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"Black" Theater Improvment Thread (Once you go black you never go back?) - Page 10

post #271 of 721
black walls was a no-go but i talked the wife into some dark flat red walls. looks good with our decor during the day and blends well into the dark
post #272 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

The best paint is still going to have reflections.

The protostar is an idea since it's so easy to work with and cut to fit. Although if you put it on the walls, it's not coming off. Maybe a method of mounting it on a backing board first would work.

refitting the curtains is probably the safest bet if your not staying there for long.


I'm getting ready for phase 2 of my blackout project. I did the ceiling in January 2013 with blackout tiles from prime-acoustic. They are nice black fiberglass tiles with some sound insulation.

I was recently calibrating my RS55 and I realized there was more reflections off these tiles than I was originally noticing. In bright scenes, the grid of ceiling is pitch black, but I can see the tiles in my peripheral vision. During low APL scenes, the HP is still bright enough to cause reflections from the tiles, in turn, washing out the screen a bit and hurting contrast. I tested this with the old 'flashlight trick'.

now I'm back to the idea I was dreading 8 months ago, take down 50+ tiles and cover them each with the protostar material. I have a TON of the material sitting in a box, I might as well get to it already.

in this photo I raised the mid level a bit so we can see the difference in 'black' between the protostar material and the black painted tiles. The tiles suddenly don't look so black.

blacktile3.jpg

blackout.jpg

you know you have a sickness right? tongue.gif
post #273 of 721
Guys,

I currently have a wall mounted plasma but designed my dedicated room with a soffit to mount an electric screen that will drop down ten inches in front of the plasma. Anyone know if I will run into any special issues in blacking out the area around the drop down screen? I can't really think of any.
post #274 of 721
FYI prostar sells the blackout material already attached to backing and they can custom cut to size. I used 14 to treat front 2 rows of my screen area recently.

http://www.fpi-protostar.com/flockboard.htm
post #275 of 721
but Protostar t is big bucks.. 50 cents an inch at 26" wide for the flock board... Velvet is less expensive even with the can of super 77, $22 x2 a sheet for ply wood and time.. The velvet looks better and is blacker..I did compare the flock board sample to velvet and the wife and I both could see that the velvet was blacker and better looking.. BTW just finished installing my 5 30x41" velvet panels and what a difference it makes!!! Going to try and add a curved section to soften the look..
post #276 of 721
Blacking out my theater was the most expensive upgrade I ever done. The blacks on my projector looked horrible and I had to get a JVC to get it to look good.

Then I became obsessed with blacking everything out. Long story short. My walls and ceiling are covered in black velvet. I have a black rug, black real leather couch,
black matte speakers. I even have a special home theater black velvet outfit that I wear and my girl has one too. All led lights have been blacked out with the
tint stickers and when we watch a movie it is 100% immersive.

I have declared war on light in my home theater.

Kidding on the black velvet outfit, but it has crossed my mind.
post #277 of 721
Quote:
but Protostar t is big bucks..

30" x 200" roll for $ 85.00 goes a long way. The 500" roll is an even better deal.
post #278 of 721
Hi Craig how much is the 500" roll if you know by chance?
post #279 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

30" x 200" roll for $ 85.00 goes a long way. The 500" roll is an even better deal.

The flock board at 26" wide is what I was talking about but I see I never typed that out ..
post #280 of 721
Quote:
Hi Craig how much is the 500" roll if you know by chance?

http://www.protostar.biz/hitack.htm
post #281 of 721
Having seen the improvement that Zombie's ceiling blackout made via his excellent pictures, I am now looking at ways to accomplish that in my home theater room. I'll have to go the black cloth/velvet route because paint isn't really possible. My ceiling is white and heavily textured (picture endless sea of small spikes). There is really no way to paint it unless you spray painted, and that would be more than a little too risky to attempt. Not to mention that there is no way to clean the surface before painting, and its 20 years old, so more than a bit dusty, etc.

And so, I will need some kind of black fabric. I've had little luck finding the brands of black velvet mentioned here, online, for sale. Also, someone mentioned having to spend over $1,500.00 just for a small room. I will need two 8x8 foot pieces for the ceiling, and two 8x6 foot pieces for the front portion of the side walls, and it has to be inexpensive. How to attach it though? Just spread it out while having help holding it, and tack it to the ceiling? I cant use anything like adhesive, since it would destroy the patch of ceiling surface that it touched.

