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Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 185

post #5521 of 11477
Ph8te did they ever say what the black level was on the F8500? I heard the VT/ZT number of 0.0013 and ST at 0.0016 but I didn't catch the F8500. At times the F8500 looked a tad lighter, but that is on a crappy feed and LCD monitor, lol.
post #5522 of 11477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plutotype View Post


I think, the F8500 is different from all 3 ZT, VT and KURO. D-Nice confirmed they calibrated it to 40ftl, while the Panasonics couldnt go higher than 35ftl. The max standard is 35ftl and that is why its a standard = going higher can crush whites. Regarding Panasonics whites - there was a white pattern, where I think it showed, Panasonics cant be pushed to 35ftl peak whites = they crush the whites then. The winning whites of the F8500 caused the captured stream I observe as "too much white". Maybe Ken ( attended the shootout ) can confirm, the white details on F8500 ARE NOT LOST in any way as the F8500 is much brighter and "whiter" as the other sets. Are the yellow whites on other Panasonics correct and F8500 is wrong?


Colors on the F8500 looked too luminant to me or better said less saturated than the other 3 sets. But who confirms, which TV adds colors saturation on the top and what if F8500 is the reference and other 3 are a little oversaturated?

Plutotype, just using your post as a place to start as a couple things need to be explained from a calibration point of view plus a couple of comments based on other previous posts since last night's Shootout.

There is no such thing as a luminance max standard, rather, there are guidelines based on the viewing environment. I had a lot of stream dropouts and probably missed some critical numbers but if the Shootout goals were the same as last year the displays were set as close to 35 Foot Lamberts peak output as they were capable to keep that parameter the same.

The White clipping pattern is a test pattern (duh) and contains White up to Video 255. Blu-Ray and HDTV only outputs, or is supposed to output, Video 235 as a maximum. Sometimes a little overage slips through the cracks and it is nice to have a little headroom (Video 240) to accommodate it for those rare occasions. The fact that some of the displays could display all the way to 255 doesn't mean they are somehow better than a display only capable of Video 235 because there isn't enough content to justify the honor. In short, it's okay to crush White above Video 235 but a little more horsepower is desirable.

One additional comment on high whites. Pure White throughout the Grayscale is equal parts red, green and blue. As an example, if the red component clips prior to the white peak, the brightest white will be somewhat blue as a result. The eye/brain mechanism uses the brightest white as the reference point and in this case will make the non red clipped portions of gray appear reddish even though it isn't so all that brightness can sometimes be a bad thing.

Regarding color saturation, the ability to saturate beyond the HDTV (Rec.709) standard is a good aspect. Most displays don't have the ability. Calibration reduces the oversaturated colors to the proper position. It is not possible to add saturation so the calibrator takes what is available and makes the most of it. Tonight's Shootout should tell the tale but perhaps the ZT60 has the advantage in this department.

Overall, though, it certainly looks like the F8500 will be by far the most versatile display and I have a D8000 and a VT50 located in very bright rooms. All those extra Foot Lamberts would make a good match for all the windows....
Edited by buzzard767 - 5/11/13 at 6:26am
post #5523 of 11477
is the 2nd shootout starting at 6 tonight again?
post #5524 of 11477
Quote:
Originally Posted by baux View Post

is the 2nd shootout starting at 6 tonight again?

Yes!
post #5525 of 11477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

These threads are moving way fast.
I guess you just need to put F8500 in the title and the thread will move and move with posts eek.gif

You are not kidding.

Last night I got home from a 15 day vacation and ran to the computer to see what was happening in the 8500 thread to discover I was about 50 pages behind.

Good to see Ken ordered the F8500 when he seemed to be leaning towards the Panasonic. Makes me feel much better regarding the 64F8500 that I will order soon.
post #5526 of 11477
Hi Buzz,

Agree on your comment. My findings are limited as I have watched the DVR stream this morning and trying to make some early ( maybe wrong ) conclusions.smile.gif

I think, if the F8500 has the headroom for having light output at 40ftl WITHOUT moving the "good" whites far behind 235, calibrator can use this feature to maximize contrast for the customer. I also agree that the accurate greyscale is a must here.
The pure whites on F8500 and the light output in general can have influnce on colors as well. So having the warm color feel looking at Panasonics is an opposite to the neutral feel of F8500 then. On the other hand, Panasonics looks to have yellowish whites in direct comparison to F8500.
So how it can be, that greyscale on Panasonics measuring linearity in all RGB components, but whites looking to be yellowish when compared to F8500 calibrated by the same gear / methods / conditions?
I think we also have to wait for the evaluation and comparison of shadow detail performance of F8500 ( 5/10/15/20 IRE ).

