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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › So does Denon pretty much suck now? And I thought I was cool that I had something kinda high end 5 years ago. It can't even handle my speakers lol
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So does Denon pretty much suck now? And I thought I was cool that I had something kinda high end... - Page 3

post #61 of 81
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post


I always viewed it like cars. The 2013 cars are released in 2012, but are still 2013 cars. Denon does the same thing, at least their numbering convention appears to show they do. Do they actually call the xx13 their 2012 lineup somewhere? (I am asking because I do not know if they do).

well than you are kinda viewing it wrong because every single car that was made in the year it came out, was actually made that last summer. You can find this info on your drivers side door panel where it says mfg date. So if you bought a car in summer 2013(which obv it is still a 2013). It was made in summer 2012. If you buy a car in Dec 2013 you might have a small chance at getting one made in that summer of 2013 but its not likely you have a better chance getting the one made in summer 2012 if they have the stock or end of summer 2012. I honestly think its cause they are all tested not sure why this is done but most cars especially new models are always made in the spring and summer more often than any other months, but not like it matters cause the years of cars are the official years used by everyone its just they were made earlier.
post #62 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post


I always viewed it like cars. The 2013 cars are released in 2012, but are still 2013 cars. Denon does the same thing, at least their numbering convention appears to show they do. Do they actually call the xx13 their 2012 lineup somewhere? (I am asking because I do not know if they do).

Moot point as the new naming convention no longer relates to the year. smile.gif
post #63 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Moot point as the new naming convention no longer relates to the year. smile.gif

When did they stop doing it? Was it recently, or am I showing my age?
post #64 of 81
With this year's 2013 models as noted in the link in my sig.
post #65 of 81
New AVRs from Denon are announced in (2) groups to the North American market.
Group #1 (SRP <$999) is announced @ WCES (January) to the mass market/big box sellers
Group #2 (SRP >$1099) is announced @ CEDIA (September) to the installer/specialists

Group #1 is refreshed every year as their pricing is under continuous pressure/scrutnity. Group #2 is positioned higher with more installer based features such newer codecs, more Zones, advanced video so that they require more complex software. Their product development/validation cycle is longer and more complex so these models are typically refreshed every other year.

Just my 💰... 👍😉
post #66 of 81
Denon didn't show at CES 2013. The 1st group (lower models) was announced last month with the 2nd group (mid models) to be announced in May.
post #67 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

With this year's 2013 models as noted in the link in my sig.

AH, so it is something brand new. That explain why people are saying Denon is not doing what they have always done before. Thanks!
post #68 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Denon didn't show at CES 2013. The 1st group (lower models) was announced last month with the 2nd group (mid models) to be announced in May.

U are confusing introduction to the trade (distributors/dealers) and to the market.
@ the D&M hospitality suite @ WCES we were shown the new AVRs and given our cost pricing and sales programs.
Actually the new models would have been announced/shipped sooner...
Except due to weak calendar 4th qtr sales and AVR inventory buildup, Denon held back pushing the new models..

Just my 💰... 👍😉
post #69 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

U are confusing introduction to the trade (distributors/dealers) and to the market.
@ the D&M hospitality suite @ WCES we were shown the new AVRs and given our cost pricing and sales programs.
Actually the new models would have been announced/shipped sooner...
Except due to weak calendar 4th qtr sales and AVR inventory buildup, Denon held back pushing the new models..

Just my 💰... 👍😉

So when is the Denon AVR-CR6000 ( Custom Reference ) coming out?
post #70 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Lev Arn View Post

Even this 2013 sony that sells for 280$ includes banana plug jacks.

They took a major step back for 2013.

What a failure.
That Sony has MAJOR distortion in the cheap amps being used. The SQ I can assure everyone, will be miles ahead with the Denon over the Sony. Even without banana plugs. wink.gif
post #71 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

That Sony has MAJOR distortion in the cheap amps being used. The SQ I can assure everyone, will be miles ahead with the Denon over the Sony. Even without banana plugs. wink.gif

Internet FUD based on rumor and second and third hand "knowledge" no doubt.

Every major review of the newer Sony AVRs have nothing but praise for their audio quality AND video quality. They perform well in their price range and include features that most other manufacturers do not.
post #72 of 81
first change your speaker cables and see if it happens to rule out a short. it might be an impedance issue there are many speakers though rated 8 ohms may dip to 4ohms or lower at certain frequencies. I have always had good luck with Denon and found their products to be superior to Sony, Onkyo, Yamaha receivers. didn't think about the ventilation thing, if there is not enough air flow it could be over heating. especially with dynamic heavy bass movie soundtracks. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water, check those things before you ditch the receiver.
post #73 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Internet FUD based on rumor and second and third hand "knowledge" no doubt.

Every major review of the newer Sony AVRs have nothing but praise for their audio quality AND video quality. They perform well in their price range and include features that most other manufacturers do not.
Yes, for you to believe the internet FUD that the Sony being used for comparison is running a full 1/2 percent distortion compared to Denons 8 HUNDREDTH percent distortion levels. Of course, Sony is soooooooo good... rolleyes.gif
Edited by Splicer010 - 5/8/13 at 9:51am
post #74 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

Yes, for you to believe the internet FUD that the Sony being used for comparison is running a full 1/2 percent distortion compared to Denons 8 TENTHS percent distortion levels. Of course, Sony is soooooooo good... rolleyes.gif

Ummm . . . one half percent distortion is 0.5% while eight thents percent distortion is 0.8% . . . the sony number is smaller.