Any recommendations, or help would be appreciated.


John
post #282 of 721
I put strips going across the width of my room. The velvet came in a roll 40 something inches wide. I'm pretty sure the sides of the velvet had some kind of border that was a more normal fabric. I started on one side of the room and stapled (using a staple gun) the fabric to the ceiling through that border part such that the velvet would all be facing up towards the ceiling if the whole strip were stapled up that way. I went down the entire length making sure it was tight. Then I pulled the fabric back so that it folded over the part that was stapled and the velvet was facing down. I stapled the other end up and then repeated so that the folded part for the next strip covered the end of the first strip. Doing it all the way down like this gives you nice seams across the ceiling. It might be more difficult with a popcorn ceiling but should still be doable. You've got to figure out what to do with that last strip. I think I used a thin piece of wood and folded the velvet around it and attached that to the ceiling.
post #283 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Clark View Post

Having seen the improvement that Zombie's ceiling blackout made via his excellent pictures, I am now looking at ways to accomplish that in my home theater room. I'll have to go the black cloth/velvet route because paint isn't really possible. My ceiling is white and heavily textured (picture endless sea of small spikes). There is really no way to paint it unless you spray painted, and that would be more than a little too risky to attempt. Not to mention that there is no way to clean the surface before painting, and its 20 years old, so more than a bit dusty, etc.

And so, I will need some kind of black fabric. I've had little luck finding the brands of black velvet mentioned here, online, for sale. Also, someone mentioned having to spend over $1,500.00 just for a small room. I will need two 8x8 foot pieces for the ceiling, and two 8x6 foot pieces for the front portion of the side walls, and it has to be inexpensive. How to attach it though? Just spread it out while having help holding it, and tack it to the ceiling? I cant use anything like adhesive, since it would destroy the patch of ceiling surface that it touched.

Any recommendations, or help would be appreciated.


John

i recently painted my textured ceiling. it's not that bad, as long as you do it properly(basically you use a thick roller and only go over it once, then let the paint dry. if you keep rolling back and forth you'll pull off the wet texture and make a mess instead) however it does suck up the paint. took me three gallons and there's still spots that could use some touch ups. however, the stuff is super easy to remove. spray a little water on it, scrap with putty knife, done. if i could go back and start over, i would have just removed it. i actually had to make a large repair(about 4'x6') and was debating whether it would be easier to remove all the texture, or texture match the repair. in the end i made the wrong decision and texture matched, haha.

you can see the difference in this pic. white is the original ceiling. i had hoped to have enough paint to do the whole ceiling if i wanted, but instead i had to go back and pick up a gallon just to finish what i started. anyway, i wouldn't let the texture stop you. it may mean other options are easier, or cheaper, but not necessarily. i'd still rather paint my ceiling again than try to cover it with fabric
post #284 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Clark View Post

Having seen the improvement that Zombie's ceiling blackout made via his excellent pictures, I am now looking at ways to accomplish that in my home theater room. I'll have to go the black cloth/velvet route because paint isn't really possible. My ceiling is white and heavily textured (picture endless sea of small spikes). There is really no way to paint it unless you spray painted, and that would be more than a little too risky to attempt. Not to mention that there is no way to clean the surface before painting, and its 20 years old, so more than a bit dusty, etc.

And so, I will need some kind of black fabric. I've had little luck finding the brands of black velvet mentioned here, online, for sale. Also, someone mentioned having to spend over $1,500.00 just for a small room. I will need two 8x8 foot pieces for the ceiling, and two 8x6 foot pieces for the front portion of the side walls, and it has to be inexpensive. How to attach it though? Just spread it out while having help holding it, and tack it to the ceiling? I cant use anything like adhesive, since it would destroy the patch of ceiling surface that it touched.

Any recommendations, or help would be appreciated.


