or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The BIG fat lie of 4K support in AV receivers
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The BIG fat lie of 4K support in AV receivers - Page 2

post #31 of 87
I guess that I don't see this as all that serious of an issue. I am probably wrong but--
Seems to me that if the video technology changes between now and actual 4K release that I could just wait, purchase a television meeting the new standard at that time that will handle the video input signal, purchase a new 4K player with dual outputs to get separate video and audio outs so that my existing receiver still works fine with the audio. This is what I do now with my older Elite receiver, HD TV, and Blu-Ray player.

Of course I wish all the updated hardware was available now and that current receivers worked perfectly with the new 4K technology so that I could upscale all my current video sources. Only in a perfect world. smile.gif
post #32 of 87
Thread Starter 
PeterK, I agree that it is not a serious issue. I could always connect the 4K source to the 4K TV (at this time ONLY through ethernet or proprietary bus) and use the HDMI 1.4a Audio Return Channel (ARC) to send the HD Audio back to my current AV receiver. But... I do not need 4K pass-through for that! Your solution is valid too, Splitting the audio from the video at the source is the oldest solution and only requires more cables, it is easy and doesn't require any additional feature like the ARC. But, in this case 4K pass-through is useless too.

And that is the main reason for this topic. 4K pass-through is only available for low framerate 4K video since standard and high framerate 4K video is not supported by the current HDMI specification/connector/circuitry.I was trying to help customers, like skelzer several posts ago, spending a lot of time and biasing their AV purchasing on 4K support only to discover that it is a feature that they will probably never use. It is better to let them know it before they buy.

4K pass-through and 4K up-scaling is a misleading feature for most of the customer since it is difficult for someone not familiar with the HDMI specification to know the limitation of the current HDMI framework.

Regards
post #33 of 87
Thank you for that. This thread has me really rethinking my next purchase as I will definitely want to get to the next video standard. Not being made of money, I try to be smart and take my time with product selection. Obviously as I am still using my Elite VSX-49TX receiver with no HDMI! My video is handled by the player and tv. Since the video spec upgrade is definitely coming and will yield worthwhile improvements, I am one your post applies to as I don't want to throw money away on a supposed feature that won't work.
post #34 of 87
It will be a few years before HDMI 2.0 is actually out into the hands of the public.
post #35 of 87
Maybe HDMI 2.0 is a mirage?
post #36 of 87
Thank you guys for this thread. I am holding my money till hdmi 2.0 and HEVC (High Efficiency Video Coding), or H.265, to compress hefty 4K files, is available even if that means waiting till next year. Gives me more time to save $$$ for those ultra HD TV's as well. smile.gif
post #37 of 87
Thread Starter 
The new HDMI 2.0 specification has been delayed. It had to be released by Q4 2012, last January the HDMI forum said that it was going to be realease during H1 2013 and that is not gonna be true.

Things are moving slowly, even more after Apple joined the HDMI Forum later last year with new conditions. The problem is that there is no agreement on color balance (ITU Rec 709 or lTU Free 2020 or SMPTE P3), frame rates (to cover European well as US/Japanese frequencies). and compression (current MPEG H.264 or future HEVC, High Efficiency Video Coding). Neither is there is a standard yet for 4K broadcast or satellite tuners. So there can ‘t be chip sets and there can’t be a new 4K Blu-ray standard (Samsung is waiting for it, so the PS4 and probably the final Xbox One).

Regards
post #38 of 87
Thank you so much for this! I was in the market this weekend for a new receiver after I purchased a Viera plasma and found out my Denon AVR-1909 doesn't support 3D pass through (I really don't care about 3D all that much but after switching from my old LCD TV to the Viera I noticed a 1080p overscan problem I never used to have from my HTPC and Xbox360). While standing around Bestbuy and Frys scratching my head, figured I would hold off on the tempting Memorial Day Weekend sales and do some homework on avsforum today.

