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my two channel build..for critical listen..and home theater.. - Page 2

post #31 of 83
I would highly suggest trying out the EOS offerings. I am currently using the 12" version and it is something to behold.

Point source, constant directivity is what we are aiming for with horn builds. The combination of these two and the ability to play the crazy dynamic mixes of movies is accomplished buch better through horn builds, and it takes less amp power to make it happen to boot. IF you are listening at 80dB music casually, I see no point either, but with 105dB peaks seen in movie soundtracks when played pretty loud, you certainly would benefit from a horn design. I don't want to start that fight on PT's thread though. It is just different strokes for different folks type of deal biggrin.gif
post #32 of 83
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post

So much for asking you why you didn't pick that lol. EOS8 is only a dollar more too.
It seems interesting to build one and for only probably 500 dollars I could get a pair that would trash my Polk Monitor 70 Series 2 (And I wouldn't have to wait for these god forsaken replacement tweeters), but I love having a tower. I wouldn't even know what to do if I got these speakers built. But for DIY it seems it's either this, or venture off into designing my own and I highly doubt I could do that lol. I hope he makes a tower build soon that uses multiple drivers or just a tower version of these speakers. It'd be extremely heavy though I guess if it was a tower version with 12 or 15 inch drivers lol.

...am i too just did this build to replace my polk audio RT-600's.. well i can safely say that i am very happy ..after i got done with calibrating..i sat down and began some listen test of the towers..in 2 channel
listen they are very good the first improvement..was in the low end ..mids and highs are just right .. imaging..is a lot more pronounce..dead on axis ...bass is tight and punchy ...my one gripe ..is now i may need a power amp..to drive these properly ...
post #33 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by pioneertop View Post

...am i too just did this build to replace my polk audio RT-600's.. well i can safely say that i am very happy ..after i got done with calibrating..i sat down and began some listen test of the towers..in 2 channel
listen they are very good the first improvement..was in the low end ..mids and highs are just right .. imaging..is a lot more pronounce..dead on axis ...bass is tight and punchy ...my one gripe ..is now i may need a power amp..to drive these properly ...

Haha, well I got the Crown XLS 1500. I was driving my Polk Monitor 70s hard and I've blown two sets of tweeters. Only thing I can think of is that I clipping the receiver and tweeters didn't respond well too it.. My Crown XLS 1500 has gotten to the light before clipping (never clipped), so I'm guessing my poor little HT-RC360 definitely wasn't enjoying powering my Monitor 70s, not to mention my surrounds. Needless to say, I'll never run my speakers again without power amplifiers. I bought the Onkyo 709 so I'd have a lot of money for power amplifiers. Seeing as how I can't justify paying 300+ dollars JUST for audessy XT32 (over XT) and how the 717 removed Audessy XT and replaced it with 2EQ, I thought it was the sweet spot in price to performance. 300 dollars for an AVR with preouts is a steal for me.
I plan on adding another power amp for my subwoofer as well. I saw some power amps in my fraternity's shed at school, no one seems to be using them, might just use those to power my surrounds lol. Two Crest Amps just sitting there neglected frown.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I would highly suggest trying out the EOS offerings. I am currently using the 12" version and it is something to behold.

Point source, constant directivity is what we are aiming for with horn builds. The combination of these two and the ability to play the crazy dynamic mixes of movies is accomplished buch better through horn builds, and it takes less amp power to make it happen to boot. IF you are listening at 80dB music casually, I see no point either, but with 105dB peaks seen in movie soundtracks when played pretty loud, you certainly would benefit from a horn design. I don't want to start that fight on PT's thread though. It is just different strokes for different folks type of deal biggrin.gif