John

Hi John! There are a dozen ways to do this any of them would be better than white.
Paint requires the least skill set and is probably the least expensive, but paint still has some reflective properties.
The Protostar adhesive flock and flock board are an option. The flock board is the same black material as the adhesive paper but on a thin solid plastic and is only 26" wide. Call or email them they will provide samples in the mail http://www.protostar.biz/flock.htm

Triple black Velvet is available at your local Joan Fabrics or from them on line for $14.99 normally http://www.joann.com/search/_royalty%203%20velvet/, but they have constant 40% off coupons on their site and a monthly %50 off http://www.joann.com/coupon/. I like this product the best as it is heavier with a tighter weave on the backing. Unfortunately it is on sale for 30% off and you can not use a coupon.. mad.gif

This next velvet is talked up in the DIY screen forum and I have used it, it is ok but lighter in weight and has a thinner backing that I thin would allow the glue to soak through more readily . You also have to pay shipping so that figures into the price
http://www.syfabrics.com/View.aspx/Plush-Triple-Velvet/Black-Plush-Velvet/681/264

Now how you attach it is where the DIY creativity comes into play. I have a smooth Plaster over Rock Lath ceiling and wanted to be able to remove the ceiling treatment if we need to sell our house. This would be to take the treatment with me and return the living room to a normal white ceiling and did not want to spend a lot of time to make this happen. I did some tests with Velvet on foam core boards held up with mounting tape.. Would be a nightmare to remove all the pieces of tape and the boards would bend and break removing them.
So I used 1/4 Sandeply plywood from HD. This is a step above 5mm underlayment and a little more expensive ($22 a sheet). Cut each piece to 30x41 (velvet is 44" wide)
spray wood with super 77 adhesive, spray velvet with the same, let dry 1 minute and putem together. 6 hands would make it easy but I did it solo, the adhesive is repositionable so you lift and smooth, lift and smooth, wrap and trim. The put it up with 18 gauge nail gun though plywood, plaster and into joists. Next is to add another 16" curved piece to give a stage fee. When removing (did a test) you end up with a bunch of tiny holes that will be filed primed and painted, ceiling paint can be touched up without showing so back to white in less than a day.

For the walls I wanted completely clean no rods hooks or anything during the day so the only options I could think of was magnets. I will be making velvet panels with magnets along the top to attache to that sheet metal I affixed to the walls. I have a bunch of velvet from my past masking project I will reuse and will buy more as needed. I don't mind hanging it up and pulling it down each night, a small price to pay for a brighter room during the day.

http://misc.airscapesart.com/livingroom/index.html
Edited by airscapes - 8/20/13 at 6:09am
post #285 of 721
I recently just finished putting up velvet on the wall surrounding the screen as well as the ceiling right next to the screen. I decided to go the route of creating thin frames from 12 foot boards, then upholstering the frame with the velvet stretched out and then stapled on the backside of the wood. I wouldn't recommend stapling directly into drywall as it doesnt have the right friction to hold the staples well over time, and would also leave visible dimples. Once the frame was upholstered with the velvet, I used some basic hardware on the backside of the frame to screw the setup into the studs in the wall / ceiling.

The results are pretty outstanding compared to before (white ceiling), and the contrast has really gone up a noticeable amount. Now the only question that remains for me is whether or not to paint the rest of the ceiling outside of the 12 foot x 5 foot velvet that is immediately next to the screen.
post #286 of 721
What are you all doing for the speakers? Mine have black cones but they are still a bit reflective and they don't even have covers. Even if they did, I have to imagine they would still be visible -- and thus distracting -- if the rest of the room up there is invisible black velvet.
post #287 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

What are you all doing for the speakers? Mine have black cones but they are still a bit reflective and they don't even have covers. Even if they did, I have to imagine they would still be visible -- and thus distracting -- if the rest of the room up there is invisible black velvet.

I keep my speaker cover/grills on. And I made fitted black velvet covers for my L/C/R speakers which surruond my screen. So they completely disappear with lights out. I highly recommend this as a finishing touch.

As for your black speaker cones, I'm not sure why they would be reflecting much light to begin with. Aren't they aimed toward you, away from the screen? And do you watch with the lights off?
If so, then there should be so little light hitting them you wouldn't be likely to see the speaker cones in the dark. Unless you have a very reflective room, or keep some lights on, or your speakers are aimed at angles toward the screen that allow screen light to reflect on your speaker cones?
post #288 of 721
Well, this thread is about cutting out even the light reflected by flat black paint or materials less dark than black velvet. If all light is swallowed in my field of view by black velvet except speakers, I think they will jump out at me. I can cover the back and sides of the speakers with velvet as you did, but not the fronts with the cones.
post #289 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

Well, this thread is about cutting out even the light reflected by flat black paint or materials less dark than black velvet. If all light is swallowed in my field of view by black velvet except speakers, I think they will jump out at me. I can cover the back and sides of the speakers with velvet as you did, but not the fronts with the cones.
So are you speakers behind an AT screen if not why are there no grills on the speakers? Maybe make some black covers out or AT fabric if they are DIY cabinets?
post #290 of 721
I know a guy who really wanted to evaluate contrast etc so he had a room that was entirely covered with velvet including the floor. I walked in and could see what looked like maybe a ten to 12' screen at the other end of the room. I became disoriented for a second not being able to see anything but the screen. It was very strange indeed. Interestingly, I think the screen was about half the size I thought it was.

