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The 'Official' 2013 Denon "E Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 149

post #4441 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Thanks Arny -- assuming there is no audible hum however, is there any sound quality downside to say a 50% gain knob with -11dB trim vs. a 25% gain knob with a -2dB trim?

While I agree with what you said about sub trim level, I personally have talked to more than one manufacturer, and they recommended +3.0 to -3.0 for auto on performance, and not overdriving the signal on the positive end.

While i feel overall there is no detriment, I find it most consistent to recommend a range like -3 to +3 or -5 to +5 after speaking with people about how to use their product with Audyssey. We will jsut have to disagree there, because I think when you first use Audyssey, or install a new sub, going ahead and finding the proper gain setting for that range is easiest, then you are done. Every time I run Audyssey now after a room change, I never have to pull the monster out and get behind it, it always lands around -2db smile.gif, so then i can easily boost +4db.

Plus, why use a higher gain setting than you have to?


Hurting performance? No.

Good practice? I think so.

The other useful trick is you dont have to take all your measurements, just take the minimum and calculate and see where it set the sub. Adjust gain if needed, then repeat. Once you have the sub where you want it, run the full measurement scenario.
Edited by gadgtfreek - 12/27/13 at 12:48pm
post #4442 of 6883
Thread Starter 
I think we're on the same page; I primarly wanted to clarify that the -11dB channel trim for the sub was NOT the reason for the lack of bass. The level is still calibrated to the same SPL, and the negative trim would have zero impact on sound quality (save the apparent potential for hum noted by Arny above) or the Audyssey EQ filters.

I have heard about the caution with extreme positive trims potentially clipping the input stage the sub's amp, but extreme postiive trims are rarely encountered so I rarely mention it. The only downside I had ever heard about for an extreme negative trim was related to the consistency of the auto-on circuit performance; Arny's mention of potential for adding gain to some spurious hum is the first time I have ever heard of any legitimate potential for negative SQ.
post #4443 of 6883
I know years ago when magazines would do AVR reviews they would always note the clipping of the sub out and they always recommended -3 to -5 on the AVR sub settings to avoid clipping. Anything higher than -3db was said to clip the signal.....I don't know if the same is true on today's receivers, but it's worth noting.

I prefer to set my sub's own volume control to where Audyssey sets it at 0db, as it's easy for me to remember if I'm running a little hot, or usually, a little down (-1db) from what Audyssey found to be calibrated. The humming issue and sub auto on/off circuits are also worth noting.

My PSA XV15 requires the highest gain setting of any sub I have ever had at 1:30 to get 0db from Audyssey. Most other subs were like 10:00ish to get the same 0db, but that's because they are artificially overly sensitive in the gain department to seem more powerful to the casual user.
post #4444 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Arny's mention of potential for adding gain to some spurious hum is the first time I have ever heard of any legitimate potential for negative SQ.

I had not heard of that either!

Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

I know years ago when magazines would do AVR reviews they would always note the clipping of the sub out and they always recommended -3 to -5 on the AVR sub settings to avoid clipping. Anything higher than -3db was said to clip the signal.....I don't know if the same is true on today's receivers, but it's worth noting.

I prefer to set my sub's own volume control to where Audyssey sets it at 0db, as it's easy for me to remember if I'm running a little hot, or usually, a little down (-1db) from what Audyssey found to be calibrated. The humming issue and sub auto on/off circuits are also worth noting.

My PSA XV15 requires the highest gain setting of any sub I have ever had at 1:30 to get 0db from Audyssey. Most other subs were like 10:00ish to get the same 0db, but that's because they are artificially overly sensitive in the gain department to seem more powerful to the casual user.


Ive been running around +1 or +2 for awhile and havent noticed any issues, but I had not heard of that above. The Hsu subs have a very sensitive gain, mine has to be pretty low.
post #4445 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

To add to the above...
First, let's clear up a misconception -- there is absolutely NO need to re-run Audyssey because the subwoofer came in at -11dB. The only reason to re-run would be if the sub trim was fully "maxed out " at +/-12dB. The ONLY potential detriment to a -11 trim for the sub is if the voltage from the sub out is too low to consistently trigger the sub's auto-on circuit. If the sub's auto-on circuit is triggering consistently, then it is perfectly fine, the calibration (EQ) for the sub is unimpacted by the trim level.

