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The 'Official' 2013 Denon "E Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 36

post #1051 of 6864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rec head View Post

I am more and more pleased with the XT32. My bass response is much improved. I don't know that I'll bother with adding a 2nd sub.
Make me want to upgrade my 3312. Did you come from MultiXT receiver? May I ask which sub you are using?
Is the XT32 in the X4000 exactly the same as the 4311 and 4520?
Thanks.

It's supposed to be exactly the same.
However, I've seen reports from people who've gotten a 4520 claiming that it "sounds better" than the 4311 or the Onkyo 818, which also has XT32. On the other hand, I have *not* seen any REW graphs which would provide objective evidence for that being the case
post #1052 of 6864
I am using internet radio and my TV (Samsung UNF8000) is reporting a resolution of HDMI-CEC 720x480 / 60i. Is this correct? Why wouldn't it be HD?
post #1053 of 6864
^^
Thanks perhaps the 4520 sounds better due to better amp and other processor used and NOT Audessey XT32?
post #1054 of 6864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

Make me want to upgrade my 3312. Did you come from MultiXT receiver? May I ask which sub you are using?
Is the XT32 in the X4000 exactly the same as the 4311 and 4520?
Thanks.

I came from a Denon 3808 which I think was one of the first with XT. I am using a Golden Ears Forcefield 3 sub. I bought a small one with the intention of getting a 2nd. I all honesty I probably will at some point but I have dialed back the urgency.
post #1055 of 6864
Quote:
Originally Posted by rec head View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

Make me want to upgrade my 3312. Did you come from MultiXT receiver? May I ask which sub you are using?
Is the XT32 in the X4000 exactly the same as the 4311 and 4520?
Thanks.

I came from a Denon 3808 which I think was one of the first with XT. I am using a Golden Ears Forcefield 3 sub. I bought a small one with the intention of getting a 2nd. I all honesty I probably will at some point but I have dialed back the urgency.

I'm having a similar experience with the x4000 as you are. I have a sub that is comparable to a forcefield 5 (hrs 12) and it used to have issues with multieq on my 1612 avr that made me install a highpass filter at 20hz. Since upgrading and using xt32, I have the highpass filter uninstalled and not a single distorted note has left the sub.

Very impressive. I thought i needed a second sub.....after having xt32, I think I just want one now wink.gif
post #1056 of 6864
Thread Starter 
I can report a similar experience, having gone from regular MultEQ (2310) to XT (2113) to XT32 (X4000) in the past year or two. I have a single sub that is maybe 4 feet out from the corner but only a foot or so from the back wall (it's rear ported) and I have always had at least some boominess with certain notes and/or seating locations. Since upgrading to the X4000 and recalibrating it's now velvety smooth cool.gif ... and the cohesion and clarity of the overall system is the best it's ever been.
post #1057 of 6864
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

If digital, the Zone 3 source audio must be PCM 2.0.

Forgive my ignorance, but can you explain what PCM 2.0 is?
post #1058 of 6864
Stereo 2.0.
post #1059 of 6864
Thread Starter 
PCM = pulse code modulation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-code_modulation

It's essentially the fundamental method of converting an analog audio waveform into a digital signal. Visualize it like this:



ALL digital audio is, at its roots, encoded as PCM. It can then be packed into "containers" like Dolby Digital or DTS to compress and save space (sort of like a ZIP file) but, once decoded, all digital audio is PCM, and that's the form it's in when the digital processing occurs in the receiver, and when it is finally sent to the DAC's for conversion back to analog for amplification.

If audio comes into the receiver encoded (e.g. Dolby Digital 5.1) then the receiver must do some additional processing to decode and process it back into the native PCM format. Because of this extra step, encoded digital audio will NOT flow to the other zones. But an incoming stream that is already a basic, stereo 2.0 PCM signal can just go straight to a DAC and be converted to stereo analog for playback in another zone.
post #1060 of 6864
Quote:
Originally Posted by caw789 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

If digital, the Zone 3 source audio must be PCM 2.0.

Forgive my ignorance, but can you explain what PCM 2.0 is?

PCM = digital audio encoded using Pulse Code Modulation; 2.0 = 2 channels of audio (i.e. stereo), with no LFE channel. It's essentially the same kind of digital audio that you get when playing a standard CD. It's not v2 of PCM encoding smile.gif
post #1061 of 6864
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaitlyn2004 View Post

I am using internet radio and my TV (Samsung UNF8000) is reporting a resolution of HDMI-CEC 720x480 / 60i. Is this correct? Why wouldn't it be HD?

