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help deciding on new speakers for 7.1 system - Page 2

post #31 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

Eh thats really confusing. What do you mean toe in?

And your saying angle the surrounds to point not at my ears but towards the north corners?

Toe in is another phrase for angle in towards the listening space. The base of the speakers are like feet with "toes."

With the side surrounds, you're aiming the left one towards the listener's ears seated to the right of you on the couch. The right one is aimed at the listener's ears seated to the left of you on the couch (just so long as the angle matches on both sides). biggrin.gif This is considering the couch being in place of the love seat.

It might be best to swap the couch with the love seat, so you get more prime seating locations to make this set up easier to aid in speaker positioning. At least until you get the speakers aimed, if you don't like the idea of swapping your furniture around. Ideally, place the center of the couch at the primary listening spot; your throne, if you will. wink.gif
Edited by Dan Hitchman - 3/26/13 at 5:36pm
post #32 of 314
Thread Starter 
Ya i was only wanting to set up the middle of the love seat as the listener, no other seat concerns me, as im the only one that needs or wants or will appreciate this setup. How do you suggest i set up the speakers where the love seat is the only spot thats being accounted for?
Edited by Axxion - 3/26/13 at 6:07pm
post #33 of 314
Your speaker placement looks pretty good to me, overall--good job! For one thing, the angular separation between the left & right fronts appears to be approximately 45 degrees (if you're sitting 9-10 feet back), which is considered by many to be ideal for home theater. However, there are a few concerns I want to raise and notes I want to make.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

photo_1_2.jpg

The left back surround is slightly boxed in by the fireplace structure, but as long as the front of the speaker clears it, then it's nothing that MCACC couldn't compensate for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

photo_1_3.jpg
photo_2_3.jpg

Just a minor point. The positions of the viewers' heads may vary somewhat, so make sure that if you err, you err on the side of the surround being slightly behind all of the viewers instead of in front, in the most extreme case. I do agree with moving them forward from where they were, however, since this is a 7.1 system with back surrounds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

what do you guys think?

There are no major issues that I can see at this point, if any, really. Acoustically, we shall see--hopefully things like reflections off the coffee table, for example, won't be an issue. You may also want to consider tilting your surround speakers downward, which you could do if hung them like picture frames. smile.gif

And by the way, I'm guessing that there isn't enough room to switch the locations of the large sofa and the loveseat, is there?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

As for speaker placement, i will lower the back surrounds to match the surrounds height when i get them. I did not know i had to match the height on those back 4, it was my understanding you wanted the surrounds a bit higher then left and right, which i was doing, but i was accounting for 5.1 not 7.1.

To me it's not that big of a deal, as what really counts are the angles rather than the absolute positions. For example, if the back surrounds are more distant from the viewers than side surrounds, then placing them higher on the wall may in fact make them sound like they're at the same effective "height" or rather angle. It's easier to say that they should all be at the same height, though (and in a perfect situation they would be), and it looks better anyway and usually gets the angles (which are what really count) close enough to correct. Don't worry about it too much--maybe just do whatever looks the best or makes you feel the most comfortable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

I should angle the front left and right and back surrounds to point towards the listener yes?

Yes, if the surrounds are directly beside the viewers, then as far as the front & back direction is concerned, point the two speakers right at each other across the room.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

The surrounds will be pointing directly at the listener, but should i attempt to angle these downward slightly? Or are they good just flat, as they will be 3 foot higher then ear level?

I'd rather leave this to experimentation, to tell you the truth. In theory, on the one hand tilting them down when they're so close to the viewers would make them sound a little better and reduce reflections from the opposite wall (I've had to deal with stuff like this in some systems I've helped install), but on the other hand no tilt may slightly improve the balance between the two speakers. The only way to know for sure, despite the fair amount of experience I have, is to try it both ways to find out what sounds better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

You should toe your front left/right speakers towards the main listener, but some manufacturers recommend either pointing them directly at the primary listener's ears or have the tweeters aiming a bit wider and past the listener's ears and not directly at them. You might ask Ascend what they recommend.

They would generally recommend a slight toe-in, according to the manual:
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/support/Web_Owners_Manual.pdf

In practice, I have not found this to be necessary in all cases, and whether I've done it or not depends on the specific situation, as well as experimentation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

The center should be aimed up towards the main listener since it's located below the TV.