I regularly listen to music extremely loud so a horn build that could get really loud is definitely helpful. This is probably what I should have gotten at first but everyone INSISTED, that the Monitor 70s would be more than loud enough and that an AVR would power them easily. Considering RF-7s are my dream speaker, and cost 2 grand a pair, this is definitely something I'll look into, and probably undertake over the summer. I hope I get the same performance out of what I build compared to an Klipsch's RF-7s
post #34 of 83
Tential, for $1000 you could get a LCR setup that would wipe the floor with the RF7 if you are willing to get your hands a little dusty biggrin.gif The RF-7 is certainly a great speaker, but there is a big markup you can skip on any commercial offering if you build it all out yourself biggrin.gif
post #35 of 83
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Tential, for $1000 you could get a LCR setup that would wipe the floor with the RF7 if you are willing to get your hands a little dusty biggrin.gif The RF-7 is certainly a great speaker, but there is a big markup you can skip on any commercial offering if you build it all out yourself biggrin.gif
agreed..well said...when i was ready to up grade ..i was looking at the B&W's cm..but the best price i got ..was 3k ..my wife would kill me if i would have bought them..so the concept of building my own came to mind..i know it takes so hard work..but when you done its well worth the effort.. knowing that you did it ...
post #36 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by pioneertop View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Tential, for $1000 you could get a LCR setup that would wipe the floor with the RF7 if you are willing to get your hands a little dusty biggrin.gif The RF-7 is certainly a great speaker, but there is a big markup you can skip on any commercial offering if you build it all out yourself biggrin.gif
agreed..well said...when i was ready to up grade ..i was looking at the B&W's cm..but the best price i got ..was 3k ..my wife would kill me if i would have bought them..so the concept of building my own came to mind..i know it takes so hard work..but when you done its well worth the effort.. knowing that you did it ...

THAT ^^^^^ is why I do it all. You can imagine when I give someone a demo and after they are blown away, they ask where I got all my stuff and I respond by saying that I built them all out myself smile.gif For that reason alone it will be difficult to EVER go back to a commercial offering. Only when I am too old to go it on my own perhaps... I can confidently say that my SEOS12 build can compete with commercial offerings that are 5x the cost and in most to all cases best them in just about every area. It took me a grand total of $1000 to do all front 3 speakers and then a little additional for wood and finishing.
post #37 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

THAT ^^^^^ is why I do it all. You can imagine when I give someone a demo and after they are blown away, they ask where I got all my stuff and I respond by saying that I built them all out myself smile.gif For that reason alone it will be difficult to EVER go back to a commercial offering. Only when I am too old to go it on my own perhaps... I can confidently say that my SEOS12 build can compete with commercial offerings that are 5x the cost and in most to all cases best them in just about every area. It took me a grand total of $1000 to do all front 3 speakers and then a little additional for wood and finishing.

1000 isn't much at all for L./C/R I agree, I love the feel of having something you put together yourself. I hate having what everyone else has. Having something unique is a bonus for me. My whole setup,is somewhat unique given the fact that I'm 23 and I'm in college so very few people have a remotely decent 2.1 setup, AVR, Power Amp, and 70 inch TV but of course, with any hobby I start I knew it was going to end with me building things.

I still have to purchase the Behringer Amp (or Crown XLS), to power my new subwoofer I'm building, a server (they have those 24 bay servers from tamsolutions for like 400 shipped), the actual Ultimax driver, and some supplies, before I can even start building these L/C/R. Only 1000 dollars though.

Besides, no place offers Deep Red Gloss finishes on speakers so being able to make something that is basically decorating my room, exactly the way I want it to look is the most satisfying part of DIY.

Wish I could have been building my Sub right now, since all the cuts are done, but of course my friends are being lazy with clamps so the only thing I can do right now is organize my library for XBMC lol. At least I'm getting something done though.
post #38 of 83
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post

1000 isn't much at all for L./C/R I agree, I love the feel of having something you put together yourself. I hate having what everyone else has. Having something unique is a bonus for me. My whole setup,is somewhat unique given the fact that I'm 23 and I'm in college so very few people have a remotely decent 2.1 setup, AVR, Power Amp, and 70 inch TV but of course, with any hobby I start I knew it was going to end with me building things.

