Parasound, Emotiva, Outlaw

Sorry to hear about your speaker.
However, It depends on your receiver but usually -13 is pretty loud.
On a positive scale that would be 87.

It is far easier to blow a speaker with too little power than too much.
When a solid state amp clips, it will produces harsh high frequencies that are sent to your tweeters.
They cannot handle much power.

I am selling a Outlaw 7500 (200 WPC) amp. I have decided to upgrade to their monster 7900 amp.
PM me, if you are interested.

- Rich

+1 on the Outlaw 7500. Big fan of Parasound also but the 7500 is such a great deal for an excellent amp.

I have Revel Salons which are very large speakers. 300 watts are not a problem. 600 watts are not a problem.
Clipping an amp can be a big problem because it sends square waves and lots of high frequency energy to your tweeter which cannot handle a lot of power.

The first serious set of speakers I had were JBL L112 3 way speakers.
They can with a warning: Danger Low Power.

Speakers are not rated in a standardized way.
But usually, they mean continuous power and that is not the way music works.
You can be clipping some percentage at a time.
Tweeters can get hot and damaged because they cannot dissipate the heat.

I recommend talking to your dealer.
Focals are very nice speakers.
You will have a much harder time blowing the Focals with a 300 watt amp than a 100 watt receiver.

Here is what the Salon manual says about power:
I think that is pretty good advice.

- Rich

Addressing your last question first, Mmarsterg. It would depend on the system's calibration, but master volume -13dB would equate to theoretical max. 92dB peaks at the seat (is that the 92/93dB you mentioned in your first paragraph?) and require around 100dB at 1m from the speaker depending on listening distance and room characteristics. If that's the case, yes it could have been turned up a lot more. The Focal 826's are about 90dB+/W/m sensitivity IIRC, so should only need 10W to hit that 100dB at 1m and thus 92dB at the seat. Say a maximum of 20W. So, it does look like a faulty speaker if it blew at properly calibrated -13dB MV. Perhaps the dealers calibration was off? Pink Floyd is responsible for blowing a lot speakers because it's very dynamic material... but at louder volumes than that.

What else? Don't sweat trying to match the speakers published power handling specs to the power specs of an amp. The important thing is to find a few speakers you love the sound of. Go home and look up the sensitivity specs of the candidates (careful - some are overstated). You should be looking at high 80's to low 90's (dB/W/m) sensitivity for mainstream floorstanding speakers. Then jump onto a handy online SPL calculator and have a play around with the values, bearing in mind your listening distance and volume preferences. The main thing to remember is that each doubling of power only yields 3dB increased SPL* and SPL drops 6dB each time you double the distance from the source in free space but is probably closer to 3>4dB per double distance in normally furnished rooms at home. You then get an idea of the power you need for your candidate speakers, at your listening distance in your room, for the loudest volumes you are likely to listen to. Then shop for the power you really do need.

* The flipside being that a 3dB/W/m more sensitive speaker only requires half the power to reach the same volume as the less sensitive speaker. I could say: just buy the most sensitive speaker you love the sound of - but that's extreme.

Manufacturers, marketers and spineless ad-men would love you to believe; and the dealer will swear on a stack of Bibles that buying separates will get you better/cleaner/more open/blah/blah/blah sound! Unless you actually need the extra power provided by a separate amp over what an AVR can cleanly supply, there will be zero noticeable difference. Save your money for things that do make a difference like a quality subwoofer or two. Proper speaker placement and speaker interactions with the room and furnishings will totally swamp any "improvements" in audio quality promised by purveyors of high priced separates. If your power requirements fall within the ratings of AVR's (which I suspect they might), then shop for AVR's that are rated for the power you need, remembering that you can rely a bit on the "dynamic power" specs to deliver the highest of program peaks. If you think there's ever a possibility that you'll NEED a separate amp (say a move to a bigger room or you discover you like music very, very loud) ensure the AVR has pre-amp outputs, to keep your options open.

Your budget split looks OK, but depending on your real power needs, I would probably spend less on the AVR if it allowed you to step up a level in speakers, for example get the "monster" matching centre channel or save it for the subs. These are things that really make a difference.

THX Ultra2 power amp? Complete waste of money IMHO. I have nothing against the idea of THX certification in general and I bought an Ultra2+ AVR for the assurance that it could drive a multi-channel system to reference level cleanly, had known bass management processes and some additional surround processing modes that appealed. BUT the THX brand on a power amp makes zero difference. An amp is an amp and this is the sort of obvious marketing schtick that gives THX certification a bad name IMHO [End rant].

Good luck with your research and have fun!

Not necessarily Rich. Correlation between relative and absolute can vary between manufacturers/models, IIRC. In my Audyssey calibrated system a typical progression is: -15db = 67abs; -10dB = 72abs; -5db = 77abs; 0dB = 82abs; +5dB = 87abs etc. (the absolute volume bar shows up on the LCD). Looks like the correlation on your system is: 0dB = 100abs. So really a stab in the dark talking in absolute volumes.
Edited by GIEGAR - 3/17/13 at 3:04am

I won't argue with that.
However, I use the Marantz AV8801 with the Outlaw 7500 for now.
There is 34 DB gain on the XLR's.

