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The 'Official' 2013 Denon "E Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 50

post #1471 of 6870
Thread Starter 
Quote:
I'll try changing the others to small and re-doing the Audyssey and see if that boosts the Sub output. BTW, Audyssey set the Sub to -3.0.

That won't change a thing. Audyssey auto setup ignores all settings, the point of calibrating is to check what your system is capable of. If you set your speakers to small or large before Audyssey, it will just ignore that and go through the auto setup.

Further, each speaker is calibrated *independently* from the others. Each speaker is set to a level that has it outputting the correct volume (75dB with the standard test tones) and gets its own EQ filter, so the other speakers you have will not impact what happens to the sub.

Since you got a -3.0dB for the sub then your system is fine and running within spec, you should just start enjoying it. Ensure all speakers are set to small (again you do this AFTER calibration not before) so bass gets routed to the sub.
post #1472 of 6870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

Thanks for the info Batpig. Makes me feel better knowing this isn't about to explode. For some reason it didn't make that sound on my Marantz 6007 - a 7.2 which also had the option of assigning width or height channels. Perhaps that has something to do with you not being able to actually make the Marantz 9.2 with the use of an external amp? On that note, do you have any recommendations for what type of external stereo amp would match the X - 4000? would I be looking for one at 125 watts per channel at 8 ohms to match this? or would that be over powered as this is 125 wpc @ 8ohms w/ only 2 channels driven, and is probably actually around 80 wpc in reality with all channels driven?

People always seems to bring up how annoying the relays are. I always think it sounds cool.

For an external amp is think this is a great way to save a few bucks by buying used. A good well cared for used amp is a fine investment. You don't need any fancy features just clean amplification. I would have saved my 3808 for this if there was an easy way to power it up.
post #1473 of 6870
Quote:
Originally Posted by faston View Post

I did the Audyssey setup last night and while this time I could hear the sub (unlike the manual Setup where it was completely silent) it was as you say very low. Much lower than the woop-woop from the other speakers. After I did that I watched some tv and there was a good amount of bass, mostly from the other speakers I think. But I did get down and put my ear to the sub and there was some bass coming out. Not sure if it was significant or just adding a little bit to the other speakers. I'll try changing the others to small and re-doing the Audyssey and see if that boosts the Sub output. BTW, Audyssey set the Sub to -3.0.

Also, as suggested earlier, I hooked my 889 up to the sub and ran the speaker tone test. The others were silent of course since they weren't hooked up but when it came to the sub, the sub had a very good unmistakeable level of sound.
I tried that last night but strangely when I turned the receiver off with the power button on the unit itself, it didn't go completely off. Said something like Zone one off' or something like that. The display dimmed, but didn't go off. LED above the power button stayed green and the sequence for microprocessor reset didn't do anything. I looked to see if I somehow had told the receiver that I have Zone 2 speakers (I don't) but couldn't find anything. When I turn it off via the remote, it does go right off and the red led lights up. I had to stop my fiddling to accommodate tv viewing for the night so that's as far as I got. Tonight I'll see if I can do the microprocessor reset after turning it off via the remote.

Thanks all!!

If you can isolate (hear) the sub then it is not set up properly. When you are sitting down watching tv you shouldn't here it separately. It is there to enhance your other speakers. It sounds like Audyssey set up everything properly. You should set your speakers to small after running the auto-setup.
post #1474 of 6870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

Thanks for the info Batpig. Makes me feel better knowing this isn't about to explode. For some reason it didn't make that sound on my Marantz 6007 - a 7.2 which also had the option of assigning width or height channels. Perhaps that has something to do with you not being able to actually make the Marantz 9.2 with the use of an external amp? On that note, do you have any recommendations for what type of external stereo amp would match the X - 4000? would I be looking for one at 125 watts per channel at 8 ohms to match this? or would that be over powered as this is 125 wpc @ 8ohms w/ only 2 channels driven, and is probably actually around 80 wpc in reality with all channels driven?

