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The 'Official' 2013 Denon "E Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 63

post #1861 of 6894
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by genofive0 View Post

I for sure plan on adding a second sub but the plan is to start with one then add another as the budget allows down the road. And as we all know how this bug works it will be upgrade, upgrade, upgrade LOL!!

This is why you should START with a better sub first. Worst thing is to get a lesser sub and then decide you want something better down the road. Even if that means you start with one at first... you are at the price point where a couple hundred extra bucks on the sub will make a real difference in quality and extension/output. The difference between the $300 type subs and the SVS PB-1000 is pretty big.

Quote:
So in short I will for sure do a second sub in the theater room once its setup its size is 12x24 I am thinking one in the front and one in the back of the room with the corner base traps.

Really I have a budget for the first speaker purchase I want 5.1 of around $1200-$1500 Later 4 months after getting a second sub will be no problem.

As for the speakers above I just wonder if the Bigger BIC speakers are worth it over the smaller klipch

Frankly, in a room that size you can definitely get away with smaller speakers. If it was MY system I would sacrifice on the speaker size (even going down to larger bookshelfs for the FR/FL mains) if it meant I could afford a better subwoofer.
post #1862 of 6894
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

This is why you should START with a better sub first. Worst thing is to get a lesser sub and then decide you want something better down the road. Even if that means you start with one at first... you are at the price point where a couple hundred extra bucks on the sub will make a real difference in quality and extension/output. The difference between the $300 type subs and the SVS PB-1000 is pretty big.
Frankly, in a room that size you can definitely get away with smaller speakers. If it was MY system I would sacrifice on the speaker size (even going down to larger bookshelfs for the FR/FL mains) if it meant I could afford a better subwoofer.

Thats great help. This will direct me into a new path. I will for sure look into getting better sub or subs and working on the speakers. later I might just use the speaker I have with the Denon DHT-486DV system that I bought in 2005 and am upgrading .
I will do the subs first in the theater then build from there... so for the $1000 range you recommend what subs?

By the way your website for the denon receivers is awesome and a huge help thank you smile.gif
post #1863 of 6894
Thread Starter 
For $1000 total I think there are really two choices: either the dual SVS PB-1000 subs I mentioned above, or dual Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus. Both will provide high quality bass with plenty of output for the room and strong extension down to 20Hz or below.

Be careful, if you go into the subwoofer forum with a $1000 budget, you will be advised to buy ONE thousand dollar sub and then start saving up another G for a second one wink.gifeek.gifbiggrin.gif
post #1864 of 6894
^this is so true. I'm literally pm'ing JD about that second 1g sub now eek.gif
post #1865 of 6894
Thread Starter 
Thankfully with only a 12x24 room size, even with 10ft ceilings it's under 3,000 cubic ft total volume so he should have more than enough "subwoofage" with either dual PB-1000 or LFM-1 Plus. redface.gif
post #1866 of 6894
the second he needs both WAF and performance the $$ really start to rise bit though doesn't it ? smile.gif
post #1867 of 6894
Thread Starter 
For sure. Actually though, if he does need WAF, that room is small enough that he could go with dual SB-1000 instead of PB-1000. The sealed SB is MUCH smaller (13" cube) and should still have plenty of output for the room, and with room gain should get pretty darn close to 20Hz response. The advantage of the ported PB-1000 version is of course the additional output and extension, but if size is a big priority then the SB-1000 will also be awesome.

Of course, it sounds like he has the green light to go full man cave on this one, so probably a non-issue cool.gif
post #1868 of 6894
yup, those are both really good cheap options for a small room for sure. With my bigger room I needed to go with something substantially more powerful, but yet still be a 'pretty' 13" cube. Oh well, at least I get the woofage in the end biggrin.gif
post #1869 of 6894
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

For $1000 total I think there are really two choices: either the dual SVS PB-1000 subs I mentioned above, or dual Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus. Both will provide high quality bass with plenty of output for the room and strong extension down to 20Hz or below.

