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720p panels in 2013 not acceptable! - Page 2

post #31 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by V_Pl_a View Post

Maybe you are right that from several feet you hardly distinguish the difference between 1080p and 720p, but it's 2013, not 2003, so the plasma displays with 1024x768 resolution are not acceptable. It's called progress. XGA resolution is regression, not HD. Maybe we should petition TV makers to stop producing rectangular TV's with 1024x768 resolution.

If you are referring to the 50'' size, you may have a point, but as I posted earlier, they have always used that rez format on all 720p 42'' PDP's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post

In the 50 inch category, I would no longer recommend 720p models since they lowered the resolution from 1366 to 1024. Especially since the entry level 1080p versions have come way down in price. The former 1366x768 versions produced a nice picture, but 1024 resolution on a 50 inch screen is just not as sharp.


As far as sharpness is concerned, that's debatable. However, I agree that if it bothers you that much, buy a 1080p, they are certainly cheap enough in 2013.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom669 View Post

LOL, good luck. They SELL. That is why they make them. Do you think they'd make them if they lost money selling them (plasma is not losing money, this is a myth...)

1024x768 is absolutely fine for almost every use given that at least 80% of the content I watch is still in 576p.

I fix TVs as a hobby, and about 80% of the plasmas I fix are 720p, they are the lower end models (mostly LG and Samsung), so I always put them against my 46" 1080p Panasonic, and I can see a difference, but damn, if you're 10 foot back you wouldn't notice it.

To each his own. wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by PM-Performance View Post

all the 32" LCD's I have in the bedrooms are 720P and they look more than fine for HD channels on DTV. I dont think anyone actually watches discs in the rooms, but again would look more than fine IMHO


Since LCD pixels are back lit and their light is not self emitting like plasmas, they don't suffer from SDE. All HDTV static resolution's benefit from Blu-Ray discs due to their high bandwidth capabilities and visual resolution, the measurement of the greatest amount of detail our eyes can actually see.



720p verses 1080p

G44
And the beat goes on



Ian
Edited by mailiang - 3/31/13 at 3:12pm
post #32 of 52
Thread Starter 
New Samsung plasma HDTVs have been released in Europe. Guess what? All of them have only XGA panels. No 1080p plasmas have arrived in Europe yet. frown.gif
post #33 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by V_Pl_a View Post

New Samsung plasma HDTVs have been released in Europe. Guess what? All of them have only XGA panels. No 1080p plasmas have arrived in Europe yet. frown.gif

720p sets to the retail sector are very much like the cheapo Windows laptop in the retail sector. They are easy commodities to sell because of price. Price will always be an issue for most people. I'm not saying this about you per say but the problem with this forum is it's filled with videophiles and it seems as though many people here are either rich, pretentious or both and they tend to give off the impression that unless you're buying a TV of "their" caliber then anything else would be worthless. And people that tend to consume themselves with this forum tend to develop that type of mentality. I originally came here with a below $500 720p mentality because the first place I looked was at Walmart. After spending some time here and learning about TV's I bought a 55" Panasonic GT50 but not everyone can just up their price range like that. Can't speak for other countries but here in the U.S. our economy isn't equipped for everyone to buy the "best" product, many people have to stick to entry level products with entry level prices and to some even $500 for a 50" 1080p flat screen is more than they can afford. Good reason for manufacturers to still create 720p TV's in order to grab the audience that is in the below $500 price range rather than to ignore them.
post #34 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by HLdan View Post

720p sets to the retail sector are very much like the cheapo Windows laptop in the retail sector. They are easy commodities to sell because of price. Price will always be an issue for most people. I'm not saying this about you per say but the problem with this forum is it's filled with videophiles and it seems as though many people here are either rich, pretentious or both and they tend to give off the impression that unless you're buying a TV of "their" caliber then anything else would be worthless. And people that tend to consume themselves with this forum tend to develop that type of mentality. I originally came here with a below $500 720p mentality because the first place I looked was at Walmart. After spending some time here and learning about TV's I bought a 55" Panasonic GT50 but not everyone can just up their price range like that. Can't speak for other countries but here in the U.S. our economy isn't equipped for everyone to buy the "best" product, many people have to stick to entry level products with entry level prices and to some even $500 for a 50" 1080p flat screen is more than they can afford. Good reason for manufacturers to still create 720p TV's in order to grab the audience that is in the below $500 price range rather than to ignore them.