The Emotiva UPA-200 amp is really nice. It's 125 watts/channel @ 8ohm for $299 shipped.
post #1475 of 6870
Quote:
Originally Posted by faston View Post

Hi all,

I just purchased an AVR-E400 to replace my AVR-889.

After hooking it up, I was checking the speakers using the manual level mode (haven't run Audyssey yet) and the level of the sub was so low I couldn't hear the 'tone'. I had to turn it up to +12 on the receiver just to hear a faint rumble.

Hi faston, did you set the master volume to your normal listening level or to "0" before doing manual speaker level adjustment?

I did a quick manual level mode and notice the same when first playing with the receiver. Basically I set my master volume to "0" and adjusted the sub and speakers using SPL meter to 75dB
post #1476 of 6870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Snigggles View Post

I've noticed it also. Louder than on my previous Denon.

Hi Mr. Sniggles, same here.

But not annoying, at least I know something is changing especially sound mode since I don't see the pretty blue HD light any more.
post #1477 of 6870
Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post

The Emotiva UPA-200 amp is really nice. It's 125 watts/channel @ 8ohm for $299 shipped.

Yes I've looked at those. I'm going to keep my eye open for a used one. Again though, the denon is 125 watts at 8 ohms with 2 channels driven, with 7 channels ( which is be using with 9.1 ). I'm sure that number would drop significantly. I think I might be able to get away with 75 watts per channel with the stwro amp to match the ACTUAL output of the denon with all channels driven. At least that's my reasoning - not sure if that's flawed logic or not.
post #1478 of 6870
Thread Starter 
The goal shouldn't necessarily be to "match" the Denon's internal amps. Offloading two channels will increase the power available to the other channels that are powered internally, so you free up headroom. Also, as you note, an external amp rated at 125 w/ch like the Emo is a "true" rating, whereas the Denon's internal amps (despite the on paper spec) aren't going to be as powerful, especially when driving multiple channels. And also the different channels have different power requirements, the front three LCR speakers need by far the most power as most of the content goes there.

There are really two ways to approach it:

- the typical approach is to get a beefier amp for the front channels, since they are the most "power hungry" channels. That leaves the Denon's internal amps to power the surrounds and heights/wides, which don't get as much action.

- the alternate approach, if you have relatively easy speakers to drive and the Denon's internal amps do just fine, is to get a lighter weight (cheaper) amp just for two extra channels like the heights, which don't require much power.
post #1479 of 6870
Does this unit still mute the main zone while turning off/on another zone?
I have a 3313 and it does do this.
Thanks

Huh? No Denon receiver should do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Huh? No Denon receiver should do that.


Help then. If my main zone is listening to music or watching TV and I use my Denon remote or ipad to tuen on zone 2. My main zone will turn off for a quick sec you can here contactors clicking in the rcvr. Zone 2 will turn on and the main zone will continue playing what ever it was playing music or TV etc.......
post #1480 of 6870
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowtye8 View Post

Does this unit still mute the main zone while turning off/on another zone?
I have a 3313 and it does do this.
Thanks

Huh? No Denon receiver should do that.
Help then. If my main zone is listening to music or watching TV and I use my Denon remote or ipad to tuen on zone 2. My main zone will turn off for a quick sec you can here contactors clicking in the rcvr. Zone 2 will turn on and the main zone will continue playing what ever it was playing music or TV etc.......
That is what happens on mine too. I'm guessing they all do it. It annoys me only because it seems like a stupid problem that shouldn't have made it through the design stage.
post #1481 of 6870
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

The goal shouldn't necessarily be to "match" the Denon's internal amps. Offloading two channels will increase the power available to the other channels that are powered internally, so you free up headroom. Also, as you note, an external amp rated at 125 w/ch like the Emo is a "true" rating, whereas the Denon's internal amps (despite the on paper spec) aren't going to be as powerful, especially when driving multiple channels. And also the different channels have different power requirements, the front three LCR speakers need by far the most power as most of the content goes there.

