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Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 25

post #721 of 11475
fyi

"That’s impressive stuff no matter how you look at it, and means that in 2013 Samsung’s plasma TVs may at last pose a very serious challenge to the likes of the Panasonic ZT60."

Read more at http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/samsung-f8500-plasma-ready-to-take-on-panasonic-s-best#egAjlK2HHvHMSrpt.99
post #722 of 11475
Ouch that article is old.....Thats a CES fluff piece wink.gif
post #723 of 11475
yeah but mentions zt compare to f8500 is all i was getting at for tomeos post! wink.gif
post #724 of 11475
ITa all personal opinion really, the ZT60 is positioned at a top tier TV, so in the case of 2013 VT50-->ZT60 GT--->VT60 ST50---->ST60 really the only reason they compare the two are becasue they are both companies "top tier" TVs....Panasonic is doing things different this year so there i no real true comparison besides the perciveved one......
post #725 of 11475
If the F8500's ANSI MLL measured as low as it's full screen black MLL, it may have competed well with the ZT. The F8500's "Black Optimizer" setting is what causes this fluctuation I believe. The ZT will probably measure around double that of the F8500 in the ANSI test (~16,000:1 v/s ~8,000:1 respectively) which should make for a much punchier image in the ZT. Not that the F8500 isn't an amazing TV in it's own right, but I don't think the ZT will have much of a problem taking the crown this year.
post #726 of 11475
I'm not sure if I should just get my 55LHX calibrated or sell it and go the the 60" F8500. It's hard to find an answer because the LHX isn't a very well known tv and probably only Chad B has seen both the LHX and F8500.
post #727 of 11475
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomeo View Post

No, the ZT60 boxes in another category. From a pure product & price perspective the competitor of the F8500 is definitely the vt60. Last year it was e8000 vs vt50. The f8500 is "just" replacing the e8000 like the vt60 does with the vt50. For sure you can compare the f8500 with the zt60 if you want but it's not the same product positioning and sofistication. So if you want to be fair in comparisions you need to compare with the right equivalences. In terms of price you can't compare the 64F8500 with the 65ZT60 but with the 60ZT60. So as you can see there's a problem here. To the contrary, that's totally OK with the 65VT60. Same product, same positioning, same price. I know that there a tons of expectations around the F8500 vs ZT60 but you need to be realistic.

And the safe prediction is that the ZT60 will edge out the 8500 on MLL (probably marginally visible on a 0 ire input in a very dark room...we'll see how visual the difference is with actual material) and the 8500 will beat out the ZT60 on brightness (probably not marginally). I don't expect any surprises.
post #728 of 11475
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B View Post

It will be interesting to see what happens to MLL over time.

The panasonics seemed to improve according to Cnet.

I don't know what the history of Samsung black levels are over time. Panasonics had the reputation of rising black levels, but seemed to have corrected that last year. We'll see what happens this year. Personally, I'd like no surprises.
post #729 of 11475
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post

If the F8500's ANSI MLL measured as low as it's full screen black MLL, it may have competed well with the ZT. The F8500's "Black Optimizer" setting is what causes this fluctuation I believe. The ZT will probably measure around double that of the F8500 in the ANSI test (~16,000:1 v/s ~8,000:1 respectively) which should make for a much punchier image in the ZT. Not that the F8500 isn't an amazing TV in it's own right, but I don't think the ZT will have much of a problem taking the crown this year.

I see lots of numbers being thrown around and thats something Id be careful about wink.gif as these numebrs often get taken out of context...Until the VT\ZT get measured there is no way to really "guess" what the numebrs will be...We can hope that they would be at certain levels, but when you start putting up numbers to it, you open yourself for a huge dissapointment......
post #730 of 11475
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomeo View Post

No, the ZT60 boxes in another category. From a pure product & price perspective the competitor of the F8500 is definitely the vt60. Last year it was e8000 vs vt50. The f8500 is "just" replacing the e8000 like the vt60 does with the vt50. For sure you can compare the f8500 with the zt60 if you want but it's not the same product positioning and sofistication. So if you want to be fair in comparisions you need to compare with the right equivalences. In terms of price you can't compare the 64F8500 with the 65ZT60 but with the 60ZT60. So as you can see there's a problem here. To the contrary, that's totally OK with the 65VT60. Same product, same positioning, same price. I know that there a tons of expectations around the F8500 vs ZT60 but you need to be realistic.