A few years ago I bought an entry level Panny, not because I couldn't afford a higher end model, but because I had worked in the industry and a colleague offered me deal on a set I couldn't ignore. I figured that if I wasn't happy with the TV I could always up grade at some point. I spent some time calibrating it and it performs very well. I am constantly looking at more expensive 1080p alternatives, but until I find something that blows me away that I'm willing to pay for, I'll stick with what I have. Like I posted earlier, to each his own.



Ian
post #35 of 52
Unless you are watching a blue ray or some select on demand programing, 720P is just as good. There is ZERO 1080P live HDTV programming.
post #36 of 52
1080i deinterlaced is essentially the same as 1080p, if the deinterlacer is good. Most modern TVs have excellent deinterlacers.
post #37 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom669 View Post

1080i deinterlaced is essentially the same as 1080p, if the deinterlacer is good. Most modern TVs have excellent deinterlacers.

But is any of the content being broadcast actually in 1920x1080 resolution to begin with, or is it being rescaled from 1280x720? I was under the impression that even if your cable box or the channel itself is broadcasting 1080i, the actual HDTV content itself is still all at 720 resolution. Has this changed over the past few years?
post #38 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by headlesschickens View Post

But is any of the content being broadcast actually in 1920x1080 resolution to begin with, or is it being rescaled from 1280x720? I was under the impression that even if your cable box or the channel itself is broadcasting 1080i, the actual HDTV content itself is still all at 720 resolution. Has this changed over the past few years?

The content has always been the same. There is no scaling except from either the TV, or box top, when necessary.

Current native broadcasting formats:

1080i : 1,920x1,080. Includes CBS, NBC, PBS, and most cable/satellite HD networks.

720p : 1,280x720. Includes all ABC and Fox networks and ESPN HD.

480i: Up to 480 lines. All standard-definition TV broadcasts.




Ian
Edited by mailiang - 4/8/13 at 3:16pm
post #39 of 52
Can't speak for the US, but in the UK, everything the Beeb makes in HD is made in 1080p and then sent down the tubes as 1080i. Previously 1440x1080i but now 1920x1080i since bandwidth was increased. However, given the production value is generally less than that of a commercial film shot specifically for HD distribution, you would be hard pressed to pick the 720p and 1080i streams apart (focus, judder, motion blur, etc.)
post #40 of 52
The only 1080p native broadcast format that I have seen is PPV which is available on DTV and Dish. Some cable TSB's may also be offering it. Both Netflix and Vudu stream up to 1080p. However, due to their data compression schemes, none of these formats can reach the picture quality of most Blu-Rays, regardless of the TV's resolution.



Ian
Edited by mailiang - 4/9/13 at 8:41am
post #41 of 52
Thread Starter 
What do you think in 2014 they will release only 1080p sets considering that 4K is coming?
post #42 of 52
There are no (public) plans to release 4K plasmas. The end of the road has nearly been reached.
post #43 of 52
Thread Starter 
Today I was in TV store and compared latest and greatest TVs side by side. There were also 720p plasma displays on the show. All TVs were showing the same source material. Guess what? These cheapo 720p PDP TV picture quality looked so mediocre even no-name tubes from 90s would be preferred to them by any enthusiast who values quality picture. It's really a shame that such lowly PDP TVs are still being manufactured.
post #44 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by V_Pl_a View Post

Today I was in TV store and compared latest and greatest TVs side by side. There were also 720p plasma displays on the show. All TVs were showing the same source material. Guess what? These cheapo 720p PDP TV picture quality looked so mediocre even no-name tubes from 90s would be preferred to them by any enthusiast who values quality picture. It's really a shame that such lowly PDP TVs are still being manufactured.