There are really two ways to approach it:

- the typical approach is to get a beefier amp for the front channels, since they are the most "power hungry" channels. That leaves the Denon's internal amps to power the surrounds and heights/wides, which don't get as much action.

- the alternate approach, if you have relatively easy speakers to drive and the Denon's internal amps do just fine, is to get a lighter weight (cheaper) amp just for two extra channels like the heights, which don't require much power.

Interesting! I had never thought about using the external amp to drive the fronts and didn't know it could be assigned like that. I always assumed the external amp could only be used to bi wire the fronts or add an extra set of speakers. Good info. That being said, my PSB's are relatively easy to drive, and I can already turn them up to evictionable / hearing damaging levels without distortion, so option number two sounds Like the best bet. In addition as in 3 years time I will probably upgrade to an actual 9.2, no point in dropping big money on a beefy amp.

With regards to the heights being light duty in terms of power needs, would the same hold true for the wides? I'm thinking a 75 wpc would do the trick nicely if this were the case. Thanks again for the info!
Edited by Sean Spamilton - 7/26/13 at 8:55pm
post #1482 of 6870
Quote:
Originally Posted by rec head View Post


People always seems to bring up how annoying the relays are. I always think it sounds cool.

 

 

Part of the "annoyance" was that I wasn't used to hearing it. As I mentioned, I've pretty much gotten used to it, and after reading why it happens and the advantages over previous ways of switching, it's really not a big deal. The x4000 is such a great receiver that little things aren't really that important. And the new Audyssey has made a very significant improvement in my 7.1 setup.

post #1483 of 6870
Hey guys, since the x4000 let's digital audio be played in zone 2 speakers, it looks like I may consider upgrading from my 3312. One question I have now is does it let you send hdmi source to zone 2 video out over composite (not using the hdmi zone 2) without the use of a second composite input from the source?

Also the 3312 had some bench test articles published about power etc. anything like that yet for the x4000
post #1484 of 6870
Thread Starter 
No receiver will "down convert" HDMI video inputs for non HDMI output.
post #1485 of 6870
I have a new X4000 and was wondering/had some questions:

Anyone know the IR code for toggling the HDMI Audio Out? My old Onkyo AVR (RIP-POS) had this and I used it a lot with two TVs and random headphone use.

When I set the Power On Level under Audio/Volume to Mute it’s not powering on with Mute set. It powers on with the audio level at 0 and Mute is off.

My universal remote (Pronto Pro 7000) had a command for toggling the Surround mode on my old Denon and it works on the X4000 but once used I can’t get the Sound mode back to default. With one of my TiVos as the source it would show both the Sound and Signal as “Dolby Digital”. Once I use the Surround mode button to toggle trough Matrix and Virtual and some others it then after always says one of those. Is there no default or a no Sound Mode setting? Also, where the heck is this setting on the X4000, its remote or setup menu? I’m getting old… can’t find anything.

My subs make an audible pop whenever they come on. To help deal with this I lowered the volume on the subs and let the old AVR (also with Audyssey) raise the signal to them during calibration. This way the subs were much less likely if at all to turn on and off throughout the evening. The Audyssey setup in the X4000 stops and says the volume on the subs is too low to calibrate. So now when I watch a program with quite parts the subs are constantly turning on and off. Anyone know a better way (other than replacement) to deal with this? It’s funning, after the calibration it lowered one by 6dB and the other by 7dB. ??? Will it totally mess up the Audyssey calibration if I manually calibrate the subs after the fact? Can that even be done or will Audyssey be disabled once you make manual level changes to the speaker? The thought would be to us a decibel meter to see where it’s at now and lower the volume on the sub and raise it on the AVR.

Just found that the Denon discrete On and Off commands do work but the discrete On turns on all Zones, whereas the Power toggle just toggles the Main Zone On/Off and there is a Power toggle for each of the three Zones.