What about all the F8500 comparisons to the $8,000 to $15,000 9g Kuro Monitor's?
A 'Monitor' is a different class of product is it not?.
I don't see anyone complaining about that.wink.gif
Edited by sonyfan - 4/1/13 at 9:55am
post #731 of 11475
Regarding the black optimizer: at the beginning of a dark scene, it is clear that the optimizer kicks on and darkens the scene. It is not instantaneous. There is an apparent lag between the start of the dark scene and the activation of the black optimizer.

Flashing credits on a black screen also causes black fluctuations. I am not a calibrator so my hope is that this can be minimized with proper settings and perhaps a software update.

The actual depth of black is very nice with the optimizer. Lets hope the stability can be improved.
post #732 of 11475
Quote:
Originally Posted by GibsonES300 View Post

Regarding the black optimizer: at the beginning of a dark scene, it is clear that the optimizer kicks on and darkens the scene. It is not instantaneous. There is an apparent lag between the start of the dark scene and the activation of the black optimizer.

Flashing credits on a black screen also causes black fluctuations. I am not a calibrator so my hope is that this can be minimized with proper settings and perhaps a software update.

The actual depth of black is very nice with the optimizer. Lets hope the stability can be improved.

What are your current settings on the TV where you are seeing this...Besides those that were looking in store enviornments the other owners and Ken (who saw a clibrated F8500) have not seen these fluctuations.........

Of course you could bee more sensitive to it which is why you see it and others dont..As Chad said in his revew some may be abel to see it occur, while others cant\wont.....
post #733 of 11475
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

I see lots of numbers being thrown around and thats something Id be careful about wink.gif as these numebrs often get taken out of context...Until the VT\ZT get measured there is no way to really "guess" what the numebrs will be...We can hope that they would be at certain levels, but when you start putting up numbers to it, you open yourself for a huge dissapointment......

Well we know that the F8500 numbers are true (they have been broke in and calibrated by different calibrators using different equipment). And since last years VT50 measured ~12,000:1 ANSI, it's safe to "assume" that with the new panel design, this years ZT60 will hit that ~16,000:1 number. Even if the ZT is close, as in ~16.000:1 (~ = around), then that will be much better than the F8500 (~8,000:1). I only throw around numbers based off of last years accurate data, and this years presumed data. But a higher ANSI reading = a punchier image with more depth and shadow detail. smile.gif
post #734 of 11475
It's crazy how a slightly better black level makes a huge contrast ratio difference but a significant brightness increase doesn't even make a difference.
post #735 of 11475
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

What are your current settings on the TV where you are seeing this...Besides those that were looking in store enviornments the other owners and Ken (who saw a clibrated F8500) have not seen these fluctuations.........

Of course you could bee more sensitive to it which is why you see it and others dont..As Chad said in his revew some may be abel to see it occur, while others cant\wont.....

I will post the settings when I get home. The set is broken in and professionally calibrated.
post #736 of 11475
Quote:
Originally Posted by GibsonES300 View Post

Regarding the black optimizer: at the beginning of a dark scene, it is clear that the optimizer kicks on and darkens the scene. It is not instantaneous. There is an apparent lag between the start of the dark scene and the activation of the black optimizer.

Flashing credits on a black screen also causes black fluctuations. I am not a calibrator so my hope is that this can be minimized with proper settings and perhaps a software update.

The actual depth of black is very nice with the optimizer. Lets hope the stability can be improved.

This so called "Black Optimizer" software feature is starting to sound a bit gimmicky. I would prefer that the hardware do most of the heavy lifting. All this software stuff is kind of like cheating and can create issues in panel response times. I would've thought that quad-core processor would be able to keep up with it's software tasking.
post #737 of 11475
Quote:
Originally Posted by GibsonES300 View Post

I will post the settings when I get home. The set is broken in and professionally calibrated.

It was, however, calibrated with the black optimizer off. This could account for the behavior.
post #738 of 11475
I wonder if the better processors that will be released for this tv aka the Evolution kit will yield better results with the black optimizer?
post #739 of 11475
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post

Well we know that the F8500 numbers are true (they have been broke in and calibrated by different calibrators using different equipment). And since last years VT50 measured ~12,000:1 ANSI, it's safe to "assume" that with the new panel design, this years ZT60 will hit that ~16,000:1 number. Even if the ZT is close, as in ~16.000:1 (~ = around), then that will be much better than the F8500 (~8,000:1). I only throw around numbers based off of last years accurate data, and this years presumed data. But a higher ANSI reading = a punchier image with more depth and shadow detail. smile.gif

I try not to assume wink.gif theres nothing wrong with taking last years numbers and trying to guess what this years numbers will be, I wasnt referring to the F8500 as those have been tested and measured....i was reffering to the ZT60\VT60, I just prefer to wait until its actually been measured myself....I have no doubt that the ZT60/VT60 will be great sets, but for me, Id rather see the actual number rather than speculate on what could or couldnt be.....
post #740 of 11475
Quote:
Originally Posted by GibsonES300 View Post

It was, however, calibrated with the black optimizer off. This could account for the behavior.

