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The 'Official' 2013 Denon "E Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 117

post #3481 of 6883
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WannaLearnMore View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

My opinion is that "going big" means the X4000 for XT32 and potential 9ch expansion and dual sub calibration.

I see how you can have interpreted 'going big' technically vs. monetarily. I guess I want to take into consideration of both to get best bang for the buck and support of both rooms...

Thanks for the input and your advice.

The bottom line -- and reiterating what JD said -- is that the more current X2000 or X3000 are NOT going to be a major leap forward from your 2309CI except in features (networking, fancy GUI over HDMI, etc). The X3000 is the direct replacement of the 23xx level models, so in essence you would not be "upgrading" per se but rather just "modernizing" in features. These models do bring MultEQ XT to the table (vs. the more basic MultEQ on your 2309) but that will be a more subtle improvement and the big point is that you should not expect a great leap forward sonically going to one of these models.

So if you just want to update features (adding Airplay, Pandora and other network fluff, ability to access the receiver via smartphone app or web browser, etc.) then upgrading to an X2000/3000 will be a nice step forward in featureset, but it will be at best a subtle step forward in audio quality. The X4000 with the uber-advanced XT32 calibration, dual sub calibration with SubEQ HT, ability to expand to a 9ch DSX/NeoX setup, etc. will be a much bigger step forward.

So, bottom line -- if you are happy with the 2309 in terms of audio quality and features, and don't want to splurge for the X4000 for the man cave, just get a nice budget model for the lesser setup and use the savings for other upgrades like another sub as JD suggested. Other high-yield investments would include acoustic treatments for the man cave, and if you want to go deeper down the rabbit hole, a measurement system (e.g. spending $100 on a calibrted USB mic and then learning to use REW) so you can optimize the room acoustics.
post #3482 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

The bottom line -- and reiterating what JD said -- is that the more current X2000 or X3000 are NOT going to be a major leap forward from your 2309CI except in features (networking, fancy GUI over HDMI, etc). The X3000 is the direct replacement of the 23xx level models, so in essence you would not be "upgrading" per se but rather just "modernizing" in features. These models do bring MultEQ XT to the table (vs. the more basic MultEQ on your 2309) but that will be a more subtle improvement and the big point is that you should not expect a great leap forward sonically going to one of these models.

So if you just want to update features (adding Airplay, Pandora and other network fluff, ability to access the receiver via smartphone app or web browser, etc.) then upgrading to an X2000/3000 will be a nice step forward in featureset, but it will be at best a subtle step forward in audio quality. The X4000 with the uber-advanced XT32 calibration, dual sub calibration with SubEQ HT, ability to expand to a 9ch DSX/NeoX setup, etc. will be a much bigger step forward.

So, bottom line -- if you are happy with the 2309 in terms of audio quality and features, and don't want to splurge for the X4000 for the man cave, just get a nice budget model for the lesser setup and use the savings for other upgrades like another sub as JD suggested. Other high-yield investments would include acoustic treatments for the man cave, and if you want to go deeper down the rabbit hole, a measurement system (e.g. spending $100 on a calibrted USB mic and then learning to use REW) so you can optimize the room acoustics.

Thanks for the follow-up and elaborating on your initial response. This was more meaningful and informational. Makes perfect sense to know that it's not much of a jump up acoustically from the 2309CI, more of new network features. I do enjoy the sound as-is and think I would benefit with both yours and JD's suggestions...

As I am in the Broadcast Television industry, attended the NYC CCW/HD World convention today at the Javitz Center, all the CE Mfg'ers are hot on 4K, so we shall see how this plays out. Broadcast Corps are still hesitant along with Mobile Handheld Broadcasting. I guess we shall have to see how the spectrum auction goes...

Many thanks and glad I joined AVS Forum.
post #3483 of 6883
Ok I tested with ip control off hdmi control off only main zone set in trigger menu rest off

Turn the unit off and only turned on zone 2 my external amp turned on.....

Did the same with trigger 2 and trigger works as expected

I think I have a faulty trigger one input maybe it not sending 12 volts and it's not working....

Diff question regarding spl....

I did the audyssey 8 pos

Now I get my spl meter and check 75db all is 75 except the sub.....is this normal the sub us about 68db... Or so....

