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The 'Official' 2013 Denon "E Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 8

post #211 of 6911
Thread Starter 
Yes. This is all noted at the beginning of the thread. The X4000 has 7 amps built in but can expan to 9ch with the addition of at least two channels of external amplification.
post #212 of 6911
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastaMind View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Please read through the info I've assembled in the first thread concerning what has changed on the new models. If multizone functionality is a big selling point, there are some major changes in the X Series models that may be of interest to you. There are also some other minor changes (e.g., that new INFO button graphic posted above) that might be appealing.

Also note that the dual HDMI outs on the 2313CI are parallel outputs (e.g., for switching between two displays in the same room). Not sure what you are intending to use the dual outputs for, but the X3000 (replacement for the 2313CI) has dual HDMI outputs that are fully independent, i.e., you can send a separate HDMI source to another room while playing a different source in Main Zone.

The X3000 of course would be the best of both worlds, but it is more expensive at this point. All of the above models feature MultEQ XT so will be an upgrade in sound quality from your 1910, plus you will get cool network features, better video processing, and full graphic overlays for on-screen menus, volume display, etc.

Thanks for the info, batpig. I've read through the OP trying to identify what's important and what's not. Multizone functionality will not be utilized, so those improvements are not relevant. Regarding the dual HDMI outputs, my plan is to run both outs to different inputs on my TV. This will allow me to maintain different calibration settings on each input, which will be easier than adjusting settings on one input depending on the source.

I am a little confused about the difference with the HDMI Standby Passthrough and CEC. Also, both models offer identical 4k scaling/passthrough, right?

The updated INFO graphic and Video Select function are nice improvements, but I don't know that they're deal breakers.

If you won't be using the multizone upgrades then the 2313CI at the discounted price is probably the smart buy. You get the dual HDMI outputs that you want and it has more power, more legacy inputs (extra component video input plus an output, two extra digital inputs, extra analog RCA), and some other extra features like Audyssey DSX.

Yes, all of last year's CI models and the new X Series models use the same 4k video processing chip. No difference in video features.

Also worth noting, since you mention different video calibrations for each source, that these receivers do have "picture mode" settings that allow you to tweak basic brightness, contrast, saturation, etc. per input. Not as robust as a full calibration but may be useful if, for example, you want to have the Xbox input cranked up a bit in contrast and color saturation while leaving the Blu-ray player at the calibrated setting.

In terms of passthrough / CEC.... HDMI-CEC is the technology that allows HDMI devices to "talk" to each other and control each other. For example, it may allow the Blu-ray player to automatically switch the receiver to the Blu-ray input when you turn it on, or it may allow the receiver to turn off automatically when you turn off the TV. It is also required to be enabled for ARC (audio return channel) to function and pipe audio back from the TV if you have any built-in sources (e.g. streaming apps) in the TV itself. However, HDMI-CEC is kind of inconsistently implemented and often causes wacky problems that are more annoying than the benefits it provides. Previously, the HDMI-CEC setting in the receiver (HDMI Control) needed to be enabled to have the HDMI Standby Passthrough function. On these new models, the two are now disconnected, so you can utilize HDMI passthrough without turning on HDMI-CEC.
post #213 of 6911
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmetz2 View Post

Does anyone know what video processing (scaler/deinterlacer) chip (chipset?) is in the X series? Is it capable of handling the 240p/288p output of old game consoles? I have a Faroudja-based 989 that cannot, but I've seen many posts/reports of people using the ABT based receivers (e.g., 3310/3311) with those and it appears to work fine for them. I haven't heard anything about the receivers that scale to 4k; that would certainly be a jump that would be likely to mean a new video chip/chipset.

Also, does anyone know if the video chip/chipset puts out a lot of heat in the X series? I got an impression that the 4k capable video chips use more power / generate more heat than before, even when not really in use - is that a correct impression?

The X Series (just like last year's CI models) uses the Analog Devices ADV8003 for scaling/deinterlacing: http://www.analog.com/en/audiovideo-products/video-encoders/adv8003/products/product.html

Video bench tests have been excellent: http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-2313ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

Older video games can be hit or miss. You may want to ask in the xx13 thread (since it uses the same video chip) if anyone has been able to successfully upconvert older legacy video game systems.
post #214 of 6911
Really looking forward to some pricing & reviews of X2000 and X3000. I'm looking forward to buying one of those this year. For folks who've already ordered them, are you expecting to receive them by the end of this month or earlier?
post #215 of 6911
Prices I can give you ( call me ! ). I too am looking forward to reviews. While I had my sights set on a new 4520, I'm thinking a AVR X4000 and the difference put towards a 2 channel amp makes more sense for my set up.