Its a possibility, sicen I believe the otehrs are either not calibrated or calibrated with the BO on.....
post #741 of 11475
Just another observation: the behavior of the black optimizer seems to be related to the content displayed immediately prior to a dark scene. For example, you can watch an opening outer space scene with deep black levels. The first time the scene is played, there is a lag before the black optimizer kicks on. This scene is at the beginning of a chapter. If you go to the beginning of the chapter while the dark scene is still playing, the lag is reduced. Move forward to a lighter scene, then go back to the beginning of the chapter, the lag lengthens again.
post #742 of 11475
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post

It's crazy how a slightly better black level makes a huge contrast ratio difference but a significant brightness increase doesn't even make a difference.

Exactly, high brightness is good for combating high ambient light conditions, and for making your retinas close so tightly that your eyes get fatigued more easily. High brightness in a dark room also makes it more difficult to perceive black levels because your retinas are so tightly closed. Sadly, this is just a placebo effect. OLED will be the new "Reference" once it becomes available. I can't wait to have an 80"+ 4K OLED sitting in my living room. smile.gif
post #743 of 11475
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

I try not to assume wink.gif theres nothing wrong with taking last years numbers and trying to guess what this years numbers will be, I wasnt referring to the F8500 as those have been tested and measured....i was reffering to the ZT60\VT60, I just prefer to wait until its actually been measured myself....I have no doubt that the ZT60/VT60 will be great sets, but for me, Id rather see the actual number rather than speculate on what could or couldnt be.....

To each his own, but speculation keeps hopes set high. And if you're right, then you can have have your cake and eat it too. Added bonus! wink.gif
post #744 of 11475
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post

I wonder if the better processors that will be released for this tv aka the Evolution kit will yield better results with the black optimizer?

If I were a betting man, I would put my money on that statement holding true. wink.gif It will probably get better just from future firmware updates.
post #745 of 11475
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post

To each his own, but speculation keeps hopes set high. And if you're right, then you can have have your cake and eat it too. Added bonus! wink.gif

I have partook in "cake eating" in a long time, long past the my tv is better then your or my TV is the best blah blah....At this point its all wore on me and I just want the best TV for me wink.gif Right now the F8500 is high on my list since the room where its going has high ambient light....I am waiting a fe weeks and maybe even until the shootout until I make my final decision i think, all depends on how long I decide to hold off and make the decision lol....I hope your high expectations are met and that the ZT\Vt are all they are promised to be smile.gif
post #746 of 11475
^I concur with you waiting until at least the shootout. No need to leap unless you know something we don't. biggrin.gif
post #747 of 11475
What does this mean in relation to judder cancellor cinema smooth?
post #748 of 11475
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^I concur with you waiting until at least the shootout. No need to leap unless you know something we don't. biggrin.gif

+1
post #749 of 11475
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^I concur with you waiting until at least the shootout. No need to leap unless you know something we don't. biggrin.gif

All i know i what I read wink.gif

Taking form DNice's comments it has put a +1 to the F8500 becasue I do viewing during the day as well as night so I need something to combat the high ambient light in the room.....

I have no brand loyalty when it comes down to it, and right now based on what people ahve seen at CES and otehr demos it may be hard to top the F8500's bright room performance.......The MLL is lower on the list for me as far as importance goes.....
post #750 of 11475
As a continuation of the remote/HDMI CEC discussion from the previous thread - I'm trying to determine what the best options are for remotes with the 8500.

The included Touch remote is fine and workable for manipulating the SmartTV options but terrible for punching in numbers and controlling other AV components. I have a Harmony One and I could program all devices that way but lose the mouse/touch capability when using the SmartTV functions.

The other major issue is in utilizing the Harmony One, everytime I go into a SmartTV app, I have to manually switch over the AV-Receiver to TV to get things like YouTube or Amazon videos to play sound over the HDMI ARC channel. If I leave AnyNet+ on, this happens automatically but the AnyNet is flaky to say the least in trying to control the AV input correctly.

There are some times where I want only the cable-box to be shown/heard but not have the TV take over the input because it thinks its displaying a "Smart App". This happens everytime the ESPN score ticker app comes up as an overlay on the main cable-box input.

Any ideas/recommendations?
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