Be careful, if you go into the subwoofer forum with a $1000 budget, you will be advised to buy ONE thousand dollar sub and then start saving up another G for a second one wink.gifeek.gifbiggrin.gif

HAhahah advise taken.. Like I said this is going to be a process for me. and I have a lot to learn. But just like everyone on this forum I want the best sound and experience I can get with my budget for some that is $700 total and others that is $500,000+

Like these speakers that I got to listen to the other day in scottsdale. Let me tell you it was amazing experience but I guess it should be for $265,000 speakers yes that the bald me LOL!]
post #1870 of 6894
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

For sure. Actually though, if he does need WAF, that room is small enough that he could go with dual SB-1000 instead of PB-1000. The sealed SB is MUCH smaller (13" cube) and should still have plenty of output for the room, and with room gain should get pretty darn close to 20Hz response. The advantage of the ported PB-1000 version is of course the additional output and extension, but if size is a big priority then the SB-1000 will also be awesome.

Of course, it sounds like he has the green light to go full man cave on this one, so probably a non-issue cool.gif

Green light is a go smile.gif with a budget mad.gif

You are a great asset to this forum and I appreciate all the advise. I am just learning and reading as much as I can
post #1871 of 6894
After doing a ton of reading its looking like I'm going to go with the pb-1000s I'm just going to get one too start then get another in month or two
post #1872 of 6894
Hi everybody
I currently have the dreaded Onkyo 807 since 3 1/2 years now fortunately without problem so far but I do not yet use the HDMI inputs, maybe this explains that.

Still now I am trying to convince myself to go for a x4000 mainly as I plan to move digital at last and also to benefit from xt32 equalization.
This is all set in a dedicated HC mezzanine and we don't care about any other zone.

My question now is about my 7.1 speakers set, it's all with the former JBL Studio L series, that is 2 x L890, 2 x L820, 2 x L810 but I recently replaced the center LC3 by one ES30, I also have a sub but we do not really use it or only very occasionally as our older ears do not react well with ultra bass sound and the L890 bass is good enough.

So would you say that this setup is in line with the x4000, as you often recommand to favor speakers before the AVR ?
Thanks a lot.
post #1873 of 6894
^^
If it's in line with your budget ... then it's in line with your speaker/sub setup. smile.gif
post #1874 of 6894
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
If it's in line with your budget ... then it's in line with your speaker/sub setup. smile.gif
Thanks for that quick answer.

The x4000 would be the very upper budget limit, and I was concerned that my speaker's setup would then no longer be good enough to benefit from the receiver's qualities.
post #1875 of 6894
Quote:
Originally Posted by genofive0 View Post

After doing a ton of reading its looking like I'm going to go with the pb-1000s I'm just going to get one too start then get another in month or two

Be sure to start reading up on speakers placement while you wait for it to arrive. I'm guessing that since you are considering 2 subs that you have some room to play. The sub crawl is always fun and you get to really hear boundary effects that are always talked about.
post #1876 of 6894
jj-34, what type speakers do you have now?

Nevermind, I see the answer.
post #1877 of 6894
Quote:
Originally Posted by rec head View Post

Be sure to start reading up on speakers placement while you wait for it to arrive. I'm guessing that since you are considering 2 subs that you have some room to play. The sub crawl is always fun and you get to really hear boundary effects that are always talked about.

