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New Official Axiom Audio Speaker Owners Thread - Page 9

post #241 of 362
A great article from Axiom's Monthly Newsletter on how they assemble their tweeters in-house overseas. It is nice to know that their tweeters are not OEM from a generic manufacturer as is often claimed.

The video encompasses all of the article & worth watching:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/building-a-tweeter/

TAM
post #242 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

That thread started off fine but went downhill very fast and then the "experts" started saying the color of the wire used will change the sound...the sound is different because of the type of dye used to make the color that is in the wiring...

I would agree the points you made above (if they were indeed discussed) are ridiculous. However, those points were hardly all that was discussed. The other relevancy you either ignored intentionally or accidentally. I'm guessing intentionally, but I'll leave it at that. smile.gif
post #243 of 362
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

I would agree the points you made above (if they were indeed discussed) are ridiculous. However, those points were hardly all that was discussed. The other relevancy you either ignored intentionally or accidentally. I'm guessing intentionally, but I'll leave it at that. smile.gif


Actually, about half the thread is about being able to hear the difference between capacitor brands, speaker cable cover colors, materials used in power cords, etc. Quite entertaining but not very enlightening.

Dan Richie (the guy who posts a LOT in the thread and is very critical of Axiom) can hear the type of wall plug and power cable in use and tell you if it is a cheap one or a very expensive one...which tells me I should ignore everything he claims he can hear. See page 6 to read it yourself. On page 7 he actually says he can hear a difference in sound based on the color of dye used in the coloring of the cable jacket. Everyone should ignore everything he claims to be able to hear wrt audio equipment.

I am off to buy yellow paint for my cables to make my system sound brighter...
post #244 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Actually, about half the thread is about being able to hear the difference between capacitor brands, speaker cable cover colors, materials used in power cords, etc. Quite entertaining but not very enlightening.

Dan Richie (the guy who posts a LOT in the thread and is very critical of Axiom) can hear the type of wall plug and power cable in use and tell you if it is a cheap one or a very expensive one...which tells me I should ignore everything he claims he can hear. See page 6 to read it yourself. On page 7 he actually says he can hear a difference in sound based on the color of dye used in the coloring of the cable jacket. Everyone should ignore everything he claims to be able to hear wrt audio equipment.

I am off to buy yellow paint for my cables to make my system sound brighter...
While I agree that Danny Richie's comments lost all their credibility when he started taking about hearing stuff he couldn't measure, and attributing them to things that made no sense, Dr. Floyd Toole's comments never lost credibility, and they speak directly to the topic you and I have discussed in the past... using two widely spaced tweeters on one speaker:
Quote:
Comb filtering is acoustical interference - alternating between constructive, for the peaks, and destructive, for the dips. There are many opportunities for acoustical interference to arise, so let's look a some of the common ones. It makes a huge difference whether we are talking about the sound source itself, a loudspeaker, where all of the sounds, delayed or not, originate from essentially the same point in space, or of a loudspeaker in a room, where the direct and reflected sounds arrive at our ears from distinctly different directions.

Because of binaural hearing and the difference in direction, the perception of "comb filtering" as it occurs in a typical room is essentially benign - it is heard as spaciousness. In normal rooms, there are many such reflections, each one different, so any audible detriment is even less likely. However, a microphone and an analyzer would show comb filtering. Two ears and a brain are very different from a microphone and an analyzer, and we simply do not hear what is measured. This is the popular context within which comb filtering debates occur, and it is the one to which the quote from my book pertains. That quote mentioned in this AVS thread does not apply to acoustical interference among the drivers of a loudspeaker. That is discussed in my book in connection with Figure 18.18, where the problems of non-optimum multidriver systems are revealed.

If the direct and delayed sounds originate from the same point in space, then one may hear something undesirable. There are two common circumstances:

1. If the interference is in the program material, as in the example of a lavalier and podium mic being on simultaneously, it will be very easily heard. Because both mics are broadband, there is opportunity for many "teeth" in the comb. The effect is magnified in a room because every sound radiated by the loudspeaker in every direction contains exactly the same comb filter.

However, if the acoustical interference occurs between multiple drivers in a loudspeaker, the acoustical interference will have a shape that is different for different radiation angles from the loudspeaker (different distances from the interfering sound sources). It is unlikely that a well-structured "comb" will be evident because the interference typically occurs only over a narrow range of frequencies. Typically, it would be a "one-tooth" comb.

Because of this the term comb filtering is not really appropriate, but the term acoustical interference absolutely is. This is revealed in the on- and off-axis measurements of the loudspeaker in question on this thread.