The only other minor negative would be that you have limited "wiggle room" for lowering the sub volume, but in this case he would like to boost the sub so it's a non factor. If he decides he likes more bass he can simply bump the sub up from -11 to -8 or -6 or whatever.

Lowering the gain knob a bit and then re-running Audyssey so the trim comes in at, say, -3 instead of -11 would not change sound quality or output volume in any way (assuming identical mic positions of course). It certainly will NOT make the bass louder, because the sub will still be calibrated to 75dB just like all the other speakers.

So there is no need to re-run Audyssey, just some education and minor settings tweaks.
The knob on a subwoofer (or any amplifier) is ALWAYS a gain knob. It may be labeled as "Volume" to make it more understandable for the end user but it's still a gain knob. There is a difference, although it's not really relevant for this discussion. The bottom line is that the volume/gain is fine where it is, but if you choose to re-run Audyssey at a later date you might as well lower it a bit from 50% to ~30% so you get a slightly higher trim setting (although again keeping my first point above in mind, it's purely for convenience not to improve sound quality).
It's actually of consequence but it's a GOOD thing. The Audyssey guide instructions are to set the LPF dial to the max IF you can't simply bypass it. Since you have the option of bypassing the LPF completely, then those instructions aren't relevant. Simply bypass it as you have using the unfiltered input and call it a day; if you used a filtered input you would likely end up with a longer "distance" setting for the subwoofer because of the slight delay imposed by the additional (unbypassed) filter circuitry.
The LM1's are relatively small speakers, and you have a pretty nice sub, so as others have said let the sub do what it's meant to do. The subwoofer is going to reproduce the lower octaves better than the LM1's. Additionally, because you only have basic MultEQ in your receiver, the filters on the subwoofer channel are MUCH higher resolution (128x vs. only 2x, so 64 times greater resolution). Thus, by offloading additional bass to the subwoofer you gain the benefit of superior EQ filter resolution on those difficult bass frequencies. Feel free to experiment, but I would probably set them all to 100Hz and call it a day.

The reason the crossovers were different for these identical speakers is due to room acoustics. The lowest bass octaves are very sensitive to room acoustics because of the extremely long wavelengths, so they will not perform identically in the bass region when actually placed in a real room.
So now back to the original question... other than adjusting the crossover to the 90-100Hz range for the LM1's, I would not make any further adjustments until you watch a "reference" source, which is a film on DVD or Blu-ray. Music is inconsistent with how it's mastered, but a good action movie will be an appropriate test of bass performance.

So adjust the crossover, leave the sub channel trim as set by Audyssey, and then watch a good action flick. Adjust the sub level up a bit to taste as needed. As I'm sure you know from reading FAQ's, many people perceive a lack of bass after running Audyssey because the EQ filters have reduced some boomy peaks that were present pre-calibration, which may sound "loud" but are not accurate. The "flat" bass after calibration can sound a bit low when you are used to boomy uncalibrated bass. So watch some good content and find a happy place.

Then, onto music. As noted above engaged Dynamic EQ will help boost the bass, but a lot of people prefer a meatier sound with music than the flat calibration provides. So feel free again to simply bump up the subwoofer as needed, although be aware that you are unlikely to find a single setting that will work for ALL music due to the inconsistencies of recording standards. That's why using a film is a better way to judge.

 

Very informative.

 

Thanks

post #4446 of 6883
The only lingering question on my mind at the moment is about the "Bass" settings.
 
Does it make sense to use a LPF for LFE of 120 Hz with crossover set to 100 Hz on all the speakers?  I'm still relatively confused by this term but thought I'd ask.
 
