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Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 187

post #5581 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackobots View Post

Unfortunately, we have yet to see posted calibration settings that produce a better picture or even more accurate colors than the standard or slightly tweaked OOB settings. Hopefully we will down the line rolleyes.gif

You may want to try my 56fL cal (link in sig).
See how it works for you. I'd be interested.
We do have different sized 8500's though, so the cal may be too far off've baseline...
Edited by pieandchips - 5/11/13 at 1:57pm
post #5582 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by shpankey View Post

.
I bought the 64" 8500 and am starting to regret it already. It just doesn't get as bright as the 60" I seen in the store. Also, while the colors look accurate, they don't seem to pop as much as my old panny 50". Just overall less saturated picture than what I've grown accustomed to, right or wrong, I've grown fond of deep, rich, saturated colors and an overall very "warm" look.

shpankey,
As far as britenes not being as what you saw in the store with the 60 inch try doing what is suggest in this post.
That should make a big difference.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf8500-series-discussion-thread-no-street-price-talk/4920_60#post_23289488

This is regarding the ECO SENSOR setting.
Hope it helps!!!!

Rob
post #5583 of 11459
shpankey
Did you have the cell light at 20 max on the 64", and it was not bright enough?
post #5584 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooknl View Post

shpankey,
As far as britenes not being as what you saw in the store with the 60 inch try doing what is suggest in this post.
That should make a big difference.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf8500-series-discussion-thread-no-street-price-talk/4920_60#post_23289488

This is regarding the ECO SENSOR setting.
Hope it helps!!!!

Rob
Holy crap, this explains why it's not as bright! I was thinking it was the larger size or a bad tv. So we lost brightness with the firmware update. This totally explains it! Thank you for the link and this info! Trying it now, but damn man, I want that brightness back I witnessed at the store. I don't care about the pops. I want that jaw dropping brightness! Hopefully your trick will work, but reading some of those posts, I'm not too optimistic. I know one thing, if I get this replaced, I'm not updating the firmware. Something told me I should read up on it first before doing it to make sure. Man, this always happens to me. frown.gif

Yup, cell at 20. In fact, I went straight to Movie mode, then immediately reset it. It was defaulted to 20. Contrast 95, Brightness 45, Sharpness 20. Any setting tweaks other than the eco trick I should apply?
post #5585 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

With all due respect, you can get off to a pretty good start copying settings compared to OOB settings.
There has to be a disconnect between people who get a pro in and spend at least a few hundred for a decent calibration to someone who just want's better than OOB.

The two things should not be compared as they are not the same. Do you want deluxe or economy? I think the owner can pick and understand the differences.

When you use one control and change it one click you have a 50% chance of improving the picture and a 50% chance of making it worse. Changing lots of settings yields the same result. People would be better off burning this free disc so they can more or less accurately set black, white, color luminance, and sharpness.

I've inputted and measured settings from others just to show them how bad it can get. All those little electronic parts aren't exactly military spec ya know. wink.gif
post #5586 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

When you use one control and change it one click you have a 50% chance of improving the picture and a 50% chance of making it worse. Changing lots of settings yields the same result. People would be better off burning this free disc so they can more or less accurately set black, white, color luminance, and sharpness.

I've inputted and measured settings from others just to show them how bad it can get. All those little electronic parts aren't exactly military spec ya know. wink.gif
You assume too much. You may be able to do better with the disc than by copying someone elses professional calibration settings. But you may not. And theres a good chance imo that if someone is extremely concerned about the quality of the ootb settings they may not have the skills to do a proper job with the disc. If I intended to calibrate it with a disc then I would care less about the ootb settings. And even with the disc you wont be able to match a pro calibrator with the proper equipment. The only thing you would have going for you would be that you are doing it in your exact environment.
post #5587 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackobots View Post

Unfortunately, we have yet to see posted calibration settings that produce a better picture or even more accurate colors than the standard or slightly tweaked OOB settings. Hopefully we will down the line rolleyes.gif
You will. rolleyes.gif
post #5588 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by shpankey View Post