Denis
post #3484 of 6883
^^
The ABT chips were used with the XX10/XX11 series while beginning with the XX12 series, the Analog Devices 800X chips are used, the 8003 used with the "X" series. If the game device does not work connected to the AVR, the alternate connection would be video to TV with audio to the AVR.
post #3485 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4g View Post

Ok I tested with ip control off hdmi control off only main zone set in trigger menu rest off

Turn the unit off and only turned on zone 2 my external amp turned on.....

Did the same with trigger 2 and trigger works as expected

I think I have a faulty trigger one input maybe it not sending 12 volts and it's not working....

Diff question regarding spl....

I did the audyssey 8 pos

Now I get my spl meter and check 75db all is 75 except the sub.....is this normal the sub us about 68db... Or so....

Denis

SPL meters generally do not measure lower frequencies well, rather better to use them for relative changes in volume levels. Also note there is generally at least +/-2db error rate with SPL meters. Regardless of the actual sub volume level, there's no reason why you cannot bump up the db level of the sub using the "Sub Level" setting to suit your "preference".
post #3486 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4g View Post

Now I get my spl meter and check 75db all is 75 except the sub.....is this normal the sub us about 68db... Or so....

Denis

Like jd said, it's OK to raise the sub trim higher than what Audyssey set, and in fact, that's what many users do, including me. I have a very good Power Sound Audio XV15 sub, and I ended up raising the trim by 1.5db as well as raising the x-over points to 90hz (Audyssey set my small satellites to 40/60hz) and those small changes made a huge difference for me.

You're going to hear a lot of talk between reference and preference, but after all Audyssey is nothing more than preference, it's just Audyssey's preference....It's their room EQ model, it's their Dynamic EQ of what "we're supposed to hear at lower volumes." Don't be afraid to try small changes in sub/center/surround/x-over/distance settings with material you're familiar with to see what you like best in your room. smile.gif
post #3487 of 6883
Fellas ,

I am using Aperion 5T towers and 5C center with Denon X3000, and it's sounds little distorted when I push the master volume to 90. My question is if I go with X4000 and get Emotiva XPA 3 would it give me a better sound?
post #3488 of 6883
The AVR's are not really designed to go above reference volume level (ie. 80/0db) in order to preserve sufficient headroom for the peaks. Adding an external amp would certainly help if you prefer your audio at above reference levels.
post #3489 of 6883
^^^

I was thinking of upgrading my speakers to slightly better speakers like Verus Forte but I guess it's not going to much different going from 89db sensitivity to 90db. Will get X4000 and get Emotiva XPA 3.

Thank you.
post #3490 of 6883
Thread Starter 
10db above reference takes a LOT of power. No wonder it sounds distorted. Don't crank it that loud until you get better amplification you don't want to blow a tweeter.
post #3491 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by booga24 View Post

^^^

I was thinking of upgrading my speakers to slightly better speakers like Verus Forte but I guess it's not going to much different going from 89db sensitivity to 90db. Will get X4000 and get Emotiva XPA 3.

Thank you.

Right. You'd want at least a 3db difference in speaker sensitivity to make a real difference and also equivalent to adding the XPA-3 with your current speakers.
post #3492 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

10db above reference takes a LOT of power. No wonder it sounds distorted. Don't crank it that loud until you get better amplification you don't want to blow a tweeter.



Got u, thanks.
post #3493 of 6883
Anyone ever use Crown amps with denons? Thinking aboot adding an XLS1000 to help out my x4000.
http://www.crownaudio.com/usa/amplifiers/xls-drivecore.html
post #3494 of 6883
I've seen them before in a HT setup and they are NOISY. This is not the place to try and save a few bucks
post #3495 of 6883
Tomorrow , I am going to be a three time Denin customer . Bought a X3000 a month and a half ago , it had a bad D/A converter. I was able to take it back and updated to the x4000. Earlier this week it started kicking out., it appears to be a bad amp circuit. Luckily I have had this one less than 30 Days so it is being replaced instead of being serviced.

I am wondering if Denon was the right choice.
post #3496 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Displaced Husker View Post

Tomorrow , I am going to be a three time Denin customer . Bought a X3000 a month and a half ago , it had a bad D/A converter. I was able to take it back and updated to the x4000. Earlier this week it started kicking out., it appears to be a bad amp circuit. Luckily I have had this one less than 30 Days so it is being replaced instead of being serviced.

I am wondering if Denon was the right choice.


