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The 'Official' 2013 Denon "E Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 5

post #121 of 6871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafa341 View Post

I'm getting ready to pull the trigger thanks to you guys but wanted to get some advise. I have a focal 800v cc, and 2 706v for fronts and two 106 customs for surrounds. I've narrowed down to the pioneer 1522-k or denon 3313 what do u guys think?
Wrong thread to post that question. Both are heavily discounted and on sale at Costco. Costco is not a authorized Denon dealer, if it breaks you just get your money back.
post #122 of 6871
Where should I post I'm new here?
post #123 of 6871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafa341 View Post

Where should I post I'm new here?
The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX13 Model Owner's Thread & FAQ
Official* Pioneer SC-1522 9.2 Network ready AV receiver owners thread

This thread relates to Denon E200, E300, E400, X1000, X2000, X3000, X4000 AVR's. smile.gif
post #124 of 6871
What's the difference between the X4000 and the 4520? They seem very similar.
post #125 of 6871
i wonder how much will be the street price for the X4000?
post #126 of 6871
Quote:
Originally Posted by 04rex View Post

What's the difference between the X4000 and the 4520? They seem very similar.
I have product comparison between a 3313, x4000, and 4520 from post #109. The X4000 does have a lot more in common with the 4520 then the previous 3313. The 4520 has three DSP's, vs two in the x4000. The 4520 has 8 analog inputs, where as the X4000 doesn't. The main difference is 7 amp vs 9 amp power output, and that surround speakers can be set to any zone with the 4520.
Edited by JohnAV - 5/1/13 at 12:31pm
post #127 of 6871
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 04rex View Post

What's the difference between the X4000 and the 4520? They seem very similar.

See this post from earlier in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1465528/the-official-2013-denon-e-series-x-series-avr-model-owners-thread-faq/30#post_23248408

I see I will have to add this comparison to the FAQ in the first post....

Quoting:
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ray587 View Post

So the X4000 is now just a 4520 with a little less power and a lot lower price tag. Let's just hope the Denon quality is still there. Hard to justify the extra $1300.00 for a 4520 now.

There are still reasons to go for the "flagship" unit. First off, the price difference at msrp is only $1,200, not $1,300.... but more importantly, the "street price" difference is smaller, assuming the X4000 is initially selling for around $1k it's more like $700-800.

The 4520 also has superior build quality. It's larger, heavier, is built in Japan vs. China, has fancier binding posts and has a more robust amp section certified to be capable of driving 4ohm speakers. Some people will pay a premium for that stuff. Plus of course it has 9 amps built in and can expand to 11 channels, whereas the X4000 has 7 amps built in and can only expand to 9.

Some other differences:

- 4520 has 4 zones instead of 3. While the HDMI matrix output on the 3313/X4000 is tied to Zone 2, the 4520 has it on a dedicated Zone 4 meaning you can still do two separate stereo music zones (2 and 3)
- 4520 has dual component video outputs which can be assigned to Zone 2 and Zone 3, so you could theoretically distribute HD video to all 4 zones vs. only 2 on the X4000.
- 4520 has a built in 4-port ethernet hub
- 4520 has more legacy connectivity -- an extra component video input, an extra RCA analog input, and 7.1 multich analog inputs
- 4520 has an incredibly flexible array of Amp Assign options including a "custom" free assign mode, whereas the X4000 will likely just have the standard 2 assignable amps for Zone 2/3, bi-amp, etc.

Now, I agree with you that for MOST people the 4520 is overkill and the X4000 is going to represent an awesome value in comparison, but the 4520 is a higher end unit and does offer additional build, power and features.
post #128 of 6871
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

I have product comparison between a 3313, x4000, and 4520 from post #109. The X4000 doesn have a lot more in common with the 4520 then the previous 3313. The 4520 has three DSP's, vs two in the x4000. The 4520 has 8 analog inputs, where as the X4000 doesn't. The main difference is 7 amp vs 9 amp power output, and that surround speakers can be set to any zone with the 4520.