Holy crap, this explains why it's not as bright! I was thinking it was the larger size or a bad tv. So we lost brightness with the firmware update. This totally explains it! Thank you for the link and this info! Trying it now, but damn man, I want that brightness back I witnessed at the store. I don't care about the pops. I want that jaw dropping brightness! Hopefully your trick will work, but reading some of those posts, I'm not too optimistic. I know one thing, if I get this replaced, I'm not updating the firmware. Something told me I should read up on it first before doing it to make sure. Man, this always happens to me. frown.gif

Yup, cell at 20. In fact, I went straight to Movie mode, then immediately reset it. It was defaulted to 20. Contrast 95, Brightness 45, Sharpness 20. Any setting tweaks other than the eco trick I should apply?

Ok here is what you do step by step for the ECO SENSOR setting.
Menu/System/Eco Solution/Eco Sensor (set to ON) then set the option MIN CELL LIGHT to 20
Then turn off the sensor again and you should have a bright tv,

Heres hopin it works for you!!!

Rob
post #5589 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by shpankey View Post

Holy crap, this explains why it's not as bright! I was thinking it was the larger size or a bad tv. So we lost brightness with the firmware update. This totally explains it! Thank you for the link and this info! Trying it now, but damn man, I want that brightness back I witnessed at the store. I don't care about the pops. I want that jaw dropping brightness! Hopefully your trick will work, but reading some of those posts, I'm not too optimistic. I know one thing, if I get this replaced, I'm not updating the firmware. Something told me I should read up on it first before doing it to make sure. Man, this always happens to me. frown.gif

Yup, cell at 20. In fact, I went straight to Movie mode, then immediately reset it. It was defaulted to 20. Contrast 95, Brightness 45, Sharpness 20. Any setting tweaks other than the eco trick I should apply?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1467675/f8500-recommended-settings-thread wink.gif

Sharpness at 20? nnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooo (darth vader voice) biggrin.gif

Tyr standard mode? they were using Movie to calibrate for for dark room, but paly around with teh modes\settings until you find something you like.
post #5590 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

When you use one control and change it one click you have a 50% chance of improving the picture and a 50% chance of making it worse. Changing lots of settings yields the same result. People would be better off burning this free disc so they can more or less accurately set black, white, color luminance, and sharpness.

I've inputted and measured settings from others just to show them how bad it can get. All those little electronic parts aren't exactly military spec ya know. wink.gif

There are some 51 users that have tried my settings and see them as a vast improvement over OOB. It is also quick and easy to do. Your 50% less/worse analogy does not apply as you are not simply picking random values. You won't be that far off copying them from another like TV. A purist pro calibrator like yourself (I mean no malice saying that) will obviously have issues with my points, but I think they are fair and should be considered.
post #5591 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

There are some 51 users that have tried my settings and see them as a vast improvement over OOB. It is also quick and easy to do. Your 50% less/worse analogy does not apply as you are not simply picking random values. You won't be that far off copying them from another like TV. A purist pro calibrator like yourself (I mean no malice saying that) will obviously have issues with my points, but I think they are fair and should be considered.
+1 Hundreds, if not thousands, of people have used others pro cal settings and said they were a big improvement over the ootb settings.
post #5592 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

And theres a good chance imo that if someone is extremely concerned about the quality of the ootb settings they may not have the skills to do a proper job with the disc.


A monkey could do it.

You ought to post some of your thoughts in the Display Calibration forum and see how far you get. Contrary to popular belief, it's not a place inhabited by greedy nerds trying to access your wallet but I'll bet you don't want to hear the facts about copying settings.

If I calibrate an F8500 in the next couple weeks I'll input someone else's settings and see how they measure up versus the factory Movie mode and also the Movie mode with settings dictated with the use of a disc. And of course, after I do a real calibration. wink.gif
post #5593 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by shpankey View Post

Also, I bought a supposed "ISF Calibration" from the Magnolia store I bought my tv from (inside a best buy). It cost $250. I was told the technician was ISF Certified and attended ISF classes regularly and that he used legitimate calibration equipment. Can anyone confirm this is a good service to buy from them and cost? I'd love to pay for one of the super-pro ISF guys here but don't have much patience for coordinating and waiting for a known name. Though if you live anywhere near the Tulsa, Oklahoma area and are one, please email/pm me asap. I can pay immediately and would like to schedule you as soon as convenient.
If you want to know about what other owner's think about the BB calibration use the link in the signature area at the bottom of my post. Go to post number two and check out the links to BB calibrations at the beginning of the post.

You will also find Chad B and UMR reports in the same post. They are two professionals that may do tours to your area. Your post is giving off very mixed signals about what you want. wink.gif

Keep in mind that most of the BB reports were included "Free" as a part of the purchase of a TV. There are very few people who have reported that they paid for the BB service.
post #5594 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

There are some 51 users that have tried my settings and see them as a vast improvement over OOB. It is also quick and easy to do. Your 50% less/worse analogy does not apply as you are not simply picking random values. You won't be that far off copying them from another like TV. A purist pro calibrator like yourself (I mean no malice saying that) will obviously have issues with my points, but I think they are fair and should be considered.

I did in fact calibrate a GT30 a couple years ago that had the exact D-Nice break in procedures and 2 point GS settings in the service menu. I admit to having been blown away when I only had to make a couple of very small changes. It does happen, but it's rare.

As an after thought, how many of the 51 are experiencing placebo effect?
post #5595 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

A monkey could do it.

You ought to post some of your thoughts in the Display Calibration forum and see how far you get. Contrary to popular belief, it's not a place inhabited by greedy nerds trying to access your wallet but I'll bet you don't want to hear the facts about copying settings.

If I calibrate an F8500 in the next couple weeks I'll input someone else's settings and see how they measure up versus the factory Movie mode and also the Movie mode with settings dictated with the use of a disc. And of course, after I do a real calibration. wink.gif
Im surprised youve never done something like that before. Im looking forward to the results.
Btw....I got a professional calibration so I know youre not just a bunch of greedy nerds. And I have been to the Display Calibration forum so I do know something about it.
post #5596 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooknl View Post

Ok here is what you do step by step for the ECO SENSOR setting.
Menu/System/Eco Solution/Eco Sensor (set to ON) then set the option MIN CELL LIGHT to 20
Then turn off the sensor again and you should have a bright tv,

Heres hopin it works for you!!!

Rob
Hey Rob, thanks. Concerning where to set the Cell and Contrast settings at to before doing this... should I set Cell at 10, Contrast at like 80, then do the above? Or should they be maxed, then do the above? Or something else?
post #5597 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

I did in fact calibrate a GT30 a couple years ago that had the exact D-Nice break in procedures and 2 point GS settings in the service menu. I admit to having been blown away when I only had to make a couple of very small changes. It does happen, but it's rare.

As an after thought, how many of the 51 are experiencing placebo effect?
I have heard many people say that they used DNice settings after running the slides and the got a cal disc and had to do very little to true it up. I am one of them.
Then I got a pro cal and it looks way better. Thanks to ChadB.
post #5598 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by shpankey View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cooknl View Post

Ok here is what you do step by step for the ECO SENSOR setting.
Menu/System/Eco Solution/Eco Sensor (set to ON) then set the option MIN CELL LIGHT to 20
Then turn off the sensor again and you should have a bright tv,

Heres hopin it works for you!!!

Rob
Hey Rob, thanks. Concerning where to set the Cell and Contrast settings at to before doing this... should I set Cell at 10, Contrast at like 80, then do the above? Or should they be maxed, then do the above? Or something else?
I've just read your other posts after I replied to your $250 calibration question.

If I understand your tastes, I suggest that you cancel your BB calibration and spend some time with your F8500 before you think about a professional (other than BB) calibration.
post #5599 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by shpankey View Post

Hey Rob, thanks. Concerning where to set the Cell and Contrast settings at to before doing this... should I set Cell at 10, Contrast at like 80, then do the above? Or should they be maxed, then do the above? Or something else?

I would set the CELL at 20 and Contrast around 90 or 95.

That should do it.

Rob
post #5600 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

A monkey could do it.

Are you buzzard or a monkey...or a combination of both eek.gif

Either way, I hope they get the calibration firmware fixed before you head up north biggrin.gif
post #5601 of 11459
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shpankey View Post

Also, I bought a supposed "ISF Calibration" from the Magnolia store I bought my tv from (inside a best buy). It cost $250. I was told the technician was ISF Certified and attended ISF classes regularly and that he used legitimate calibration equipment. Can anyone confirm this is a good service to buy from them and cost? I'd love to pay for one of the super-pro ISF guys here but don't have much patience for coordinating and waiting for a known name. Though if you live anywhere near the Tulsa, Oklahoma area and are one, please email/pm me asap. I can pay immediately and would like to schedule you as soon as convenient.
Sometimes you get what you pay for, it will cost more but as htwaits said, look at the pros out there.
post #5602 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

If you want to know about what other owner's think about the BB calibration use the link in the signature area at the bottom of my post. Go to post number two and check out the links to BB calibrations at the beginning of the post.

You will also find Chad B and UMR reports in the same post. They are two professionals that may do tours to your area. Your post is giving off very mixed signals about what you want. wink.gif

Keep in mind that most of the BB reports were included "Free" as a part of the purchase of a TV. There are very few people who have reported that they paid for the BB service.
I apologize for not being clear. I am asking if this is a proper ISF Calibration as required, as I'm ignorant on their quality or lack thereof. It was claimed that this was in no way any kind of mediocre adjustments done by a non-pro. They claimed, as I said, he had true ISF certification and maintains his certification and Magnolia's requirements by regularly staying updated by attending classes. Also claimed to use high end calibration equipment including a laptop to demonstrate to me a proper color calibration reaching D65k etc.

I do not know if this is a quality, legit service but they made it out to be. Even if it were, I doubt it would be as good as the "super-pro" as I called them (for lack of a better term) that the KNOWN elite calibrators are running around these forums (i.e. Chad B, etc). My biggest issue is coordinating one of the super-pro's and waiting. I would like it done after a few weeks... I cannot wait months for one of them to come through my area.

Cost isn't really an issue, as long as it's not absurd. In fact, I considered having this done then in a year getting one of the super-pro's to re-calibrate it after they really learned the in and outs of this new model and the tv truly and fully broke completely in.

Of course, if one of the elite is in my area, give me a shout and I'm in for sure. I just hate having to research it and then wait 3 months, countless emails, etc. (yes, I tried doing this many years ago... waited 3 months, re-scheduling him 3 times, only to end up not getting it done due to canceling. It was just a big frustration that I don't want to go through again. I hate waiting and I'm lazy, what can I say. lol
Edited by shpankey - 5/11/13 at 3:50pm
post #5603 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooknl View Post

I would set the CELL at 20 and Contrast around 90 or 95.

That should do it.

Rob

Thank you. So, to be clear... set it to Movie, set Cell at 20, Contrast 90, then go into the Eco Sensor, turn it On, then set the minimum to 20. Back out of all the menus, go back into Eco Sensor and turn it off. Then go to Contrast and put it back to 95? That it?
post #5604 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by shpankey View Post

I never seen it before the firmware update, as it's the first thing I did last night (update the firmware when I got the 8500 home) but reading about that issue, I watched a hockey game last night from a recorded event on my dvr (blackhawks 5, some other team 1) looking for fluctuating light/dark anything and definitely did not see any issues whatsoever. Though perhaps my eye is just untrained to spot it.

I bought the 64" 8500 and am starting to regret it already. It just doesn't get as bright as the 60" I seen in the store. Also, while the colors look accurate, they don't seem to pop as much as my old panny 50". Just overall less saturated picture than what I've grown accustomed to, right or wrong, I've grown fond of deep, rich, saturated colors and an overall very "warm" look. It's hard to explain, as it's not a flaw at all, it is kind of like the "warm2" setting is actually set to "normal" and I want to switch to a warmer setting. Again, it's not really a flaw as much as just a preference of mine I've grown to like over time. Like the first time I started using "warm" on my panny when I had always used "normal" before that. It took me awhile to start liking it. I wanted to go back to normal for a long time. This tv looks like it's on normal and my panny is on warm. That's about the best way to explain it in my limited vernacular.

I do have a couple of MAJOR issues however. I have my Onkyo SR-875 in the shop getting updated firmware and dsp done to it, so I'm forced to use the tv for audio. It seems that whenever I do certain things (not sure what causes it yet, but it's definitely more than just 1 thing that triggers it... I think even maybe 3 things cause it) like switch inputs, the tv automatically turns the sound off via turning the tv sound output back to receiver, which was the default. This is infuriating to say the least! Second, I cannot get my Dish VIP722DVR to function with the smart hub stuff properly. It won't allow my remote to change the channel via the remote itself or the guide. This wouldn't be such a huge deal if it wasn't for the fact that samsungs guide for my Dish account is freakiing amazingly awesome and I want to use it desperately! It's waaaay better than Dish's own tv guide. I can view the samsung guide of my dish tv account (i.e: I see the guide, can browse all the channels, see what's on, what's coming, everything but cannot actually change to that channel). When I select a channel to change to, it simply dismisses the guide and stays on that channel. I realize the 2nd one is just a bonus thing, but damn, samsung's guide is freaking awesome and I want to use it!

I think I may take this tv back and get the 60" 8500 instead. It was just brighter and crisper. At 64" I honestly believe the resolution starts to become visible. In this case, imo, is where 4k would really shine. I think I'm going to go back down to 60", which seems to be the max for 1080p in regards to maintaining a brighter, more crisp image. Above this and you can start to visibly be able to tell. I will use the 60" 8500 to hold me for 5-6 years and then jump in on an 80" 4k OLED and live happily ever after.

p.s. I came THIS ' ' close to pulling the trigger on the new Sony 65" 4k tv they just received in. It was beautiful except for the flaw of overall blooming that edge lit led's all seem to have. The clouding was minimal, in fact tough to spot at all (VERY tough, I had to get really close on a paused black screen, and even then it was nigh invisible). This tv used some kind of blending new technology that allowed local dimming with the edge lighting... not sure how they did it, but blacks were as black as the bezel, and I'm not exaggerating. I mean BLACK. I hated all the speakers on it though, as someone with a sound system, it was just wasteful. Apparently the sales guy claimed it was somehow a built in 5.1 surround sound system including a built in subwoofer. Again, a big waste and took up too much space on the tv (both sides had like 3 speakers each if I recall). It was an absolute dream to watch this tv though, as the 4k stuff was staggering to say the least. But I had them put in an old dvd to see what it could do with low res and it became apparent to me, the tv lost all it's shock and awe at that point. The 4k demo material was what was dropping jaws and indeed, as I mentioned above, at over 60" (in this case 65") it really proved its worth. At this size and above, 4k is imo greatly needed as just the overall screen size is just too big for 1080p to hold its clarity and detail.

But just my overall impression of this tv was really fantastic! It evicerated the sammy 8500 and vt60 tv's behind it. In a lot of ways, I wish I hadn't seen it, as it raised the bar too high and now my expectations have become unrealistic for my 8500. It's not really fair to it because it was closing in on twice as much cost wise. Still, I had the money to buy it right there and it took all of my being to stop myself from pulling the trigger. If it didn't have the hideous speakers and was a little more impressive with the dvd content, I would have bagged it on the spot. Though my wife was quite proud of me when I got home and relayed the story to her. lol. Still, I sure wish I hadn't viewed it for an hour before pulling the trigger on the 8500.

I should also say, the 60" 8500 was definitely jaw dropping too. And definitely, imo, easily beat out the vt60 right next to it; quite handily in fact. But then I had to be stupid and go wander around the store! I should have went in, bagged the 60" 8500 and walked out with a huge smile and never looked back! Now to just exchange my 64" for the 60" and get the brightness/clarity back I witnessed in the store. Hopefully this will fix the 2 issues I'm having with the sound turning itself off and the dish dvr guide thingy. Is anyone else having these issues or is it just specific to my tv? I'm thinking I just got a bad tv; so it needs replaced anyhow... just also to go down a tad in size.

glad I have nothing like what you state in your 2nd paragraph.
post #5605 of 11459
After updating to 1103.1 I can now use the guide button on the samsung remote to control my cable box and also on the smart hub there is a guide as well that is different from your cable box.

Before it only used your OTA TV input for guide and was difficult to use If you had a cable box.
I am happy about that now I can use the remote for that. smile.gif So I think the new updates are definitely fixing annoyances as well as picture brightness pops etc...

Update: The guide in smart hub shows channel guide list but when you select a channel it changes to HDMI 3 input instead of going to channel on my cable setop box which is set to HDMI1 so maybe its a bug or I need to reset cable box to that input to get it to work. not sure yet. If anyone is using cable box with the TV remote please chime in and tell me If it works for you.
Edited by surfmlb - 5/11/13 at 6:23pm
post #5606 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

With all due respect, you can get off to a pretty good start copying settings compared to OOB settings.
There has to be a disconnect between people who get a pro in and spend at least a few hundred for a decent calibration to someone who just want's better than OOB.

The two things should not be compared as they are not the same. Do you want deluxe or economy? I think the owner can pick and understand the differences.

here's my thought with this though. if there's a calibration setting that works better with 80%(or more) of owners than OOB settings, why wouldn't those be the OOB settings? I don't know if this is a valid argument or not, just a question. I always assumed OOB settings needed to be adjusted because of differences in the room, panel break-in, and differences in the sources. not because the manufacturer is just too lazy to properly calibrate their TV's.

I mean, the dynamic modes are for selling TV's in the bright store, but the rest are usually for 'good' picture quality once it's home. now i'm not saying you shouldn't try other ppl's calibrations, i'm just saying that you're still going to be missing the fine details, and you should view those calibrations as a starting point only. if your room is darker, or brighter, or your walls are a difference colour, or your dvd player outputs a slightly difference signal, etc you have to be willing to make your own adjustments to compensate for those things.
post #5607 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by shpankey View Post

Thank you. So, to be clear... set it to Movie, set Cell at 20, Contrast 90, then go into the Eco Sensor, turn it On, then set the minimum to 20. Back out of all the menus, go back into Eco Sensor and turn it off. Then go to Contrast and put it back to 95? That it?

Yep thats it

But to make it easier after you set the eco sensor to 20 then just go up to the sensor above it and turn it back OFF.

Then back out of the menu and it should be nice and bright.biggrin.gif

Rob
post #5608 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

...you should view those calibrations as a starting point only...

I agree 100%
post #5609 of 11459
Rob, thank you again sir, it seems to have worked for me. Maybe it's placebo, but I can tell and that's all that matters, so much appreciated!


htwaits, thank you sir! I will be canceling the magnolia/best buy/geek squad immediately and get my money back. What is really pissing me off however is that, according to a bb rep here, I should have been offered this service for free, as they have a "1 free calibration per year for silver premium members" to which I am. How upsetting, as I feel like I've been clowned on. I'm not one to argue or try to get things free... if something costs, it costs what it costs and I can say yes or no. But to know that it's something they actually give to everyone as part of a bargaining tool to sell a tv and it just wasn't given to me simply b/c I knew what I wanted and didn't waffle or haggle is quite illuminating as to their used car salesman tactics.

Now, can anyone recommend an ace calibrator in the Oklahoma area coming through in the next few weeks? Please. smile.gif I want someone who cares and has passion.
post #5610 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

Now you sound like a newbie. My out of the box standard statement was referring to a setting not what can be achieved across all settings. Also, that was my point- take the darned thing out of standard and dimness isn't an issue to the point of needing any kind of eyewear. However, on some you may need sunglasses to protect your retinas (too bright). wink.gif

I never seen a plasma which was that bright to make you wear sunglasses.
My point exactly
Quote:
I might be a newbie but I will make my comments as logical as possible. Exaggerations are not made by me.

I disagree.
Quote:
Same time I don't see any logic in what you are talking about Ms. expert smile.gif

Of course you don't, you've lost track of what you said to begin with. cool.gif
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