I still have to purchase the Behringer Amp (or Crown XLS), to power my new subwoofer I'm building, a server (they have those 24 bay servers from tamsolutions for like 400 shipped), the actual Ultimax driver, and some supplies, before I can even start building these L/C/R. Only 1000 dollars though.

Besides, no place offers Deep Red Gloss finishes on speakers so being able to make something that is basically decorating my room, exactly the way I want it to look is the most satisfying part of DIY.

Wish I could have been building my Sub right now, since all the cuts are done, but of course my friends are being lazy with clamps so the only thing I can do right now is organize my library for XBMC lol. At least I'm getting something done though.
biggrin.gif
post #39 of 83
What are the T/S specs on the BMB drivers? Have a link to the manufacturer?
post #40 of 83
Thread Starter 
bmb..

Specifications
Brand BMB
Model 6801
Nominal Impedance(ohms) 8
Power Handling RMS(Watts) 50
Power handling Peak(Watts) 100
Usable Frequency Range(Hz) 2.2K - 20K
Sensitivity(dB) 91
Magnet Weight(oz) 10
Sheilded Magnet No
Voice Coil Diameter 1
Magnet Composition Ceramic
Faceplate Materials Plastic
Cone/Dome Composition Cloth
Surround Composition Cloth
Thiele & Small Parameters
Mounting Information
Overall Diameter 5.25
Baffle Hole Diameter 3.5
Magnet Diameter 3
Bolt Circle Diameter 4.6875
Depth 1.4375
Mount Depth 1.25...

woofer..THIELE-SMALL PARAMETERS
Resonant Frequency (Fs) 46 Hz
DC Resistance (Re) 7.4 ohms
Voice Coil Inductance (Le) 0.41 mH
Mechanical Q (Qms) 3.20
Electromagnetic Q (Qes) 0.41
Total Q (Qts) 0.36
Compliance Equivalent Volume (Vas) 0.77 ft.³
Mechanical Compliance of Suspension (Cms) 0.76 mm/N
BL Product (BL) 8.47 Tm
Diaphragm Mass Inc. Airload (Mms) 15.94g
Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax) 5.34 mm
Surface Area of Cone (Sd) 143.1 cm²
Power: 100 Watts
Frame Dimensions: 7 1/2" X 6 1/2"
Mounting Depth: 3 1/8"
Surround Material: Rubber
Cone Material: Paper with Kevlar
post #41 of 83
How'd you model these speakers since I don't see any build that is similar to it on here? Most people just do the already given builds with EricH's stuff, so when looking through it was hard to get inspiration for something different.

Speaker design is so much more confusing I just don't even know where to get started reading about stuff.
post #42 of 83
Thanks PT. Where'd you get them? Googling doesn't find much except for karaoke speakers with the same name.
post #43 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post

Most people just do the already given builds with EricH's stuff, so when looking through it was hard to get inspiration for something different.

Speaker design is so much more confusing I just don't even know where to get started reading about stuff.
Most people effectively build kits because it is beyond their ability to design from scratch at the moment. Most could learn easily enough if they wanted to, but most people it seems enjoy the building and don't want or feel the ned to dedicate the time to learn, which includes building prototypes that may not achieve the desired performance.

If you want to do something different, start a thread with your proposed design and performance goals, and the more experienced people here will point out the positives and the follies of your design.
post #44 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Most people effectively build kits because it is beyond their ability to design from scratch at the moment. Most could learn easily enough if they wanted to, but most people it seems enjoy the building and don't want or feel the ned to dedicate the time to learn, which includes building prototypes that may not achieve the desired performance.

If you want to do something different, start a thread with your proposed design and performance goals, and the more experienced people here will point out the positives and the follies of your design.