In this case the ability to hear the effect will depend on how the different sounds at the different radiation axes propagate through a reflective room.

In a "dead" room they are likely to be more audible than in a "live" room, where some amount of spatial averaging may occur. Listening close up will be more revealing than listening at a distance, and so on.

In making measurements, placing the mic too close - in the near field - will artificially aggravate the appearance of the problem, so do the measurements at a distance of at least 2 m. The "far field", where we want to be making measurements, is defined as between 3 and 10 times the largest dimension of the sound source (Beranek).

This is what happens when you deploy two tweeters widely spaced horizontally:



I don't know why you wouldn't believe Floyd Toole. In our other discussions you referenced him IIRC.

Craig
post #245 of 362
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

While I agree that Danny Richie's comments lost all their credibility when he started taking about hearing stuff he couldn't measure, and attributing them to things that made no sense, Dr. Floyd Toole's comments never lost credibility, and they speak directly to the topic you and I have discussed in the past... using two widely spaced tweeters on one speaker:
This is what happens when you deploy two tweeters widely spaced horizontally:

I don't know why you wouldn't believe Floyd Toole. In our other discussions you referenced him IIRC.

Craig

I never said I did not believe him, nor did I say purposefully inducing comb filtering was a good thing. I did say the thread, about half way through, became quite entertaining in its content. I said the main anti-axiomite in the thread proved that we should ignore every he said wrt anything that requires listening because of his magical ears.

Explain how you took my statements about the thread and turned them into your invention that I do not believe Mr. Toole; I am looking forward to more entertainment. smile.gif
Edited by cybrsage - 8/21/13 at 6:10pm
post #246 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

Cool, very exciting. Be sure to let us know when it arrives and be sure to take pics. Damn , I just looked at google maps ,glad its not me waiting on that biggrin.gif Hopefully they sent it air.

I started my axiom experience with M2's ,QS4's and vp100 with a sub,(all the budget would allow at that time) and I worked excellent in my tiny little room and huge improvement over the sony htib speakers I was using.

Richard

The speakers arrived yesterday.

Axiom speakers.JPG 103k .JPG file

A Yamaha RX-V471 is the AVR used with this system. The room is about 14' x 22' rectangle and about 2.400 cubic ft.
Edited by Chris Gerhard - 8/20/13 at 3:55pm
post #247 of 362
Thread Starter 
Post pics when they are installed. smile.gif
post #248 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

I never said I did not believe him, nor did I say purposefully inducing comb filtering was a good thing.

But I noticed that you intentionally chose to ignore it in reply to my post referencing the thread. Care to share your motivations why? smile.gif
post #249 of 362
Thread Starter 
Because it had nothing to do with the color of cable sheathing causing the sound be changed.
post #250 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

But I noticed that you intentionally chose to ignore it in reply to my post referencing the thread. Care to share your motivations why? smile.gif


Do you own ,or have you ever owned Axiom M80,s , have your ever listened to any??? BTW happy faces don't mask your underlying intent.
post #251 of 362
As a long time Axiom owner I gotta say:

What an awful owners thread this is.

Non-stop bickering back and forth between a select few overly-zealous one way or the other for hundreds of posts.

Wish this thread was more about actual Axiom owners sharing helpful information like speaker placement, component settings, room treatments and just sharing photos and experiences with their beloved systems and even displeasures they have with their Axiom as owners of Axiom products with actual experience.

That is clearly not happening here and this thread is such a mess of negativity and unhelpful and uninteresting crap that it's not worth re-visiting to be honest.

I'm also seeing all over the internet the same negative stuff being thrown around about Axiom in the comments of any article or review the same wording, like the same few people are on some crusade to smear the company into non-existance. It's actually kind of impressive, the level of dedication!

Comb filtering, WE GET IT!!!! There's comb filtering! OK....NEXT!
post #252 of 362
Honestly , regardless of Danny Richies experience I would not hitch myself to his wagon. I suspect he may indeed believe in Santa ( He really doesn't exist sorry fella's). Danny Richie is most definitely entitled to his opinion , but Andrew Welker, a respected speaker designer and Ian are both engineers as well and they choose to build speakers their way rather than act like sheep and follow the herd. I was absorbing all the info in that thread and trying to draw my own conclusions but then Danny went bonkers and started saying he could hear wall plugs I closed the page and moved on.