It's not usually necessary because this speaker's vertical dispersion is very wide, but it wouldn't hurt and given the apparent dimensions of this room and the angles involved, it may actually make the speaker's high-midrange response a wee bit smoother. Yeah, go ahead and tilt it upward toward ear level--good suggestion.
post #34 of 314
Thread Starter 
I can switch the loveseat and sofa, i actually had them switched originally but the cushions were running a bit flat on the big couch, and the love seat never gets used, plus the long couch along the side makes a good bed type scenario where you just want to lie down long ways and watch whatever without breaking your neck to see the tv.

I could be convinced to switch them again, if need be.
post #35 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

I can switch the loveseat and sofa, i actually had them switched originally but the cushions were running a bit flat on the big couch, and the love seat never gets used, plus the long couch along the side makes a good bed type scenario where you just want to lie down long ways and watch whatever without breaking your neck to see the tv.

I could be convinced to switch them again, if need be.

I'm mainly thinking that it would be easier to determine surround speaker positions than having the love seat where it is currently. Move it back if you want after you're finished.
post #36 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

I can switch the loveseat and sofa, i actually had them switched originally but the cushions were running a bit flat on the big couch, and the love seat never gets used, plus the long couch along the side makes a good bed type scenario where you just want to lie down long ways and watch whatever without breaking your neck to see the tv.

I could be convinced to switch them again, if need be.

In that case, never mind--I was really just wondering out loud why you had fewer seats right in front of the TV. Most every home theater of this basic configuration that I've seen, including my own, has the love seat on the side. Your reasons for doing things differently seem valid to me, though.
post #37 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

Ya i was only wanting to set up the middle of the love seat as the listener, no other seat concerns me, as im the only one that needs or wants or will appreciate this setup.

That sure sounds familiar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

How do you suggest i set up the speakers where the love seat is the only spot thats being accounted for?

Well, you could direct all of the speakers at the central viewing position (at ear level, of course).
post #38 of 314
Thread Starter 


Progress. Just got this from the UPS man. Cant wait till next week
Edited by Axxion - 3/27/13 at 4:08pm
post #39 of 314
Thread Starter 
All 160 pounds worth of boxes filled with speakers will be here wesnesday. Since im thinking of hanging the htm 200's upside down because they have to hang like picture frames, how should they be orientated concerning the tweeters for the surrounds and back surrounds? Tweeters inside (all 4 upside down speakers) or outside or what? Dont they send them in pairs as to have the tweeters mirroring eachother?
post #40 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

All 160 pounds worth of boxes filled with speakers will be here wesnesday.

That's going to feel like a long time. wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

Since im thinking of hanging the htm 200's upside down because they have to hang like picture frames, how should they be orientated concerning the tweeters for the surrounds and back surrounds? Tweeters inside (all 4 upside down speakers) or outside or what? Dont they send them in pairs as to have the tweeters mirroring eachother?

They are indeed supplied in mirror-imaged pairs, with the tweeters on the opposite sides relative to the mounting holes/bolts and the company logo (if you'll be using the grille). I had said the following in an earlier post: "When used as a vertically-oriented surround, the tweeters should be on the forward side of the speaker (i.e. toward the front wall). And when used as a pair of back surrounds in a 7.x system, their tweeters should both be on the inside, toward the center of the room and away from the sides."
post #41 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Cook View Post

I had said the following in an earlier post: "When used as a vertically-oriented surround, the tweeters should be on the forward side of the speaker (i.e. toward the front wall). And when used as a pair of back surrounds in a 7.x system, their tweeters should both be on the inside, toward the center of the room and away from the sides."

Heh, the Ascend Acoustics owner's manual says the exact opposite biggrin.gif:
Quote:
For “HTM-200 SE” series speakers, orient the left/right surround speakers vertically with the tweeter closer to the rear wall. If the speakers are behind the listening position, orient vertically with the tweeters to the outside.

My way seems to be, at least according to what I'm trying to achieve, more consistent with how the manual tells us to set up the front channels, but it may be that Ascend is trying to achieve something different with the surrounds. In your case, it should not make that much of a difference, though. Try it their way initially while I seek clarification on this.
post #42 of 314
Thread Starter 
Haha thats confusing. It probably wont make any difference but it would be nice to know where the tweeters should be.
post #43 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

Haha thats confusing. It probably wont make any difference but it would be nice to know where the tweeters should be.