Started looking at that last night.. I had no Idea what sub crawl was..
post #1878 of 6894
Hi All,

O.K., this thread is going to get me in trouble with my wife. First the X4000 and now this talk about dual SVS SB-1000 subs has me contemplating some changes to my planned system. I’ve been putting together my HT system and whole house audio with help from many threads on AVS. I’d like to get input from you all based on some of the things that have recently been mentioned about quality of speakers matching up with the X4000 and the idea of two subs instead of one.
Here is the update on where things currently stand:

The house we are building has progressed and I actually have a 1:30 p.m. meeting with the pre-wire folks who will be running pre-wires for 7.1 in the family room and whole house audio. When we are close to closing, I’ll be pulling the trigger on the X4000 based on my prior communications with Craig at AV Science. The speakers I’ll be using are:

• Fronts – My current Boston Acoustic VR-M60’s
• Center – My current Boston Acoustic VR-MC
• Surrounds – TBD – It was mentioned a pair of Boston Acoustic VSi 560s would be a good match with my older VR series speakers.
• Back Surrounds – TBD – Again, it was mentioned a pair of Boston Acoustic VSi 560s would be a good match with my older VR series speakers but adding the back surrounds may occur later down the road.
• Sub – My current SVS 25-31 PC Plus

Here are my questions. If you thinks of some I should be asking, feel free to answer those too.

(1) What are you more experienced X4000 owners thoughts on pairing the X4000 with the Boston Acoustic speakers listed above?

(2) Regarding dual subwoofers, I’m not sure how the SVS SB-1000 compares to my older SVS 25-31 PC Plus. That said, my wife has from day 1 said that the 25-31 PC Plus was way to big and judging from the size of the SB-1000 it may be something she would prefer. Would it make sense based on the system I am putting together to consider selling my 25-31 PC Plus and getting one SB-1000? Would this give me comparable sound to what I get from the 25-31 PC Plus?

(3) Taking it a step further, I obviously could later add a second SB-1000 to take advantage of the X4000 dual sub capabilities. I just need to tell the pre-wire folks to run another shielded coax. I believe they are currently running a shielded coax in the front of the room and in the back of the room because I wanted to have two possible locations to place a sub in case one sounded better than the other.

My floor plan is attached for room dimension purposed and the HT will be in the family room which has the big couch shown in it.
Home Theater Plan PDF - 8-21-13.pdf 1304k .pdf file

Any thoughts are really appreciated. Just putting this all together so we can pull the trigger on needed purchases the week after the house is down.
post #1879 of 6894
Pre-wiring for the 2 subs in advance is a great idea (opposite corners can be hard to run wires to). I doubt you'll be disappointed with the x4000 and its handling of your speakers; the GUI on the other hand, well thankfully you don't need to use the menus much.
post #1880 of 6894
Sorry I don't open strange files so I didn't see your layout. In general if I was wiring something now I would have it be for 11.2 minimum for expansion and flexibility. I would also have the sub wiring to each place you might ever want the sub not just where you think you might want one now. Sub and speaker location should be determined by how they sound in that location as much as possible. Few of us get to have a ground up theater so there are compromises.
post #1881 of 6894
Thread Starter 
Yes, for sure have him run wires for dual subs and ALSO at minimum heights (either high up on the front wall or in the ceiling up close to the front wall) in addition to the standard 7 channels. Depending on the room layout I would also wire for "wide" speakers but not all rooms can accomodate this. It will so SO MUCH harder to run wire in-wall later on, since this is new construction it's insane not to run extra wire, the incremental cost is practically a drop in the bucket.

Looking at your room layout, it does look like you could accommodate wides pretty easily, basically on either side wall along the axis of that vertical line in front of the TV would be perfect. I also assume the circles around the couch will be in-ceiling surrounds? I would probably spread the side surrounds a little wider (further from the couch, closer to the walls) and then maybe spread the back surrounds a tiny bit, although I don't have a protractor or anything to check (you can find many articles and graphs on suggested speaker angles). Unless it's a very high front wall I would wire for in-ceiling heights in the ceiling a bit wider than the front L/R speakers and a foot or two out from the wall with the display.