I fail to see why there is a need to regurgitate other peoples opinions from bits extracted from other threads. If you own or owned an axiom product and didn't like it fine, sell it and move on like a normal person would do. If anyone who hasn't heard said speaker they should shut up and go away. Its no ones business what someone else like. A microphone is not equivalent to 2 ears and a brain, we measure things in an attempt to make some sense of what people hear and what they like to hear. I don't like my music flat, I like certain frequencies boosted a bit ,is it wrong ? I certainly don't think so ,all that matters is that I am happy. I would not tell anyone what car to drive anymore than what speaker they should listen to. If someone wants to come and say they have a certain product and would like to critique it I find that acceptable but to attack something you have never heard is absurd.



Richard <<<< Dons flame suit.
post #253 of 362
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

Do you own ,or have you ever owned Axiom M80,s , have your ever listened to any??? BTW happy faces don't mask your underlying intent.

I only comment about the speakers I have actually heard and / or own. This limits my experience to the Onwall M0, M2, and M3.
post #254 of 362
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoggyTwinkles View Post

As a long time Axiom owner I gotta say:

What an awful owners thread this is.

Non-stop bickering back and forth between a select few overly-zealous one way or the other for hundreds of posts.

Wish this thread was more about actual Axiom owners sharing helpful information like speaker placement, component settings, room treatments and just sharing photos and experiences with their beloved systems and even displeasures they have with their Axiom as owners of Axiom products with actual experience.

That is clearly not happening here and this thread is such a mess of negativity and unhelpful and uninteresting crap that it's not worth re-visiting to be honest.

I'm also seeing all over the internet the same negative stuff being thrown around about Axiom in the comments of any article or review the same wording, like the same few people are on some crusade to smear the company into non-existance. It's actually kind of impressive, the level of dedication!

Comb filtering, WE GET IT!!!! There's comb filtering! OK....NEXT!

So far, no one has asked about speaker placement, room treatments, etc. Ask away and I am sure you will get answers. smile.gif The thread started great but then the anti-axiomites started to attack again, I am not quite sure why they feel the need to attack speakers they do not own, but I also am not sure why people mug other people for only $5 and doubt I ever will.

Here are mine:

The rear four. I also have two more M3s on the side for the front row and they are connected in parallel with the two M2s you see on the sides - making them act like one big 4 Ohm speaker.


The front three are Paradigm Milleniums, but the front heights are Axiom Audio M0s. I plan on eventually replacing the two side M2s with M3s and moving the M2s to the front to replace these M0s.
post #255 of 362
I need a couple of those comfy looking chairs....

TAM
post #256 of 362
Thread Starter 
They are sold by http://www.rtheaters.com/ and a forum member, Roman, owns the company. His profile is here: http://www.avsforum.com/u/4371/rsh

They are very nice chairs. I got the power recline and the real leather.
post #257 of 362
cybr: Thanks for the link. They obviously make very nice stuff.

Unfortunately, my 4 cats would just love to get at the fine leather covering, ha!

TAM
post #258 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

Do you own ,or have you ever owned Axiom M80,s , have your ever listened to any??? BTW happy faces don't mask your underlying intent.

The question wasn't for you.
post #259 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Because it had nothing to do with the color of cable sheathing causing the sound be changed.

But it was relevant information contained within the thread. You chose to use the least significant portions of it (nonsense about cable color), and only after someone else mentioned it did you choose to even acknowledge to the real substance contained within the thread in question. That's my point. Thank you.
post #260 of 362
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

But it was relevant information contained within the thread. You chose to use the least significant portions of it (nonsense about cable color), and only after someone else mentioned it did you choose to even acknowledge to the real substance contained within the thread in question. That's my point. Thank you.

If you have something constructive to say about the speakers you own, post them. Which Axiom Audio speakers do you own, btw? This IS the New Official Axiom Audio Speaker Owners Thread. What do you like or dislike about the Axiom speakers you own? Can you post pics of them as well so others can see your nice setup?
post #261 of 362
bo130 is correct cybersage the question was not directed at you. That is a really sweet setup you have , thanks for posting pics of it. I wish I had a camera with a wide angle lens so I can share . I have wide angle for my film camera but have never bought a really got digital camera that would accept AE lense. I will post some pics up soon. I agree , I really see no need for someone to rant on about speakers they don't own, and regurgitate other people's opinions its just not helpful to anyone.




No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn't good until it sounds good. – Dr. Floyd Toole


This is a shot about a year ago. All same except subs
DSCF9619Small.jpg


These are the subs I have now
20130801_123240Small_zps2072b982.jpg
Edited by Socketman - 8/22/13 at 6:55pm
post #262 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

So far, no one has asked about speaker placement, room treatments, etc. Ask away and I am sure you will get answers. smile.gif The thread started great but then the anti-axiomites started to attack again, I am not quite sure why they feel the need to attack speakers they do not own, but I also am not sure why people mug other people for only $5 and doubt I ever will.