The first time I ran the Audyssey setup there was a little mic icon for each location. It's now gone. ???
Edited by Tanquen - 7/27/13 at 3:23pm
post #1486 of 6870
If the audio level is 0 and you're using the mfr default "absolute" volume scale of 0-99, then 0 would be mute. confused.gif

Audyssey doesn't set the speaker/sub levels (rather the AVR does this) so feel free to adjust them to suit your preference as doing so will not impact the Audyssey EQ.
post #1487 of 6870
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowtye8 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Huh? No Denon receiver should do that.


Help then. If my main zone is listening to music or watching TV and I use my Denon remote or ipad to tuen on zone 2. My main zone will turn off for a quick sec you can here contactors clicking in the rcvr. Zone 2 will turn on and the main zone will continue playing what ever it was playing music or TV etc.......


Ok, rec head and all who have noticed this, I had some free time (wife and 2-year-old out of the house!) and decoded this issue.

It occurred to me that it was ONLY being reported with the X4000 and 3313CI (to my knowledge), and I have never noticed this on any other Denon (as I noted in the quote above). The common theme? Both of these models have HDMI Zone 2 matrix output.

So I did some testing, and the blank-out of main zone is obviously related to the HDMI Zone 2 output, presumably because it needs to resync the HDMI handshake because of the presence/removal of a potential HDMI sink. There is no way to disable the HDMI Zone 2 output and tell the receiver you are just doing a "normal" Zone 2.

So the results of my testing with the X4000 essentially confirm that it's related to the HDMI Zone 2:

1. I put an HDMI source (Roku) on main zone and turned Zone 2 on/off. As you have experienced, main zone blanks out for a second or two and then resyncs, just like if you switched inputs or if you switch from a 720p channel to a 1080i channel and the monitor blanks and resyncs.

2. I then tried it with Zone 3 (which of course has no HDMI output associated with it) and it didn't happen. Zone 3 can be turned on/off at will with no impact on main zone.

3. I couldn't figure out though why I never had noticed this before on my X4000. Then I realized, and tested to confirm, that I essentially never use main zone for video while I'm listening to music in the backyard. Literally my only use case for Zone 2 is streaming Airplay or Pandora out back, and I either don't have the main zone on or have it also set to the Network input. Music only. So I started up Airplay on main zone, started listening to some music, and turned Zone 2 on/off. No blank out!

Why not? The Network source is an internally tuned input, it doesn't have an external HDMI input source that would have to potentially renogatiate a handshake through the repeater and get new EDID info from two sinks instead of one (or vice versa).

So the blank-out of main zone only occurs when you are watching an external HDMI input on main zone, and only when you turn Zone 2 on/off (not Zone 3). This is consistent with the cause being rooted in the HDMI Zone 2 output.

Strengthening this theory, you can also induce the blank-out of main zone by switching Zone 2 source to/from the same HDMI input that main zone is on (again because this invokes the potential scenario of the external HDMI source having to renegotiate with two HDMI sinks). For example, if my main zone is on the Roku box input, and Zone 2 is already on, if I switch between two other sources (e.g. Blu-ray, Network) I get no blank-out. But if I switch Zone 2 to the Roku source, then I get a blank-out as the HDMI handshake resyncs.

Hopefully that puts this to bed in terms of explaining the *why* of what's going on and why this is only now being reported. I don't envision there being anything to potentially solve this short of Denon revising their menu options in future models to allow a "Zone 2 HDMI" setting to deactivate the HDMI output.

The good news is if this really annoys you and you only need one other zone, there is an easy fix: just use Zone 3 instead of Zone 2!
post #1488 of 6870
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

If the audio level is 0 and you're using the mfr default "absolute" volume scale of 0-99, then 0 would be mute. confused.gif

Audyssey doesn't set the speaker/sub levels (rather the AVR does this) so feel free to adjust them to suit your preference as doing so will not impact the Audyssey EQ.