Thanks for the info. I will read your comparison. But essentially, besides the inputs (if you dont need them) and the DSP and the amp section (again if you dont need that) there isnt much of a difference at all. What is the big deal with having 3 DSP vs just 2? What's the advantage?
post #129 of 6871
Thread Starter 
Read my post above yours. The major differences are:

- 9 amps vs. 7 built in
- the ability to run 11 channels vs. just 9 (with an extra amp)
- the superior build quality (larger, heavier, beefier amps, made in Japan vs. China)
- 4 zones vs. 3
- increased input/output flexibility

Most people will be just fine with the X4000.
post #130 of 6871
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Read my post above yours. The major differences are:

- 9 amps vs. 7 built in
- the ability to run 11 channels vs. just 9 (with an extra amp)
- the superior build quality (larger, heavier, beefier amps, made in Japan vs. China)
- 4 zones vs. 3
- increased input/output flexibility

Most people will be just fine with the X4000.

Sorry, I was posting as you posted. Good info.

But in terms of the DSP, one having 3 and the other 2, what does that do exactly?
post #131 of 6871
Quote:
Originally Posted by 04rex View Post

Sorry, I was posting as you posted. Good info.

But in terms of the DSP, one having 3 and the other 2, what does that do exactly?
Would guess that X4000 with 9.2 ch processing doesn't need a third DSP compared to 11.2 ch processing AVR's AVR-4311 and AVR-4520 which utilize 3 DSP's?
post #132 of 6871
I'm gonna put on hold my purchase waiting for test comparisons between the X4000 and the 4520. I can't run even a 9.2 setup in my apt but I want the 4520. Just that it's really hard to justify more money on some extra features that I'm not going to use. To me the only important thing is SQ, so if the 4520 is superior than the X4000 in SQ then there is no doubt than the 4520 is the one for me.
post #133 of 6871
To first approximation the quality of sound should be identical, since both have Audyssey X32.
Don't forget, though, that the quality of your speakers and the room's acoustics have the largest effect on the quality of what you hear.
post #134 of 6871
Thread Starter 
Enrico, you may be waiting a long time. Who knows when you will hear a reliable direct comparison between these two models? There isn't much logical reason to expect a major sound quality difference. If you aren't going to go 9 channels or beyond, I wouldn't even hesitate. The X4000 is a really great value for someone who doesn't need the extras of the 4520.
post #135 of 6871
Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post

I'm gonna put on hold my purchase waiting for test comparisons between the X4000 and the 4520. I can't run even a 9.2 setup in my apt but I want the 4520. Just that it's really hard to justify more money on some extra features that I'm not going to use. To me the only important thing is SQ, so if the 4520 is superior than the X4000 in SQ then there is no doubt than the 4520 is the one for me.
Looking at your setup, as you are using a external 3 ch amp also and powered subwoofer in a 11' x 14' room. Seems to me your not interested in bigger amps with the 4520, but just want the superior room equalization (MultiEQ XT32 and SubEQ HT). In that regard depends on what you want to spend? IMHO you be fine either way. smile.gif

BTW nice speakers and setup for your amount of space.
post #136 of 6871
Denon AVR-X3000; AVR-X4000 IN-Command Receivers Preview - Audioholics - Tom Andry - May 01, 2013
Quote:
Conclusion
With receivers this powerful, it is nearly impossible to list all their features in such a short article (lucky for you that we have a full review of the AVR-X4000 in the works). The takeaway you might get from this is that the new IN-Command receivers are both feature packed and flexible. The difference form the X2000 to the X3000, other than $300 in price and a few watts, is that the AVR-X3000 will be nearly everything you'll need to power your home theater. The AVR-X4000 will will do all that plus power either your bedroom or secondary system, and route audio signals to a third area. When you are at this level of buying, it pays to make a list of what you need. If these receivers can't do it, it likely can't be done. At least, not at these price points.
post #137 of 6871
Thread Starter 
Just noticed now reading that article that there is a significant change from the 2313 to the X3000, namely the 2nd HDMI output has changed from a mirrored output to an independent Zone 2 output. Neat!
post #138 of 6871
After read the X4000 owners manual I decided to keep my mind focused on the 4520. Why? Well I just realized that the X4000 is not 4ohms rated, OK I know I'm driving 8ohms speakers with an external amp, but that's gonna change in a few months because I'm in the process to upgrade my speakers as well with either Sallk Song Towers with RAAL (4ohms) or Ascend Acoustic Sierra Towers with RAAL (4, 6 or 8ohms). At this point I don't want restrictions on my new AVR so I can drive either 4, 6 or 8ohms speakers without external amps.
post #139 of 6871
I'm just lmao here, as usual, I'm not rewarded for waiting:

My 4311 can do digital inputs to the zones, 11 channels, but lacks Neo X, which I like.

