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Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 213

post #6361 of 11481
So are there any picture adjustments that can't be made in game mode?
post #6362 of 11481
@geezuz747 : Glad you enjoy the TV, dude. I am really liking mine since I got it this past Monday. Best TV I have owned so far. I am still breaking it in while I watch content. I have never had one professionally calibrated before, so I am trying to decide if I want to do so. Thus far I am pretty happy with the image. I have been using pieandchips' settings he posts in his Sig. Btw, thanks pieandchips for all your hard work and willingness to share your results with us.

I haven't tried enabling Cal Day and Cal Night settings to play around with them. Is there any issue enabling those modes by myself? it doesn't void the warranty or anything does it?
post #6363 of 11481
I just wanted to say thanks to those that were able to answer the few questions I had and all of the useful information. I finally settled on my decision for a display. Damn hard choices this year. Hopefully when i upgrade in again (probably 2015) it won't be as hard. lol
post #6364 of 11481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammie2980 View Post

I just wanted to say thanks to those that were able to answer the few questions I had and all of the useful information. I finally settled on my decision for a display. Damn hard choices this year. Hopefully when i upgrade in again (probably 2015) it won't be as hard. lol

and that was the zt60 right? I think I see you over at HDJ.
post #6365 of 11481
Yeah. I took my wife into Best Buy and had her look at the VT60 and the 8500. Demoed some content. Told her the ZT will look identical to the VT60 just slightly darker but will have a better filter. She chose the ZT for that reason and also for aesthetics. Makes my choice easier because while both are dynamite sets, and either way you cannot go wrong. They were too close for me to decide. I was seriously stressing over it (first world problems rolleyes.gif)

So I let her choose. Plus I have my VT30 calibrated at 33.4 fL so I don't think it will bother me much the brightness.

Either way the 8500 is one hell of a display. I still want to try and get one. Maybe a smaller one for the office.

Thanks again though guys. Enjoy your displays. Samsung kicked ass this year smile.gif
post #6366 of 11481
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Even though I do mostly dark room viewing, the Samsung plasmas have certain characteristics I believe that I prefer over the Panasonics...even though the Panasonics have slightly better blacks. I'm basing this on my experience with an F5300 and ST30...these characteristics appear to be the same in the F8500 and VT60.

I can really relate to that thought!

I had a chance to see a F5500 next to a ST60 and simply preferred the characteristics of the F5500. It appeared brighter, cleaner, and more detailed. I know no one talks about that set here and Best Buy doesn't seem to stock it, but it really has a pleasing picture. If I had decided to save some money, it would of been my choice over the VT60.

I think Samsung is a step ahead of Panasonic when it comes to video processing. It's a very underrated aspect of picture quality. That maybe because it's not easy to measure and many professionals tend to minimize it's importance, but it sure makes a difference in what you see.

With a 60 day return option, I did my best to try to find another set that I would prefer to the F8500. I gave the VT60 every possible chance, but it just fell short. It's almost impossible to tell the difference between it and the VT50, which we have in our bedroom....it does make an excellent bedroom tv by the way. Soft and dim work with very well with sleepy eyes wink.gif

In a nutshell, I was disappointed in Panasonic's 2013 plasma offerings for two reasons: They did not make any noticeable improvement in video processing or brightness. I thought for sure the ZT60 would have improved brightness with the new panel design, but all that did was make it slightly thinner. They had to go to an extreme filter to make it any different than the VT60, resulting in the lowest brightness level I've ever heard of in a plasma. Overall, there was very little, if any noticeable improvement with their 2013 sets.