Regarding colors, the reviews of ZT60/F8500 showed almost identical results - they both are very color accurate also when comparing color tracking at individual saturation points. So again the question = why do Panasonics look warmer and F8500 neutral?
This is from the european AVforums site (F8500 left ):



Pluto
post #5527 of 11477
Good morning:
There is a twitter like discussion here about the shootout:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1472028/which-display-wins-the-shootout-lets-have-some-fun-make-your-predictions-here/90

Here's the link to watch the live HD webcast of our 9th annual 2013 Flat Panel HDTV Shootout Evaluation Event at 6pm Friday, May 10th and 6pm Saturday, May 11th
http://new.livestream.com/accounts/632436/hdtvshootout/videos/18161789
post #5528 of 11477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

So it is THE F8500?
looks GORGEOUS. I'm liking its white very much. It looks like the white of LED
I'm in love tongue.gif

correct..
post #5529 of 11477
Quote:
Originally Posted by myoda View Post

Good morning:
There is a twitter like discussion here about the shootout:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1472028/which-display-wins-the-shootout-lets-have-some-fun-make-your-predictions-here/90

Here's the link to watch the live HD webcast of our 9th annual 2013 Flat Panel HDTV Shootout Evaluation Event at 6pm Friday, May 10th and 6pm Saturday, May 11th
http://new.livestream.com/accounts/632436/hdtvshootout/videos/18161789

A couple of hours are missing from the start of last night, will the full video be available? Youtube?
post #5530 of 11477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plutotype View Post

Watched the DVR stream. My first impressions from the shootout:

I think, the F8500 is different from all 3 ZT, VT and KURO. D-Nice confirmed they calibrated it to 40ftl, while the Panasonics couldnt go higher than 35ftl. The max standard is 35ftl and that is why its a standard = going higher can crush whites. Regarding Panasonics whites - there was a white pattern, where I think, Panasonics cant be pushed to 35ftl peak whites = they crush the whites then. The winning whites of the F8500 caused the captured stream I observe as "too much white". Maybe Ken ( attended the shootout ) can confirm, the white details on F8500 ARE NOT LOST in any way as the F8500 is much brighter and "whiter" as the other sets. Are the yellow whites on other Panasonics correct and F8500 is wrong?
http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/Plutotype/media/F8500whites_zpse9cde3d3.jpg.html

ZT max is at 30ftl, VT can go higher. But there is a issue. I did a snapshot from the 2013 VE Shootout and recommend you to watch the day 1 replay at the 1hour 26min mark.
http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/Plutotype/media/WhitespatternZTvsF8500_zps7c556f06.jpg.html
http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/Plutotype/media/WhitespatternZTvsF8500-2_zpsd07df1eb.jpg.html

Colors on the F8500 looked too luminant to me or better said less saturated than the other 3 sets. But who confirms, which TV adds colors saturation on the top and what if F8500 is the reference and other 3 are a little oversaturated?

I liked the colors and whites on KURO though smile.gif

Hmm..

In your first picture (face of a woman) I can't say the brand of the TVs as it is not visible but what I can say is that I'm liking the middle TV most followed by the one in the right then the one in the left

So what are these TVs?

IMO, the middle tv, F8500 lost a lot of detail in bright areas. It was most noticeable during this period when the demo disc was playing.

Also, noted just prior to this disc being played is that the gray scale on Pannys is blue/green while Samsung's is red.
post #5531 of 11477
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

IMO, the middle tv, F8500 lost a lot of detail in bright areas. It was most noticeable during this period when the demo disc was playing.

I see what you mean in that pic. I wonder if the F8500 was at 30 or 35 fl how that would have looked?

But the warmer color of the Panasonic stands out to me...and did in a number of clips last night (watching the streaming video). The Samsung colors seemed just a bit more of the cooler, less saturated side at times.
post #5532 of 11477
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixdoctor View Post

Yes Ken, I raised this issue a while back that the Pannys couldn't even match the Kuro's in brightness let alone the 8500. I saw this with the VT60's in BB. In my opinion Panasonic is pulling a fast one by telling you you are getting better black levels, but are doing it by limiting brightness. I think no matter what this is a win for the 8500, which I have to give a second look at now. It stood toe to toe with the big boys and came out looking good. I do think that many ZT orders will be cancelled though as there didn't seem to be a $1K street price difference between it and the VT. I will see when I go tomorrow.
I would not say they are pulling a fast one, they are just focused on black levels......

One thing is for sure, there are MANY good panels out this year !
Edited by Cleveland Plasma - 5/11/13 at 8:19am
post #5533 of 11477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

It was at 16 for most of the night....
All of the sets were calibrated for 40ftL

Okay thanks for the info. The very amateur/basic 18cell cal I did is still too bright for me, even after the new firmware. After watching it for a day on cell 18, 56fL, I can't live with it. I knew you couldn't take this thing to 20 for anything other than very bright conditions, I was saying that since I got the TV.
I will try a 16-17 cell cal tonight / tomorrow.
post #5534 of 11477
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post

A couple of hours are missing from the start of last night, will the full video be available? Youtube?