They would probably look a lot better if they were set up properly. Chad B, a professional calibrator and highly regarded member of this forum, recently posted a favorable review of the Panasonic X60 series.http://www.avsforum.com/t/1476175/test-report-panasonic-tc-p42x60-budget-plasma/0_50 Besides, nobody is forcing consumers to buy these TV's. There are plenty of 1080p sets to choose from if you're not satisfied with their picture quality.


Ian wink.gif
Edited by mailiang - 8/9/13 at 11:44am
post #45 of 52
Thread Starter 
For me, sub-1080p TV screens don't cut it anymore. Simply put, they aren't that sharp.
mailiang, today we live in a world where small phones have 5-inch Super AMOLED screens with Full HD resolution. Does it feel right for you that self-respecting company, like Samsung, produces big 51-inch screens that have subpar 1024x768 resolution?
post #46 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by V_Pl_a View Post

For me, sub-1080p TV screens don't cut it anymore. Simply put, they aren't that sharp.
mailiang, today we live in a world where small phones have 5-inch Super AMOLED screens with Full HD resolution. Does it feel right for you that self-respecting company, like Samsung, produces big 51-inch screens that have subpar 1024x768 resolution?

They also produce more expensive top rated 1080p TV's. So what? As along, as they cater to everyone's needs, it's fine with me. Besides, despite the lower resolution, (which according to the Image Science Foundation is the least important measurement when it comes to picture quality), the Panny X60 competes with many 1080p LED/LCD's. It's simple, you don't like it, don't buy it. End of story.


Ian
post #47 of 52
I have recently seen the Samsung and LG 4500 models on display in stores, and the pic quality actually looked very good from a local antenna feed. Despite the lowered resolution. Perhaps the video processing has improved since the resolution was lowered from 1368 to 1024. Both models were a very nice basic, budget TV at $449-$499 for the 50 inch. Not bad at all, and obviously adequate for folks on a limited budget.
post #48 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post

I have recently seen the Samsung and LG 4500 models on display in stores, and the pic quality actually looked very good from a local antenna feed. Despite the lowered resolution. Perhaps the video processing has improved since the resolution was lowered from 1368 to 1024. Both models were a very nice basic, budget TV at $449-$499 for the 50 inch. Not bad at all, and obviously adequate for folks on a limited budget.


Over the last 3 years or so Panasonic has continued to improve picture brightness, contrast, and shadow detail on their 720p PDP's. I can only assume that Samsung and LG have also made similar improvements. As Chad B noted, the black levels on the X60 are pretty good for a TV in it's price range and contrast levels rivaled those of flagship models just a few years ago.


Ian
post #49 of 52
My wife and I were both in Best Buy about six weeks ago looking at high end plasma (VT/ZT) which I intend to buy in Q4 this year.

While strolling through the store, we discovered three 50" Panasonic plasmas on the same wall, X60-S60-ST60. From where we were standing (8'-10' away), the X60 actually looked cleaner than the other two. Was this an accurate comparison? No. This was store feed, 480i. The X60 actually has slightly higher light output than the other two plasmas. All were set to store (TORCH) mode where you could not make a rational decision for a purchase.

I have 32" (720p) and 37" (1080p) LCD's in two bedrooms. An older 42" 720p plasma in my office as well as a recent high-end 1080p, professionally calibrated plasma in the living room. The other three TV's were adjusted using Spears & Munsil and my naked eye and ended up a bit brighter than the pro-calibrated plasma. When we have company over to watch College Football or Basketball and most of the TV's are on so no one misses a play, which TV do you think gets the most praise. 720p, 42" plasma in the office. Also, when the 37" 1080p LCD was new, I tried it in the office for several months. Due to where my desk is placed, I was looking at the set on the wall at about a 45 degree angle and the colors, especially blacks, drifted so bad, I decided I couldn't stand it, so moved the 42" plasam back to the office. Off angle viewing restored to extremely good and as I said , most people who do not keep up weekly with the newest in audio and video thank that its the best set in the house.