The F8500 is not perfect...with some content I do not love the picture and there are times I might actually prefer a more traditional plasma, but it can be truly spectacular and produce the greatest picture you can imagine. With the right content, there has never been a plasma like it. No other plasma has ever provided such a bright, clear, stunning picture. As far as ultimate picture quality goes, it's simply the greatest ever. Once you experience that, it's really hard to go back to traditional Panasonic plasma. You'll see cool.gif
post #6367 of 11481
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackobots View Post


I had a chance to see a F5500 next to a ST60 and simply preferred the characteristics of the F5500. It appeared brighter, cleaner, and more detailed. I know no one talks about that set here and Best Buy doesn't seem to stock it, but it really has a pleasing picture. If I had decided to save some money, it would of been my choice over the ST60. <<redface.gif
post #6368 of 11481
moved to another thread
Edited by pieandchips - 5/18/13 at 9:16am
post #6369 of 11481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammie2980 View Post

Yeah. I took my wife into Best Buy and had her look at the VT60 and the 8500. Demoed some content. Told her the ZT will look identical to the VT60 just slightly darker but will have a better filter. She chose the ZT for that reason and also for aesthetics. Makes my choice easier because while both are dynamite sets, and either way you cannot go wrong. They were too close for me to decide. I was seriously stressing over it (first world problems rolleyes.gif)

So I let her choose. Plus I have my VT30 calibrated at 33.4 fL so I don't think it will bother me much the brightness.

Either way the 8500 is one hell of a display. I still want to try and get one. Maybe a smaller one for the office.

Thanks again though guys. Enjoy your displays. Samsung kicked ass this year smile.gif

Congrats! never an easy choice that is for sure. In the end though what matters is that you and your wife are happy smile.gif

looking forward to your future zt60 owners review.
Edited by Ph8te - 5/17/13 at 9:31pm
post #6370 of 11481
What's going on - all the 4K Blu-rays listed for May 14 to 23 at Amazon.ca - not available. FS and BB were suppose to get them in for the 23rd - nowhere in sight?
Still listed at amazon.com, but for how long? Damm, won't get to try that newer version of Total Recall 2012 re the audio dropouts on Bitstream
post #6371 of 11481
wrong thread??? Think you meant to post that in the Blu-ray software section wink.gif
post #6372 of 11481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Oh yeah, I noticed the calibration issues, too. With all the benefits of the F8500, I really scratch my head wondering why they chose Panny.

I don't have experience with XBMC, do you use a mouse to get around? If so, then you'll notice the lag. It's the very first thing I noticed once I had my PC hooked up to the TV. You could change the HDMI label to PC or DVI PC (you can select either from a drop down list of names) and it cuts the input lag by nearly half, but you don't get all the picture options. Which, actually, I don't know if it's really that big of a difference. If you do use PC mode, then set the sharpness to about 35, which should closely match a "0" sharpness setting for perfectly square pixels, thats about the one major difference I noticed.

Out of the box I instantly noticed the greens were being pushed, so the color out of the box isn't exactly accurate. But it still looks pleasing, and that counts most, at least until you can get a meter to calibrate it. However, it looks fairly close to how my ST60 looked out of the box, as both were pushing green.

I use XBMC remote app from the ios store. Once the TV arrives I will report about how is the lag using it
post #6373 of 11481
Quote:
Originally Posted by geezuz747 View Post

I view 90% of my media via the HTPC so I have some concerns about setting it to PC Mode. When you say it limits the picture options, do you know which ones? I have all the processing stuff turned off anyway, so it might not matter, but I don't want to tweak my color settings as I'm very happy with it how it is now.

Also, do you know which setting might help with the grainy look? I've heard there is some setting that controls that. Is that setting disabled in PC mode?

I can always look at my manual when I get home tonight, just wondering if you knew off-hand.

Thanks in advance.

I personally like the grainy look. Grain is part of the film look unless what you are seeing is noise then that is different. If grain is not present in a bluray movie then there is something wrong. But noise should be kept to the minimum not to affect the experience
post #6374 of 11481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

I use XBMC remote app from the ios store. Once the TV arrives I will report about how is the lag using it

When does your F8500 arrive?
post #6375 of 11481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

When does your F8500 arrive?