That's why I was asking the OP how he modeled them/got the build. Wondering how he started to get that information since I can't seem to find it.
post #45 of 83
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Thanks PT. Where'd you get them? Googling doesn't find much except for karaoke speakers with the same name.
..kool i called the guy today..i'll pm you with some info ...
post #46 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post

That's why I was asking the OP how he modeled them/got the build. Wondering how he started to get that information since I can't seem to find it.
Most of the detail of speaker design is not written down in one place; you just have to pick it up as you go.

Can't speak for the OP, but as the form factor seemed to be a large part of the design, here is basically how I would go about the design.

How wide and deep can it be? This will determine potential LF driver and baffle step. How loud and low do I want it to go? That will determine some LF parameters.
Is it to be 3 way or 2.5 way? 2.5 way makes no sense to me, so 3 way it is.
Do I want some amount of controlled directivity? If so, how low? That will determine potential waveguides and drivers for it.
If no CD desired, which HF driver? Which MR driver to partner with it? What are the design compromises pairing these two?
How low will the MR driver play well at volume? Will this match up the the chosen LF driver? If LF driver not chosen, which will work in the available encl volume available for desired tuning and easily meet the bottom of the MR driver's passband with low distortion?
What are the expected H and V polar patterns of the inital design? Is this adequate?

If using a passive xover, can they be integrated without too many compromises? Do any of the drivers have special needs, such as a requirement for conjugates to flatten Z curve or notch out a peak? What about relative driver sensitivities?

These are some of the things I would consider when designing. There would likely be several iterations as issues were found and compromises selected.
post #47 of 83
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post

How'd you model these speakers since I don't see any build that is similar to it on here? Most people just do the already given builds with EricH's stuff, so when looking through it was hard to get inspiration for something different.

Speaker design is so much more confusing I just don't even know where to get started reading about stuff.
well let me see..am when it came to the design , its nothing.. new towers have being around for sometime now..(the center and surrounds) build coming soon as i get some funds in...
now inspiration ..came form wanting better sound then what i had..polk audio RT600's...i wanted a more accurate sound ..full range.. to be honest , i have always love the look of towers and with the limited ..space and not to mention budget.. i just cant spend that kind of money on my hobby... so i went with that design ...now when it comes to performance.and accuracy..of your chosen ..design thats where things can get tricky ...but its really not that hard...1st choose..your design..2nd choosing your components..now you will need some knowledge of speaker building ..and wood work...am not sure if you can but you need to know how to read and understand driver parameters..eg T/S.. Vas..Qts and so on...i can go on ..but in short ..A9X-308 said the best thing ...start some tread and lets start you build ..biggrin.gif
Edited by pioneertop - 4/3/13 at 7:36am
post #48 of 83
To be honest I find your speakers harsh on my ears.
I find they have tipped up highs, congested mids, and almost no bass.

(At least via youtube / your camera.)
I think you could solve a lot of that by changing out your electronics with something beefier, and having room treatments. Preferably a dedicated room, so as not to impede on the aesthetics of the living area.



For comparison (for whatever it's worth), here is an assortment of various random tunes played through my system.
(I recommend headphones for evaluation purposes. Is best usually.)

It's not really a fair comparison at all; yours is a starter-system and I think I spent $12000 just on room-treatments, power filtering, and wires alone. Even then, I would consider my stuff "Mid-Fi" as far as "High-End" goes...
I don't know, maybe you can use these as a litmus guide for future upgrades or something? Or not, hehe biggrin.gif
-My 2 cents











post #49 of 83
Comparing SQ via youtube clips is idiocy of the highest order.
post #50 of 83
Pioneertop, what programs did you use to design your speakers?
I'm interested to know how you chose those drivers, how you simulated the response, and how the crossover and cabinets were designed.

Beautiful speakers, very clean build, btw.
post #51 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Comparing SQ via youtube clips is idiocy of the highest order.

Yeah, BassThatHz is aware of that but he couldn't resist bragging about how much money he has in his gear and at the same time he found an opportunity to hock his youtube video's.