But it’s not powering on with the Mute function active it’s powering on and setting the level to 0 and I see what you are saying but to me Mute is a momentary like zero state. Mute should typically operate outside of the current level setting. The current level value in its register is unchanged (0-99) then you have a Mute function that is like zero. When engaged the Mute function circumvents the level value register leaving it as it is but the amps or any signal to them are disabled like a level of 0. When the Mute function is disengaged the level is again read from the level value register. So, when you turn off the AVR with a level of 50 and then back on Mute should be engaged so when you toggle the Mute function off you are back at a level of 50 or if you hit volume up or down your at 50 +/- 0.5. I’d rather have it work this way but it’s working like a power on with the level at 0 with the Mute function Off not On.

But the Audyssey setup does make changes to the speaker levels. The thought was, if you then change the levels of the subs or other speakers the filters or calibration would then be out of whack.
post #1489 of 6870
^^
Then perhaps another owner can confirm their unit is not powering on in MUTE mode either as it may be a bug? Also, although the speaker/sub settings may be modified during the Audyssey Setup process, it is not Audyssey making these changes, so again, you can change the speaker/sub levels to suit your preference without impacting the Audyssey EQ process.
post #1490 of 6870
^^ confirmed, Power On Level set to MUTE in "Denonese" simply means "0". biggrin.gif
post #1491 of 6870
Does the HD LINK make a difference in audio Quality? like will i notice a difference between my Ps3 and The BD from Denon
post #1492 of 6870
Quote:
Originally Posted by JChin View Post

^^ confirmed, Power On Level set to MUTE in "Denonese" simply means "0". biggrin.gif

That is too bad. I thought it would be a nice feature to have with a universal remote. After it turns everything on again and you are paying attention having selected what you want to listen to you then unmute. It should just go from 1 to 0 on the setting, not Mute as it’s not. :P Oh well.
post #1493 of 6870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebas Garcia View Post

Does the HD LINK make a difference in audio Quality? like will i notice a difference between my Ps3 and The BD from Denon

With HDMI you are sending unsullied digital audio that the AVR can decode in-unit anyway. I had the older Denon Link setup at one point but that was back when you used RCA cables for the surround out of DVD player. It’s tuff to think you’d be able to tell any difference.
post #1494 of 6870
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Ok, rec head and all who have noticed this, I had some free time (wife and 2-year-old out of the house!) and decoded this issue.

It occurred to me that it was ONLY being reported with the X4000 and 3313CI (to my knowledge), and I have never noticed this on any other Denon (as I noted in the quote above). The common theme? Both of these models have HDMI Zone 2 matrix output.

So I did some testing, and the blank-out of main zone is obviously related to the HDMI Zone 2 output, presumably because it needs to resync the HDMI handshake because of the presence/removal of a potential HDMI sink. There is no way to disable the HDMI Zone 2 output and tell the receiver you are just doing a "normal" Zone 2.

So the results of my testing with the X4000 essentially confirm that it's related to the HDMI Zone 2:

1. I put an HDMI source (Roku) on main zone and turned Zone 2 on/off. As you have experienced, main zone blanks out for a second or two and then resyncs, just like if you switched inputs or if you switch from a 720p channel to a 1080i channel and the monitor blanks and resyncs.

2. I then tried it with Zone 3 (which of course has no HDMI output associated with it) and it didn't happen. Zone 3 can be turned on/off at will with no impact on main zone.

3. I couldn't figure out though why I never had noticed this before on my X4000. Then I realized, and tested to confirm, that I essentially never use main zone for video while I'm listening to music in the backyard. Literally my only use case for Zone 2 is streaming Airplay or Pandora out back, and I either don't have the main zone on or have it also set to the Network input. Music only. So I started up Airplay on main zone, started listening to some music, and turned Zone 2 on/off. No blank out!

Why not? The Network source is an internally tuned input, it doesn't have an external HDMI input source that would have to potentially renogatiate a handshake through the repeater and get new EDID info from two sinks instead of one (or vice versa).