Nice to have new choices !! smile.gif
Edited by Craig Peer - 5/7/13 at 2:02pm
post #216 of 6911
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Prices I can give you ( call me ! ). I too am looking forward to reviews. While I had my sights set on a new 4520, I'm thinking a AVR X4000 and the difference put towards a 2 channel amp makes more sense for my set up.

Nice to have new choices !! smile.gif

Well I just picked up a 4520 from amazon warehouse deals for $1475. I still have the x4000 on pre order. If the 4520 is in bad shape I will send it back to amazon. The length of the 4520 will cause me some issues.
post #217 of 6911
Is the FULL Factory Warranty in effect from Denon on the Amazon 4520?
post #218 of 6911
Yup. smile.gif
post #219 of 6911
That $ 1,475.00 price is for a used 4520. AV Science is a fully authorized Denon dealer by the way.

I'll try and post here when the new X3000 and X4000's start shipping to us. smile.gif
post #220 of 6911
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

That $ 1,475.00 price is for a used 4520. AV Science is a fully authorized Denon dealer by the way.

I'll try and post here when the new X3000 and X4000's start shipping to us. smile.gif

For $1000 off msrp I have no problems it being used. Just as long as it works and not to physical beat up.
post #221 of 6911
Me either with full warranty but maybe call avs first & see what they can do.
post #222 of 6911
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

If you won't be using the multizone upgrades then the 2313CI at the discounted price is probably the smart buy. You get the dual HDMI outputs that you want and it has more power, more legacy inputs (extra component video input plus an output, two extra digital inputs, extra analog RCA), and some other extra features like Audyssey DSX.

Yes, all of last year's CI models and the new X Series models use the same 4k video processing chip. No difference in video features.

Also worth noting, since you mention different video calibrations for each source, that these receivers do have "picture mode" settings that allow you to tweak basic brightness, contrast, saturation, etc. per input. Not as robust as a full calibration but may be useful if, for example, you want to have the Xbox input cranked up a bit in contrast and color saturation while leaving the Blu-ray player at the calibrated setting.

In terms of passthrough / CEC.... HDMI-CEC is the technology that allows HDMI devices to "talk" to each other and control each other. For example, it may allow the Blu-ray player to automatically switch the receiver to the Blu-ray input when you turn it on, or it may allow the receiver to turn off automatically when you turn off the TV. It is also required to be enabled for ARC (audio return channel) to function and pipe audio back from the TV if you have any built-in sources (e.g. streaming apps) in the TV itself. However, HDMI-CEC is kind of inconsistently implemented and often causes wacky problems that are more annoying than the benefits it provides. Previously, the HDMI-CEC setting in the receiver (HDMI Control) needed to be enabled to have the HDMI Standby Passthrough function. On these new models, the two are now disconnected, so you can utilize HDMI passthrough without turning on HDMI-CEC.

Great, thanks for breaking that down for me. I really appreciate your help. I figured the 2313 was a pretty good deal, and it's what I ended up ordering. I'll go hang out in the XX13 owners thread now. smile.gif
post #223 of 6911
I’m having a hard time deciding between the 1713 and the newer X1000.

I can get the 1713 for $369 or the X1000 for $449. With the X1000 I would be getting an extra year of warranty, return of AM Radio, and I believe one of the new features would allow me to watch an HDMI source (DirecTV) and listen to my ipod via airplay at the same time, which you couldn’t do on previous models if I’m reading correctly.

Are there any other features/benefits the X1000 would have over the 1713? Do you guys think it’s worth the upgrade? Looking for a little advice from those more familiar and have already read the new manuals, etc.

Thanks!
post #224 of 6911

The Denon web site now lists the x4000 as "In Stock". Yesterday it was listed as Pre-Order.

post #225 of 6911
I can confirm that the E-300 has the "enhanced" info graphic, like the E-400 does (as shown above).
The E-200 does NOT.