Unless something changes for 2013, each of the plasma manufacturers will sell more of their inexpensive 720p sets than any single line of their 1080p sets. If they decided to end the production of 720p sets tomorrow, what would these people purchase. Probably an inexpensive LCD set whose performance would not equal that of the lesser (or same) resolution plasma that was no longer available.

As to 4K. I have only seen the Sony (at Best Buy). With Sony's custom content it looks marvelous. With Blu-Ray, it looks about the same as any of the other high-end plasma and LCD sets surrounding it. If there is no visible benefit to 4K, why spend the additional money for it?

David
post #50 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by drfreeman60 View Post

As to 4K. I have only seen the Sony (at Best Buy). With Sony's custom content it looks marvelous. With Blu-Ray, it looks about the same as any of the other high-end plasma and LCD sets surrounding it. If there is no visible benefit to 4K, why spend the additional money for it?

I believe 4K rez will make an impact on larger screen TV's, especially projectors, when 4K source material becomes available.


Ian
post #51 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

They also produce more expensive top rated 1080p TV's. So what? As along, as they cater to everyone's needs, it's fine with me. Besides, despite the lower resolution, (which according to the Image Science Foundation is the least important measurement when it comes to picture quality), the Panny X60 competes with many 1080p LED/LCD's. It's simple, you don't like it, don't buy it. End of story.


Ian
I saw Samsung F4500 plasma TV, which was displaying the same material as the other hi-end TVs on the stand. While other hi-end TVs including LED TV were showing excellent black levels, this low-end model was showing greys instead of blacks. While Plasma TVs are known for their superb blacks, these low-end models proved quite the opposite. Maybe that's why it's better to produce only mid and hi-end 1080 plasma sets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post

I have recently seen the Samsung and LG 4500 models on display in stores, and the pic quality actually looked very good from a local antenna feed. Despite the lowered resolution. Perhaps the video processing has improved since the resolution was lowered from 1368 to 1024. Both models were a very nice basic, budget TV at $449-$499 for the 50 inch. Not bad at all, and obviously adequate for folks on a limited budget.
LG already sells 50" 1080p PDP sets for $600.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drfreeman60 View Post

Unless something changes for 2013, each of the plasma manufacturers will sell more of their inexpensive 720p sets than any single line of their 1080p sets. If they decided to end the production of 720p sets tomorrow, what would these people purchase. Probably an inexpensive LCD set whose performance would not equal that of the lesser (or same) resolution plasma that was no longer available.

David
It's time for manufacturers to stop making low-res PDP sets and drop prices on 1080p sets in order to boost sales. LG already sells 1080p sets for dirt cheap.
post #52 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by V_Pl_a View Post

I saw Samsung F4500 plasma TV, which was displaying the same material as the other hi-end TVs on the stand. While other hi-end TVs including LED TV were showing excellent black levels, this low-end model was showing greys instead of blacks. While Plasma TVs are known for their superb blacks, these low-end models proved quite the opposite. .

If you read Chad's review you would know that the X60 (after properly calibrated using the standard picture controls), performed it's best in the Cinema mode. Besides, his measurements don't lie, and comparing various models that are randomly displayed and set up under poor lighting conditions in a box store, proves nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by V_Pl_a View Post

LG already sells 50" 1080p PDP sets for $600.
It's time for manufacturers to stop making low-res PDP sets and drop prices on 1080p sets in order to boost sales. LG already sells 1080p sets for dirt cheap.


Based on the reviews I've read, the black levels on most LG sets fall short of those offered by Samsung and Panasonic regardless of the resolution format.


Ian
Edited by mailiang - 8/10/13 at 12:20pm
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