Found in the comments from Robert:
http://new.livestream.com/accounts/632436/hdtvshootout/videos/18161789
Mike, the edited version will be on our youtube channel in about a week.
about 13 hours ago
post #5535 of 11477
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

Okay thanks for the info. The very amateur/basic 18cell cal I did is still too bright for me, even after the new firmware. After watching it for a day on cell 18, 56fL, I can't live with it. I knew you couldn't take this thing to 20 for anything other than very bright conditions, I was saying that since I got the TV.
I will try a 16-17 cell cal tonight / tomorrow.

56ftL would be good for a bright room\day time viewing but wayyyyyyyy to bright for night time IMO. Really night time\dim room "should" be closer to 32-40ftL as they do it in the shootout. If you calibrate down fo rnight time vewing it may be better for you smile.gif
post #5536 of 11477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

56ftL would be good for a bright room\day time viewing but wayyyyyyyy to bright for night time IMO. Really night time\dim room "should" be closer to 32-40ftL as they do it in the shootout. If you calibrate down fo rnight time vewing it may be better for you smile.gif

Yeah I agree, and used to have a cell 17 50fL that was nice which got wrecked with the new firmware, but I had assumed overall brightness dimmed somewhat hence producing an 18 cell.
I think something in the high 40's / low 50's would be good.

We know now that the f8500 has re-written the rules for cell to max and other levels set accordingly.
Even though the fact that cell at 20 suffers the least amount of ABL, it's impractical to use in most cases.
post #5537 of 11477
Beginners and Newbies like it Brighter since they've come from the Super Blue TV Experiences.
Calibrators, and us old timers, like Better Quality, and looking more Natural so we don't have to wear Sunglasses when watching!
post #5538 of 11477
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post


The White clipping pattern is a test pattern (duh) and contains White up to Video 255. Blu-Ray and HDTV only outputs, or is supposed to output, Video 235 as a maximum. Sometimes a little overage slips through the cracks and it is nice to have a little headroom (Video 240) to accommodate it for those rare occasions. The fact that some of the displays could display all the way to 255 doesn't mean they are somehow better than a display only capable of Video 235 because there isn't enough content to justify the honor. In short, it's okay to crush White above Video 235 but a little more horsepower is desirable.

I'm glad you brought this up. David mentioned they like to see 240 but in reality anything above that is pretty meaningless because there just isn't anything content above 240 (and very, very little above 235) in the real world. Unfortunately, there are those who didn't hear that, choose to ignore it or just don't have a clue and are touting it as a major factor now. "Clipping nearly 50% of the whites" confused.gif
post #5539 of 11477
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Beginners and Newbies like it Brighter since they've come from the Super Blue TV Experiences.
Calibrators, and us old timers, like Better Quality, and looking more Natural so we don't have to wear Sunglasses when watching!

My preferred setting was cell to 14 before the new firmware eek.gif
I am dim-dark room preference.
post #5540 of 11477
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Beginners and Newbies like it Brighter since they've come from the Super Blue TV Experiences.
Calibrators, and us old timers, like Better Quality, and looking more Natural so we don't have to wear Sunglasses when watching!

I would like to add that I was getting ADVICE to keep cell at 20 when I first got the TV as that's what you do with PDP's. It was not good lol.

I thought I was going nutz as I couldn't make anything work for me at that level.
post #5541 of 11477
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

My preferred setting was cell to 14 :before the new firmware eek:
I am dim-dark room preference.

Sometimes its nice to test the limits though wink.gif
post #5542 of 11477
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Beginners and Newbies like it Brighter since they've come from the Super Blue TV Experiences.
Calibrators, and us old timers, like Better Quality, and looking more Natural so we don't have to wear Sunglasses when watching!

Not true

For a dim plasma in a bright room you have to put glasses to watch the details. Sometimes it becomes so dim in a very bright room that what you call natural becomes completely unnatural. With a dim picture you will even have eye strain as you will be trying hard to concentrate on the details of the picture which are not visible. You are putting lots of pressure on your eyes.
People who want brighter plasmas have their valid reasons for it. You can't ditch them by terming them as newbies.

What you are saying is that either become an "experienced" bat like me or you will be a newbie. Thanks for the clever logic.
Edited by Halimali - 5/11/13 at 9:49am
post #5543 of 11477
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

IMO, the middle tv, F8500 lost a lot of detail in bright areas. It was most noticeable during this period when the demo disc was playing.

I see what you mean in that pic. I wonder if the F8500 was at 30 or 35 fl how that would have looked?

But the warmer color of the Panasonic stands out to me...and did in a number of clips last night (watching the streaming video). The Samsung colors seemed just a bit more of the cooler, less saturated side at times.

