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Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 239

post #7141 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oplasmic View Post

I have now just noticed while using my PS3 through HDMI 2 input that my blacks have disappeared. The image is totally washed out. If I use HDMI 3 input, all is fine. I tried messing with the settings but all the settings are the same for each input. Any idea what might have caused this?
Check the TV's HDMI Black Level in Picture Options.
post #7142 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Look, you can get a defect in any set from any manufacturer and then you're in the same position of arguing with a CS rep for an exchange. Frankly that rationale for putting the 8500 at a disadvantage (if that's what you're thinking), makes no sense to me. I've seen no stats that say you have a better or worse chance of arguing with a CS rep from one display to another.

I don't think it puts the 8500 at a disadvantage, no.

How quickly was the response given to Dave, "turn off black optimizer and blacks will be stable, this is inherent in the way samsung drives its panels."

That's the kind of stuff that scares me.
post #7143 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

It's hard to believe that you posted less than 3 hours ago -- and now it's three pages back.

The slight rise in your Gamma point curve is so little that I doubt it makes any visible difference in picture quality. The small peak means that there is a very, very slight reduction in output at 90% stimulus. This could be a characteristic of the model as you suggest.

It may be an indication that clipping is occurring. You can check for clipping using the AVSHD white clipping pattern -- you should see flashing bars at or above line 235. If not, reduce the Contrast control a bit until 235 flashes.

It may be an indication that ABL is kicking in. If so, it is so slight though that you'll not notice it.

If it bothers you and it is not fixed by adjusting the Contrast, fiddling a lot with the ninth and tenth 10- point controls may bring it back in line, Change them in a ganged manner -- moving R, G, and B together in the same direction.

Larry

Thanks, It's not clipping and I think you mean 'at or below line 235 wink.gif
It doesn't bother me enough to worry smile.gif

Thanks again.
post #7144 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

We're way too early into the life cycle of this thing to claim any issues are certain anomaly.

For one, you say there are multiple professional reviews, but don't admit exactly how many sets this consists of. What, maybe five? Ten? And yet you think 2 instances of an issue recorded on one tiny slice of the internet means it's not prevalent? Out of how many total sets manufactured? Neither camp (pro reviews & AVS reviews) is even a full percentage of the pool, much less a sufficient sample.

I don't see how you can make that claim at this point.

We're going in circles and I don't agree with your logic at all. The numbers are clearly pointing toward this not being a widespread problem in either numbers or the magnitude since if it is widespread people aren't seeing it.

Using your logic and the number of different issues from every manufacturer, you shouldn't buy anything.

I really don't think you should buy the 8500, I really don't. You've whipped this up to be such a potentially major issue, no good can come of it. I'd almost guarantee you won't be happy with the set. I'm very serious.

I think we've beaten this one to death. I'm done. Nighty night all, I've got a 7am flight tomorrow. smile.gif
post #7145 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

'Either it's there or not' makes the potentially huge jump in logic that every 8500 suffers from it. At this point that's unknown and in fact, evidence points to the opposite. If it is true, then we have a phenomena that almost nobody can see, reviewers and calibrators included. Dave and Air would be the only two we know about.

So the better bet may be that a very few sets suffer from it. For one of our two owners it's no biggie and for the other it may be.

As for firmware updates, I know of no TV manufacturer that has delivered more in this area than Samsung with the 8500. To me, that provides significantly better comfort than I'd get with the other issues from other manufacturers.

Perhaps poorly worded. Either the issue exists on some sets, or it doesn't exist at all. People saying the flickering in 24p on those older Panasonics wasn't really an issue happened. Some people get defensive and downplay things- but it's rather black and white. Yes it exists, no it's a fairy-tale.

How many pro reviews have you seen that make 2 reports of this issue such a small, insignificant sample? You'd have to be at least an order of magnitude greater (20) if not multiple. I don't see how you can make the determination that this is a certain anomaly this early into the life cycle and so many manufactured units yet to be tested by anyone with the ability to understand these things.
post #7146 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

Thanks, It's not clipping and I think you mean 'at or below line 235 wink.gif
It doesn't bother me enough to worry smile.gif

Thanks again.

No, I mean at or above line 235.