I set the volume in movies based on the vocals coming from the center channel.
I have to take a meter on one day and see what level that is.
I do not think I have ever approached 70 on the Marantz (-30).

Once that is set, the rest of the sound is explosive.

Since the man blew a Focal, I think it is reasonable to assume he was clipping his receiver.

- Rich

To my friends, I recommend spending most of you budget on your speakers.
You seem to want to drive those speakers, so I would get a good amp and pair it with a good Receiver with analog outputs to drive an outboard amp.
Spending money on receiver amps is a waste IMHO.

If you listen to what your speakers are telling you, you should not have a problem overpowering speakers with an amp.
I auditioned a friends Focal bookshelf speakers they were the version before the Electra 1008 Be (without the beryllium tweeters).
They sounded great. Not a ton of bass but the musical bass was there and we were driving them with Outlaw M2200 mono-blocks that a friend brought over.

Having heard the Outlaw 7500, I have reservations recommending these amps. They are neutral, fast, and powerful.
I would also consider the Emotiva XPA-2/XPA-3 combo.

If you want a true preamp at a low cost there is the UMC-200 which has pure analog 7.1 inputs if you are into that sort of thing.
If not, the Outlaw preamp is well reviewed.
Neither of these have Audyssey, but I do not care for room correction or any processing for that matter.

I hope that helps.

- Rich

I bought a used XPA5 from someone who went to Parasound Halos. I think he had Monitors. He said he noticed some difference but that is at least a double-down on cost.

I have Studio 100s. At lower volumes not much of a difference with a Yammie A3010 powering them vs the Emos. Do notice a difference at louder levels. I would consider volumes when making your decisions.

As people have mentioned, make the investment in the speakers and go from there. I have noticed a much larger difference in trying out different speakers than electronics/amps.

If you are looking at 3k for electronics then that may be an odd price. A named pre/pro (Integra, Marantz) is going to eat up half of that if not more. You are then looking at 1,500 for your amp. Don't think you would get a new Parasound 5x200 for that price unless you went used.

Maybe do what one person mentioned and get a good avr with pre-outs. Let that handle the processing and surrounds and then you can get a 3 channel amp for the fronts.

Just thoughts. Nice budget to play with !!

You might want to go on audiogon and buy used. You can get used for nice discount price. Could look at real nice amp like classe , anthem , wyred4sound , cinenova , or others. Spend 2200 on amp and get pre from outlaw or emotiva .just giving you another option.

That's a fairly large room. Any idea at all of what your listening distance would be? Did you have a play around with some SPL/power calculators? Here's some recommended reading about power requirements from a pro-audio world and a simple power calculator. Muck around with it... you'll see that the Focals will play twice as loud as the B&W's with the same power input. Note that the calculator seems to allow for the full outdoors 6dB SPL drop per double distance - about twice as much as real rooms - so you need to allow for that. The full 3dB of amp headroom is good practice for live sound applications (due to unexpected peaks), but not an drop dead requirement for home audio - more nice to have.

http://www.crownaudio.com/how_much_power.htm

http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm

Others have since given advice on the usual suspects in pre-pros and power amps if your stuck on that route. IMHO the best bang for your buck pre-pro is actually an AVR. For example, the Denon 4311CI is very well regarded and is good value on runout. Either that or one of the higher end Onkyos from last year, say the TX-NR3009. If then you still must have power amps, an option to consider is adding the Outlaw 2200 monoblocks that Rich mentioned, one at a time (centre > stereo > front 3) until you've slayed the beast.

Mmasterg, if you want bang for your buck, work out how much bang (power) you really need and target that... with the volume and proportions of your room, you'll need money in the bank for some pretty capable subs to fill it with low bass.

Don't get too tramlined into bigger is better!

For the past 20 years I have run 9watt/ch valve amps into moderately efficient speakers - currently CARY 300SE tube amps into ALMARRO M2 speakers. That's NOT 90 watts or 900watts, which seems to be the direction of the advice so far, just 9 watts, and my ears give up long before the speaks or amps in delivering beautiful, loud sound.

Focus on sound you enjoy (speaker/ pre-amp/power amp combo). A good quality power amp will handle over-current without damaging the speaker - talk to good hifi store people (not Harvey Norman or similar supermarket store) and trust that your ears will do good decision-making.

Expect to pay some premium for quality and "suck it up"!

Right now I am looking to build an audiophile-oriented AV 5.1 sound system and focus is on the pre-amp (Parasound versus NAD versus Marantz, etc.) and then a power amp such as Anthem PVA 5 or MCA 50 (and many more to chose from, but I look for sound quality). The 9w/ch CARY tube amps will remain the
Powerhouse for big soundstage stereo listening.

Bottom line is that most average suburban houses contain relatively small rooms where anything above 100w/ch is a waste. The centre & subwoofer selections are more important for balance if you want intelligible surround sound impact.