Yeah sorry if I came off a bit strong saying this thread is an awful owners thread. And I guess I should actually contribute something myself, though I'm more the lurker type on forums. I just think it's a shame that an ownersthread is allowed to be muddled up with the same negative thing over and over. Axiom used to be talked about quite positively and perhaps they're not the best in their class or price range anymore (if they ever were) but an owners thread should be for actual owners to share stuff like every other thread here is you know? If I go into the Klipsch owners thread it's not page after page of the same few people trashing horn tweeters for example, that wouldn't be allowed because it's not enjoyable or helpful. I think the same idea should apply to the Axiom owners thread (especially considering it already needed a NEW try already, and deteriorated into the same thing as the last one)

Anyway, here's my modest set-up featuring Axiom M60, VP100, and M22 for surrounds. I started off with the M3 but experienced listener fatigue and called up Axiom and she sent fed ex over and sent me the M22, added the VP100 and later went for the M60 moving the M22 to surround. Never had a subwoofer btw. Would love one but never felt I needed one considering I've received complaints about bass in my apartment just from the M60's, so I'm rockin' a 5.0 system.


post #263 of 362
Thanks for sharing your system with us and I for one take no offence to anything you have stated thus far,no apologies required. I myself would never dream of going to another forum and trash talk, like people like to do in this thread. You make some very valid points. Being an audio enthusiast and living in an apartment is a real pain, trust me I know been there done that. Too bad they don't make an effort to sound proof when they build.


Richard
post #264 of 362
Thread Starter 
Did not take offense and I feel the same way. It is sad that people who do not actually own the speakers feel the need to trash talk them. I have to wonder what kind of life (or lack thereof) such people must have to spend their time trolling a speaker company online.

Does that system physically blow your hair around? Wow! Nice touch with the HTPC showing the forum, too smile.gif
post #265 of 362
Check out this user review (post #396211) at Axiom of the new M100s. The poster is certainly more fastidious about sound & reviewing than I am so it is most interesting to me.

As with any review it's highly subjective but he certainly likes his purchase so far:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php/topics/396152/M100s_Arrived_This_Morning#Post396152

TAM
post #266 of 362
My Axiom Epic Grand Master 350 speaker system has been installed a couple of days now. In a 14' x 22' room, seating about in the middle, with speakers placed in this configuration:

Center 0°

R main 30°

R surround 110°

L surround 250°

L main 330°

with the sub sitting left front. The room isn't finished yet and I will post a picture at some point after it is.

This system isn't a starter set for me, it replaces an inexpensive HTIB in the room and it is hoped it will last a very long time. I don't plan on any upgrades to it although it is possible in a few years I could replace the 5.1 AVR with a 7.1 AVR and add two QS8 rear surround speakers. Like most people with surround sound systems, this will be used for music and movies.

So far I have listened to The Marvin Gaye Collection 5.1 SACD, Neil Young Harvest 5.1 DVD-A, Talking Heads Remain in Light 5.1 DVD-A, Chicago 5.1 DVD-A, Jackson Browne Running on Empty 5.1 DVD-A, and snippets from about a dozen other surround pop and rock music discs. With the modest M22 bookshelf speakers as the main speakers, it might appear on paper the mains would be over matched by the center, sub and surround speakers, maybe the M80 is the optimal choice for mains with the others in this system. The concern I had was the M22s would be bright and my first test with the Marvin Gaye disc should have highlighted that if that is going to be an issue. The sound was very balanced, not bright at all to my ears.

We watched "The Dark Knight Rises" Blu-ray as the first film, I had never seen it although the female head of household had taken granddaughters to see it during the theatrical run. I was delighted with how this system handled every aspect of the sound.

Overall I am very pleased so far. I don't have any experience with a comparably priced current system from other manufacturers in my home so I can't say how it compares to the competition, I suspect it holds its own based on in store listening and other households I have been to. I do have two other systems in house, home theater with 7.1 and master bedroom with 5.1. All have a Yamaha AVR.

I told the female head of household that we were probably the last house in the neighborhood to get the third HT setup, everybody else already has three. That was hard to say with a straight face. I found a post on one of the forums by some other nutcase with four systems, one a 9.1 set up, and showed that to her to try to make her feel more comfortable with having a house full of this crap. She said we don't have a room for a fourth system, I am trying to divert her attention from the fact we have three so she won't insist I rip out one or two of them or send me packing with all three. Maybe she will be happy I haven't set up four systems?

If a few hundred people will quote my post and indicate they also have three systems, that would be helpful as well. She had insisted before set up that she wouldn't be able to tell the difference from the tiny 5.1 HTIB speaker system but she admitted she can and the Axiom system meets with her approval, both in appearance and sound. I love this Axiom system.