Larry
post #7147 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSIG1001 View Post

Dave why dont you just return the set and pick up a VT60 , i think you will be pleased with bluray playback , blacks and motion handling . The movies at night are so amazing the black bars disapear and the shawdow detail is incredible with out of the box settings . I use THX cinema at night and THX bright room during the day. Color reproduction is only as good as the source . Everything about the VT looks natural and just right . As ken ross stated use your eyes and i did visually look at both 65" or 64" prior to buying and noticed that the F8500 had too much judder. Maybe this was before the updates idk.. I know for a fact both sets were on vivid in the store on really crappy settings and to me the VT60 looked more natural and had better motion handling and handled blacks much better on the HD and bluray feeds .. Maybe too i have only owned 5 pannys since 2007 and nothing else i.e. LEDs or samsungs. When i got home and set it to THX settings with no modification besides 96hz setting for bluray it put a big smile on my face

I may consider it, but am probably leaning more towards the ST60, but we'll. It seems the VT and ST60 performance for 2D in a dark room is so damn close - yet 1K cheaper! Chad B will end up ultimately calibrating whichever set I end up marrying.
post #7148 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

No, I mean at or above line 235.

Larry

I see flashing 230-234 and very, very slightly 235.
post #7149 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Perhaps poorly worded. Either the issue exists on some sets, or it doesn't exist at all. People saying the flickering in 24p on those older Panasonics wasn't really an issue happened. Some people get defensive and downplay things- but it's rather black and white. Yes it exists, no it's a fairy-tale.

How many pro reviews have you seen that make 2 reports of this issue such a small, insignificant sample? You'd have to be at least an order of magnitude greater (20) if not multiple. I don't see how you can make the determination that this is a certain anomaly this early into the life cycle and so many manufactured units yet to be tested by anyone with the ability to understand these things.

You know before I turned in I couldn't help but notice that of your 13 posts, 11 were negative posts relating to the 8500. I'd hate to see what's number 2 on your list. wink.gif
post #7150 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I really don't think you should buy the 8500, I really don't. You've whipped this up to be such a potentially major issue, no good can come of it. I'd almost guarantee you won't be happy with the set. I'm very serious.

Since you both know that I wouldn't be happy if I received a set with this issue, and I also would be happy with this set if I didn't have this issue it seems you are implying (and seriously, to boot) it is likely I could receive a set with this issue.

Which flies in the face of your whole argument here (being a rare anomaly, clearly not widespread, etc...). confused.gif
post #7151 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Every time I get down on this thread with the nonsense that we see, we get posts like yours and bargervais' that show what a thread like this should look like. People helping people. Nice! smile.gif

+111111111
I've said it before and I'll say it again I sure wish we had a" Official Samsung F8500 OWNERS Thread"...
I'm just so tired of those who come here with absolutely no intent of getting F8500 rather just look just for any possible reason to take a jab at the f8500 or do their best to disrupt what its meant to be a forum to help fellow F8500 owners or possible future owners..
post #7152 of 11459
Well, spent a fair amount of time tonight exploring the floating blacks (or whatever you want to call it). All of the floating blacks I am seeing are repeatable no matter where the Dark Optimizer is set. I can even give you time stamps if you own Season 1 of Star Trek TOS. However, I suspect other content would be able to produce it. Even looking at test and pluge patterns, I cannot see any black level change or difference no matter where the Dark Optimizer is at; perhaps it's somewhat dynamic and depends on a scene with some contrast. But, I watched several of the same scenes over and over again with the Dark optimizer off, bright room, and dark room - I couldn't detect any changes. Now, Cinema Smooth is a different matter where the blacks noticeably rise (as has been reported), but they still float. I also tried more combinations of cell light and contrast, but makes no difference.
Edited by DavidHir - 5/23/13 at 8:06pm
post #7153 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

You know before I turned in I couldn't help but notice that of your 13 posts, 11 were negative posts relating to the 8500. I'd hate to see what's number 2 on your list. wink.gif

Don't know that I've made a single negative post about the F8500, please enlighten. I don't believe I've said a positive thing about competing sets in this thread either. In fact, I've only mentioned negative aspects of the VT60.

These kinds of posts are silly, and add nothing to the discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinger View Post

I'm just so tired of those who come here with absolutely no intent of getting F8500 rather just look just for any possible reason to take a jab at the f8500 or do their best to disrupt what its meant to be a forum to help fellow F8500 owners or possible future owners..

Please provide proof that I am not a possible future owner. And if not, what the heck I am going to own because I really don't know what it would be if I cross F8500 and VT60 off the list. (Not saying that I am, and of course I'm not, but you seem to know better than even I do.)
post #7154 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

Check the TV's HDMI Black Level in Picture Options.

Bingo! It was on Normal, switched it to Low, all good again. Thanks Pie!
post #7155 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

I see flashing 230-234 and very, very slightly 235.

You are at the edge of clipping. Reduce Contrast by a tick or two.

Larry
post #7156 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Dave, just got an email from Robert and yes, they are working on further improving FBs. Apparently one of the updates already attacked that issue, but another one may be coming. No ETA.