Just to be clear, I'm fairly certain that the manual is not wrong, but like I said the intention may be different from mine, as I treat my surrounds pretty much just like my fronts--in every way but placement. Many other folks view and use their surround speakers in a different way (especially those who use dipole surrounds, obviously), so there is not necessarily only a single "right" answer. Just to be prudent, however, and to test my own understanding of what is going on with regard to the dispersion of these speakers and such (so that I can be of better help to you and others), I'll do some experiments that I haven't tried in a while, and then I'll send off some very pointed and pertinent technical questions to Ascend because they would know.
post #44 of 314
Thread Starter 
This is very confusing because in the same manual pdf link you provided it says this.

post #45 of 314
Thread Starter 
They say "inside", although that isnt very clear on what that means, i assume though it condradicts whats farther down in the instructions, the part about the tweeters being closer to the rear wall.

On another note, it says in that manual that the surrounds can point at eachother and sound reflection is not a concern, this is good because i the closer i can have these things to the wall the better, i didnt want to have to worry about pointing them down as one will be right next to the doorway and risks getting knocked down. Also you said these have good vertical dispersion, helping this scenario.

I also switched the couches around, long one is in the primary listening zone, short against the wall.

Mcacc did a good job of setting up my old speakers, it sounded much closer to what i want, but still not as good as i know it can be. Hopefully these speakers deliver. I also found awesome sub placement, not too boomy and flubby, just the right amount of tight bass. The only thing im worried about is my coffee table it sits at a height of 18 inches from the floor, dead center of the 340 center mid point of the woofers. Will this be a problem?

Also with the center it says in the manual that i need 18 inches of clearence from the floor for the center channel, that is my exact distance but will it be an issue that its sitting on a glass shelf? Or do i just bring the speaker cabinet out a bit so it hangs off about a quarter inch or so, so no reflections happen?
Edited by Axxion - 3/31/13 at 5:14am
post #46 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

They say "inside", although that isnt very clear on what that means, i assume though it condradicts whats farther down in the instructions, the part about the tweeters being closer to the rear wall.

On another note, it says in that manual that the surrounds can point at eachother and sound reflection is not a concern, this is good because i the closer i can have these things to the wall the better, i didnt want to have to worry about pointing them down as one will be right next to the doorway and risks getting knocked down. Also you said these have good vertical dispersion, helping this scenario.

I also switched the couches around, long one is in the primary listening zone, short against the wall.

Mcacc did a good job of setting up my old speakers, it sounded much closer to what i want, but still not as good as i know it can be. Hopefully these speakers deliver. I also found awesome sub placement, not too boomy and flubby, just the right amount of tight bass. The only thing im worried about is my coffee table it sits at a height of 18 inches from the floor, dead center of the 340 center mid point of the woofers. Will this be a problem?

Also with the center it says in the manual that i need 18 inches of clearence from the floor for the center channel, that is my exact distance but will it be an issue that its sitting on a glass shelf? Or do i just bring the speaker cabinet out a bit so it hangs off about a quarter inch or so, so no reflections happen?

Your coffee table may interfere. You'll have to listen to the speakers with and without it to see if it muffles the direct sound waves. Remember, in a home theater... you usually don't have a coffee table in front of your viewing chairs. smile.gif

As for the center channel, you do want it to hang just a tad off the shelf, so you don't have reflections from it.
post #47 of 314
Thread Starter 
Why does mcacc say the distance on my sub is 9 feet?? All the other speaker distances are correct but the sub is only 3-4 feet from where the mic was set. It did this on a second test as well. The couch is in the way of direct sound from the speaker and maybe its bouncing its test signal off the wall and then off to the mic, but should that matter? Should i move the couch and place the mic so its at the appropriate height so the sub has direct sight of the mic? If i do that then it wont be true to my rooms acoustics as the couch should be in its place and would alter the other speakers.



Yea i know all the free wire looks like crap im gonna fix it when i rewire the place when my ascends get here.
Edited by Axxion - 3/31/13 at 7:52pm
post #48 of 314
The couch is throwing the mic off. You should be able to go into the speaker setup menu and manually input the correct sub distance.
post #49 of 314
Thread Starter 
So i got my speaker cable today, ordered a 100 foot roll and a 50 foot roll of 12 gauge copper wire from monoprice. I just barely ran out so i needed more, i ran to radio shack to get another 25 feet of 12 gauge (smallest increment i could find) and discovered a big difference in wire thickness (the innards of copper is what im referring to, not the plastic) Here are the pics





What do you guys think? One seems to be braided and the other is not. I will use the radioshack cable for my L C R speakers since all of them can be wired up by 25 feet, and that cable appears to be better.