The room doesn't look huge but be aware that the SB-1000 is a small sealed sub (not to be confused with the larger PB-1000 ported version) and can't be expected to have the same output as the giant cylinder sub. Physics is physics and a huge enclosure will trump a small wall... but that said, the room is small enough that dual SB-1000's could probably energize it fully. Obviously there are compromises necessary if you want to go with small subs to make the wife happy. I don't know what your budget is but SVS makes a slightly larger (but still tiny) sealed sub, the SB12-NSD: http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/sealed-box/sb12-nsd#.UhTtrZK1GVM

This is still smaller than a 15" cube but is more powerful than the SB-1000, and very highly reviewed. If you called up SVS (they have awesome customer service) and talked to them I'm sure they could make a recommendation about which will be best.
post #1882 of 6894
Heading off to the meeting at the house now. We are running conduit in the walls so running speaker wire for heights won't as difficutl later on as it would have been without conduit. I don't thing wides are something the room will accommodate. Batpig, I will relay your suggestion to the pre-wire folk and have them put the surrounds wider out. The width of the coach is 10 feet 5 inches so I wasn't sure how far to push them beyond the edges of the couch with 12 foot ceilings and a central listening position on the couch.

For those rightfully concerned with openning an attachment, here is an image.

post #1883 of 6894
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Batpig, I will relay your suggestion to the pre-wire folk and have them put the surrounds wider out. The width of the coach is 10 feet 5 inches so I wasn't sure how far to push them beyond the edges of the couch with 12 foot ceilings and a central listening position on the couch.

The primary surround channels are supposed to replicate content to the SIDES, in a movie theater or mixing studio there will be an array of speakers lining each side wall. So spreading the surrounds out wider will enhance this effect and help the soundtrack wrap around more seamlessly from the front soundstage.
post #1884 of 6894
There are some insanely powerful (and sleeek) small 13" cube sealed subs out there (~3000 watts) that can make up for their size and the physics with sheer power if you are willing to go into the 1k and beyond price zone - with those, you might be fine with just one. I have a ~10,000 cubic foot room that is getting really good performance out of just one small sealed sub.
post #1885 of 6894
Thread Starter 
For sure, but the recommendation for dual subs IMO is less about increasing headroom and more about the ancillary benefit of smoother in-room response due to the cancellation of room modes. You can definitely get a nice response with one sub and XT32 but the acoustic benefits of multiple subs are well established. For a moderate sized room for example I'd rather have dual SVS SB12-NSD than a single SB13-Ultra, even though the Ultra will crush the NSD in terms of output.
post #1886 of 6894
Unfortunately the SB13 ultra is not a good option for me since its too large for my WAF. I wasn't specifically talking about increasing headroom btw....in small sealed subs you need more power to deal with the sensitivity issue from the way I understand Hoffmans iron law.

I am shopping for my second sub now so I can see what the 'smoother' response really translates to from my only listening position that matters. Even if it doesn't do much from that standpoint, I still feel getting slightly deeper and having more headroom would still be nice benefits for those movies with insanse subsonic LFE.
post #1887 of 6894
I'm looking for some advice regarding an upcoming purchase. As of now I'm looking to purchase a new receiver and I have my eye on the new X2000-X4000 models. The objective for the moment is to add a receiver and speakers to an existing gaming setup that has slowly taken on additional use for viewing TV and movies. Note that my room is a fairly challenging finished basement that's roughly 28'x24', with the display centered on one wall. There are some odd-shaped cutouts and protrusions along 2 walls, along with columns and an open staircase.

Current setup:
-50" Pioneer PDP-5010FD
-DirecTV HD box
-Pioneer BDP-62FD blu-ray
-bunch of game consoles
-AudioEngine 5's for basic 2 channel sound

Note that this is my "second" home theater setup as I don't do any gaming on the primary.

In terms of speakers, I currently plan to purchase a GoldenEar SuperCinema soundbar and sub for the time being. I'm a bit challenged for space for towers, so I've decided to go with this configuration as long as I can get quality 2.1 sound in this room. Usage will be 50/50 for home theater and music, but I'm not generally an audiophile.