Yup. With no video source being fed to the AVR, the OSD resolution is only 480i.
post #1062 of 6864
Quote:
Originally Posted by rec head View Post

I came from a Denon 3808 which I think was one of the first with XT. I am using a Golden Ears Forcefield 3 sub. I bought a small one with the intention of getting a 2nd. I all honesty I probably will at some point but I have dialed back the urgency.
So you notice of a big or so so improvement going from XT to XT32? Is the improvement in just the bass area or all speakers? Thanks.
post #1063 of 6864
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

PCM = pulse code modulation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-code_modulation

It's essentially the fundamental method of converting an analog audio waveform into a digital signal. Visualize it like this:



ALL digital audio is, at its roots, encoded as PCM. It can then be packed into "containers" like Dolby Digital or DTS to compress and save space (sort of like a ZIP file) but, once decoded, all digital audio is PCM, and that's the form it's in when the digital processing occurs in the receiver, and when it is finally sent to the DAC's for conversion back to analog for amplification.

If audio comes into the receiver encoded (e.g. Dolby Digital 5.1) then the receiver must do some additional processing to decode and process it back into the native PCM format. Because of this extra step, encoded digital audio will NOT flow to the other zones. But an incoming stream that is already a basic, stereo 2.0 PCM signal can just go straight to a DAC and be converted to stereo analog for playback in another zone.

I really appreciate the help. I upgraded from the 3808, but never used the extra zones. I bought some optical to analog converters for that receiver, but from what you just wrote, I guess those wont be necessary with the new 4000? I have the Zone 3 out on the deck. If I wanted to listen to Dish there, would that be possible. In the settings menu of the Hopper, it has the option to switch from Dolby/PCM to Only PCM. I tried that, yet the receiver still didn't allow me to select that input for Zone 3 playback. Is this possible to do?
post #1064 of 6864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

So you notice of a big or so so improvement going from XT to XT32? Is the improvement in just the bass area or all speakers? Thanks.

With my Paradigm Studio speakers it was a pretty good increase in sound quality from XT to XT32. The soundstage is unreal, I was watching some 2 channel content on Netflix and my wife didn't believe that our center channel wasn't being utilized.
post #1065 of 6864
Quote:
Originally Posted by caw789 View Post

I really appreciate the help. I upgraded from the 3808, but never used the extra zones. I bought some optical to analog converters for that receiver, but from what you just wrote, I guess those wont be necessary with the new 4000? I have the Zone 3 out on the deck. If I wanted to listen to Dish there, would that be possible. In the settings menu of the Hopper, it has the option to switch from Dolby/PCM to Only PCM. I tried that, yet the receiver still didn't allow me to select that input for Zone 3 playback. Is this possible to do?

The 3808 allows PCM 2.0 to all zones. I did it every day.
post #1066 of 6864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

So you notice of a big or so so improvement going from XT to XT32? Is the improvement in just the bass area or all speakers? Thanks.

I want to say that I noticed a difference in clarity and separation with XT but since it took an hour to change everything over and run Audyssey that I can't say for sure. I will say that it sounds great. The bass I am positive about since that was a problem area. I listened to a track yesterday, I forget what, but the bass on the track was really low and just seemed to come from everywhere. I mean that in the awesome-est way.

What are other's thoughts on wides? So far I have to say that for 2ch music that it just kind of sounds like another set of mains set further apart. It sounds good and I like it. Not sure what I was expecting but I wasn't blown away. I am not done tweaking the positions and I'm keeping an open mind. Plus I have yet to watch a movie all the way through with them.
post #1067 of 6864
I measured my X2000 with a Kill-a-Watt today. It used 64.3 Watts on at idle (no sound playing, zone 2 off), 67.4 W with a cd playing in stereo moderately loud (-25 dB).