Speakers still set for wednesday delivery. I also bought a hacksaw to modify the height of my coffee table if need be

And i got two 50 pound bags of sand to fill the speaker stands with.
Edited by Axxion - 4/1/13 at 8:36pm
post #50 of 314
Hard to tell thickness with the jacket on. Sometimes the wires are pinched together more tightly. Should strip off a very small portion of the jacket to get a better look.
post #51 of 314
Thread Starter 
One 12 gauge is damn near twice as thick as the other. I thought monoprice had good stuff and radioshack had garbage. Not the case here



post #52 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

So i got my speaker cable today, ordered a 100 foot roll and a 50 foot roll of 12 gauge copper wire from monoprice. I just barely ran out so i needed more, i ran to radio shack to get another 25 feet of 12 gauge (smallest increment i could find) and discovered a big difference in wire thickness (the innards of copper is what im referring to, not the plastic) Here are the pics

What do you guys think? One seems to be braided and the other is not. I will use the radioshack cable for my L C R speakers since all of them can be wired up by 25 feet, and that cable appears to be better.

I think that 12 AWG means 12 AWG no matter what the brand, so something is wrong here....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

One 12 gauge is damn near twice as thick as the other. I thought monoprice had good stuff and radioshack had garbage. Not the case here


Well, most people here swear by Monoprice because their products are generally good enough--as in no human being on Earth could tell the difference in sound quality--and it's very inexpensive. I for one have never considered Radio Shack's cable products to be garbage, but they are usually overpriced for what you get. In this case, at $40 for a 25' roll, their speaker cable had better be good stuff, as that's well over twice what I paid per foot for my 12 AWG speaker cable from Blue Jeans Cable (made in the USA by one of the world's premier cable manufacturers, Belden--not Belkin wink.gif). I don't know whether the Monoprice 12 AWG cable lives up to its claim for conductor size, but I bet that you couldn't tell the difference with your ears anyway.

But still, they shouldn't be making exaggerated claims, regardless. Could you please measure the diameters of the conductors?
post #53 of 314
Thread Starter 
Well actually alot of wire makers lie about what the gauge really is, some even sell 40 feet as 50 feet. Some also claim coated aluminum is pure copper. My monoprice said made in china so.... Its still vastly thicker then my 16 gauge wire thats branded radioshack. Im not too worried about how it will make it sound, im sure its plenty thick but 2 of the stretches im running are about 50 foot each to the back surrounds, and gauge does matter here as you could overload the avr if its too thin for a long run. Im more worried about people getting what they pay for, and whats being advertised. I dont have advanced measuring tools so the best i can do is measure it in MM with a ruler.

The results are 2.0 mm for the monoprice
And 2.9mm for the auvio from radioshack.
Quite a difference. I measured the actual copper and its thinnest point on both cables after twisting it tight by hand.
And yes i paid a premium for the auvio, but i have it now and dont have to worry about shipping. Plus ive seen the ups man about 5 times in the past week, and im sure after he breaks his back delivering my speakers tomorrow hell be sick of me haha

After inspecting the spool the monorpice came on, it says the wire is supposed to be 3.0mm thick, and the jacket 5.4mm thick. The jacket is only about 4mm (just barely) thick and this is something that is not altered easily like the copper innards.
Edited by Axxion - 4/2/13 at 4:34pm
post #54 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

My monoprice said made in china so.... Its still vastly thicker then my 16 gauge wire thats branded radioshack.
The realuts are 2.0 mm for the monoprice
And 2.9mm for the auvio from radioshack..
The gauge is calculated by the weight per foot, not the diameter, unless it's solid. Different winding/brading techniques will make a difference in diameter. Few sellers will risk the fines that misrepresenting the gauge would entail. Too bad there are no fines for misrepresenting how cables work. rolleyes.gif
post #55 of 314
Thread Starter 
Well that may be but if its claiming a precise thickness on the cable on that jacket and doesnt meet that standard, then something isnt right.



That jacket clearly isnt anywhere above 4mm, forget about 5.4mm like the spool says.

post #56 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

The gauge is calculated by the weight per foot, not the diameter, unless it's solid. Different winding/brading techniques will make a difference in diameter. Few sellers will risk the fines that misrepresenting the gauge would entail. Too bad there are no fines for misrepresenting how cables work. rolleyes.gif


WHAT , where did you get that information, AWG has been the standard since 1857 in canada and the usa.

Stranded wire AWG sizesAWG gauges are also used to describe stranded wire. In this case, it describes the total cross-sectional area of the conductor; the gaps between strands are not counted. Using circular strands, these gaps occupy about 10% of the wire area, thus requiring a wire about 5% thicker than equivalent solid wire.