Was supposed to be on the 16th but Samsung informed me that it is delayed until June. So expecting it first week of June frown.gif
They said many orders are being placed for this TV and they were not able to cope with that.
post #6376 of 11481
I see many new 64F8500 owners but nobody mentioned anything about the faint horizontal band in light backrounds. What happened? New improved batch? Does anyone have may 2013 build?
post #6377 of 11481
Quote:
Originally Posted by geezuz747 View Post

Tim Akin -

If you have a chance, I would. IMHO, there is no comparison between the 2. Even in a really dark room, I still think the F8500 has better color and detail, and noticeably so. I'm actually surprised at all the reviews that seem to pick the Panasonic T60 panels as the "best." I just think they're so dim it takes away from the experience.

Although, in a perfectly black environment, the ST60 is a great panel, don't get me wrong. I was worried when I exchanged it that I wouldn't be as happy with the F8500. That's why I tried the VT60 first. In a dark room, the picture on the ST60 is truly stunning. I had it right next to my Kuro that everyone raves about, and I think it has a slightly better picture than the Kuro.

I honestly don't understand the reviews either. I think people are going too much by what it says on paper. Like scientific results. Well, this TV has the better gamut and color space is most accurate so it must be the best picture, right?

When it comes down to it, it's what YOU see with your own eyes that counts. My eyes definitely prefer the picture on the F8500. As I said, if I had the ST60 on order, I'd cancel in a heartbeat and try to find a deal on the F8500, even if it was a slightly smaller size. The extra detail alone is like going from DVD to BluRay.

Very nice review geezuz. Your observations, for the most part, fall in line with what I've seen. I also like your reference point coming from both a VT and ST, that's important.

What you noticed very quickly with the relative behavior of the ABL in these panels is hard to miss. Yet you still get guys in other threads saying a) you're exaggerating its importance b) for the most part you only see it during commercials when the screen goes full white and c) it's not really important in dark room viewing and I should stop talking about it

As you've seen first-hand, a, b, and c are just nonsense. I can't, IMO, over-emphasize the importance of ABL in the accuracy of the overall picture's 'look'. It speaks to a far greater dynamic range, just like the world we live in. Rather than have even an overcast sky dim noticeably on a more aggressive ABL panel, the 8500 does a far better job of maintaining the natural brightness of that sky.

I think many are in denial of the importance of it or really don't have the reference points that you and I have had to truly appreciate its importance. smile.gif
post #6378 of 11481
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

So you had the VT60 in your home and it was broken in and professionally calibrated in a few days ?

So let's assume it wasn't professionally calibrated. His 8500 wasn't either. Seems like apples to apples to me. wink.gif
Edited by Ken Ross - 5/18/13 at 5:31am
post #6379 of 11481
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Yea, that's not a red flag.rolleyes.gif

Yeah, seems we can always count on 'red flags' from you guys with any positive or glowing 8500 reviews (especially when they're compared to the Panasonics), whether they're from personal reviews like geezuz's or the shootout. rolleyes.gif

Geezuz, you can expect more comments like these with your review. Some get all bent out of shape with these comparisons. wink.gif
post #6380 of 11481
Okay, here is something that is bothering me on my F8500. When there is a striped shirt or lines around a poster for example, they squiggle, they move. I don't know what you can this effect, but it is more prevalent than on my other plasma's. I'm having the set calibrated on Friday, so that may help, but none of the adjustments I've tried have made any improvement. Any suggestions?
post #6381 of 11481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

Was supposed to be on the 16th but Samsung informed me that it is delayed until June. So expecting it first week of June frown.gif
They said many orders are being placed for this TV and they were not able to cope with that.

Ouch frown.gif

Ken, the one red flag IMO was the claim the ST60 wasn't bright and couldn't get brighter than 40 to 50 fL. I've had both of the sets in the same space in the same conditions and they're both plenty bright. I feel like the F8500 is more "pure" if you will than the ST60, but I never had any problems getting it to be bright and ABL was pretty minimal for most content. For what it's worth, I did measure a full white screen drop to about 15 - 20 fL compared to a 10% window at 30. Still looked white and most normal content was able to output a lot of light. It obviously has ABL, but not noticeable dimming and fluctuations, and not nearly as aggressive as the 2012 UT50. Cloudy scenes never looked overcast and I watched the movie Cast Away on the ST60, which has plenty of blue sky and clouds scenes plus bright sparkly ocean water. I spent a good deal of time with it and I've viewed the same content on it as the F8500. I just don't like when people are going to walk away thinking the set is dim when it measured pretty well, in fact service mode made it pop up by about 15 fL so I know the panel could burn retinas if you wanted it to.