-Ed
post #226 of 6911
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

As some clarification on my earlier post, some updated info:

- It is accurate that the X3000/X4000 can play ANY source, digital or analog, to other zones. However, for digital audio inputs, it will only work with a 2.0 PCM input stream. I now see this is noted clearly in the "Tips" section:




- My earlier thought was that you could play multich audio in main zone, and then the receiver would do a "background downmix" of the multich audio to 2.0 PCM when the ZONE 2 / HDMI AUDIO setting is set to "PCM". So, for example, you could be watching the football game in 5.1 Dolby Digital in Main Zone, and then play the audio from the game on the Zone 2 speakers in stereo with the main zone remaining on DD 5.1. However, this is not accurate -- the receiver itself doesn't do a downmix; rather, when you set that setting to "PCM", the EDID for the Zone 2 source is set to request 2.0 PCM from the SOURCE. So, in the example above, when Zone 2 and Main Zone are playing the same source (football game), the cable box would "see" that the EDID request is for 2.0 PCM, and would set itself to 2.0 PCM output. In other words, the source itself is forced to do the downmix to 2.0 PCM before the signal ever gets to the receiver, and thus the audio in BOTH zones will be 2.0 PCM. So the receiver would then switch to PLII Cinema (or whatever) to matrix the surround sound in Main Zone.

- If Main Zone and Zone 2 are not set to the same source, it's not an issue. So, for example, continuing with the example above. Let's say you have your cable box and Apple TV hooked up to the receiver with HDMI. You set the ZONE 2 / HDMI AUDIO setting to "PCM" to enable HDMI audio to Zone 2. You are watching the football game from the cable box in Main Zone, listening to the DD 5.1 broadcast. Now, you start streaming from music from the Apple TV to Zone 2. The Apple TV will see the EDID request from Zone 2 and provide "legal" 2.0 PCM output, and the HDMI audio will play in Zone 2 with no issues, and the football game will continue in 5.1 DD in Main Zone.


So, in simple terms -- whether you are using the HDMI Zone matrix output or the "standard" Zone 2/3 stereo audio output, if you select the same source for Main Zone and Zone 2/3, you will be limited by the "lowest common denominator" audio rule and the input signal will become 2.0 PCM stereo for all zones. If you select a different source for Zone 2/3 (or of course if Zone 2/3 is off) then the Main Zone will operate normally, and Zone 2/3 will seamlessly force a stereo downmix and can play digital sources without any additional cabling.

This is still a HUGE advance of course, as you finally can toss those analog RCA cables and play audio to any zone using only digital cables. Not quite the "holy grail" of a background downmix of multich digital input sources, but a huge step forward nonetheless.

This right here may be the ticket that gives me the impetus to upgrade from my long and faithfully serving AVR-988. I have a TV setup on my back patio and have used the Zone2 feature of my 988 to drive audio to my backyard speakers. I've been limited by having to run analog audio from my DirecTV box in parallel with the HDMI connection to feed stereo audio to zone 2. (of course, only have 2 HDMI inputs had grown to be a pain as well). I think I see an X4000 in my near future.

As usual, thanks for your translating all things Denon into useful English, Batpig!
post #227 of 6911
One more general question - regarding Airplay:

Is it still limited to audio only? Or has Apple finally allowed Airplay streaming receivers like AVR's to take the video signal as well? I currently have an Apple TV hooked up to my AVR-988 and we'll often entertain ourselves by streaming Youtube videos or Itunes movie trailers from an Ipad to the AVR via the Apple TV as it is much easier to search for content on the Ipad.

So, if it's still audio only, it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, but if it does not allow video, then I could redeploy the Apple TV or find a new home for it with a friend or family member.
post #228 of 6911
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanchoPanza View Post

Is the FULL Factory Warranty in effect from Denon on the Amazon 4520?

No warranty on the warehouse deals! Denon will not honor it. Then again, from what I read Denon support is not the best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Yup. smile.gif

If you buy new aka the $2400 price then yes warranty. If warehouse deals you can get the square trade warranty.
post #229 of 6911
Quote:
Me either with full warranty but maybe call avs first & see what they can do.

Thank you! Yes, give us a call.
post #230 of 6911
Do any of these units have an optical OUT?

also:

* A "Video Select" function, accessed via the OPTION button on the remote, allows you to listen to a USB/Tuner/Network audio source while watching a separate video source (including HDMI inputs!)