The 4520 can do 11 channels, Neo X, but cannot take digital inputs to the zones.

The x4000 can take digital to the zones, does Neo X, but cannot do 11 channels.

The completed "grab your ankles" triangle, if you will.

But the 4000 looks like a huge value for those who do not need 11 channels, so have fun, people.

James
post #140 of 6871
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

But the 4000 looks like a huge value for those who do not need 11 channels, so have fun, people.

James

I'm more than happy with my Onkyo TX-NR818, but the X4000 seems to address virtually every complaint I have with the Onkyo. Gapless FLAC streaming, analog sources in zone 2, dual independant HDMI outputs, Airplay, 12V triggers, variable pre-amp outs for zones, etc. I know the street price will be higher than a comparable Onkyo, but at least Denon seems to provide the features I'm looking for.
post #141 of 6871
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I'm just lmao here, as usual, I'm not rewarded for waiting:

My 4311 can do digital inputs to the zones, 11 channels, but lacks Neo X, which I like.
The 4520 can do 11 channels, Neo X, but cannot take digital inputs to the zones.
The x4000 can take digital to the zones, does Neo X, but cannot do 11 channels

The completed "grab your ankles" triangle, if you will.

But the 4000 looks like a huge value for those who do not need 11 channels, so have fun, people.

James
Interesting product comparison when you look at it that way. (Digital to Analog Conversion Multi Zone Outputs vs 11.2 capability)

Leave it to Denon to tantalize you with something better but not having all the features your hoping against their pricing tiers. biggrin.gif

Last year we were discussing how Onkyo had their reasonable priced TX-NR818 incorporate Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 but without SubEQ though. The AVR-3313CI was still stuck with MultiEQ XT. So this year you have Denon finally add MultiEQ XT32 along with SubEQ built in to the new AVR-X4000, allowing one to setup / calibrate two subs independently. It will be interesting to see how the Onkyo TX-NR828 fares in this area?
Edited by JohnAV - 5/2/13 at 12:04pm
post #142 of 6871
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I'm just lmao here, as usual, I'm not rewarded for waiting:

My 4311 can do digital inputs to the zones, 11 channels, but lacks Neo X, which I like.

The 4520 can do 11 channels, Neo X, but cannot take digital inputs to the zones.

The x4000 can take digital to the zones, does Neo X, but cannot do 11 channels.

The completed "grab your ankles" triangle, if you will.

But the 4000 looks like a huge value for those who do not need 11 channels, so have fun, people.

James


Poor James! tongue.gif

If it's any consolation, the X4000 allows you to connect all 11 speaker channels, you just can only run 9 of them simultaneously. So if you are willing to have 2 of your 11 speakers silent (depending on the content) it could still be a contender. Somehow I feel that you won't be happy with that though wink.gif guess you just have to wait for the 4520 replacement....
post #143 of 6871
Thread Starter 
I'm starting to browse the manuals of the X Series and some initial things that I'm noticing (mostly focusing on multizone for now):

1. A minor thing for most, but Denon has drastically reduced the PDF file sizes! For example, the 1713 manual was 24 MB, whereas the X1000 manual is only 7.5 MB. A nice bonus for someone like me who stores a whole bunch of Denon manual PDF's on their Dropbox account!

2. Looking at the X2000 manual, I can't find any mention of the variable/fixed volume limitation when using the Zone 2 pre-outs. The 2113CI only allowed fixed volume output through the Zone 2 pre-outs, meaning volume control had to be provided externally when using an amp for Zone 2. Even the X1000 (which ONLY has the option of Zone 2 via external amp) seems to indicate that you can adjust volume internally for Zone 2 pre-outs.