Stranded wires are specified with three numbers, the overall AWG size, the number of strands, and the AWG size of a strand. The number of strands and the AWG of a strand are separated by a slash. For example, a 22 AWG 7/30 stranded wire is a 22 AWG wire made from seven strands of 30 AWG wire
post #57 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

WHAT , where did you get that information, AWG has been the standard since 1857 in canada and the usa.
If you were to weigh a specified length of whatever gauge, be it solid or stranded, no matter how many strands, it would be the same. If you'd rather count the number of strands and measure their diameter to know whether the 12 gauge you paid for is 12 gauge or only 13 by all means do so. I'd strip the insulation off an inch and weigh it.
post #58 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

If you were to weigh a specified length of whatever gauge, be it solid or stranded, no matter how many strands, it would be the same. If you'd rather count the number of strands and measure their diameter to know whether the 12 gauge you paid for is 12 gauge or only 13 by all means do so. I'd strip the insulation off an inch and weigh it.
I use wire strippers on a daily basis, they are well marked as to the gauge of wire. Also I hardly suggest anyone go into a store break open a package cut off a foot ,strip it and weight it. I cant tell wire gauge easily by looking at it. Much easier to use a wire gauge than strip insulation and cut the wire off weight it them glue it all back together .


I use wire strippers on a daily basis, they are well marked as to the gauge of wire. Also I hardly suggest anyone go into a store break open a package cut off a foot ,strip it and weigh it. I cant tell wire gauge easily by looking at it. Much easier to use a wire gauging tool, than strip insulation and cut the wire off weigh it them glue it all back together .
post #59 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

Im not too worried about how it will make it sound, im sure its plenty thick but 2 of the stretches im running are about 50 foot each to the back surrounds, and gauge does matter here as you could overload the avr if its too thin for a long run.

Even 16 AWG would do for only 50 feet. We're nowhere near the point where the AVR would be in danger of running out of voltage for the surrounds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

Im more worried about people getting what they pay for, and whats being advertised. I dont have advanced measuring tools so the best i can do is measure it in MM with a ruler.

That's OK, I'm sure that some people would squish the wires using calipers anyway. wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

The results are 2.0 mm for the monoprice
And 2.9mm for the auvio from radioshack.
Quite a difference. I measured the actual copper and its thinnest point on both cables after twisting it tight by hand.

Actually, 2 mm is about right for 12 AWG, given the simple twisted strands of the Monoprice wires. As for why the other wire is so much thicker, it could be the way that it's braided, or it may be 10 AWG or larger, for all I know. I'm just glad that Monoprice is living up to their claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

And yes i paid a premium for the auvio, but i have it now and dont have to worry about shipping. Plus ive seen the ups man about 5 times in the past week, and im sure after he breaks his back delivering my speakers tomorrow hell be sick of me haha

I guess that explains the "tender loving care" that Brown usually inflicts on my packages, then. wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

After inspecting the spool the monorpice came on, it says the wire is supposed to be 3.0mm thick,

Doesn't it actually say that the cross-sectional area is 3.0 mm squared? That's pretty close to 12 AWG, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

and the jacket 5.4mm thick. The jacket is only about 4mm (just barely) thick and this is something that is not altered easily like the copper innards.

Well, the cable might have changed while the old labels were used in this case. Not to make excuses for inaccuracies, but I'm fairly satisfied with the size of the conductors, and that Monoprice is providing a high-value product. Now, if the conductors were clearly less than 2 mm in diameter, for example, then I'd call them on it for sure.
post #60 of 314
Thread Starter 
I totally messed up on my left and right lol. Im kinda irritated. I measured 6 feet of length, and that was enough to get me from the avr to the wall, 3.5-4 feet in the direction of each left and right speaker, but not enough to go 24 inches up the tower and another 10 inches to the input jacks on the speakers totaling 34 inches. All i had left was 6 feet of 12 gauge. So i cut the 6 feet into two 3 feet strips and spliced them with the left and right cables. The connection is good, i did not want to solder because i do not have flux and i figured the connection would be better if twisted tightly and sealed as good as i could get it with electrical tape instead of impaired where the thick solder would have to be. Should i just buy another roll of cable or am i good as is? Everything is all wired up and ready for speakers.

Also i had to do the same thing with one of my back surrounds, because after using about 30 feet to reach one speaker out of a 50 foot roll, that only left 20 foot for the opposing speaker and i had to splice that one together with some leftover 12 gauge which i did solder using a good amount, but like i said im afraid this will hinder the quality.
Edited by Axxion - 4/2/13 at 10:36pm
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