With 4K just on the horizon, which I think will be pushed hard after the holiday releases of XboxOne/PS4, I'm definitely going to hold off purchasing a receiver until the standard is set and receivers can truly pass 4K resolutions through at the appropriate frame rate. Cheers!
post #39 of 87
Great perspective all the way around, thanks! Now I'm stuck between two views... the wannabe audiophile/purist in me wants to avoid making a receiver purchase based on anything video related... so yes, ARC or splitting audio at the source "should be" a sufficient solution to avoid waiting for 4K above 24/30fps However, the realist in me is aware that the only way I'm getting a hall-pass to revamp my A/V rack is because the wife is sick of our Harmony+Crestron remotes and all the click-throughs (macros or not) to match sources on each device and the HDMI splitter. ARC and/or audio splitting would require separately tuning the TV and the receiver to the right inputs... and it would be a different TV source for each 4K source, with other non-4K sources coming in via the receiver. So, in truth, this misses the whole promise of simplification I was to achieve by routing everything via the new receiver. Bottom line, if I am to make my marriage the priority yet still want 4K sometime in the coming years, I can't buy a new reciever until HDMI 2.0 is released... short of jumping to DisplayPort and/or HDBaseT, which isn't on any of the current receivers I'm looking at anyways. I'd bet there's a growing base of consumers waiting to upgrade for exactly the same reason: we got burned on the value of 3D, so we're being a bit more diligent this time around before drinking the "4K pass-through" Kool-Aid. Just wait... HDMI 2.0 and sur-24fps 4K will save us all!
Edited by skelzer - 7/14/13 at 5:09pm
post #40 of 87
Both the xbox one and the ps4 will have hdmi 1.4 since the 2.0 spec isn't ready today and they are already tooling up production.

This may come down to the display manufacturers.
I just don't see HDMI 2.0 4k sets being delivered by xmas this year if the spec isn't ready today.
xmas season is only a quarter away.
post #41 of 87
I think 4K content is going to be several years away from widespread home user release, so I'm not particularly worried about any of this. I just bought a new Denon 4520 - I'll bet it's 5 years before a home user 4K Blu Ray is available. In the mean time, if 4K projectors become affordable, I'll just upscale my Blu Ray collection with the new projector.

Paralysis by analysis - not playing that game. Life is too short to not always have the best home theater you can !! smile.gif
post #42 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

I think 4K content is going to be several years away from widespread home user release, so I'm not particularly worried about any of this. I just bought a new Denon 4520 - I'll bet it's 5 years before a home user 4K Blu Ray is available. In the mean time, if 4K projectors become affordable, I'll just upscale my Blu Ray collection with the new projector.

Paralysis by analysis - not playing that game. Life is too short to not always have the best home theater you can !! smile.gif

Hopefully in 5 years real UHD will be available in the form of 8K.
post #43 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

I think 4K content is going to be several years away from widespread home user release, so I'm not particularly worried about any of this. I just bought a new Denon 4520 - I'll bet it's 5 years before a home user 4K Blu Ray is available. In the mean time, if 4K projectors become affordable, I'll just upscale my Blu Ray collection with the new projector.

Paralysis by analysis - not playing that game. Life is too short to not always have the best home theater you can !! smile.gif

It is closer than you think.

The video codec we are waiting for for bluray 4K is HEVC.
HEVC got first stage approvals this year in Jan.
Look up the Broadcom BCM7445. (supports HEVC for future players)
It should be ready when HDMI 2.0 silicon starts to be readily and while I think it may not be this year, it will be ready in 2014.
post #44 of 87
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

It is closer than you think.

The video codec we are waiting for for bluray 4K is HEVC.
HEVC got first stage approvals this year in Jan.
Look up the Broadcom BCM7445. (supports HEVC for future players)
It should be ready when HDMI 2.0 silicon starts to be readily and while I think it may not be this year, it will be ready in 2014.

The future is not so clear. HDMI 2.0 will support only standard quality 4K video. High framerate and high quality color 4K modes require more bandwidth. Professional video uses dual SDI coax cable to deliver 4K signals since there isn't a standard using a single cable and there is not a clear solution even for the professional market.

What we are about to see is that QuadHD, AKA 4K, is going to be the last video signal delivered from one appliance to the other without compression. Ethernet is everywhere and the future UltraHD, AKA 8K video will require too much bandwidth. HEVC or the next generation after this codec could be the solution. We could even see some kind of lossless codec for 8K video. Remember that uncompressed 4K requires 4 times the bandwidth of 1080p video at the same framerate and color mode, and 8K requires 4 times the bandwidth of 4K video which is 16 times the bandwidth of current HD video.