All equipment in this den system with the Axiom speakers:

LG 50" 720p Plasma
Yamaha RX-V471
Oppo DV-980H
Sony NSZ-GT1 Blu-ray with Google TV
Vizio Co-Star Google TV
Google Chromecast
TiVoHD for OTA
Roku LT
HDMI 4 switch

Off topic, just in case anyone is scratching their heads, the dual Google TV boxes are only necessary when streaming major golf tournaments, I used both during the Masters, US Open, British Open and PGA championship, multiple feeds are streaming from whichever site is handling the tournament and stopping and starting feeds takes way too long, switching from one to another with both running takes a couple of seconds. Cutting the cord requires jumping through hoops but ESPN3 and PGA.com mean I can watch golf for four days, four times a year when it is most important to me.

In a few months, I will have used this system enough to offer more about the speakers but I can be included in group that loves Axiom speakers. I can say now for surround music it is a dream come true for me. I am happy with it for movies and stereo music as well but it shines for surround music, I am a forty plus year fan of music in surround, dating back to the early days of quadraphonic music releases.
post #267 of 362
Nice review. I have somewhat the same system - M22s & QS4s but with the smaller VP100 & a couple of modest 10" Velodyne subs. It all works wonderfully for me in my medium sized room & has provided my family with countless hours of qulity enjoyment.

Don't worry about how your system compares to other gear. There's too much of that going on out there - it's simply not a fight to the death. As long as you are pleased & happy, that's all that matters.

Enjoy...

TAM
post #268 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-labdriver View Post

Nice review. I have somewhat the same system - M22s & QS4s but with the smaller VP100 & a couple of modest 10" Velodyne subs. It all works wonderfully for me in my medium sized room & has provided my family with countless hours of qulity enjoyment.

Don't worry about how your system compares to other gear. There's too much of that going on out there - it's simply not a fight to the death. As long as you are pleased & happy, that's all that matters.

Enjoy...

TAM

I am not at all worried about how these speakers compare to others and it is good to hear another long time user of Axiom speakers continues to be happy. I think we are typical, most people would be delighted with these speakers. A big issue for me was female approval and it passed, thank goodness.
post #269 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

Thanks for sharing your system with us and I for one take no offence to anything you have stated thus far,no apologies required. I myself would never dream of going to another forum and trash talk, like people like to do in this thread. You make some very valid points. Being an audio enthusiast and living in an apartment is a real pain, trust me I know been there done that. Too bad they don't make an effort to sound proof when they build.


Richard

No problem thanks for looking. Yeah I just think AVS forums is a really great resource for audio/video enthusiasts and each product I own has a place here to discuss, show, troubleshoot etc. Axiom should be no different IMO. Obviously negative views should be discussed as well, but to a certain reasonable extent where it's not overwhelming the point of the thread in the first place.

That center speaker!!!!eek.gif Looks amazing is that a custom build?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Did not take offense and I feel the same way. It is sad that people who do not actually own the speakers feel the need to trash talk them. I have to wonder what kind of life (or lack thereof) such people must have to spend their time trolling a speaker company online.

Does that system physically blow your hair around? Wow! Nice touch with the HTPC showing the forum, too smile.gif

Haha! DIdn't realize I had the forum up when I took the photo. Unfortunately the system is unlikely to blow my hair around living in an apartment the past 2 years now, but prior to that I lived with my parents in a house and these in the basement and they can take anything I threw at them at ridiculous volumes on a few occasions just to see what they could do biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard View Post

I am not at all worried about how these speakers compare to others and it is good to hear another long time user of Axiom speakers continues to be happy. I think we are typical, most people would be delighted with these speakers. A big issue for me was female approval and it passed, thank goodness.

Yeah, I don't even know a single person who has invested in modern stand alone speakers actually. I have a brother-in-law who has Bose bookshelves from 30 years ago, a co-worker who has vintage Kenwoods he got at a yardsale.....my dad still has Yamaha's from the late 70's when he went through his audio improvement phase. But everyone I know just listens through their TV, or tiny HTIB speakers etc. I'll probably have these Axioms until I die because they're simply more than adequate for my usage and should be forever really. Speakers should last a lifetime if they sound good to you IMO.
post #270 of 362
Reluctantly I finally retired my vintage Axiom AX2s from the early 90s last year - talk about quality & longevity! They still work beautifully, are in pristine condition & are now lovingly stored in my garage.

I replaced them with M2s & a couple of EP400 Subs & am most happy. Now that I'm officially an old phart, I have a feeling that this will be my last system...

TAM
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