Thanks again for all the help.
post #4447 of 6883
Thread Starter 
post #4448 of 6883
Anybody know how I can turn off the 24p function on my tv?

I prefer using the 24p processing in the X4000 and want the signal to remain untouched by the tv. I have a Panasonic ZT60.
post #4449 of 6883
Thread Starter 
Why don't you ask in the owner's thread for your TV?

That said, why would you want to turn it off? All the 24p function of the TV should be is altering the refresh rate to be a multiple of 24 (e.g. 72hz or 120hz) for judder-free panning. If you turn this off (and use standard 60hz refresh rate) it defeats the purpose of a 24p input signal.
post #4450 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Why don't you ask in the owner's thread for your TV?

That said, why would you want to turn it off? All the 24p function of the TV should be is altering the refresh rate to be a multiple of 24 (e.g. 72hz or 120hz) for judder-free panning. If you turn this off (and use standard 60hz refresh rate) it defeats the purpose of a 24p input signal.

Because i wanted the signal from the Denon to remain untouched. The Panasonic would be adding its own 24p mix to the chain. Wouldnt that cause instability?
post #4451 of 6883
When you send 1080p/24 into the Panasonic, you just have to pick a refresh rate or 60hz for 3:2 pulldown. You either send it 24hz, or you send it 60hz from the player. The Denon isnt going to take 60hz and convert it to 24p very well.

To be quite honest, using the Denon's and Marantz for video processing leads to issues. Just read any recent review and you'll see with video conversion on they fail certain tests. IMO, and AVR should just act as a HDMI switcher and amp or preamp, not a video processor.

The best thing you can do with 1080p/24 is send it unmolested and pick the proper 24p mode in your ZT60 menu.
post #4452 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

When you send 1080p/24 into the Panasonic, you just have to pick a refresh rate or 60hz for 3:2 pulldown. You either send it 24hz, or you send it 60hz from the player. The Denon isnt going to take 60hz and convert it to 24p very well.

To be quite honest, using the Denon's and Marantz for video processing leads to issues. Just read any recent review and you'll see with video conversion on they fail certain tests. IMO, and AVR should just act as a HDMI switcher and amp or preamp, not a video processor.

The best thing you can do with 1080p/24 is send it unmolested and pick the proper 24p mode in your ZT60 menu.

FYI,

The Denon/Marantz top end receivers received top marks for its video processing

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/marantz-sr7008-av-receiver-test-bench

"Video Test Bench
It’s rare for a product to pass all of our video tests, but the Marantz SR7008 did. Its upconversion quality from 480i and 1080i to 1080p was excellent, as was its performance on direct pass-through of a 1080p source (the clipping and resolution tests) "


But im curious.....Isnt the purpose of 24p processing in the Denon to avoid poor 24p processing in the tv? ie Judder and instability in edges

As for the refresh rate, I dont think the Denon has an affect here? Does it? The reason why I ask is because when I select 1080p 24p and turn my ps3 on go through the menu, the movement is extremely slow and studdery so I assumed this was a result of the 24fps processing isnt high enough to create a seamless transition between icons. In fact playing a movie from netflix or my saved videos on the ps3 they all play back with a film-like feel

So i dont know what is happening then
Edited by music_to_my_ear - 12/27/13 at 4:35pm
post #4453 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post

The Denon/Marantz top end receivers received top marks for its video processing

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/marantz-sr7008-av-receiver-test-bench

"Video Test Bench
It’s rare for a product to pass all of our video tests, but the Marantz SR7008 did. Its upconversion quality from 480i and 1080i to 1080p was excellent, as was its performance on direct pass-through of a 1080p source (the clipping and resolution tests) "

Well, Id suggest someone check unless the model has been reviewed. Ill be checking the X4000 Monday night of course. For example, the 1913 fails some, but the 2313 does not. The SR7007 passes with flying colors, but the SR6007 does not.