3. As before, the X3000/X4000 allow tone control of Zone 2 (and 3) but the X3000 allows a +/- 10dB range, whereas the X4000 allows a +/- 14dB range for tone adjustment. Not sure if this difference existed for the 2313 vs. 3313 (too lazy to look right now).

4. In the X1000 and X2000 manuals, in the "Playback in ZONE2" section, they clearly specify the same old source limitation for Zone2 playback with this note: "In ZONE2, you can select iPod/USB, TUNER, NETWORK or an input source with an analog audio input connector." However, in both the X3000 and X4000 manuals this note is missing completely, indicating that you can definitely play ANY digital source to Zone 2, as long as the input is 2.0 PCM.

5. Piggybacking on the above, there appears to be a specific setting to allow this called "HDMI Audio" in the Zone2/3 Setup menu:



This appears to be a true "stereo downmix" setting for the HDMI audio signal allowing playback to Zone 2. A side benefit of this is that it appears to resolve the conflict when playing the same HDMI source in Main Zone and Zone2. Previously, you ran into the HDMI handshake conflict where the main zone could handle a multichannel signal but the Zone 2 TV connected via HDMI couldn't. Now, by allowing the receiver to downmix the HDMI audio to PCM for the HDMI Zone 2 output, it appears you can play back full multich audio in Main Zone while doing a stereo downmix for the Zone 2 TV. EDIT: The HDMI AUDIO setting doesn't actually do an internal downmix; rather, it forces the source device to do the downmix by broadcasting an EDID request for 2.0 PCM to the source itself. So if you play the same source in Main Zone and Zone 2/3, you will be limited by the "lowest common denominator" rule and get 2.0 PCM input for all zones. But at least you don't need to run parallel analog cables anymore!!

All of this looks like some major advances in multizone functionality.
Edited by batpig - 5/6/13 at 12:48pm
post #144 of 6871
I was looking at the X4000's inclusion of 11 channel binding posts and wondering if Denon was going to offer up a paid firmware upgrade to full 11.2 capability later on -- UNTIL I read about the omission of a 3rd DSP. frown.gif An opportunity missed by Denon. Seems the X4000 would be perfect for a combo 9.2 setup using an external amp. Haven't looked in the OM for Free Assign but it looks like there are four choices ( Front, Wide, Height, and Surround Back ) for setting which speaker pair will run on an external amp.
post #145 of 6871
No reason to upgrade the X4000 when the 4520CI already is 11.2 capable and no FREE ASSIGN on the X4000.
post #146 of 6871
Thread Starter 
There was a question posted (I believe in the xx13 thread) about the fact that the X4000 had TWO pairs of speaker posts labeled "assignable", both Front Wide L/R and the standards S.Back L/R. Reading up some more in the manual, it appears that they serve different functions depending on the Amp Assign configuration:

- The Surround Back L/R posts are used either when Amp Assign is set to power Zone 2/3 speakers, or when Amp Assign is set to 5.1Ch BI-AMP.
- The Front Wide posts are used when Amp Assign is set to 7.1ch/2ch mode, meaning that you can still run a regular 7.1 setup and have it switch automatically to a secondary pair of 2ch speakers when you use Stereo/Direct mode for 2ch playback.
post #147 of 6871
For those of you who cannot wait for an "authorized" reseller to have these new "X" models in stock (perhaps end of the month?), Denon should have them available within the next 1-2 weeks for direct purchase.
post #148 of 6871
Denon AVR-X1000 and AVR-X2000 Ultra HD IN-Command Receivers Preview - Audioholics - Tom Andry - May 2
Quote:
Conclusion
Is $200 worth two additional channels of amplification, 4k upconversion, a component video input, and extra HDMI input, and a few other odds and ends? We think for many consumers it will be. If you have no need of seven channels or video upconversion, you can save yourself some money with the AVR-X1000. But if you have some legacy gear, sources with questionably video quality (like cable boxes), or just want to future-proof your system a bit, the $700 will well be worth it for the advanced features of the AVR-X2000. Regardless of which you choose, you'll get networking, AirPlay, Audyssey MultEQ XT, discrete amplification, and more. Not enough you say? Then the Denon AVR-X3000 or X-4000 receivers might be your cup of tea. Buyer's remorse could well be a thing of the past.
post #149 of 6871
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