I do not care about all this. Netflix will provide 4K movies in 18 months and youtube is delivering 3D and 4K content right now. You can only enjoy the 4K youtube in a 4K TV by using its integrated Youtube player. By the time 4K was a standard, most people will use streaming video using the internal TV apps. All the mid range TVs integrate now a decent set of apps: Youtube, netflix, hulu, etc... The future of interconnection is ethernet, and the data will be compressed from one appliance to the other. I do not care about the future of HDMI. It is fuzzy, far and all the streaming present in current samsung TVs and future TVs by Apple will make HDMI not a key factor anymore.

Regarding the codecs, HEVC and Opus seem to be a good combination for AV, but this is more related to the data stream other than the circuitry itself and the standard will be the internet streaming and file formats, not the Bluray. Do you remember the CD audio? 16 bits 44100Hz, greatly surpassed by current streaming standards not constrained by the hardware. Then SACD media came to be nothing.

Regarding the projectors, Intel is dedicating a lot of efforts in promoting their WIDI standard, adopted by the WiFi alliance as their Miracast protocol, able to deliver 1080p HD content to a TV without cables. Think about WIDI as wireless HDMI, some sort of Apple Airplay. This is the real future, no cables. If I was in the market for an AV receiver, I will not be paralized by the HDMI 2.0 and I'd buy my AV receiver again. even more when audio is far more important than video in a AV receiver and HDMI 2.0 will be soon replaced by HDMI 2.1, 2.2 or 2.4.

Regards
post #45 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by okibcn View Post

HDMI 2.0 will support only standard quality 4K video. High framerate and high quality color 4K modes require more bandwidth.
Ethernet is everywhere and the future UltraHD, AKA 8K video will require too much bandwidth. HEVC or the next generation after this codec could be the solution. We could even see some kind of lossless codec for 8K video.
Regarding the codecs, HEVC and Opus seem to be a good combination for AV,

I will not be paralized by the HDMI 2.0
I certainly hope that you're wrong. Your big mistake is that you think Codecs never change. They do. Baseband video, however, does not change. If you buy a TV set with HDMI version , that TV is future-proof, because it can accept uncompressed video all the way up to the highest resolution of the panel. When you say that HDMI 2.0 resolution isn't high enough, what resolution is it that you think you need?

Let's say that you buy a 4K TV, and some day, video goes to 8K. If you send 8K compressed video to the TV, it won't be able to decompress it. But a set-top box can decompress the video, downscale it, and transmit it to your 4K TV with HDMI.

Another problem with sending compressed video over the cable to the TV is that it can't be interactive, because the set top box can't draw a compressed user interface on top of the compressed video, except with great expense and very high latency. And de-compressing/re-compressing loses quality. And forget about video gaming, and as soon as somebody improves the compression method, your TV is obsolete.
post #46 of 87
Keep in mind..
Behind 4K and the next generation of HDMI is the availability of content..
The HD video display brands learned a major lesson about 3D..
Major hype and lack of content support equals disaster.. 😳
4K will happen but on a much more controlled, rational marketing time-line schedule..


Just my $0.02.... 👍😉📺📀
post #47 of 87
With the delay of HDMI 2.0, won't it hurt receiver sales? Is the receiver manufactures saying "ooops, we are going to take a hit in sales because we can't deliver the true 4K passthrough/upconversion ability's that we said we would do for the end consumer".

I believe people who bought into Pioneer Elites SC-67/68 receivers thought they would be set for the next 5 to 10 years. Now they find out that, "what this receiver will not pass 4K 60fps, what a lie"

I'm thankful for this thread because its going to get people thinking about the decision making process when spending their hard earned dollars on new equipment.

Thanks
post #48 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edllguy View Post

With the delay of HDMI 2.0, won't it hurt receiver sales? Is the receiver manufactures saying "ooops, we are going to take a hit in sales because we can't deliver the true 4K passthrough/upconversion ability's that we said we would do for the end consumer".