Hopefully Ill be able to actually use the overlay menu now, but Ive refused to cut Video Conversion on if it was clipping chroma resolution. I never use IP scaler because I do not have the need, and found issues with older models.
post #4454 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

Well, Id suggest someone check unless the model has been reviewed. Ill be checking the X4000 Monday night of course. For example, the 1913 fails some, but the 2313 does not. The SR7007 passes with flying colors, but the SR6007 does not.

Hopefully Ill be able to actually use the overlay menu now, but Ive refused to cut Video Conversion on if it was clipping chroma resolution. I never use IP scaler because I do not have the need, and found issues with older models.

The Denon X4000 and the Marantz 7008 are essentially the same but the marantz has slightly better audio components from what ive been told
post #4455 of 6883
Kinda what I read. Ill confirm with Spears and Munsil Monday what happens when Video Conversion is on. It looks though, with recent results, they may have fixed that chroma problem.
post #4456 of 6883
Networking question:

I have several AV components sharing a D-Link gigabit network switch that is connected via ethernet to my router, which is in another room. I have two NAS drives that are connected to the router: a WD MyBook World Edition running TwonkyServer; and a Synology DS712+ running Synology's Media Server.

My Denon X4000 sees that WD MyBook just fine. It does not see the Synology NAS unless I do something like stop and then restart the media server package. Apparently restarting Media Server causes the NAS to better advertise itself on the Network or something.

If I bypass the switch and run the ethernet cable straight to my X4000 it sees both NAS drives just fine.

My Samsung TV sees both drives just fine when it sits behind the switch. My Samsun Blu Ray player has the same problem as the X4000.

Anyone got any guesses on this one?
post #4457 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post

Anybody know how I can turn off the 24p function on my tv?

I prefer using the 24p processing in the X4000 and want the signal to remain untouched by the tv. I have a Panasonic ZT60.


Here is what I do because I found that my X2000 does better with all video processing than my Sammy 60" LCD or my Sony BD player. I set my BD player to native resolution, and cinema conversion mode to off so that whatever is on the disc gets sent to my X2000 without any interference from Sony. Then I set the Denon X2000 as follows:

1) Video Mode Movie
2) Video Conversion ON
3) i/p Scaler HDMI (I have no other types of connections)
4) Resolution 1080p (NOT 1080p:24hz) This forces the Denon to convert the incoming 1080/24p signal native to the disc, to 1080/60p which is the native resolution of my display and no further processing is done
5) Progressive Mode Auto
6) Format 16:9

I have done hours of experimenting with all sorts of discs (S&M 1/2 being two of them) and the Denon is the best video processor in my chain.
post #4458 of 6883
I don't get why you select 1080p and not 1080p/24p....movies should be watched in 24 fps not 60.

Anyways, I see what you did but I prefer to have it set at 1080p 24p.....how do I do that without having the tv add its own processing
post #4459 of 6883
Hi.

Back again with a question about my AVR-X2000 and what I might have done wrong in setting it up. I have the following equipment connected to my X2000:

HDMI1/CBL-SAT - Dish Hopper
HDMI2/DVD - Sony Blu-Ray DVD
HDMI4/Game - Roku2-XD

All components are updated with latest versions of firmware.

In the few weeks I've had this receiver, I've mostly watched TV and everything works fine. I had previously set up the DVD player and (I think) the Roku but hadn't yet tried to watch either. Tonight I tried to watch both, but neither worked. With the DVD, I switched to the DVD input and then turned on the DVD player, I saw the Blu-Ray logo get displayed briefly then the screen went black. Nothing else. With the Roku, I was able to see my channels, go to either Netflix or Amazon to select a movie, and hit PLAY. From that point I would get audio but the screen was blank, or actually a purplish color with no real picture. These things at least tell me the basic connection works.

So far I've tried these things -
- Tried 3 different DVDs in the Blu-Ray player
- Moved the DVD player to a different TV (no AV Receiver) and confirmed it works okay
- Moved both the DVD and Roku to a different input (same results in both cases)
- Changed the X2000 output resolution from "Auto" to "1080p"
- Reset the Roku to factory default and confirmed it was configured to output 1080p.
- Moved the Roku to the CBL-SAT/HDMI1 input and confirmed the behavior was the same. (It was.)