In fact, I do my best to claim no bias, and I'll say outright the ST60 is a nice, bright high PQ panel. However, the difference between the two panels is how they handle the little things. The F8500 is a step above, it's almost like it isn't even a plasma, it's just so damn good at what it does. The ST60 is "just another plasma," and the F8500 has evolved beyond what we expect to see in a plasma. All the artifacts, if you will, that people would see on a ST60 and say "oh, that's just plasma" don't happen on the F8500, and that's why I love it. I can't stress that enough.

I wish I was at the shoot out, lol, because I'd talk some sense into those calibrators about how the F8500 is superior at displaying non-film content over its peers. Too bad I couldn't post any observations prior to it, I would have appreciated it if you had been there to tell them that the line bleed is gone and so on. Oh well. They're missing out.
post #6382 of 11481
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackobots View Post

Okay, here is something that is bothering me on my F8500. When there is a striped shirt or lines around a poster for example, they squiggle, they move. I don't know what you can this effect, but it is more prevalent than on my other plasma's. I'm having the set calibrated on Friday, so that may help, but none of the adjustments I've tried have made any improvement. Any suggestions?

It sounds like an interlaced line artifact you get with 1080i broadcasts and I'd bet the more detailed the display is the more prevalent that effect would be. It's one of the reasons they would always tell on-camera talent to avoid wearing clothing like that. What material are you watching when you see this?
post #6383 of 11481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Ouch frown.gif

Ken, the one red flag IMO was the claim the ST60 wasn't bright and couldn't get brighter than 40 to 50 fL. I've had both of the sets in the same space in the same conditions and they're both plenty bright. I feel like the F8500 is more "pure" if you will than the ST60, but I never had any problems getting it to be bright and ABL was pretty minimal for most content. For what it's worth, I did measure a full white screen drop to about 15 - 20 fL compared to a 10% window at 30. Still looked white and most normal content was able to output a lot of light. It obviously has ABL, but not noticeable dimming and fluctuations, and not nearly as aggressive as the 2012 UT50. Cloudy scenes never looked overcast and I watched the movie Cast Away on the ST60, which has plenty of blue sky and clouds scenes plus bright sparkly ocean water. I spent a good deal of time with it and I've viewed the same content on it as the F8500. I just don't like when people are going to walk away thinking the set is dim when it measured pretty well, in fact service mode made it pop up by about 15 fL so I know the panel could burn retinas if you wanted it to.

In fact, I do my best to claim no bias, and I'll say outright the ST60 is a nice, bright high PQ panel. However, the difference between the two panels is how they handle the little things. The F8500 is a step above, it's almost like it isn't even a plasma, it's just so damn good at what it does. The ST60 is "just another plasma," and the F8500 has evolved beyond what we expect to see in a plasma. All the artifacts, if you will, that people would see on a ST60 and say "oh, that's just plasma" don't happen on the F8500, and that's why I love it. I can't stress that enough.

I wish I was at the shoot out, lol, because I'd talk some sense into those calibrators about how the F8500 is superior at displaying non-film content over its peers. Too bad I couldn't post any observations prior to it, I would have appreciated it if you had been there to tell them that the line bleed is gone and so on. Oh well. They're missing out.

Yeah, I'd agree the ST60 (from what I've heard, I've never seen it) is bright and certainly brighter than the VT60. When I mentioned the 'overcast skies' in response to geezus' post, I recalled one of my last comparisons between the VT60 & 8500. One scene, as it was panning, brought an overcast sky into about 40-50% of the scene. At that point the VT60 dimmed noticeably, especially compared to the 8500 which didn't dim at all. The difference was truly stark. As I said, that was one of my last comparisons and the one that really made me feel I could live happily with plasma again coming from a Sharp Elite.