Art
Edited by Art Sonneborn - 8/20/13 at 11:41am
post #291 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

Well, this thread is about cutting out even the light reflected by flat black paint or materials less dark than black velvet. If all light is swallowed in my field of view by black velvet except speakers, I think they will jump out at me. I can cover the back and sides of the speakers with velvet as you did, but not the fronts with the cones.

But they shouldn't be visible if they are facing away from the screen.

The reason people talk about using black paint or velvet/felt on areas like ceilings, walls and floors is because they are at angles to the screen that entails light from the screen will reflect directly on to those surfaces. That's why they will light up so much. But if a surface is not at such an angle to the screen, then it's not going to face the same issues. If you painted a board black and placed it directly face up under your screen, the direct reflected light on to that surface angle will make it visible in the dark. But hold up that board and now face the painted surface toward the viewer, and no it's not receiving any direct reflection from the screen at all to light it up. You won't see it, it will look pitch black.

It's the same for my speaker grills. They are supposed to be "black" but they aren't, they are more grayish. If the speakers are turned toward the screen to catch the directly reflected light form the screen, the speaker grills light up quite visibly in the dark. But there's no reason for them to be pointed at the screen; they point outward to the viewer, hence that grayish surface receives no more light than the teeny amount reflected back from the room. They become, in the dark, as pitch black as the surrounding black velvet, and disappear from view with the lights off.

I'd think it likely to be the case with your speaker drivers, so long as they are facing away from the screen, toward you, and so long as your room isn't too bright that reflected light from your room (instead of the screen) makes them visible.

Can you see the drivers now when you watch a movie in the dark? If not, then you won't see them by darkening your surruondings either.

If you do see your speaker drivers, how light colored is your room, and are your speakers angled inward so much that the drivers are somehow cathing light reflected right off the screen?
post #292 of 721
Ah, gotcha. I did check tonight and I couldn't really see the speakers (well, some of the stands were lit a bit).

My current setup is navy sheets on the screen wall, coming out 6' or so on the ceiling and the left side wall. The right side doesn't have a wall, it's open to the rest of the basement. Floor is beigeish carpet so not dark at all. To make it worse there is tons of stuff to see in peripheral vision; bookcases, tv, file cabinets, etc.

Really looking forward to my new theater room with no distractions from the picture. This one is going to have nothing in it but screen, speakers, and seating.
post #293 of 721
Airscapes,


Thanks very much for the wealth of information. The assistance is truly appreciated.


John


Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Hi John! There are a dozen ways to do this any of them would be better than white.
Paint requires the least skill set and is probably the least expensive, but paint still has some reflective properties.
The Protostar adhesive flock and flock board are an option. The flock board is the same black material as the adhesive paper but on a thin solid plastic and is only 26" wide. Call or email them they will provide samples in the mail http://www.protostar.biz/flock.htm

Triple black Velvet is available at your local Joan Fabrics or from them on line for $14.99 normally http://www.joann.com/search/_royalty%203%20velvet/, but they have constant 40% off coupons on their site and a monthly %50 off http://www.joann.com/coupon/. I like this product the best as it is heavier with a tighter weave on the backing. Unfortunately it is on sale for 30% off and you can not use a coupon.. mad.gif

This next velvet is talked up in the DIY screen forum and I have used it, it is ok but lighter in weight and has a thinner backing that I thin would allow the glue to soak through more readily . You also have to pay shipping so that figures into the price
http://www.syfabrics.com/View.aspx/Plush-Triple-Velvet/Black-Plush-Velvet/681/264