If I want the receiver to output video from my cable box or xbox 360 (via HDMI) but play audio from a different source, for example my squeezebox via an optical or coaxial digital input, will this work? Thanks.
post #231 of 6911
Quote:
Originally Posted by petaylor View Post

Just to make it even more fun at this stage, I just did a quick check on the web, and Crutchfield lists the 2313CI at $50 lesss than their X2000 price. I haven't called anyone, yet. It just means that the 2313CI should be considered, as well. I need to and will go back and do a feature/price comparison, for the 2113CI, 2313CI, and X2000, and keep my ear to the rail.
Ha I'm interested in those exact models as well but I'm throwing in the Sony STR DN1040 into the mix.
I know, I know some people in this thread don't like Sony AVRs but they are improving!
post #232 of 6911
Quote:
Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post

Ha I'm interested in those exact models as well but I'm throwing in the Sony STR DN1040 into the mix.
I know, I know some people in this thread don't like Sony AVRs but they are improving!

What kind of room calibration does Sony use?
post #233 of 6911
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Snigggles View Post

The Denon web site now lists the x4000 as "In Stock". Yesterday it was listed as Pre-Order.
Thats earlier then I expected, perhaps some dealers will start getting these soon.
post #234 of 6911
Quote:
Originally Posted by ultimate_ed View Post

One more general question - regarding Airplay:

Is it still limited to audio only? Or has Apple finally allowed Airplay streaming receivers like AVR's to take the video signal as well? I currently have an Apple TV hooked up to my AVR-988 and we'll often entertain ourselves by streaming Youtube videos or Itunes movie trailers from an Ipad to the AVR via the Apple TV as it is much easier to search for content on the Ipad.

So, if it's still audio only, it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, but if it does not allow video, then I could redeploy the Apple TV or find a new home for it with a friend or family member.

Yes, audio only when using the on board Airplay.
post #235 of 6911
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carminus View Post

No warranty on the warehouse deals! Denon will not honor it. Then again, from what I read Denon support is not the best.
If you buy new aka the $2400 price then yes warranty. If warehouse deals you can get the square trade warranty.

Last I heard, Denon is indeed covering Warehouse deals with a full warranty if advertised as Open box and not refurbished.
post #236 of 6911
Quote:
Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post

Do any of these units have an optical OUT?

also:

* A "Video Select" function, accessed via the OPTION button on the remote, allows you to listen to a USB/Tuner/Network audio source while watching a separate video source (including HDMI inputs!)

If I want the receiver to output video from my cable box or xbox 360 (via HDMI) but play audio from a different source, for example my squeezebox via an optical or coaxial digital input, will this work? Thanks.

1. Nope. Optical OUT is no longer supported.

2. Not using the Video Select feature no. The Video Select feature on past year's models would only work with "analog" video sources, while it now although working with HDMI video sources, only works with the USB/Tuner/Network audio. You can however, connect the cable box HDMI directly to the TV (recommended anyway to avoid HDMI handshake issues possible from firmware updates to the cable box) and then use any audio source connected to the AVR and for the xBox, you can assign it and the audio to the same source name and change the INPUT MODE to "Digital".
post #237 of 6911
fwiw, my 3311 has optical out & my 3312 does not
post #238 of 6911
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Snigggles View Post

The Denon web site now lists the x4000 as "In Stock". Yesterday it was listed as Pre-Order.

Darn. Now it changed back to preorder for the 4000. The 3000 remains as in stock.

post #239 of 6911
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Yes. This is all noted at the beginning of the thread. The X4000 has 7 amps built in but can expan to 9ch with the addition of at least two channels of external amplification.

Hi,

Many kind thanks for the info - much appreciated! I notice the specs of the X4000 state that it is either 125, 165 or 235 watts per channel. Would one need to find an external amplifier that is of the same power figures then & if so, which one? Does it need to be a dedicated power amplifier or a stereo integrated one? Are there any that you know of that might be suitable & would match well with the X4000?

Many Kind Thanks,
Bazzy!
post #240 of 6911
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Well, we have yet to have an actual OWNER post in this thread so there's a lot of ambiguity. You might want to ask in the xx13 model owner's thread for question 1a/b as it can be assumed that this USB music function will work the same way.
As to question 2, pretty much all Denon receivers have a 0.5dB volume increment. If you tap the volume it will go up/down by 0.5dB with each tap, if you hold it down after a half second or so it will start to accelerate.

Thank you for your reply Batpig; you are the most helpful terrorist and rioter I have ever encountered.
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