So although I can't speak to the ABL of the ST, I can the VT having seen this kind of impact many times.
post #6384 of 11481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teknicolor View Post


I haven't tried enabling Cal Day and Cal Night settings to play around with them. Is there any issue enabling those modes by myself? it doesn't void the warranty or anything does it?

The warranty won't be voided if you follow directions. The following is for the F8000 but the 8500 will be the same or very close.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1463286/official-samsung-unxxf8000-owners-thread/180#post_23142413
post #6385 of 11481
Ken,

It looks like we have some vindication regarding our observation that the Sammy is sharper than the Pannys - Tom Norton from HT Mag concurs.


http://www.hometheater.com/content/value-electronics-hdtv-shootout-and-then-there-were-three-page-2
post #6386 of 11481
Some calibrators claimed that F8500 is sharper due to its brightness other say it is because of its contrast
How come they are not saying this is because of Samsung's video processing? Why the conflicting reports?

Here is what HDTVtest website say in their review of F8500
We’ve heard some online discussion where it’s claimed that the PS64F8500 has a “sharper” image than other plasma televisions. Given that basically every recent 1080p plasma display panel has been able to resolve at least full static detail from a 1920×1080 source (let’s ignore plasma-centric issues like gradation and dithering for a second), we’re not sure what the basis of these is, but we’d imagine that it has a lot to do with the F8500′s superior contrast performance, which could be said to make images appear perceptibly sharper.
post #6387 of 11481
A quick question. Are you guys still getting the error message re the camera when the camera is tucked in and the TV is first turned on?
post #6388 of 11481
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

The warranty won't be voided if you follow directions. The following is for the F8000 but the 8500 will be the same or very close.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1463286/official-samsung-unxxf8000-owners-thread/180#post_23142413

Buzz those work, but for those venturing in the Service Menu heed the warnings of the post as if you deviate there can be some serious damage done.......BTW you will need a "regular" remote for the best results and easiest time to follow those instructions....
post #6389 of 11481
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teknicolor View Post


I haven't tried enabling Cal Day and Cal Night settings to play around with them. Is there any issue enabling those modes by myself? it doesn't void the warranty or anything does it?
Just don't go in the service menu and play around. There are some that where said to have rendered there set useless in the service mode, that is NOT covered under warranty.
post #6390 of 11481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

Some calibrators claimed that F8500 is sharper due to its brightness other say it is because of its contrast
How come they are not saying this is because of Samsung's video processing? Why the conflicting reports?

Here is what HDTVtest website say in their review of F8500
We’ve heard some online discussion where it’s claimed that the PS64F8500 has a “sharper” image than other plasma televisions. Given that basically every recent 1080p plasma display panel has been able to resolve at least full static detail from a 1920×1080 source (let’s ignore plasma-centric issues like gradation and dithering for a second), we’re not sure what the basis of these is, but we’d imagine that it has a lot to do with the F8500′s superior contrast performance, which could be said to make images appear perceptibly sharper.

Samsung hasn't promoted it recently but beginning in 2011 (D8000) they have been using a local contrast enhancement (LCE) algorithm in their top models. This is probably the source of the perceptual difference in sharpness compared to other 1080p panels. This algorithm works on local groups of pixels, ~100x100 for the D8000, and is most evident when there are brighter objects against more uniform contrast scenes. It can appear to "lift" the objects out of the background in a pseudo-3D effect. Anyone who has used a darblet knows what this looks like, and Samsung panels make use of the same principle although the darblet works on a pixel by pixel basis to adjust local luminance.

LCE in Samsung plasmas which employ it can only be disabled via special commands in the service menu which is unfortunate because then you could compare on/off images for various material and see the difference. I have been able to do this on my D8000 as well as turn the LCE gain up and down to find a nice operating point.
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