Now how you attach it is where the DIY creativity comes into play. I have a smooth Plaster over Rock Lath ceiling and wanted to be able to remove the ceiling treatment if we need to sell our house. This would be to take the treatment with me and return the living room to a normal white ceiling and did not want to spend a lot of time to make this happen. I did some tests with Velvet on foam core boards held up with mounting tape.. Would be a nightmare to remove all the pieces of tape and the boards would bend and break removing them.
So I used 1/4 Sandeply plywood from HD. This is a step above 5mm underlayment and a little more expensive ($22 a sheet). Cut each piece to 30x41 (velvet is 44" wide)
spray wood with super 77 adhesive, spray velvet with the same, let dry 1 minute and putem together. 6 hands would make it easy but I did it solo, the adhesive is repositionable so you lift and smooth, lift and smooth, wrap and trim. The put it up with 18 gauge nail gun though plywood, plaster and into joists. Next is to add another 16" curved piece to give a stage fee. When removing (did a test) you end up with a bunch of tiny holes that will be filed primed and painted, ceiling paint can be touched up without showing so back to white in less than a day.

For the walls I wanted completely clean no rods hooks or anything during the day so the only options I could think of was magnets. I will be making velvet panels with magnets along the top to attache to that sheet metal I affixed to the walls. I have a bunch of velvet from my past masking project I will reuse and will buy more as needed. I don't mind hanging it up and pulling it down each night, a small price to pay for a brighter room during the day.

http://misc.airscapesart.com/livingroom/index.html
post #294 of 721
Finished the ceiling .. still need to make the wall treatments

IMG_0559.JPG
post #295 of 721
airscapes, the idea with magnets is brilliant. I think I'll use it for my own room. Any more info or photos on how magnets are distributed across the curtain? How powerful do the magnets need to be?
post #296 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

airscapes, the idea with magnets is brilliant. I think I'll use it for my own room. Any more info or photos on how magnets are distributed across the curtain? How powerful do the magnets need to be?

I use these http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D72 from K&J placed about every 8-10 inches. First I put a piece of 2" gaffers tape across the top back side of the velvet then add the magnets on top of the tape covered with another small piece of gaffers tape.

I update the link with the picture of the wall coverings but I guess I forgot to update this thread.
The wall coverings come out about 50" on each side wall. Unfortunately that massive Chief TV mount does not let the TV fit all that close to the wall. but with the lights out it really does not matter.
Link to all the livingroom update pictures

Oh best price of Gaffers tape. http://www.goodbuyguys.com/catalog/assortment-standard-2-in-x-55-yd-gaffers-tape-black-white-grey-p-369.html
Sorry Elix, not sure what you have available in your location.

IMG_0561web.jpg
post #297 of 721
Will the tape be able to hold magnets for a long time? Or is it better to sew the magnets into the fabric?
post #298 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

Will the tape be able to hold magnets for a long time? Or is it better to sew the magnets into the fabric?

No, in previous incarnations of velvet use for blacking out reflections I sewed them in. First, the dye in the velvet is not set and will come off on the wall, just rub some velvet on a white surface to test.
Second it is very hard to sew around the magnet to keep it from moving, the magnet grabs the needle and presser foot.
Third after about a year of use the magnets wear through the velvet.

This tape (Gaffers) is like duct tape but 10 times better in every way. It is made of heavy cloth so it is flexible and it is very sticky. It is used in the movie/theater world all the time but much more expensive than duct tape. With white Gaffers you get much less dye transfer and yes, it will last forever. Some times the cover piece can work loose, but just peel it off and put on new.. You can even use the tape in place of a sewing machine.. No Sew Making setup

One long piece of tape the width of the fabric, then add the magnets with another small piece of tape. Looks like I spaced these every 5 inches but I have a lot of them.




post #299 of 721
I've painted my back wall and 5ft out a purple black which really helps my black levels because most of my room was a light color the only thing is directly above the screen has become crazy reflective everywhere else looks good. My question is I have some black velour which to me looks and feels exactly like velvet I want to try using some of that to reduce the reflections anyone using Velour vs Velvet?
Edited by HDextreme - 8/24/13 at 11:33am
post #300 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDextreme View Post

I've painted my back wall and 5ft out a purple black which really helps my black levels because most of my room was a light color the only thing is directly above the screen has become crazy reflective everywhere else looks good. My question is I have some black velour which to me looks and feels exactly live velvet I want to try using some of that to reduce the reflections anyone using Velour vs Velvet?

Not the same.. but if you have it, make a test panel and stick it up there and see how it fairs
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