Yea, it definitely sucks and shakes your confidence when things like that happen. I had a similar experience with Onkyo and know how you feel. Hopefully the 3rd time is the charm!
post #3497 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

Anyone ever use Crown amps with denons? Thinking aboot adding an XLS1000 to help out my x4000.
http://www.crownaudio.com/usa/amplifiers/xls-drivecore.html

I've used the XLS2000 with my X4000 and it works beautifully. Keep in mind that the XLS1000 has a much higher noise floor than the XLS1500 and higher so it is highly recommended to use at least the XLS1500.

I've been using an XTI4000 for driving the 4 TD10X's in my towers for a few months now and they are very quiet and provide about 10x the power that the X4000 can.
post #3498 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Grooms View Post

I've seen them before in a HT setup and they are NOISY. This is not the place to try and save a few bucks

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsloms View Post

I've used the XLS2000 with my X4000 and it works beautifully. Keep in mind that the XLS1000 has a much higher noise floor than the XLS1500 and higher so it is highly recommended to use at least the XLS1500.

I've been using an XTI4000 for driving the 4 TD10X's in my towers for a few months now and they are very quiet and provide about 10x the power that the X4000 can.
Thanks, good lookin out. What would be the main differences btw that and say an emotiva xpa2 or 3?
post #3499 of 6883
^ Don't mean to be a jerk, but I don't think whether anyone has used a Crown amp with a Denon is at all relevant. The question you want to ask, in the appropriate sub-forum, is: has anyone ever used Crown amps with my (state brand) speakers? That's what matters, and where you would run into any specific issues. The Denons put out standard consumer audio levels from their pre outs IME, and cannot see or know anything about the amps that are connected to them. If they did, then that would be a problem. Pick your amps to match your speakers and your listening style/room. You should definitely use an external amp for any speakers with a nominal 4 ohm (or less...) impedance with this series of AVRs, sounds like their protection circuitry is a bit fussy.
post #3500 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post


Thanks, good lookin out. What would be the main differences btw that and say an emotiva xpa2 or 3?

The XLS series of amps is a Class D amp which is much lighter and cooler running than the old school Class AB such as the XPA2 and 3. The XLS1500 will put out about the same power as the XPA2 but will run cooler and cost about half the price. I can't vouch for the Emotiva amps as I've never used one but the XLS amps are silent amps that put out excellent power for the price. Crown makes very good stuff!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

^ Don't mean to be a jerk, but I don't think whether anyone has used a Crown amp with a Denon is at all relevant. The question you want to ask, in the appropriate sub-forum, is: has anyone ever used Crown amps with my (state brand) speakers? That's what matters, and where you would run into any specific issues. The Denons put out standard consumer audio levels from their pre outs IME, and cannot see or know anything about the amps that are connected to them. If they did, then that would be a problem. Pick your amps to match your speakers and your listening style/room. You should definitely use an external amp for any speakers with a nominal 4 ohm (or less...) impedance with this series of AVRs, sounds like their protection circuitry is a bit fussy.

You are absolutely correct. Are the speakers able to handle the extra power from a pro amp or the XPA2?

Don't worry in the least about the output levels from the X4000. The X4000 will have no issue driving the inputs to either the Emotiva or Crown amp. Mine can clip the inputs on my XTI4000 and my XLS2000 just fine.
post #3501 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsloms View Post

The XLS series of amps is a Class D amp which is much lighter and cooler running than the old school Class AB such as the XPA2 and 3. The XLS1500 will put out about the same power as the XPA2 but will run cooler and cost about half the price. I can't vouch for the Emotiva amps as I've never used one but the XLS amps are silent amps that put out excellent power for the price. Crown makes very good stuff!
You are absolutely correct. Are the speakers able to handle the extra power from a pro amp or the XPA2?

Don't worry in the least about the output levels from the X4000. The X4000 will have no issue driving the inputs to either the Emotiva or Crown amp. Mine can clip the inputs on my XTI4000 and my XLS2000 just fine.
Thanks for the help. The amp would be for MA RX8s which are 4ohm and thirsty😉
post #3502 of 6883
Couple questions concerning my X4000....
Why is it when I use the preview function and change from say fios TV to Blu Ray player, the picture appears on the TV, but there is no sound, and the Denon displays "stereo" when it's getting something other than a stereo signal? To fix, I just have to turn the receiver off and then back on, then it recognizes the signal and plays it...something to do with putting sound to the TV's (stereo only) speakers even though the receiver is supposed to output to the external speakers?