In standby, it measured 2.3 W with no HDMI passthrough or network. Interestingly it still measured 2.3 W with HDMI passthrough enabled, but no source passing through, but when the DirecTV box was on, it went up slightly to 4.5 W. When network standby was enabled but no HDMI passthrough it was 4.1 W and when both were enabled it was 4.1 W with no HDMI device on and 6.7 with the DirecTV box on.
post #1068 of 6864
What exactly are Audyssey's "dynamic volume" and "dynamic EQ" options and what do you guys personally use and why?
post #1069 of 6864
^^
There is a dedicated Audessey thread with detail explanation. I give you a general idea:
Dynamic Volume: on to enhance dialog on the center channel for viewing at night time where you don't want to bother your family. I always leave it off in my dedicated theater. I turn it on when watching in my family room system late at night.
DynamicEQ: leave it on all time. This is why you calibrate your system with the auto set up for.
post #1070 of 6864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

^^
There is a dedicated Audessey thread with detail explanation. I give you a general idea:
Dynamic Volume: on to enhance dialog on the center channel for viewing at night time where you don't want to bother your family. I always leave it off in my dedicated theater. I turn it on when watching in my family room system late at night.
DynamicEQ: leave it on all time. This is why you calibrate your system with the auto set up for.
So dynamiceq turns the audyssey on/off?
post #1071 of 6864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

DynamicEQ: leave it on all time. This is why you calibrate your system with the auto set up for.

Not sure you understand what Dynamic EQ is for.
post #1072 of 6864
Hey guys, I'm having problems with my X1000's network connectivity. I used to have a wireless router set as a Wireless Client and another wireless router set as an Access Point, with the AVR-X1000 hooked up to the client. But earlier today I upgraded the firmware in my routers and changed my Wireless Client router into a Wireless Ethernet Bridge. My 360 and PS3 that are hooked up to the router have great internet access, but the AVR-X1000 doesn't seem to detect any network at all (settings diagnostics just show all errors). Any ideas?
post #1073 of 6864
Hi there!

As discussed yesterday I ran some tests (a lot actually!) to compare the sub equalization performed by Audyssey MultEQ XT32 versus Antimode 8033-S. I also measured the LFC impact.
The following is the translation of the original post I wrote in French for another HC forum, so please forgive me if you find a lot of bad wording or grammatical mistakes...


The environment:
- non dedicated non treated room (6m75 x 4m58 x 2m45)
- sub is a SVS PB12-NSD (supposed to be quite flat between 20 et 150Hz) at 80cm from a corner of the room
- this sub has a built in DSP that is used to obtain this flat answer (probably some IIR filters), so there might be phase rotations
- Denon X4000 with d'Audyssey MultEQ XT32
- Antimode 8033-S between the sub exit of the Denon and the input of the Sub
- the mics (ECM8000 for REW and the Audyssey and Antimode mics) are straped to a tripod, at hear height and at the central listenning position onour sofa (2 seats sofa, listenning position is at 3m70 from the front wall, 3m from the rear one)

Map of the room:


Calibration protocol I used:
1) Antimode autocalibration
2) Antimode set to Bypass, then Audyssey calibration with 8 spots (in red in the map)
3) Denon set to all speakers SMALL + 80Hz bass management cut off
4) M-Audio FastTrack USB is plugged to the Right AUX1 input of the Denon with a RCA cable
5) in REW the soundcard has been "calibrated" and the standard ECM8000 calibration file is used
6) the right speaker is OFF (it is a auto-amplified monitor, a M-Audio DSM3)

Measures protocol I used
1) Denon volume set to 0dB > about 75dB measured by Audyssey from the sub
2) REW measures are done with 4 Sweeps from 15 to 150Hz / and a 1/24ème octave smoothing
3) measure with XT32 OFF and Antimode BYPASS
4) measure with XT32 ON and Antimode BYPASS
5) measure with XT32 OFF and Antimode ON
6) to 12) measure with XT32 ON and Antimode BYPASS, and LFC ON from 1 to 7

If you want the REW file just ask.

EDIT (04 July 2013:)
Some little explanations on how to interpret the various graphs posted below:

> SPL : this graph shows how much SPL is measured depending on the frequency that is emitted. Basically what you would like to have is a very regular graph, with no gaps nor peaks. Also please note that you do not want an horizontal line for HC > check for "X curve" on the web for more info.
> Phase : in theory you want a straight line, but I'm still lokking for a real proof that phase "accident" in low frequency is something that can be heard/noticed.
> Waterfall: this graph is the same as SPL, but with a 3rd dimension that shows the "decay" of the SPL in time. So at 0ms the graph is the same as the SPL, then you see how fast the sound pressure decreases. What you would like to have is a very short time of decay, otherwise the bass would be "muddy".