...and a little more.....

Consider to use an OPPO 105 as a BluRay/preamp directly to power-amps (Anthem, etc.) so that you can minimise the range of decisions - just focus on selection of speakers and amps while the OPPO delivers the AV material to your little bit of audio-visual nirvana!!!!!

I agree that an AVR as a prepro is an excellent option. I had three M2200s in my system for a short time and they are great amps. The issue I had with them was the way the 12v triggers worked. I could not trigger three M2200s off of my Onkyo 886 no matter how they were configured. I contacted Outlaw about the issue and they were aware of the issue but could not give me a solution. The M2200s are not like the other Outlaw amps as they are not built in the USA. I sold the M2200s and put my Boston Acoustics A7200 back in my system and I did notice any significant SQ differences between the two amps.


The Oppo 105 is an excellent universal player but when used as a prepro it limits ones options quite a bit. I could see if you only wanted BR/DVD playback but if one also uses their system to watch TV with a cable/SAT box and other devices (gaming) the 105 would be a poor choice IMO. Also if one wants room correction and the ability to have different audio processing formats then that would not be an option with the 105.

Bill

Thanks for the heads-up Bill. Not exactly sure of the nature of the problem with the triggering, but would one of these have helped?

Now you mention triggering amps, I recall the Onkyo I mentioned, and other Onkyos require some annoying workaround to get Zone 2 or 3 triggers to kick Main Zone devices in the guts. I'm not totally across it though. Probably not the most solid of recommendations in retrospect, if fussing with that stuff isn't your go.

OK Rich, just getting back to this because I'm curious. (Off-topic but OP has not come back for days.) You have a very nice pre-pro and powerful amp, yet you don't think you have ever approached -30dB on your 8801. On my modest system, -30dB is a soft background level, so... . My -30dB must be nothing like your -30dB . Do you calibrate with Audyessy?

I listen at -15 to -20 which is 90 to 95db. I set the loudness with the loudest noises hitting my peak levels.

No but I have set the AV8801 to a positive scale so maybe the numbers do not match.
I'll have to try it with the negative scale.

- Rich

Thanks Rich, that clears it up.

If an Audyssey calibration hasn't been run, the processor's volume readout, including relative volume readout (if it can be enabled), is just arbitrary. When an Audyssey calibration is run, the audio chain (processor; amp; speakers) is automatically set up such that a 0dB readout on the master volume represents film reference level. The master volume then indicates how far below (-ive) or above (+ive) reference the system is playing.

Rich, I humbly suggest you run an Audyssey calibration.
Edited by GIEGAR - 3/24/13 at 1:23am

I have a number of times and I don't care for the results.
You do not need to run Audyssey to have the (negative) reference from offset.

I just like positive displays and the wife and kids are used to it.

- Rich

I also do not like what Audyssey does for music and have found if it puts your speakers very negative (say -8 to -11) it also degrades the sound with Audyssey off, say in Direct. My Shearborn amp has a higher gain than the Bryston so my center needs to be negative compared to my mains but I try to bring them all up until one hits zero. And I have XT32 but not pro.

Would you be willing to reformulated and say you have an entire budget of $8K?

I would get an AVR that supports all the latest formats with good room correction and pre-outs. Next I would recommend looking at the pro-sound/pro-audio style amps. I picked up a Crown and sold my Adcom and Parasound gear.

As example there is a Yamaha 793 that was being sold for $480. Couple that with $600 in amplification for the front three speakers and leaves you with almost $7K on speakers. This will be, by far, your best path to ultimate SQ.

Let me know if you want a few referral threads were people have chosen a pro-audio amp over adcom/rotel/parasound. You could ask your own questions of them.

Although I agree with the idea of an AVR as processor, a $500 model will lack in several areas including the all important room correction. I am one of those who are quite impressed with Audyssey, and their best version is the XT32.Onkyo, Denon and Integra have this, and it would be a great place to start. You could even get an Onkyo or Integra dedicated processor for a little over 2000 if you have room in the budget. Pro audio amps have fans which intrude in the listening area. They also tend to look ugly, so it depends where you are installing them. Nothing wrong with typical amps from Outlaw or anyone else you prefer either. You are probably going to get lots of advice on this thread that conflicts with each other. Use your ears and make yourself happy, not strangers on a thread.

With that budget, your options are wide open, find speakers that you like and go from there!.

A few factually mistakes. Pro audio amps like crown xls2000 has a fan but it never comes on even listening at 100 db level. Read the reviews on it. As for looks the crown is far superior in looks the the outlaw which is plain ugly. I think outlaw makes great amps(I would never not buy a good sounding piece of equipment at a good price for looks). The best advice you gave was to use your ears and trust them.
Edited by chalugadp - 3/26/13 at 12:59am

Amp: Emotiva XPA-5 (or XPA-3 if you want to use your old amp for the surround channels).
Prepro: Marantz AV7005, Emotiva UMC-200, Outlaw 975.

Total cost would be well under $2000, so you can go nuts on speakers and room treatments where it really matters most.