At this point I'm assuming I've just configured something wrong, but I sure can't figure out what it is. Any suggestions as to what I might try?

thanks,

joe.
post #4460 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post

I don't get why you select 1080p and not 1080p/24p....movies should be watched in 24 fps not 60.

Anyways, I see what you did but I prefer to have it set at 1080p 24p.....how do I do that without having the tv add its own processing

The 24p conversion on my Sammy produces lip-sync issues as well as massive flickering. Letting my X2000 do the 24p conversion and sending a 1080/60p signal to my TV results in a much better picture (verified with multiple test discs) and lets the Denon do all of the video processing. As far as "movies should be watched in 24 fps not 60", I watch it in what looks best. wink.gif
post #4461 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

The 24p conversion on my Sammy produces lip-sync issues as well as massive flickering. Letting my X2000 do the 24p conversion and sending a 1080/60p signal to my TV results in a much better picture (verified with multiple test discs) and lets the Denon do all of the video processing. As far as "movies should be watched in 24 fps not 60", I watch it in what looks best. wink.gif

Thats cool. I dont know if thats a good idea but hey whatever floats your boat!

I just want a 1080/24p signal from the Denon to go straight to the tv without it being processed again by the tv...which is what Im not sure is happening. i dont know if the tv is adding its own stuff to the mix.

I tried running it in game mode and that allowed the 24p processing to be turned off on the tv and it seemed great. I didnt detect ANY judder or instability at all. I guess the best thing next to do would be to use a test disc like S and M
post #4462 of 6883
What does the 1080p/24p in the Denon actually do to a 1080p signal from a blu ray player?
post #4463 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post

What does the 1080p/24p in the Denon actually do to a 1080p signal from a blu ray player?

You only want to set the Denon to 1080/24p when you are going to feed it a 1080/24p signal 100% of the time. Otherwise, keep it set to Auto so it can process the signal as it receives it and pass it to the TV.

You can't force the Denon into 1080/24p and feed it 1080/60p like you did when you were complaining about your Sony's menu (which was in 1080/60p)
post #4464 of 6883
Just purchased the E-300 over the X1000 (only need 5.1, don't really care for the applications as I have them through blu-ray, etc), although I showed up expecting to purchase X1000. The big debate was the watts per channel and the level Audyssey. Left to my own devices I probably would have gone with the X1000 at $449.00 but my wife was with me and basically said for $275.00 vs. $449.00 you don't need 5 more watts per, Audyssey XT, and 1 more year on warranty. The biggie for me was Audyssey because its knew to me...Im upgrading from a 2000 Integera dtr 5.1 so never had the capability.

WOW! The sound is amazing compared! Even my wife was taken aback. Is the X1000 worth $170 more? I have until Jan. 15 to decide this but have no real way to do so but turn to you, so what do you think? Both wife and self are teachers (just to give you a budget idea--but I could afford the $449 if its really THAT much better). We have a Pioneer Kuro 141FD Moinitor (got it for a steal!)--calibrated by D-Nice, Panasonic DMP-BD85 Blu Ray, XBOX 360 (rarely used), DirecTV, Atlantic Technology 171 5.1 System purchased in 2000 along with the receiver.
post #4465 of 6883
^^
At MSRP the X1000 is only $50 more than the E300 which at that price difference makes the X1000 the much better buy with the added year of warranty and better version of Audyssey. At $170 more, maybe not so much so, especially if you don't see yourself using the additional features of the X1000 (eg. Zone 2 pre-outs to speakers on a deck, patio, office, bedroom, etc.). The additional wattage is a moot point and not to be a determining factor. Also note that if you purchased with a credit card, your card issuer may add a 3rd year of warranty to the E300 2 year warranty (Amex will for sure as will some MC/Visa too).
post #4466 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by lexort View Post

Hi.