Interesting product comparison when you look at it that way. (Digital to Analog Conversion Multi Zone Outputs vs 11.2 capability)

Leave it to Denon to tantalize you with something better but not having all the features your hoping against their pricing tiers. biggrin.gif

Last year we were discussing how Onkyo had their reasonable priced TX-NR818 incorporate Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 but without SubEQ though. The AVR-3313CI was still stuck with MultiEQ XT. So this year you have Denon finally add MultiEQ XT32 along with SubEQ built in to the new AVR-X4000, allowing one to setup / calibrate two subs independently. It will be interesting to see how the Onkyo TX-NR828 fares in this area?

It really is funny. You knew they'd hamstring the 4000 in ways to avoid cannibalizing 4520 sales, it's too bad they just didn't decide to leave it "build quality", sophisticated speaker assignment, DACs, etc. You know, the stuff that really doesn't matter. tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

Still, the 4000 looks like a great machine for the $ and I'm sure it will provide most with all they could ever ask for.

Have a great weekend, all.

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 5/3/13 at 7:31am
post #150 of 6871
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I'm starting to browse the manuals of the X Series and some initial things that I'm noticing (mostly focusing on multizone for now):

1. A minor thing for most, but Denon has drastically reduced the PDF file sizes! For example, the 1713 manual was 24 MB, whereas the X1000 manual is only 7.5 MB. A nice bonus for someone like me who stores a whole bunch of Denon manual PDF's on their Dropbox account!

2. Looking at the X2000 manual, I can't find any mention of the variable/fixed volume limitation when using the Zone 2 pre-outs. The 2113CI only allowed fixed volume output through the Zone 2 pre-outs, meaning volume control had to be provided externally when using an amp for Zone 2. Even the X1000 (which ONLY has the option of Zone 2 via external amp) seems to indicate that you can adjust volume internally for Zone 2 pre-outs.

3. As before, the X3000/X4000 allow tone control of Zone 2 (and 3) but the X3000 allows a +/- 10dB range, whereas the X4000 allows a +/- 14dB range for tone adjustment. Not sure if this difference existed for the 2313 vs. 3313 (too lazy to look right now).

4. In the X1000 and X2000 manuals, in the "Playback in ZONE2" section, they clearly specify the same old source limitation for Zone2 playback with this note: "In ZONE2, you can select iPod/USB, TUNER, NETWORK or an input source with an analog audio input connector." However, in both the X3000 and X4000 manuals this note is missing completely, indicating that you can definitely play ANY digital source (not just 2.0 PCM from optical/coax) to Zone 2!

5. Piggybacking on the above, there appears to be a specific setting to allow this called "HDMI Audio" in the Zone2/3 Setup menu:



This appears to be a true "stereo downmix" setting for the HDMI audio signal allowing playback to Zone 2. A side benefit of this is that it appears to resolve the conflict when playing the same HDMI source in Main Zone and Zone2. Previously, you ran into the HDMI handshake conflict where the main zone could handle a multichannel signal but the Zone 2 TV connected via HDMI couldn't. Now, by allowing the receiver to downmix the HDMI audio to PCM for the HDMI Zone 2 output, it appears you can play back full multich audio in Main Zone while doing a stereo downmix for the Zone 2 TV. This seems to be confirmed in the "troubleshooting" section on HDMI ZONE2:




All of this looks like some major advances in multizone functionality.


Yep, all stuff folks like me have been clamoring for over the last couple years and have been told (even a couple weeks ago) that it would require big $$$'s. Guess we now know how to regard that "knowledge". rolleyes.gif

The idea that you can send an HDMI to two zones without monkeying around dragging it down to stereo (which can be impossible with many devices) and incorporating an SPDIF is fantastic. I can run a movie outside my home while it plays inside on the Kuro off one interconnect...beautiful. Let's see what happens with those zone 2 audio delays now...

well, maybe next year anyway, as the 4000 is lacking the 11 channel capability I mandate. frown.gif

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 5/3/13 at 7:34am
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