Anyone else forget to change the dynamic volume setting under Auydessy settings and wonder why the sound doesn't sound as dynamic as it should (due to dynamic volume being on by default in medium mode, unless I accidently somehow set it like that, but that doesn't sound like me...)-? kf
post #3503 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmfellows View Post

Couple questions concerning my X4000....
Why is it when I use the preview function and change from say fios TV to Blu Ray player, the picture appears on the TV, but there is no sound, and the Denon displays "stereo" when it's getting something other than a stereo signal? To fix, I just have to turn the receiver off and then back on, then it recognizes the signal and plays it...something to do with putting sound to the TV's (stereo only) speakers even though the receiver is supposed to output to the external speakers?

Hi kmfellows, not having this issue when using Instapreview. Don't know but maybe its because Zone 2 or 3 is on (sorry I don't use Zone 2 or 3)?
post #3504 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmfellows View Post

Couple questions concerning my X4000....
Why is it when I use the preview function and change from say fios TV to Blu Ray player, the picture appears on the TV, but there is no sound, and the Denon displays "stereo" when it's getting something other than a stereo signal? To fix, I just have to turn the receiver off and then back on, then it recognizes the signal and plays it...something to do with putting sound to the TV's (stereo only) speakers even though the receiver is supposed to output to the external speakers?

Anyone else forget to change the dynamic volume setting under Auydessy settings and wonder why the sound doesn't sound as dynamic as it should (due to dynamic volume being on by default in medium mode, unless I accidently somehow set it like that, but that doesn't sound like me...)-? kf

1. Perhaps an HDMI handshake issue with the TV? My X4000 will initially display Stereo when a DTS-HD MA BD is playing on the PS3, but then almost immediately changes to DTS - Neo:X and plays as expected. What audio signal is actually playing on the BDP when you get no sound?

2. The AVR asks whether you want to set this at the end of the Audyssey setup. You can respond either Yes or No. If you respond yes, it is set to "Medium" for every source which you can then change per source as desired (ON/OFF and level if ON).
Edited by jdsmoothie - 11/16/13 at 5:01am
post #3505 of 6883
Seriously considering the X-2000 to replace a dead Onkyo TX SR-608 so I have a few questions

1) Denon quality regarding HDMI boards, my Onkyo HDMI board died at 2+ years, bad quality history with Onkyo & HDMI boards that I wasn't aware of when I bought mine
2) How is the video upsacling in the X-2000? What technology are they using and what is the quality of up-converted signals?
3) Any major quality issues I should be aware with the X-2000?

Thanks
post #3506 of 6883
^^
1. No major issues, and certainly not to the extent of Onkyo. eek.gif
2. It works, but guessing that many (like myself) bypass any video processing as most TVs these days do just as good of a job.
3. Issues described in post #4 of this thread.
post #3507 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmfellows View Post

Couple questions concerning my X4000....
Why is it when I use the preview function and change from say fios TV to Blu Ray player, the picture appears on the TV, but there is no sound, and the Denon displays "stereo" when it's getting something other than a stereo signal? To fix, I just have to turn the receiver off and then back on, then it recognizes the signal and plays it...something to do with putting sound to the TV's (stereo only) speakers even though the receiver is supposed to output to the external speakers?

Anyone else forget to change the dynamic volume setting under Auydessy settings and wonder why the sound doesn't sound as dynamic as it should (due to dynamic volume being on by default in medium mode, unless I accidently somehow set it like that, but that doesn't sound like me...)-? kf

I have a similar issue when I go from watching the blu ray throught the AVR to watching the TV in pass through mode I lose the audio in the TV. My understanding is the TV can not handle the 5.1 signal. To correct it I have been switching to watching TV through the AVR or turn it off and on and all is good again.
post #3508 of 6883
^^
That is correct, although if this is something you do often, you may want to consider connecting the HDMI from the BDP directly to the TV with an optical cable from the BDP to the AVR for surround audio.
post #3509 of 6883
I don't want to turn the unit off and on unnecessarily so I switch from the watch Blu Ray activity on the harmony remote to watch TV with the AVR and then to the watch TV without the AVR and it works fine with no lose of audio.. I don't want give up Dolby true HD or DTS Master Audio..
post #3510 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post


FWIW, MediaMonkey, MPC-BE and XBMC also can provide multichannel FLACs as multichannel LPCM over HDMI from a PC with no external codecs needed.

Thanks Selden.  The PC arrived, I've installed Win 8.1 and configured the HDMI output for 5.1 and am crankin in full surround.  I'm tinkering with XBMC - a nice app.

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