I believe people who bought into Pioneer Elites SC-67/68 receivers thought they would be set for the next 5 to 10 years. Now they find out that, "what this receiver will not pass 4K 60fps, what a lie"

I'm thankful for this thread because its going to get people thinking about the decision making process when spending their hard earned dollars on new equipment.

Thanks

Already happened....
North American AVR category sales are down 17% in $, and 7% in units.... And AVR sales in Europe are off even more.
Several reasons besides the 4K dilemma; 3D hype, weak economy and the major strategic impact of the primary AVR brands engaging in a low-end price war for market-share driving the average price paid to < $499. Almost wiping out the higher end AVR category for units selling > $1299... As this category supplied >65% of their profits.
End-result is that every major AVR brand is now losing $ so there is little incentive to make major investments for significant R&D going forward...
Instead the emphasis is on How to make it cheaper..
The AV specialist is history and now the consumer can enjoy the low prices available from Amazon, CostCo, Target, Walmart..

Just my $0.02... 😉👍
post #49 of 87
post #50 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by img eL View Post

Will Receiver manufacturers do this as well? >http://us.hardware.info/news/34661/samsung-and-sony-to-offer-hdmi-20-upgrade-for-uhd-tvs
If the CEMs can find a way to use a lock-in, brand-loyalty AVR hardware upgrade subscription business model to increase net revenues over the next decade, then "maybe". biggrin.gif
_
Edited by SoundChex - 5/31/13 at 11:50am
post #51 of 87
Quote:
Keep in mind..
Behind 4K and the next generation of HDMI is the availability of content..
The HD video display brands learned a major lesson about 3D..
Major hype and lack of content support equals disaster.. 😳
4K will happen but on a much more controlled, rational marketing time-line schedule..

I agree. I can't even get good across the board artifact free HD TV consistantly, so until a 4K Blu Ray disk is available, I'm not spending a dime on 4K content. I don't stream - it looks inferior on my big screen and high end projector. Chances are a 4K Blu Ray player will have 2 HDMI outputs - one for video, one backwards compatible for audio - anyways.
post #52 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

I agree. I can't even get good across the board artifact free HD TV consistantly, so until a 4K Blu Ray disk is available, I'm not spending a dime on 4K content. I don't stream - it looks inferior on my big screen and high end projector. Chances are a 4K Blu Ray player will have 2 HDMI outputs - one for video, one backwards compatible for audio - anyways.

In today's market, the HD video brands are pushing hype & sizzle..
Pushing smart TV features that few use, while touting some streaming sources for 4K content... confused.gif
All one has to do is look closely @ the streaming sources with a well-calibrated HD display and they will easily see the differences and negative by-products...
The big hype of the streaming sources is to the portable; tablet and smartphone guys who want to watch TV everywhere even while sitting on the can in the private room..

Just my $0.02... 😉👍📺
post #53 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by img eL View Post

Will Receiver manufacturers do this as well? >http://us.hardware.info/news/34661/samsung-and-sony-to-offer-hdmi-20-upgrade-for-uhd-tvs
So you have Sony and Samsung people saying "possible" that they might offer a update for future HDTV broadcasting. Does anybody remember how many products were sold as "ready" for some feature? biggrin.gif

Not many vendors swap out CCA's in a AVR. Some offer software updates for a price occasionally. But then again isn't HDMI 2.0 currently like a black hole that the light of day can't escape from?
post #54 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by img eL View Post

Will Receiver manufacturers do this as well? >http://us.hardware.info/news/34661/samsung-and-sony-to-offer-hdmi-20-upgrade-for-uhd-tvs
So you have Sony and Samsung people saying "possible" that they might offer a update for future HDTV broadcasting. Does anybody remember how many products were sold as "ready" for some feature? biggrin.gif

Not many vendors swap out CCA's in a AVR. Some offer software updates for a price occasionally. But then again isn't HDMI 2.0 currently like a black hole that the light of day can't escape from?
Why are you so negative? What do you expect these manufacturers to do? Should they halt all R&D forever?

4K is not quite here yet. In HDMI 1.4, 4K is a 24, 25 or 30 Hz signal. If you buy an AVR today, that's the 4K that you'll get. If you later buy a 4K60 TV, look for source boxes with two HDMI outputs, which is what they do to deliver 3D Blu-ray players that will work with legacy AVR's.
post #55 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebound View Post

Why are you so negative? What do you expect these manufacturers to do? Should they halt all R&D forever?