But after hearing Air, maybe this isn't FBs at all. Not even sure what to call it. Let's see what the prevalence of this is and maybe that would give you some guidance on swapping it if it continues to bother you.

Just a thought.

Thanks for the update. If they could nail this issue down (whatever you want to call it - to me seems like floating blacks) I could be happy with this set.
post #7157 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Well, spent a fair amount of time tonight exploring the floating blacks. All of the floating blacks I am seeing are repeatable no matter where the Dark Optimizer is set. I can even give you time stamps if you own Season 1 of Star Trek TOS. However, I suspect other content would be able to produce it. Even looking at test and pluge patterns, I cannot see any black level change or difference no matter where the Dark Optimizer is at; perhaps it's somewhat dynamic and depends on a scene with some contrast. But, I watched several of the same scenes over and over again with the Dark optimizer off, bright room, and dark room - I couldn't detect any changes. Now, Cinema Smooth is a different matter where the blacks noticeably rise (as has been reported), but they still float. I also tried more combinations of cell light and contrast, but makes no difference.
LOLOLOLOLOL!!! I've been trying to tell everyone on this thread throughout the day, especially Mr. Nfraso, that setting black optimizer has no Visual effect on the screen.....He probably won't believe you either, but he's been defending you all day in this thread!! This is so funny!!!
post #7158 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

You are at the edge of clipping. Reduce Contrast by a tick or two.

Larry

biggrin.gif

That's where this TV starts to play tricks on you. From below contrast level 94, there is no change to the flashing bars.
I believe 94 is the max sweet spot.
post #7159 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Well a suggestion maybe, one of the owners who will be remaing an owner, may want to start an official owners thread. This way it can appease those who want to post what they want to thier hearts content in this thread while seperating the "owner" and possible future owner talk. Its a shame as there is so much good information in this one........I really dont think its needed tbh, as none of the sets this year really have an "owners thread".....

As much as I like the theory, I've seen the same thing we see here in virtually every owner's thread I've seen. I really don't believe these guys will have any more respect there than here. But that's just MO.
In an "owners" thread you can red flag posts that are not asking for technical help or giving it. It helps even more if owners don't take the bait. wink.gif
post #7160 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post

LOLOLOLOLOL!!! I've been trying to tell everyone on this thread throughout the day, especially Mr. Nfraso, that setting black optimizer has no Visual effect on the screen.....He probably won't believe you either, but he's been defending you all day in this thread!! This is so funny!!!

How is that funny, it wasn't my claim:
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

turn off black optimizer and blacks will be stable, this is inherent in the way samsung drives its panels.

Also, it seems Dave is stuck with the issue regardless of any settings- so I don't find that funny either.

I also don't understand why Ken and others are saying this isn't floating blacks, but Ken also claims that they are working on "further improving" floating blacks...

Which is it?

Furthermore, your claim that black optimizer has "no visual effect on the screen" is at odds with what Ken is saying here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

The bottom line is that almost everyone leaves the optimizer on and that's the only fair way to measure its blacks

Either way, I hope Dave's issue is identified by Samsung and addressed in a firmware update. I don't know why I'm not allowed to care about this before dropping $3K, but for those that don't feel free to ignore and move along.
post #7161 of 11459
Quote:
When Dave turns black optimizer off and it solves the issue these attendees also presumably notice, do they all now miss the fact that his set has barely better than ST30 blacks? Or is Dave the only one seeing this in the room?
nfraso, you just told Ken this a couple hours ago....was this all conjecture? Dave's issue with picture bleed into the black bar region is something only a couple of people on this thread have noticed.....no way is Samsung going to try and fix this problem when only two people so far have identified it. Besides, I tried doing some online research about this phenomenon, and it looks like other tv manufacturers had this anomaly before, but with no real resolution other than turning down brightness, contrast, etc. Not a viable option, imo. Some owners noticed it, others didn't. Some felt they had a defective tv, etc. etc.
Edited by DanF8500 - 5/23/13 at 8:33pm
post #7162 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

biggrin.gif

That's where this TV starts to play tricks on you. From below contrast level 94, there is no change to the flashing bars.
I believe 94 is the max sweet spot.

Then your source is sending 16 - 235. If there is no pinking on a full screen 100% white pattern, you are okay.

Larry
post #7163 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Then your source is sending 16 - 235. If there is no pinking on a full screen 100% white pattern, you are okay.