So the blank-out of main zone only occurs when you are watching an external HDMI input on main zone, and only when you turn Zone 2 on/off (not Zone 3). This is consistent with the cause being rooted in the HDMI Zone 2 output.

Strengthening this theory, you can also induce the blank-out of main zone by switching Zone 2 source to/from the same HDMI input that main zone is on (again because this invokes the potential scenario of the external HDMI source having to renegotiate with two HDMI sinks). For example, if my main zone is on the Roku box input, and Zone 2 is already on, if I switch between two other sources (e.g. Blu-ray, Network) I get no blank-out. But if I switch Zone 2 to the Roku source, then I get a blank-out as the HDMI handshake resyncs.

Hopefully that puts this to bed in terms of explaining the *why* of what's going on and why this is only now being reported. I don't envision there being anything to potentially solve this short of Denon revising their menu options in future models to allow a "Zone 2 HDMI" setting to deactivate the HDMI output.

The good news is if this really annoys you and you only need one other zone, there is an easy fix: just use Zone 3 instead of Zone 2!

I figured it had something to do with HDMI and did try changing my settings and nothing changed the blackout. I should have posted my experiments. Thanks for being thorough and posting the results. I use both zone 2 and 3 so I can't switch. The problem doesn't happen to me often so it isn't that bad. I think what really bothers me is that with all this awesome tech built in there are still silly little problems.
post #1495 of 6870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebas Garcia View Post

Does the HD LINK make a difference in audio Quality? like will i notice a difference between my Ps3 and The BD from Denon

This is still a relatively new feature (first offered on last year's 3313CI and 4520CI) however currently only works with the Denon DBT 3313UDCI BDP and I don't recall if anyone has posted any feedback. I would suggest you repost in the 4520CI Owner's thread. Also note that there are a number of Denon 4311CI owners that use the Denon Link 4 connection and find it is superior to the standard HDMI connection on it's own.
post #1496 of 6870
Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post

Marantz SR7008 SAVE/LOAD function working with Firefox and Safari on both iMac and MacBook Air with Mountain Lion.

Just copy the link below on Safari or Firefox, of course you need to put your own IP address:

http://192.168.1.13/SETUP/OTHERS/f_others.asp

I checked with Denon and the reason the use of Safari and Firefox was removed was due to instability with their use, so use with that caveat in mind.
post #1497 of 6870
I had a Onkyo TX-NR3010 (needs a hdmi board) that died so I thought I'd just try out the Denon X4000. So far after 3 months EVERYTHING sounds better with the Denon and the hdmi switching is flawless which never was with my onkyo 3307/3010. I am adding front wide speakers and letting Audyssey calibrate as we speak. I was underwhelmed with front height and/or wides with the Onkyo but decided to revisit them with the Denon. Followup with impressions soon.
post #1498 of 6870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebas Garcia View Post

My job gives me discounts... How does the HD link work anyone know? im thinking of getting the Denon Blu ray player that has HD link
Nothing wrong with little luck,i never pay full retail price on receivers,bluray players and speakers.
post #1499 of 6870
Is my x4000 using the manual settings, the Audyssey xT32 settings, or both and how can I tell? I read the threads about how to set up to optimize bass management but I don't understand why the speaker size still says "Large" in the Audyssey set up screen even though I changed it to small in manual set up. Can someone please explain?

Thanks...
post #1500 of 6870
Quote:
Originally Posted by howletus View Post

Is my x4000 using the manual settings, the Audyssey xT32 settings, or both and how can I tell? I read the threads about how to set up to optimize bass management but I don't understand why the speaker size still says "Large" in the Audyssey set up screen even though I changed it to small in manual set up. Can someone please explain?

Thanks...
The reason,when changing to small all bass goes out of the subwoofer most tech's tell told me put your subwoofer on 100hz and depends what speakers you have.
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