4K is not quite here yet. In HDMI 1.4, 4K is a 24, 25 or 30 Hz signal. If you buy an AVR today, that's the 4K that you'll get. If you later buy a 4K60 TV, look for source boxes with two HDMI outputs, which is what they do to deliver 3D Blu-ray players that will work with legacy AVR's.
My response was against so many AV products that were advertised as ready for something (future proof) in the past, in relation to ingeL question 4Kx2K is here now, thats what you see when you see a demo in the stores. There are some demos that have 4k files on storage being played also on the latest UDTV's.

Saying HDMI-2.0 was like a dark hole, was in reference to very little factual news from HDMI.org other then what was shown in a single presentation. Go ahead try to find exactly on the internet ,where the term HDMI 2.0 came from, and I don't mean some press article mentioning it either!

For Sony and Samsung to say probably they might offer a HDMI 2.0 compliant upgrade to early 4K UDTV customers based on the past industry history is pretty slim chance IMHO. smile.gif
post #56 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

My response was against so many AV products that were advertised as ready for something (future proof) in the past, in relation to ingeL question
4Kx2K is here now, thats what you see when you see a demo in the stores. There are some demos that have 4k files on storage being played also on the latest UDTV's.

Saying HDMI-2.0 was like a dark hole, was in reference to very little factual news from HDMI.org other then what was shown in a single presentation. Go ahead try to find exactly on the internet ,where the term HDMI 2.0 came from, and I don't mean some press article mentioning it either!

For Sony and Samsung to say probably they might offer a HDMI 2.0 compliant upgrade to early 4K UDTV customers based on the past industry history is pretty slim chance IMHO. smile.gif

I agree that there is probably a slim chance that the big boys will offer an upgrade path unless there is an outcry from early adopters. Regarding receivers I don't see any way that there will be an upgrade path. It seems that many of the 2013 receivers are offering 2k-4k upscailing with various results. I have not seen any manufacture offering a firmware upgrade from 2012 receivers to offer 2k-4k upscailing. It would seem to be an easy upgrade in the case of the Pioneer high end receivers if the company wanted to do it. Regarding HDMI 2.0 I don't see any way to do it.
post #57 of 87
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebound View Post

In HDMI 1.4, 4K is a 24, 25 or 30 Hz signal. If you buy an AVR today, that's the 4K that you'll get.

4K is limited to 24Hz in HDMI 1.4a. There is not enough bandwidth for more than that. 4K up scaling in current 4K ready AVR is limited to 24Hz sources.

Samsung is already offering hardware upgrade modules for their 3 top TV series 7, 8 and 9

Regards
post #58 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by okibcn View Post

Samsung is already offering hardware upgrade modules for their 3 top TV series 7, 8 and 9
Regards
Your referring to the evolution upgrade module, but adding smart TV features is way different then upgrading the HDMI ports in a TV to new standards. Niffy idea for interim smart TV updates, but you could also achieve this with a external box that you control using the TV remote if engineered.

Mean while getting back to AVR's I agree the two HDMI output scheme Rebound commented on with a BD player will work around HDMI changes with legacy AVR's when eventually HDMI-2.0 arrives. At least we can all know we have a workaround. smile.gif
post #59 of 87
Interesting article further describes the limitations in the current HDMI 1.4 a/b spec vs upcoming 2.0:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/hdmi-2-0-explained/

One new tidbit of info: there's also a chance 2.0 will bump up from 8-bit to 10 or 12-bit, doubling the data throughput. So with 1.4a/b capped at 30 fps and unable to handle any further data... looks like we're stuck waiting. Joy.
post #60 of 87
Maybe I've missed something important... But who wants 4k on his TV? Or is everyone here projector based?

According to this guy, you "wouldd need at least a 77" screen before you'd start having a pixel visibility problem with 1080p."

But yeah, it does feel like a scam to market 4k when it's not even properly standardised. Same as when people bought HD Ready TVs ._.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Receivers, Amps, and Processors
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The BIG fat lie of 4K support in AV receivers