Larry

Yes, sorry, I assumed you knew that from my previous discussions. I am shooting ycbcr from my HTPC.
post #7164 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Not even sure what this means, but it's surely not worth pursuing.
No, actually just quite a bit of corrections regarding embellishments, distortions and inaccuracies. I know you'd love for me and others to let you guys do the 'hit & run' game and leave your inaccuracies unanswered. When these go unanswered, they take on the appearance of fact. Of course that's what some who come to this thread hope for. Ain't happening. I and others will continue to address the distortions.
Well then Vinnie, it's pretty obvious the ZT/VT has the same issues as the 8500, they just haven't been discovered yet. See, I can get every bit as bizarre with my posts as you. It's actually pretty easy.

I also had to smile when you changed your characterization of FBs to 'light spillage' as the result of Air more accurately stating what he saw. So if the next 'ailment' that someone points out is the 8500 suffers from 'sprained ankles', I'm sure we can read that repeated ad nauseum by you and your buddies.

As for the shootout thread, I'm done with that. One of the more repulsive threads I've seen on AVS in some time. I've made my decision on a panel and, unlike you, have no interest in threads discussing panels I'm not considering.

Enjoy your precious when you get it. Perhaps then and only then you'll have something better to do than spend your time here taking shots at the 8500.
This is exactly what I mean, you have appointed yourself as judge, jury, and executioner and assigned everyone into little groups. They are not my "buddies," but the constant desire to make this personal really brings out the pettiness that you pretend to be above. I changed my characterization of the problem because it was apparently misinterpreted from the beginning. How dare I try to get a better handle on the issue an owner is facing. cool.gif
post #7165 of 11459
*In between the flames, there are some good bits. You just have to find them*

pieandchips 2013
post #7166 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

*In between the flames, there are some good bits. You just have to find them*

pieandchips 2013
Well said, Pie!!
post #7167 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

In an "owners" thread you can red flag posts that are not asking for technical help or giving it. It helps even more if owners don't take the bait. wink.gif
I know from experience that you and Ken are already keenly aware that you can report someone in this thread just as easily as any other.
post #7168 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post

nfraso, you just told Ken this a couple hours ago....was this all conjecture? Dave's issue with picture bleed into the black bar region is something only a couple of people on this thread have noticed.....no way is Samsung going to try and fix this problem when only two people so far have identified it. Besides, I tried doing some online research about this phenomenon, and it looks like other tv manufacturers had this anomaly before, but with no real resolution other than turning down brightness, contrast, etc. Not a viable option, imo. Some owners noticed it, others didn't. Some felt they had a defective tv, etc. etc.

I need to get to bed - time flies going through this stuff. lol But, doing some more experiments, contrast seems to be play a bigger role with the issue - not so much with cell light. Perhaps it is more of a leakage of white spilling into black vs pure floating issue. When I turned cell down to 1 and contrast to 0, I saw pure consistency. Increasing cell seemed fine, but once contrast starts creeping higher and higher, the issue can be seen more. I need to re-test tomorrow, but that is what I noticed on my last test.
post #7169 of 11459
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post

nfraso, you just told Ken this a couple hours ago....was this all conjecture? Dave's issue with picture bleed into the black bar region is something only a couple of people on this thread have noticed.....no way is Samsung going to try and fix this problem when only two people so far have identified it. Besides, I tried doing some online research about this phenomenon, and it looks like other tv manufacturers had this anomaly before, but with no real resolution other than turning down brightness, contrast, etc. Not a viable option, imo. Some owners noticed it, others didn't. Some felt they had a defective tv, etc. etc.

Yes, conjecture as it was suggested as a known fix- though it appears not to be the case.

By the way, here is what seems to be another occurrence of this issue earlier in the thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridaman View Post

I discovered yet another anomaly on my 64F8500. When I watch a movie with the Fios source and it is in letterbox you can clearly see the tint on the black bars fluctuate between black and grey. I have never seen this on a plasma tv. I have my black optimizer set to dark room. Has anyone else noticed this on a cable source or a satellite source? This might be the deal breaker for me. Fluctuating black levels aren't acceptable.
post #7170 of 11459
^Thanks for refreshing my memory about Floridaman's issues. He posted less than a week ago in this thread. I remember him stating he bought a 64" 8500. Then I think he sold his 8500 for a Panny VT. Then I think he got rid of that tv, and purchased another 8500. I think he may be on his 3rd 8500 now.... Not sure if he just ended up living with this issue, or it became less of an issue to him the more time he spent with his tv.

Truthfully, I don't even know what Floridaman saw is the same thing that Dave is seeing. Can't be certain. The tint on the letterbox bars fluctuating from black to gray can be different from whites bleeding into the black, letterbox areas of the screen.
Edited by DanF8500 - 5/23/13 at 9:26pm
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