And here are the results:

1) Frequency response of the 3) 4) and 5)


2) No correction (XT32 OFF - Antimode BYPASS)

SPL & Phase


Waterfall



3) With Antimode correction (XT32 OFF - Antimode ON)

SPL & Phase


Waterfall



4) With XT32 correction (XT32 ON - Antimode OFF)

SPL & Phase


Waterfall




My analysis:
No correction
1) the impact of the room is huge: a big dip at 38Hz (-8dB) then two peaks, at 40 and 50Hz (+15dB), then again a dip at 60Hz (but the 80Hz bass management cut off might have some impact on that). In the end between 15 et 60Hz the frequency response is +/- 9dB eek.gif
2) Waterfall analysis: the 40Hz peak is reducing regularly in time > it must be a room mode (mode 0.1.0). Indeed the theoritical calcul of the room modes estimate one at 37.5Hz, thanks to the 4.58m wide of the room > must be this one
3) Waterfall analysis: same thing for the 50Hz peak > room mode (2.0.0) at 51Hz theoritically, thanks to the 6.75m lenght of the room
4) phase isnot regular at all > DSP corrections from the SVS ?
6) one good thing: the SPL at 15Hz is still quite descent

Antimode 8033-S
1) better! The 38Hz dip is a little smaller, and the 40 and 50Hz peaks are gone. In the end the SPL between 15 and 60Hz is between +/-5dB

Audyssey XT32
1) even better!!! No more dip at 38Hz, and the two peaks are still gone. In the end the SPL between 15 and 60Hz is between +/-3dB

General comments
1) when comparing the phase diag of the Antimode and XT32: in both case the phase rotation at 40Hz is gone with the peak.
2) one last measure I would like to perform: adding the Antimode and XT32 correction! I did not have the time to do a full XT32 calibration (was 11pm and our baby was sleeping), but I hope to find some time to do it in the upcoming days.


And last but not least, the impact of the Audyssey LFC:


As you can see the difference between LFC levels is not that big, but the difference with or without LFC is HUGE!

Ok, that's all for now, your turn to analyse and comment my measures and analysis wink.gif
Edited by Morg81 - 7/3/13 at 11:25pm
post #1074 of 6864
Might be helpfull, here are the theoritical room modes of my living room:

post #1075 of 6864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morg81 View Post

2) one last measure I would like to perform: adding the Antimode and XT32 correction! I did not have the time to do a full XT32 calibration (was 11pm and our baby was sleeping), but I hope to find some time to do it in the upcoming days.

I really appreciate all the work you did. I'd REALLY be interested in what you find when using both XT32 and the Antimode together at the same time.
post #1076 of 6864
Morg81
AFAIK, no one has ever posted results of a comparison of an Antimode and Audyssey. You likely are breaking new ground here. If not, you are giving us the updated comparison and it is really appreciated. Thanks!!!
post #1077 of 6864
Thread Starter 
Yes, Morg81, great work. Quite a contribution to the thread, and a testament to the correction power of XT32 that it beats the Antimode.

I suspect you will find that the "combined" response will be even better. Using the Antimode to first knock out that giant 40-50Hz peak will mean that MultEQ doesn't have to waste any of its resources on that problem, and then it will have more power to do fine correction. I suspect you will get to +/-2dB and have an even better waterfall.

I'm not an expert in interpreting these charts but interestingly it looks like the waterfall looks *worse* after the Antimode correction, despite the cleaner freq response. The 40Hz and 50Hz peaks specifically look like the Antimode knocked out the initial reflection well but then there is longer decay.

You might want to post these on the Audyssey master thread as it's interesting stuff. EDIT: looks like you already did! smile.gif

You will get good feedback about ways to improve the measurements from some of the more experienced REW guys. For example, I might think you'd want to raise the crossover higher than 80Hz to see a wider band of the sub response, and probably it will be suggested to do multiple measurements and average them as opposed to a single point.

But, anyway, great work!! smile.gif
Edited by batpig - 7/3/13 at 9:13am
post #1078 of 6864
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by t1337Dude View Post

What exactly are Audyssey's "dynamic volume" and "dynamic EQ" options and what do you guys personally use and why?

Start reading: http://batpigworld.com/wp/?page_id=37

You can skip straight to the Dyn EQ/Vol section in the Audyssey 101/FAQ here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51750#user_G
post #1079 of 6864

I was wondering if some of you can pm me with what would be a good price on a 4000 from a authorized dealer.

 

Thanks, Bill

post #1080 of 6864
Your best bet is to give Craig at AVScience a call for a price you'll very much appeciate ... note also that he's on the west coast ....

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