I believe the Samsung was at 40FL. I agree about the color but noticed that the color looked different on the VT & ZT and had to wonder how it really looked in person. I think the angle of the camera and the filter may have made them look different.
Edited by sheshechic - 5/11/13 at 9:48am
post #5544 of 11477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Beginners and Newbies like it Brighter since they've come from the Super Blue TV Experiences.
Calibrators, and us old timers, like Better Quality, and looking more Natural so we don't have to wear Sunglasses when watching!

Not true

For a dim plasma in a bright room you have to put sunglasses to watch the details. Sometimes it becomes so dim in a very bright room that what you call natural becomes completely unnatural. With a dim picture you will even have eye strain as you will be trying hard to concentrate on the details of the picture which are not visible. You are putting lots of pressure on your eyes.
People who want brighter plasmas have their valid reasons for it. You can't ditch them by terming them as newbies.

What you are saying is that either become an "experienced" bat like me or you will be a newbie. Thanks for the clever logic.

That's not true. A dim plasma in a bright room requires sunglasses to see the details? lol Dim pictures don't put a strain on the eyes the way a too bright picture does. However, IMO a too dim picture can tax your brain but, unless you're watching the out of the box standard setting, no tv is that dim.
post #5545 of 11477
Glasses. Not sunglasses
And one thing I do not understand is the out of the box concept. A TV should have enough brightness out of the box to be better when calibrated. If not then it is out of the question.
post #5546 of 11477
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

I believe the Samsung was at 40FL. I agree about the color but noticed that the color looked different on the VT & ZT and had to wonder how it really looked in person. I think the angle of the camera and the filter may have made them look different.

All sets except for the VTZT were set to 40ftL, the ZT was "only" able to hit 30ftL and the VT 35ftL...In the ZT\F8500\VT\Kuro demo Kuro\F8500 reached 40ftL which is why the Panasonis may have looked "dim". The light difference though may not mean much depending on what type of enviornment the set goes into. Where it will matter is on the showroom floor when people are window shopping and dont research forums like these....

You are correct about the camera and angle, its no use to try to compare anything really as the off angle and multiple other factors could skew what you are seeing. the VT\ZT\F8500 were all able to be calibrated to near perfect color....Its more important to pay attention to what they say rather than what you see (in the case of the web feed and pictures taken).....
Edited by Ph8te - 5/11/13 at 10:26am
post #5547 of 11477
I agree Ph8te.
post #5548 of 11477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

Glasses. Not sunglasses
And one thing I do not understand is the out of the box concept. A TV should have enough brightness out of the box to be better when calibrated. If not then it is out of the question.

Now you sound like a newbie. My out of the box standard statement was referring to a setting not what can be achieved across all settings. Also, that was my point- take the darned thing out of standard and dimness isn't an issue to the point of needing any kind of eyewear. However, on some you may need sunglasses to protect your retinas (too bright). wink.gif
post #5549 of 11477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Picasso Moon View Post

I'm glad you brought this up. David mentioned they like to see 240 but in reality anything above that is pretty meaningless because there just isn't anything content above 240 (and very, very little above 235) in the real world. Unfortunately, there are those who didn't hear that, choose to ignore it or just don't have a clue and are touting it as a major factor now. "Clipping nearly 50% of the whites" confused.gif

Yes. I made that post because like in nearly all threads outside the Display Calibration sub forum there is, by most participants, a lack of knowledge concerning calibration goals and Rec.709 standards. That's fine, but what happens is that speculation becomes conjecture and the misinformation spreads.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

For a dim plasma in a bright room you have to put glasses to watch the details. Sometimes it becomes so dim in a very bright room that what you call natural becomes completely unnatural. With a dim picture you will even have eye strain as you will be trying hard to concentrate on the details of the picture which are not visible. You are putting lots of pressure on your eyes.
People who want brighter plasmas have their valid reasons for it. You can't ditch them by terming them as newbies.

Light output is also based on other factors than the brightness of the room. Take screen size for example. A 75" DLP at 10' in a reasonably light controlled room only needs about 23 Foot Lamberts. A 120" front projector screen should be reflecting 14-16 FtL.

Any LCD or Plasma in my very bright Florida living room needs to output 55-60 FtL or it looks dull as can be. When I find a plasma in a western facing, all glass high rise condo on the Gulf of Mexico I just tell them to turn it in for an LED.

But now we have the new Samsung plasma pixel technology - this is a game changer....
post #5550 of 11477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

Glasses. Not sunglasses
And one thing I do not understand is the out of the box concept. A TV should have enough brightness out of the box to be better when calibrated. If not then it is out of the question.
ALL tvs have enough brightness out of the box to look better when calibrated. And they will probably look even better yet when you calibrate the brightness along with everything else. No one uses out of the box settings. I dont understand why you keep harping on that as being such a big priority.
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