Al
post #52 of 83
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

To be honest....the video was never design to evaluate ..Sound Quality thats impossible...over youtube... the intent of the video,..is just to encourage creativity..and passion for audio...to encourage the guys out there ..to go for it with a ( limited budget...and space ) they can build something they can be proud of ..and at the same time sounding pretty good ..now your point.about the audio of the video is true...its a five year old camera ...the speakers themselves..in my living room.sound really good ..acoustic treatment is needed definitely...buts thats a topic for another time and forum..
post #53 of 83
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

Pioneertop, what programs did you use to design your speakers?
I'm interested to know how you chose those drivers, how you simulated the response, and how the crossover and cabinets were designed.

Beautiful speakers, very clean build, btw.
the drivers were chosen ..for the T/S ..and price..if i had the means ..i mean money ..i would have gone with something like ..Morel Supreme SCW 636 6" Woofer..and matching tweeters..but @ 350.00+ per unit ..no way !!!! so i went with the bmb's ..now when it came to the design and simulation this book ( Designing/Building Speaker Systems 4th Edition Book) i bought years ago ..and it is a big help..... thanks again yelnatsch517..bless...
post #54 of 83
Thread Starter 
biggrin.gif
post #55 of 83
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angler55 View Post

Yeah, BassThatHz is aware of that but he couldn't resist bragging about how much money he has in his gear and at the same time he found an opportunity to hock his youtube video's.

Al
biggrin.gif
post #56 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by pioneertop View Post

the drivers were chosen ..for the T/S ..and price..if i had the means ..i mean money ..i would have gone with something like ..Morel Supreme SCW 636 6" Woofer..and matching tweeters..but @ 350.00+ per unit ..no way !!!! so i went with the bmb's ..now when it came to the design and simulation this book ( Designing/Building Speaker Systems 4th Edition Book) i bought years ago ..and it is a big help..... thanks again yelnatsch517..bless...

Oh wow. I thought you used some software to do the simulation and modeling.
Major props to you for doing it all old school!
post #57 of 83
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

Oh wow. I thought you used some software to do the simulation and modeling.
Major props to you for doing it all old school!
lol..days with a pad and calculator..hehehe....
post #58 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Comparing SQ via youtube clips is idiocy of the highest order.

Ok so help me understand then...

Using your viewpoint but taking it just one small step further, so then... all attempts of enjoying playback of recorded sound is idiocy of the highest order? But yet, their are countless music videos with over 100 million views on youtube (because millions of people are idiots, and didn't actually enjoy it, to any degree?). rolleyes.gif

I personally think even CD quality is bad/insufficient in many many cases (or most every song is very very poorly mixed), not just mp3 and youtube, I need something better for my system (24/192 is far more ideal IMO).

But yeah, it is probably not the BEST method (to say the least), as if that wasn't super obvious as-is.

So do you rather suggest that I buy everyone airplane tickets to my house and work around their's and my daily life? Or how-else can it be shared/experienced, if not via an online video? confused.gif

Clearly, it's the only effective method, beyond driving distances.
I live in the Okanogan mountain range, good luck trying to get to my theater cheaply via any physical method. Ain't happenin'
There is probably only 1 member within 300 radial miles of me, for starters.

So how can it be done? (It can't).

At first the internet was text-only, and then there was images, and then there was video. You'll just have to adapt to it, because the technology it isn't reverting back any time soon.

Next it will be 3D, and then smell-o-vision, and then finally direct brain-interconnects.
Until then, I will continue to wait for a better/more-economic solution to be made.
Perhaps solar-powered-space-orbital-flying- cars or something?
Edited by BassThatHz - 4/4/13 at 10:11pm
post #59 of 83
Them speakers got purty lips. Nice work.
post #60 of 83
BTH,

I have followed a lot of your build threads and admire what you've accomplished.

That being said, I think it's in poor taste to come on someone else build thread and first off insult them (via listening impressions over the internet of all things), and then go on to turn the thread into your own personal shameless plug session.

You are proud of your setup, we get that; but leave it where it belongs, in your own personal build thread. wink.gif
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