am I missing in regards to the 96 hz mode of the VT where blacks went below 0.001 fL? Does this alter the picture to the extent that it throws off one's calibration?
post #5487 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

We're OT but what am I missing in regards to the 96 hz mode of the VT where blacks went below 0.001 fL? Does this alter the picture to the extent that it throws off one's calibration?

Good question. I would also like to know which mode the VT/ZT were in tonight although I assume 96hz.
post #5488 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

OK, so just back from the shootout and really tired. So if I sound incoherent, that's because I am.

For me, the biggest surprises were the effectiveness of the filter on the ZT60. Yes, it really does help that panel in typical room lighting while displaying blacks. But as I said at the shootout, the same filter that's effective in combating room light also robs the panel of a precious 5flt of brightness.

Second surprise, and I'm not sure how it showed up on your screens at home, but the Panasonics seriously clip white. Half the scale was missing on the Panasonics and the entire scale was visible on the Samsung. Kevin Miller told me it was obvious that Panasonic designed this panel for blacks and were very aware they were sacrificing brightness in the process. I asked if it was possible to get more than the 30ftl from the ZT60 or 35ftl from the VT60. The answer was a definitive 'no'. It's already clipping at the levels they calibrated them at. On the flip side, I believe it was David who thought for actual material it probably wouldn't be all the visible.

I agree with what some of you saw regarding color saturation on the 8500. At times it looked a bit less saturated. At other times, such as when they played Skyfall, the colors looked identical to the ZT60 & VT60. I mean identical. I don't know why a few other times it appeared a bit less saturated. I also thought the 8500 was a bit redder than the VT & ZT. But it's important to note that all the calibrators said to me that the 8500 was absolutely tracking properly and was fully in compliance with Rec709. I believe it was D-Nice who said if you turned off the VT & ZT, you'd never see the disparity. Kevin Miller absolutely felt the 8500 was extremely accurate.

At times the black levels of the ZT looked a bit better than the VT, but that was primarily when the room lighting was on. Once off, they looked identical. The big surprise to me was at the end when they played the Kuro demo reel that was designed to highlight blacks. I'm telling you guys, 95% of that demo looked IDENTICAL on all 3 panels. The other 5% of the time I gave the edge to the ZT & VT.

I don't know if it came across on your monitors, but at times the brightness advantage was very obvious on the 8500, but not as often as you might think. I don't believe the material they played, IMO, really highlighted the brightness differences. When was the disparity the most obvious? If you caught the period when they were playing around with Directv, the brightness differences were at times, huge. It was during those times that the screen had the largest % of bright areas. Hello ABL!

The Panasonic clearly has some issues such as calibration, clipping & 3D resolution. I personally don't care about 3D, but I know some of you guys do.

Although I was initially surprised at how well the ZT handled the room lighting, by the end of the night I came to the conclusion that, IMO, the 8500 has the most versatile qualities and did more things better than the other panels. The black levels are really close and the Kuro demo showed that in spades. But there's no question that if your biggest concern is MLL, than the ZT/VT is your best choice. Personally, if I was choosing between the 2, I'd go for the ZT if you had the extra cash. I really believe that filter does enough in terms of combating room lights and keeping black levels respectable, that it's worth the extra cost. But IMO, it simply is not a versatile panel. It does one thing better than the others, many other things as well as the others and falls woefully short in the brightness department.

Forgot about apparent sharpness. No surprises there, the Samsung looked the sharpest.

Oh yes, I ordered the F8500. smile.gif

Nighty night.

Ken the contrast was way overblown during teh feed so brightness was hard to tell outside of a few times and changed as the camera moved....regardign teh ZT\VT differences its nice to hear a first ahnd report since the only thing I could tell for sure was that the reflections on the ZT where handled much better on the ZT...The winner in the end may be a calibrated ST wink.gif

Im still surprised about the ftL output on the ZT, but I gues sthey were shooting for deepest blacks and those who have light controlled\theater rooms will not care about that limit....

Really looking forward to tomorrow to hear the calibration results as well as the Q&A, thank you again for taking the time to post your impressions and congrats on your new TV smile.gif
post #5489 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

OK, so just back from the shootout and really tired. So if I sound incoherent, that's because I am.

Yes Ken, I raised this issue a while back that the Pannys couldn't even match the Kuro's in brightness let alone the 8500. I saw this with the VT60's in BB. In my opinion Panasonic is pulling a fast one by telling you you are getting better black levels, but are doing it by limiting brightness. I think no matter what this is a win for the 8500, which I have to give a second look at now. It stood toe to toe with the big boys and came out looking good. I do think that many ZT orders will be cancelled though as there didn't seem to be a $1K street price difference between it and the VT. I will see when I go tomorrow.
post #5490 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

We're OT but what am I missing in regards to the 96 hz mode of the VT where blacks went below 0.001 fL? Does this alter the picture to the extent that it throws off one's calibration?

Good question to ask tomorrow, it may ahve thrown something else off which is possibly why they chose not to use it....If your watchign the stream and they take questions from the web, make sure to bring it up.....
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Plasma Flat Panel Displays
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Plasma Flat Panel Displays › Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk]