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Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 212

post #6331 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammie2980 View Post

I don't think anyone is doubting how genuine he is. I mean he obviously is very passionate about what he believes. The only thing I see wrong with it is he is stating his opinion as fact which is subjective and it isn't subjective statements for the most part just absolutes. Which again is off putting.


In the end and I'm not saying this about anyone in particular usually when people purchase something and continue to tout it are usually trying to justify the purchase to themselves and others

Honestly I didn't see anything he stated as facts. Those were all his opinions. For example when I say that ST and VT are dim, dull, lifeless, black and gray TVs then that is my opinion. When I say that Cnet gave ST 5 stars that is a fact, when I say that no matter how many stars Cnet gives the ST they can NEVER justify its dullness then this is my opinion. When I say that the calibrators preferred Panasonic's TVs at the shootout then that is a fact but when I say that they have chosen the wrong TVs then that is opinion. When I say that ST or VT is bright enough that is an opinion but when I say that F8500 is the brightest plasma ever then this is a fact.

Same thing goes for that guy, saying that he liked something more than another thing is just his opinion. Not a fact. Not only this, but I genuinely liked and enjoyed reading all his posts.
post #6332 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

Honestly I didn't see anything he stated as facts. Those were all his opinions. For example when I say that ST and VT are dim, dull, lifeless, black and gray TVs then that is my opinion. When I say that Cnet gave ST 5 stars that is a fact, when I say that no matter how many stars Cnet gives the ST they can NEVER justify its dullness then this is my opinion. When I say that the calibrators preferred Panasonic's TVs at the shootout then that is a fact but when I say that they have chosen the wrong TVs then that is opinion. When I say that ST or VT is bright enough that is an opinion but when I say that F8500 is the brightest plasma ever then this is a fact.

Same thing goes for that guy, saying that he liked something more than another thing is just his opinion. Not a fact. Not only this, but I genuinely liked and enjoyed reading all his posts.

well said... i get tired of the incessant need of using IMO, IMHO, etc....... why is this need to qualify our thoughts?!
post #6333 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

The ST60 can also get PLENTY bright, I totally disagree with geezus on that, they're both equally as bright once you get the ABL under control on the ST60, however, the F8500 has less noticeable ABL activity, but the ST60 is STILL VERY GOOD WHEN IT COMES TO THAT. I personally think the guy had Power save turned on which dramatically increases the ABL function and kills whites.

The ST60 is a very good panel. But the F8500 offers everything that I've wanted in a TV, with the exception of low input lag. However, for input lag, I'm hoping it's possible to either get our way into the firmware ourselves or that Sammy takes note and upgrades their flagship model. Plus, Evo kits. Panny isn't very proactive in getting out firmware (and their software has a ton of bugs, where was the QA???) so overall, I'm much happier with the F8500.

I think geezus is really over blowing it a lot, and I mean that, A LOT. I've had both sets longer than he has and I'm also admittedly more into the finer details as I've calibrated my ST60 and he's stated himself he'd rather cook steaks than fiddle with TV settings. Not knocking the review, but the F8500 doesn't spank the ST60 all around. It does many things a lot better, to me, I'd say it's like having a thin profile CRT and the ST60 is still a plasma. To me, that's worth the extra money right there. Plus, no software bugs that I've noticed yet, and the ST60's menu settings were riddled with bugs.

FWIW.

I'll agree with your review. And it's possible I had Power Save turned on. All I know is that the ABL was abysmal on the ST60 and killed it for me.

You also have to remember I live in a house that has glass walls in the living area. In any environment that is bright, the ST60 really suffers. Like I've said repeatedly, I don't think there's a huge difference between the two IN THE DARK. If you can totally control your lighting, then great. You'll get close to the F8500 with an ST60 in a completely dark room. I've been trying to say that all along.

But if you have any amount of light in your viewing area, it is pretty dramatic. The ST60 and VT60's performance suffers big-time. Once you start adding light to the room, the drop-off in performance on the ST60 is about like what you get when you start moving off-axis with an LCD. The color becomes less vivid, details start getting lost, it becomes less contrasty, and it really drops off quick.

I wish I had taken some pictures before they took the VT60 back. I'm getting angry that people are calling me a liar. I saw what I saw and my girlfriend saw it as well. Even the reviews I've read have openly warned people not to use the Panasonic in a room with light in it. It's not like I'm making that up and I think it's awful that people are trying to downplay that. In a normal room during the daytime, the Panasonic really struggles. The F8500 totally destroys it without giving up anything at night.

And even then, at night or anytime, the F8500 has significantly better detail. Like I said, it's like upgrading from a DVD to BluRay. And was noticeable enough to be noticed by my girlfriend and myself, neither of whom cares enough about tech to own a meter or anything like that. I think that adds credence to my argument, versus these guys with meters who will sit here and argue FL levels with you all day long. They're not paying attention to their eyeballs, they're going purely by what it says on the paper. Get a VT60 into a real living room and then come back here and tell me it doesn't totally suck in daylight.

PS - I had my ST60 profesionally calibrated, and the calibrator even told me he boosted my brightness, gamma and contrast to try to help with the daylight, and even he commented that it probably wouldn't work in my living space. He said he got tons of complaints about the Panasonic panels having trouble with light and he would just recommend people move it to their basement. So I guess if you're okay with watching TV in your basement, it's pretty awesome.
post #6334 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

Honestly I didn't see anything he stated as facts. Those were all his opinions. For example when I say that ST and VT are dim, dull, lifeless, black and gray TVs then that is my opinion. When I say that Cnet gave ST 5 stars that is a fact, when I say that no matter how many stars Cnet gives the ST they can NEVER justify its dullness then this is my opinion. When I say that the calibrators preferred Panasonic's TVs at the shootout then that is a fact but when I say that they have chosen the wrong TVs then that is opinion. When I say that ST or VT is bright enough that is an opinion but when I say that F8500 is the brightest plasma ever then this is a fact.

Same thing goes for that guy, saying that he liked something more than another thing is just his opinion. Not a fact. Not only this, but I genuinely liked and enjoyed reading all his posts.

I really don't understand why the calibrators chose the VT/ZT over the F8500. I wonder if they only cared about the lowest blacks and highest contrast. The F8500 just does things that plasma doesn't do, and it's a plasma! It's a revolutionary plasma, I don't get how the little details passed right by their eyes. No line bleed, c'mon guys, on top of a beautiful picture and the ability to get bright. Plus, the F8500 can get brighter without crushing whites, so even if you aren't pushing it to its brightest limit, the F8500 will still have better whites and still good blacks. And while that may not be important for film content which is limited color range, for RGB material, the F8500 will win again. All around, the F8500 is the better set, especially since it doesn't really behave like a plasma. Oh, plus the F8500 beat them in just about every test patten except 1. That to me, makes a better TV.

Again though, the ST60 was plenty bright. I didn't get to test if it was crushing whites at bright levels, personally I didn't want to turn it up that bright and burn my eyes out. Having seen both sets sitting at home, under my conditions they're both equally as bright, although the ST60 was much more reflective. But dull the ST60 wasn't, especially since I could get very high meter readings from the brightness of it. Just go into service menu, damn software has a bug that pops up the brightness by like 20% fL argh, what a pain!!
Edited by Moonchilde - 5/17/13 at 3:42pm
post #6335 of 11459
So I take it that the 3D popping issue hasn't been fixed? I have this horrible feeling that it won't be, and 3D is a decent part of my viewing experience. Does it affect all 3d, or just some movies? I'm hoping maybe some of my movie won't pop.
post #6336 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by geezuz747 View Post

I'll agree with your review. And it's possible I had Power Save turned on. All I know is that the ABL was abysmal on the ST60 and killed it for me.

You also have to remember I live in a house that has glass walls in the living area. In any environment that is bright, the ST60 really suffers. Like I've said repeatedly, I don't think there's a huge difference between the two IN THE DARK. If you can totally control your lighting, then great. You'll get close to the F8500 with an ST60 in a completely dark room. I've been trying to say that all along.

But if you have any amount of light in your viewing area, it is pretty dramatic. The ST60 and VT60's performance suffers big-time. Once you start adding light to the room, the drop-off in performance on the ST60 is about like what you get when you start moving off-axis with an LCD. The color becomes less vivid, details start getting lost, it becomes less contrasty, and it really drops off quick.

I wish I had taken some pictures before they took the VT60 back. I'm getting angry that people are calling me a liar. I saw what I saw and my girlfriend saw it as well. Even the reviews I've read have openly warned people not to use the Panasonic in a room with light in it. It's not like I'm making that up and I think it's awful that people are trying to downplay that. In a normal room during the daytime, the Panasonic really struggles. The F8500 totally destroys it without giving up anything at night.

And even then, at night or anytime, the F8500 has significantly better detail. Like I said, it's like upgrading from a DVD to BluRay. And was noticeable enough to be noticed by my girlfriend and myself, neither of whom cares enough about tech to own a meter or anything like that. I think that adds credence to my argument, versus these guys with meters who will sit here and argue FL levels with you all day long. They're not paying attention to their eyeballs, they're going purely by what it says on the paper. Get a VT60 into a real living room and then come back here and tell me it doesn't totally suck in daylight.

PS - I had my ST60 profesionally calibrated, and the calibrator even told me he boosted my brightness, gamma and contrast to try to help with the daylight, and even he commented that it probably wouldn't work in my living space. He said he got tons of complaints about the Panasonic panels having trouble with light and he would just recommend people move it to their basement. So I guess if you're okay with watching TV in your basement, it's pretty awesome.

Well, the ST60 is more reflective, so I guess based on your environment the light output might have been losing the battle with the reflections tongue.gif I have a window with blinds and a transparent curtain across from my TV. During the daytime, it would be a slight hindrance to the ST60, but the F8500 handles it like a champ. I have a side window that lets in light, but both sets do an amazing job blocking that out and they're only about 3 feet away from the side window.

Once, I had accidentally enabled the Power Save feature because I wanted to see what it would do. I was looking for bugs because I had already found a few, and I didn't notice anything at first. Then I started seeing a bunch of dimming going on all over the place, and I thought maybe something was up, because it wasn't like that before. Then I checked through the settings and remembered I changed the Power Save feature to on. Yeah, it totally killed it. It drives up the ABL circuit to a ridiculous level, with brightness fluctuations going on left and right I couldn't stand it. So if that was left on by the calibrator or something by accident, then that will kill the experience for sure. But with it off, the set had very little dimming of white content, and could get really bright if you wanted it to. But I did notice reflections during the daytime from the window directly across the room did make it a bit difficult to view at times during early mornings, though I don't feel the whites were washing out at all. I don't know how any human being in their right mind could live with the Power Save feature on. Even grandmas have noticed it lol, and those old folks are coming from ancient CRT's which either had no ABL or the ABL circuit was minute, haha!
post #6337 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by crmmoore View Post

So I take it that the 3D popping issue hasn't been fixed? I have this horrible feeling that it won't be, and 3D is a decent part of my viewing experience. Does it affect all 3d, or just some movies? I'm hoping maybe some of my movie won't pop.

Nah, the fluctuations are still there. But I don't think it's that bad, it happens sometimes. It's kinda like when you're watching film in a projector and a frame pops out that's lighter or a dark frame passes by in a bright scene. I don't know, I don't find it that bad but if they did fix it I'd be happy.

Oh, speaking of which, I don't recall noticing it during any 3D gaming content, and Shadow of the Colossus has a stylized HDR lighting that you'd think would set off the fluctuations like crazy. It's mostly a movie thing that I noticed it with, but I don't think it's a deal breaker.
post #6338 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by geezuz747 View Post


If you want a TV that you can play games on, use an HTPC, perhaps do some casual browsing every once in a while, use in a daylit room, watch cartoons or colorful movies, and if you want to see detail in your movies and stuff... I don't think you can beat the F8500.

But again, try it for yourself. .

Indeed.

My friend has an HDMI splitter setup to compare the F8500 to his Kuro 9G. He's spent the past week or so watching both and I've joined him on a number of occasions. Our own mini-shoot out wink.gif

I know it's sometimes heretical to discount the Kuro but man...the F8500 looked so much more attractive to us in plenty of scenes. Some scenes looked nearly identical as far as color, and of course the Kuro has great blacks (although red tinted at times), but then there would be a scene with bright whites or blues, etc and the Kuro looked yellow or gray by comparison. He felt the same way and, mind you, this is a TV he has been extremely happy with. The thing is, the F8500 can do the blacks that plasmas do with the crazy bright whites that LCDs do all in the same display and on screen at the exact same time, with extreme clarity. My set continually blows me away.

Yes yes, yes, I know on paper that other plasmas may be showing accurate white, etc. "White is white". But I don't care if its just perception to luminance or what, - my eyes tell my brain that it looks way better and more like actual white (or any other bright variant of a color).
post #6339 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

I really don't understand why the calibrators chose the VT/ZT over the F8500. I wonder if they only cared about the lowest blacks and highest contrast. The F8500 just does things that plasma doesn't do, and it's a plasma! It's a revolutionary plasma, I don't get how the little details passed right by their eyes. No line bleed, c'mon guys, on top of a beautiful picture and the ability to get bright. Plus, the F8500 can get brighter without crushing blacks, so even if you aren't pushing it to its brightest limit, the F8500 will still have better whites and still good blacks. And while that may not be important for film content which is limited color range, for RGB material, the F8500 will win again. All around, the F8500 is the better set, especially since it doesn't really behave like a plasma.

Again though, the ST60 was plenty bright. I didn't get to test if it was crushing whites at bright levels, personally I didn't want to turn it up that bright and burn my eyes out. Having seen both sets sitting at home, under my conditions they're both equally as bright, although the ST60 was much more reflective. But dull the ST60 wasn't, especially since I could get very high meter readings from the brightness of it. Just go into service menu, damn software has a bug that pops up the brightness by like 20% fL argh, what a pain!!

Yeah that is their opinion and I disagree with them. All they are looking for blacker blacks, good for them. Maybe the Panasonic TVs justify the charge they get by getting a good PQ out of a dull uncalibrated TV, while the F8500 already looks awesome out of the box! Even though with Samsung they didn't face problems calibrating them as they faced problems calibrating Panasonic TVs.

But all that doesn't matter. What I notice is that the general users impression about the F8500 is way more positive than the other TVs. It is good to see that the TV is getting so much love from the users.

Regarding the lag that you have mentioned will it be that noticeable if I'm only using HTPC only with.XBMC to watch movies?
post #6340 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Nah, the fluctuations are still there. But I don't think it's that bad, it happens sometimes. It's kinda like when you're watching film in a projector and a frame pops out that's lighter or a dark frame passes by in a bright scene. I don't know, I don't find it that bad but if they did fix it I'd be happy.

Oh, speaking of which, I don't recall noticing it during any 3D gaming content, and Shadow of the Colossus has a stylized HDR lighting that you'd think would set off the fluctuations like crazy. It's mostly a movie thing that I noticed it with, but I don't think it's a deal breaker.

3D popping is still there but I have information that Samsung is aware of the problem and actively working on it. I feel pretty confident we can all expect a fix that can/will be implemented via firmware. They seem serious about ironing out any problems and making this TV the one to beat.

Hell, I'm even starting to have a glimmer of hope they might look at improving input lag but I have no tangible reason ton this particular issue to believe they will...just hopeful based on their current and previous responsiveness to issues found thus far.
post #6341 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

Yeah that is their opinion and I disagree with them. All they are looking for blacker blacks, good for them. Maybe the Panasonic TVs justify the charge they get by getting a good PQ out of a dull uncalibrated TV, while the F8500 already looks awesome out of the box! Even though with Samsung they didn't face problems calibrating them as they faced problems calibrating Panasonic TVs.

But all that doesn't matter. What I notice is that the general users impression about the F8500 is way more positive than the other TVs. It is good to see that the TV is getting so much love from the users.

Regarding the lag that you have mentioned will it be that noticeable if I'm only using HTPC only with.XBMC to watch movies?

Oh yeah, I noticed the calibration issues, too. With all the benefits of the F8500, I really scratch my head wondering why they chose Panny.

I don't have experience with XBMC, do you use a mouse to get around? If so, then you'll notice the lag. It's the very first thing I noticed once I had my PC hooked up to the TV. You could change the HDMI label to PC or DVI PC (you can select either from a drop down list of names) and it cuts the input lag by nearly half, but you don't get all the picture options. Which, actually, I don't know if it's really that big of a difference. If you do use PC mode, then set the sharpness to about 35, which should closely match a "0" sharpness setting for perfectly square pixels, thats about the one major difference I noticed.

Out of the box I instantly noticed the greens were being pushed, so the color out of the box isn't exactly accurate. But it still looks pleasing, and that counts most, at least until you can get a meter to calibrate it. However, it looks fairly close to how my ST60 looked out of the box, as both were pushing green.
post #6342 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by geezuz747 View Post

He said he got tons of complaints about the Panasonic panels having trouble with light and he would just recommend people move it to their basement.
lol Who is this calibrator that is going to suggest to all his Panasonic customers that they should move their tv to the basement because he cant make it bright enough? biggrin.gif
post #6343 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Oh yeah, I noticed the calibration issues, too. With all the benefits of the F8500, I really scratch my head wondering why they chose Panny.

I don't have experience with XBMC, do you use a mouse to get around? If so, then you'll notice the lag. It's the very first thing I noticed once I had my PC hooked up to the TV. You could change the HDMI label to PC or DVI PC (you can select either from a drop down list of names) and it cuts the input lag by nearly half, but you don't get all the picture options. Which, actually, I don't know if it's really that big of a difference. If you do use PC mode, then set the sharpness to about 35, which should closely match a "0" sharpness setting for perfectly square pixels, thats about the one major difference I noticed.

I view 90% of my media via the HTPC so I have some concerns about setting it to PC Mode. When you say it limits the picture options, do you know which ones? I have all the processing stuff turned off anyway, so it might not matter, but I don't want to tweak my color settings as I'm very happy with it how it is now.

Also, do you know which setting might help with the grainy look? I've heard there is some setting that controls that. Is that setting disabled in PC mode?

I can always look at my manual when I get home tonight, just wondering if you knew off-hand.

Thanks in advance.
post #6344 of 11459
Guys, a question. When you swap a tv because of an issue (band etc), samsung gives you a complete new set or a refurbished one?
post #6345 of 11459
G
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

1: Latest firmware hasn't lost any detail for me, detail is one thing the set is great at

2: 3D is good, I already wrote up a pretty significant amount on it

3: Extremely minimal line bleed. I wrote up about this too. It behaves exactly like my Sony CRT for line bleed, they both have it exactly the same way. Only certain material triggers it, and its more like a ghostly line rather than the usual plasma line bleed everyone is used to seeing. But keep in mind, that the line bleed is not normal plasma line bleed, so if you never noticed it on a PC CRT monitor, you won't notice it on a F8500

4: Lots of mouse lag. Lots and lots. I don't know how anyone can't notice it. PC mode is a lot better, but it's still higher than the norm. PC mode is about 5 frames of lag (about 10 ms less than ST60, but they're still clocking in 5 frames) which I've already tested and normal TV mode is about 8 frames of lag. It's extremely noticeable in normal TV operation without renaming the input to PC.

5: I've tried out several settings. Things look really good on the TV, but I haven't yet had a chance to meter it. Once I do, I'm sure it will look a whole lot better. It even looks good in PC mode, and even without the black optimizer, the blacks are still black and it's definitely on par with my ST60, if not better.

Ok, I also had a ST60 for about a month and a UT50 for 2 weeks before that. The ST60 was a very nice TV from a PQ standpoint. Almost as good as a F8500. But what makes the F8500 really stand out compared to it is how CRT like it is, rather than how good of a plasma it is. So let me elaborate: Line bleed. ST60 and all the other plasmas I've seen have it, on all material. The F8500 has line bleed but in the way my CRT does, it isn't plasma like in the slightest. That alone is a reason this TV is so much better. The blacks are just as good as the ST60. The color reproduction on the ST60 is however, just as good as the F8500. They both look incredible from that perspective. The ST60 can also get PLENTY bright, I totally disagree with geezus on that, they're both equally as bright once you get the ABL under control on the ST60, however, the F8500 has less noticeable ABL activity, but the ST60 is STILL VERY GOOD WHEN IT COMES TO THAT. I personally think the guy had Power save turned on which dramatically increases the ABL function and kills whites.

The ST60 is a very good panel. But the F8500 offers everything that I've wanted in a TV, with the exception of low input lag. However, for input lag, I'm hoping it's possible to either get our way into the firmware ourselves or that Sammy takes note and upgrades their flagship model. Plus, Evo kits. Panny isn't very proactive in getting out firmware (and their software has a ton of bugs, where was the QA???) so overall, I'm much happier with the F8500.

I think geezus is really over blowing it a lot, and I mean that, A LOT. I've had both sets longer than he has and I'm also admittedly more into the finer details as I've calibrated my ST60 and he's stated himself he'd rather cook steaks than fiddle with TV settings. Not knocking the review, but the F8500 doesn't spank the ST60 all around. It does many things a lot better, to me, I'd say it's like having a thin profile CRT and the ST60 is still a plasma. To me, that's worth the extra money right there. Plus, no software bugs that I've noticed yet, and the ST60's menu settings were riddled with bugs.

Edit: Oh right, IR again. The IR is about the same on the F8500 vs the ST60. I see IR from simply tuning the settings on the menu, and I noticed that with both sets. I think it's just how plasma is, that's one thing that won't go away. But the IR is temporary and putting new material on the IR clears it up, or in my case, I've run a white slide which has cleared it up in a few mins since I use a white slide to break in the TV when I'm not using it.

FWIW.

Edit: BTW, I have no bias here. I like the F8500 a lot more, but the ST60 is still a good quality panel. It's just not what I wanted, and has too many drawbacks currently that could be fixed, but not sure if they will.

Good post stating a preference without bashing
post #6346 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

I have no experience with the F8500 TV, but I've not noticed any sharpness or detail lacking on my calibrated ST60, which is the TV I used to test the BD players.

Go look at the F8500 compared to the VT60. You will see what I mean. Unless you see it, you don't know its missing. I don't have any experience with the ST60, so I can't comment on that panel vs. the F8500.
post #6347 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by geezuz747 View Post

I view 90% of my media via the HTPC so I have some concerns about setting it to PC Mode. When you say it limits the picture options, do you know which ones? I have all the processing stuff turned off anyway, so it might not matter, but I don't want to tweak my color settings as I'm very happy with it how it is now.

Also, do you know which setting might help with the grainy look? I've heard there is some setting that controls that. Is that setting disabled in PC mode?

I can always look at my manual when I get home tonight, just wondering if you knew off-hand.

Thanks in advance.

PC mode changes several things:

For one, sharpness. In non-PC mode, sharpness at 0 is basically zero sharpening. The sharpness algorithm is different in each mode. The non-PC mode sharpness acts like a photoshop filter, if you turn it up in the slightest it adds a bunch of artifacts and looks all around terrible. In PC mode, it behaves like a CRT did back in the day, more subtle and you'll want to set it to about 35 for it to look crisp and clear without adding any artifacts. I painstakingly adjusted the controls in PC mode until I found one that was perfect, and 35 it is.

The next thing it does is disable most of the settings under Advanced Settings and Picture Options aside from Color tone and 2 point white balance and HDMI Black Level. The regular controls are still available, and people were calibrating displays back before CMS were regularly added to HDTV, so if you ever wanted, it's still possible to get a good calibration if you choose.

Besides that, not much else. It still has a nice image. 3D is handled a little different, you have to choose how to view the 3D content, in PC mode you have more options for 3D. Enabling 3D for Bluray will put it back into non-PC mode, which is fine and once 3D content is turned off it goes back to PC mode. I think. I'd have to double check.

Grain, do you have sharpness up? That will highlight grain and create artifacts around it so it will look bad. Set to 0 for non-PC mode, should alleviate some of the grain issues. Dithering though is different from grain, so if you see dancing red, green, or blue sparkles (mostly r and g) then that could be a calibration issue (like both colors being driven too much) or the brightness set too high. A good white balance, gamma balance, and brightness setting should help clear up most dithering. Try checking the sharpness first, if it doesn't go away, then in non-PC mode you can enable a grain filter under Advanced Settings.
post #6348 of 11459
^Interesting.
Is there a way to set PC mode efficiently on or off, such as a discrete IR code?
Ideally I'd still like my PS3 to route through my AVR into the TV using only one HDMI input.
post #6349 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubusduck View Post

Go look at the F8500 compared to the VT60. You will see what I mean. Unless you see it, you don't know its missing. I don't have any experience with the ST60, so I can't comment on that panel vs. the F8500.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

I have no experience with the F8500 TV, but I've not noticed any sharpness or detail lacking on my calibrated ST60, which is the TV I used to test the BD players.


Both panels are great at detail. I never had a problem getting detail out of my ST60. But, the F8500 is a much better panel at finer detail. It's all around cleaner. What I mean is, the ST60 would have chroma edge artifacts, in the ST60 thread you can see images someone posted where white text on a blue background or so would have green and red outlines on either side. I have not taken any notice of this on the F8500 to the extreme the ST60 did.

Here is an image:

That I haven't noticed on the F8500, where I noticed it on the ST60. The F8500 has better clarity. It may boil down to the new sub-pixel design of the F8500.
post #6350 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

^Interesting.
Is there a way to set PC mode efficiently on or off, such as a discrete IR code?
Ideally I'd still like my PS3 to route through my AVR into the TV using only one HDMI input.

Nope. But renaming the input isn't hard at all. Hit source, press up, click edit name, select PC from the drop down list. Not all that different from having to go into menu to turn off/on cinema smooth or motion dejudder or any other option.
post #6351 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

lol Who is this calibrator that is going to suggest to all his Panasonic customers that they should move their tv to the basement because he cant make it bright enough? biggrin.gif

It's pretty simple. He told me every TV has a max lumen output that it will be capable of, due to the backlight, panel treatment, etc. As he said, no matter how he calibrates, he can't get around that max output as it is the natural result of a number of factors related to the physical characteristics of the television itself. He told me the max output of my ST60 was about 40-50FL, IIRC, something like that. He took a measurement of the light in my room using a meter one would use in photography, did a quick calculation on an app on his smartphone, and told me very simply that my television wasn't capable of putting out enough light to offset the ambient light in my living area. That was when he suggested I move it to my basement.

The science seemed solid enough to me. And the number he gave me was consistent with posts I found on this very forum from calibrators who everyone here respects greatly, including the dude who put up the slides. That same calibrator was the one who suggested I look into the F8500, and told me its foot-lumen (or light output) rating was much higher than the ST60, and would be high enough to offset the ambient light in my room. And ya know what? So far, what he told me has been true. I can easily watch football games in my living room during the brightest time of day, and I can actually see what's on screen. No matter how much I turned up the brightness on my ST60, I couldn't.

But hey, maybe my eyes are lying, as well as all the reviews and posts from calibrators that I read on this very site, as well as countless others such as CNet. I'm sure all of those people are idiots as well, who just didn't realize they needed to tweak the calibration. What I find odd is that nobody except you seems to have found the proper calibration that makes the ST60 come anywhere close to the output of the F8500. Perhaps that has something to do with the physical characteristics of the TV itself as mentioned by my incompetent calibrator?

So I'm not really sure what your point is except to try to make fun of or discredit me. Which, to be honest, is getting fairly old. I've yet to hear anyone critical of my posts actually come here and share anything factual to back up their arguments. In fact, all they have done is make fun of me and say I'm exaggerating or lying, or some other personal attack. Which, I learned as a young man, is often a cover used by those who have no argument but have an incessant need to feel clever.
post #6352 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

PC mode changes several things:

For one, sharpness. In non-PC mode, sharpness at 0 is basically zero sharpening. The sharpness algorithm is different in each mode. The non-PC mode sharpness acts like a photoshop filter, if you turn it up in the slightest it adds a bunch of artifacts and looks all around terrible. In PC mode, it behaves like a CRT did back in the day, more subtle and you'll want to set it to about 35 for it to look crisp and clear without adding any artifacts. I painstakingly adjusted the controls in PC mode until I found one that was perfect, and 35 it is.

The next thing it does is disable most of the settings under Advanced Settings and Picture Options aside from Color tone and 2 point white balance and HDMI Black Level. The regular controls are still available, and people were calibrating displays back before CMS were regularly added to HDTV, so if you ever wanted, it's still possible to get a good calibration if you choose.

Besides that, not much else. It still has a nice image. 3D is handled a little different, you have to choose how to view the 3D content, in PC mode you have more options for 3D. Enabling 3D for Bluray will put it back into non-PC mode, which is fine and once 3D content is turned off it goes back to PC mode. I think. I'd have to double check.

Grain, do you have sharpness up? That will highlight grain and create artifacts around it so it will look bad. Set to 0 for non-PC mode, should alleviate some of the grain issues. Dithering though is different from grain, so if you see dancing red, green, or blue sparkles (mostly r and g) then that could be a calibration issue (like both colors being driven too much) or the brightness set too high. A good white balance, gamma balance, and brightness setting should help clear up most dithering. Try checking the sharpness first, if it doesn't go away, then in non-PC mode you can enable a grain filter under Advanced Settings.

Excellent post. Thanks a lot. I'm going to try these things and will post back on my results.

I was having so much fun with my new F8500 that I haven't even looked at the manual yet. LOL. You know what they say: RTFM.
post #6353 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by geezuz747 View Post



Many videophiles are the same way. They'll ignore their eyes because a piece of paper says one option is 0.001% better than another, and treat anyone who disagrees with them as a moron and mock them. Never mind that their measurements and graphs are generally beyond the human brain's ability to differentiate. It is tiring, and the main reason why I was only a lurker here until recently.
.

I was thinking the same thing... I, too have fell victim to going by the so called "experts" opinions (namely Cnet), only to be stuck with 2 tvs i'm not happy with,
post #6354 of 11459
I've personally used my own meter to measure the output of the ST60 and at about 52-ish contrast it was hitting 30 fL or about 100 cd/m2. It could easily have hit 50 fL and I'm sure it could hit 60. I don't have a bunch of ambient light, but I do use a colorimeter up against the screen's glass to measure the light output of the panel, so I know the panel itself is capable of going higher than 40 fL without a hitch and I'm pretty sure it could hit 60 if you wanted, but I'm also sure at those levels of brightness it would start crushing whites. Too bad I don't have access to one anymore, I should have measured the top light output of the TV. I know service mode will kick it up about 15 fL on top of what you have it set to in non-service mode, lol. I wonder what the hell the service menu does to kick it up so high, I can still recall vividly how eye searing a cross hatch pattern was in service mode.

Now, the VT60 and ZT would have problems, they can't get bright enough especially not without crushing whites, but they also have better reflective filters than the ST.
post #6355 of 11459
For those who have compared both the F8500 and VT60, how much better is the 3D on the F8500? 8500 a 10 and VT60 a 9?
post #6356 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Both panels are great at detail. I never had a problem getting detail out of my ST60. But, the F8500 is a much better panel at finer detail. It's all around cleaner. What I mean is, the ST60 would have chroma edge artifacts, in the ST60 thread you can see images someone posted where white text on a blue background or so would have green and red outlines on either side. I have not taken any notice of this on the F8500 to the extreme the ST60 did.

Do you have a link to it?
Quote:
Here is an image:

Sorry, I don't know what that is supposed to demonstrate. I guess it's a picture of part of the Home screen banner? I can see fringing on the edges of mine if I look at it with a magnifying glass, where the pixels are better resolved than in that blurry photo. In any case, an actual image file created in a paint program would be better for comparison.
Quote:
That I haven't noticed on the F8500, where I noticed it on the ST60. The F8500 has better clarity. It may boil down to the new sub-pixel design of the F8500.

I think it would be expected to, given that Samsung has enlarged the light-producing part of the pixel relative to the pixel "frame". That said, for finest detail in colors, the ST60 should be set to 1080p Pixel Direct with HDMI mode set to "Photos" to avoid the sharpening that otherwise comes with the former. This is what worked best for me using Spears and Munsil 2nd ed "Color Space Evaluation" and the various chroma bursts. It also clears up the blurring of red text on a blue background on my computer, which I believe is caused by less than complete horizontal chroma resolution which is apparent from the burst patterns. The TV calibrates fine in this mode using Calman 5 and my C3 meter. This mode does imply the "Native" color space which is more saturated than "Normal", but this can be corrected to be at least as good as Normal and better in some ways, such as somewhat tighter luminance sweeps. I believe it was HDTVtest that first noted the chroma peculiarities of the ST60, and I believe he said the ST60 could get full chroma, while the VT60 didn't quite make it. That said, I'm not sure how visible this sort of thing is in normal use...

BTW, ISTR my first ST60 (Jan 2013 mfg date) jacking up the brightness of the Settings Menu as you've mentioned a couple of times. The second one (Mar 2013) does not do that. The white text in the Panasonic menus comes up the same brightness as the white text in XBMC. I thought maybe I had imagined the searing white menu text in the first one, but your messages would seem to confirm it was real. I don't know if the firmware is any different; both sets said they were up to date when I checked. There was about a month in between the two when I was evaluating an S60, and I don't remember what it did. I also found the second ST60 not to flicker as much on the Home screen and at the computer desktop. Buzzing, IR, and RBE was about the same across the three sets, though.
post #6357 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

Do you have a link to it?
Sorry, I don't know what that is supposed to demonstrate. I guess it's a picture of part of the Home screen banner? I can see fringing on the edges of mine if I look at it with a magnifying glass, where the pixels are better resolved than in that blurry photo. In any case, an actual image file created in a paint program would be better for comparison.
I think it would be expected to, given that Samsung has enlarged the light-producing part of the pixel relative to the pixel "frame". That said, for finest detail in colors, the ST60 should be set to 1080p Pixel Direct with HDMI mode set to "Photos" to avoid the sharpening that otherwise comes with the former. This is what worked best for me using Spears and Munsil 2nd ed "Color Space Evaluation" and the various chroma bursts. It also clears up the blurring of red text on a blue background on my computer, which I believe is caused by less than complete horizontal chroma resolution which is apparent from the burst patterns. The TV calibrates fine in this mode using Calman 5 and my C3 meter. This mode does imply the "Native" color space which is more saturated than "Normal", but this can be corrected to be at least as good as Normal and better in some ways, such as somewhat tighter luminance sweeps. I believe it was HDTVtest that first noted the chroma peculiarities of the ST60, and I believe he said the ST60 could get full chroma, while the VT60 didn't quite make it. That said, I'm not sure how visible this sort of thing is in normal use...

BTW, ISTR my first ST60 (Jan 2013 mfg date) jacking up the brightness of the Settings Menu as you've mentioned a couple of times. The second one (Mar 2013) does not do that. The white text in the Panasonic menus comes up the same brightness as the white text in XBMC. I thought maybe I had imagined the searing white menu text in the first one, but your messages would seem to confirm it was real. I don't know if the firmware is any different; both sets said they were up to date when I checked. There was about a month in between the two when I was evaluating an S60, and I don't remember what it did. I also found the second ST60 not to flicker as much on the Home screen and at the computer desktop. Buzzing, IR, and RBE was about the same across the three sets, though.

The image demonstrates how the pixels will blur detail or lose detail because of the edge chroma fringing. If you look at the word Apps (hit Apps menu to see it on your set) you can see on the left, the blue and red pixels and on the right, the green ones, and how they kinda smear a little into the gray. That's a close up someone else took, it's fairly clear enough to see the artifact and that's all the image needed to do. 1080p Pixel Direct will help limit that, but then not every picture mode can display 1080p Direct (say you're playing a console game that only supports native 720, it will scale to 1080 but Pixel Direct will be disabled. 3D will also disable 1080p Pixel Direct...) such as SD material, any scaling modes, and so on. Plus, Pixel Direct adds an additional frame of input lag (which means an additional 16.7 ms that the display is lagging behind audio, in case you're not a gamer, it still matters in a HT setup) so sometimes you don't always want it on.

Yeah, the Native color space is always enforced when Photos is enabled, and it has a lot of green push but thankfully it's correctable. I was never sure if it was truly correctable because I never bothered to get that far in my cal once I realized I wasn't keeping the TV. I'm glad you posted it can be corrected, because I was always curious about that! I always recommended people force Photos mode and leave it at that, because if your TV has to do any scaling, even without 1080p Pixel Direct, it will add sharpening halos like 1080p mode if for example, you set the TV to 1280x1024 PC res. Thankfully, Photos mode defeats it. Still a lame bug though.

The brightness jacking is actually in Service mode. Super easy to test. Put up a 10% 100 IRE pattern, take a measurement with your C3, then enable service mode (hold Vol - press Info 3 to 5 times) and watch the fL jack up about 10% to 20%. Another bug I reported that will probably never get resolved, since the 2012 UT50 did it as well. I feel bad for people who want to calibrate the other picture modes via Service Menu frown.gif

All these little bugs in the software is one reason I took the set back. It was too much. They dropped the bomb on the QA process for menu items and how the programming behaves, like the silly edge sharpening for 1080p Direct and PC resolutions, HDMI Content Auto not working, and so on. How could that pass people's notice?
post #6358 of 11459
Can someone please explain how game mode works? What picture adjustments are off in game mode? Would game mode need it's own calibration? Thanks
post #6359 of 11459
It's relatively the same as PC mode so you're better off using that since it's faster. Game mode and PC mode would need their own calibration vs using Movie mode. The settings in each mode are strictly for those modes.
post #6360 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post

Can someone please explain how game mode works? What picture adjustments are off in game mode? Would game mode need it's own calibration? Thanks

Think of the mode(s) as separate 'inputs', each with their own personal calibration values.
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