Back again with a question about my AVR-X2000 and what I might have done wrong in setting it up. I have the following equipment connected to my X2000:

HDMI1/CBL-SAT - Dish Hopper
HDMI2/DVD - Sony Blu-Ray DVD
HDMI4/Game - Roku2-XD

All components are updated with latest versions of firmware.

In the few weeks I've had this receiver, I've mostly watched TV and everything works fine. I had previously set up the DVD player and (I think) the Roku but hadn't yet tried to watch either. Tonight I tried to watch both, but neither worked. With the DVD, I switched to the DVD input and then turned on the DVD player, I saw the Blu-Ray logo get displayed briefly then the screen went black. Nothing else. With the Roku, I was able to see my channels, go to either Netflix or Amazon to select a movie, and hit PLAY. From that point I would get audio but the screen was blank, or actually a purplish color with no real picture. These things at least tell me the basic connection works.

So far I've tried these things -
- Tried 3 different DVDs in the Blu-Ray player
- Moved the DVD player to a different TV (no AV Receiver) and confirmed it works okay
- Moved both the DVD and Roku to a different input (same results in both cases)
- Changed the X2000 output resolution from "Auto" to "1080p"
- Reset the Roku to factory default and confirmed it was configured to output 1080p.
- Moved the Roku to the CBL-SAT/HDMI1 input and confirmed the behavior was the same. (It was.)

At this point I'm assuming I've just configured something wrong, but I sure can't figure out what it is. Any suggestions as to what I might try?

thanks,

joe.

Yup ... try changing out your HDMI cables as well as resetting the microprocessor (post #5 of this thread).
post #4467 of 6883
Quote:
Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post

I don't get why you select 1080p and not 1080p/24p....movies should be watched in 24 fps not 60.

Anyways, I see what you did but I prefer to have it set at 1080p 24p.....how do I do that without having the tv add its own processing

I still do not know what you mean by the tv not doing its own processing.

If you send 24p into a panny plasma, you have to choose a 24p mode. One is 60hz, which does 3:2 pulldown, then you have the "hz" selections for refresh rate. Thats not really processing 24p in a sense, but you cant display straight 24hz, has to be a multiple (48/96/etc...)

I personally send 1080p/24 out of my Oppo, turn off processing in the AVR, and have my VT50 set on 96hz 24p mode. Also turn motion smoother off.
post #4468 of 6883
To expand slightly on what JD wrote: TV stations transmit at 1080i. BD players usually send 1080p, which uses twice the bitrate. Make sure all of your HDMI cables are certified "High Speed". "Standard Speed" cables are only required to be able to carry 1080i signals. They often "smear" higher bitrates, making them difficult or impossible to be detected by the TV.
post #4469 of 6883
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post

I don't get why you select 1080p and not 1080p/24p....movies should be watched in 24 fps not 60.

Anyways, I see what you did but I prefer to have it set at 1080p 24p.....how do I do that without having the tv add its own processing

With all due respect you seem to be deeply confused about this. It's very difficult to help as you seem to be in a muddle about what is happening and not explaining yourself clearly.

What is this "processing" that the tv does that you are trying to avoid?? Are you talking about refresh rate or something else?

And what processing are you having the receiver do first? If the 24p is coming straight off the Blu-ray Disc thr receiver doesn't have to do anything, it's already 24p when it comes in. So are you converting non 24hz signals into 1080p/24 output?
post #4470 of 6883
Just got a X4000 for $450 (through an insider hook-up, new and not a refurb) to replace a 7 year old Onkyo TX-SR803 that was starting to die. I am fully satisfied with the X4000, especially how good Audyessy XT32 makes my home theater sound now. It is leaps and bounds better than the older Audyessy that came with my Onkyo. Airplay is an awesome feature since we are a iPad/iPhone household. Setup was easy and the settings menus are well laid out. The remote actually is pretty good too, much better than the current Onkyo ones that seem cheap.

I would recommend the X4000 over the NR929 based on brand reliability, better warranty, better customer service in general. I can live without THX sound modes.
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