The plan: Currently I'm thinking I'll add the receiver and speakers to this configuration to achieve my short term goals of improving sound and gaining additional HDMI ports. Within the next 2 years I plan to overhaul our primary home theater setup and the receiver will be repurposed for this, along with driving a zone 2 on a different floor of the home. It's likely that the current gaming setup will be decommissioned at that time.

The questions:
-Should I be looking toward the X4000 for the more sophisticated Audyssey to assist with this sub-optimal room?
-Should I be looking toward the X4000's additional power due to the size of this room?
-Anything else I should be considering, as I'm fairly inexperienced with audio.

Initially I was looking to spend as little as possible, but as I thought about the future plans that would let me repurpose the AVR I started considering the X4000.
post #1888 of 6894
Thread Starter 
To be honest, I'd be a little leery of buying something better than what you need with the idea of "repurposing" it several years down the road. The X4000 is awesome but technology changes so fast these days, who knows if something even more awesome will be right down the pipeline that you'd rather have for the primary HT.

If you are just going to use a soundbar + sub, frankly I'd just go cheap and get the X1000 and move on. Save your money for other upgrades. Power shouldn't be relevant with a soundbar. Yes XT32 is better than XT but for a 2.1 type soundbar setup? Not worth spending all that extra money just for that. If you decide the X4000 is the one for you when you overhaul the primary setup, you can probably buy a used X4000 for much cheaper in 2 years wink.gif
post #1889 of 6894
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

There are some insanely powerful (and sleeek) small 13" cube sealed subs out there (~3000 watts) that can make up for their size and the physics with sheer power if you are willing to go into the 1k and beyond price zone - with those, you might be fine with just one. I have a ~10,000 cubic foot room that is getting really good performance out of just one small sealed sub.

I've been doing some research using the REW room simulator which has confirmed something I've probably been aware of for a while: I need a second sub and it needs to be at the back of my room. Since I've done a lot of remodelling this year and the room is pretty much how we want it, the only spot for this second sub is under a nest of tables. The little SB1000 would fit perfectly, but of course on the sub forums I got a hard time (even though I'm planing a 15" sealed sub for the front of the room to replace a troublesome ported 12" I've had for a few years). However, I've modelled a sealed 12" in the same size cabinet as the SB1000 and with an Fi Q series driver that can handle 1500 watts eek.gif it's surprising how much output I could get out of this little sub for less money, due to the stronger driver. It's only about 3dB down on a much bigger 15" that will run at the front, so it should comfortably fill the null I suffer from with a single sub at the front.

Due to finances I'm doing this stage by stage, but I'll probably replace my processor and separate amps at some point with an X4000 (plus the better of my power amps for the front three and to take the load off the X4000). The dual sub EQ is the critical thing that I'm looking for of course given the above. For now I'll have to make do with careful set up using REW and a single Antimode shared between the two subs. It might be that an X4001 (or whatever) is out by then, or perhaps I'll just get a good deal on an X4000. cool.gif
post #1890 of 6894
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

To be honest, I'd be a little leery of buying something better than what you need with the idea of "repurposing" it several years down the road. The X4000 is awesome but technology changes so fast these days, who knows if something even more awesome will be right down the pipeline that you'd rather have for the primary HT.

If you are just going to use a soundbar + sub, frankly I'd just go cheap and get the X1000 and move on. Save your money for other upgrades. Power shouldn't be relevant with a soundbar. Yes XT32 is better than XT but for a 2.1 type soundbar setup? Not worth spending all that extra money just for that. If you decide the X4000 is the one for you when you overhaul the primary setup, you can probably buy a used X4000 for much cheaper in 2 years wink.gif

Thanks for the advice. That's what I suspected that I'd hear, though I was unclear as to the specific advantages of the better XT32.

Initially I was looking to go with high quality tower speakers (also to repurpose), and likely a much better end result. Unfortunately that would require the re-arrange of some furniture and I think I've about given up that fight as it pertains to the WAF. Hopefully I'll be satisfied with the middle ground that I'm headed toward.
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