And those are manufacturers' ratings, which should always be taken with a grain of salt. How do the amps test in third party testing? Far more meaningful to me than manufacturer specs.

Moreover, FWIW, when Stereophile and others test amps, they typically use 1% distortion as the beginning of clipping. Because 1% distortion is inaudible. If 1% is inaudible, so are both half a percent and .8 percent.* Once distortion is inaudible, how much more inaudible it is among various equipment is not of much practical importance. As much as I'd like to have amps like Bryston that have the most vanishingly small THD and IMD results I can get, I'll save the 10 to 20 times the price and settle for amps that don't distort audibly at the listening levels I use, at least in my current economic condition.

*Interestingly, to me, I've read (havent' done the testing myself) that guitar players iwll identify a guitar amp operating at 10% (ten percent, 12 to 20 times the manufacturer spec levels for Yamaha and Denon) as "clean," i.e. undistorted. Probably says more about context than the real threshold of audibility (although Stereophile will sometimes report tube amp power at 3% distortion when they cannot meet their specs at 1%, because 3% is either inaudible or only very slightly lso (I think).
post #75 of 81
Assuming it is a quality audio amplifier and not some cheapo junker.. rolleyes.gif
If the amplifier's THD is @ 0.5% the distortion is already rising....
So as the amplifier is being pushed further and harder it is not far from total clipping with the THD% increasing to > 5-10%..

Just my $0.02.. 👍😉
post #76 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Assuming it is a quality audio amplifier and not some cheapo junker.. rolleyes.gif
If the amplifier's THD is @ 0.5% the distortion is already rising....
So as the amplifier is being pushed further and harder it is not far from total clipping with the THD% increasing to > 5-10%..

Just my $0.02.. 👍😉

I can't recall ever seeing a plot from amp testing that extended anywhere close to 10% THD But every amp in the world that is semireasonably designed will have a THD+N level that bumbles along relatively low then hits a knee and rises relatively rapidly. Every single one. If distortion is below audibility it's below audibility. Whether the amp would sound awful 10 dB louder (ten times more power) is irrelevant if you never turn it up that far, and it is true of every amp in the world that you can push it into unpleasant audible distortion.

For example, for under $60,000 you can have this amp from Dan D'Agostino formerly of Krell. http://www.stereophile.com/content/dan-dagostino-momentum-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements Makes a lot of clean power and distortion takes off like mad above the knee
post #77 of 81
I had the exact same problem the OP had - my receiver would totally shut down in the middle of a movie ( original Pirates of the Caribbean ) during a cannon shot. My receiver at the time also cost around $ 350.00 ( a JVC ).

I solved the problem by buying a much more powerful receiver. smile.gif
post #78 of 81
Let's face it... A $350 receiver will have a pretty meager amplifier. They should go back to the old power ratings from the FTC, where the amp was tested with all channels driven simulatenously. Currently, AVRs are rated with only two-channels running, sometimes at 6-ohms, inflating the power rating. Almost 3/4 of the receivers will be rated over 100-wpc with two channels. When you read reviews, the test results show otherwise. A Pioneer SC68 (rated at 140-wpc) tested to clip at ~110 watts. I remember Sonys and Denons which were rated at over 100-wpc running out of power at 25-35-wpc with all channels running.

The problem is to supply that much power, the amp needs a large power supply/transformer. A 25-lb amp will NOT have the power capacitiy as a 50-lb amp. You get what you paid for. Another issue is that a lot of speakers are rated at 4-ohms which strains a lot of amps. Many AVRs have a switch to limit the current draw on the power supply when driving 4-ohm speakers. You will be surprised at how easily it is to fry an amp now.
post #79 of 81
Quote:
Let's face it... A $350 receiver will have a pretty meager amplifier.

Amen. I have never had a receiver shut down on me since then - went to a Denon 3808, then my current Denon 4310. I can cause ear damage and pop drywall nails long before the receiver stops working.

Sometimes, you just need a bigger hammer.
post #80 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

I can't recall ever seeing a plot from amp testing that extended anywhere close to 10% THD But every amp in the world that is semireasonably designed will have a THD+N level that bumbles along relatively low then hits a knee and rises relatively rapidly. Every single one. If distortion is below audibility it's below audibility. Whether the amp would sound awful 10 dB louder (ten times more power) is irrelevant if you never turn it up that far, and it is true of every amp in the world that you can push it into unpleasant audible distortion.

For example, for under $60,000 you can have this amp from Dan D'Agostino formerly of Krell. http://www.stereophile.com/content/dan-dagostino-momentum-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements Makes a lot of clean power and distortion takes off like mad above the knee

Thats my point exactly..
A good quality amplifier typically runs around 0.05% or even less @ average listening levels..
However....
If the THD is already @ 0.5% (10x) higher it is already starting to hit the wall as the THD % will accelerate upwards....
Now one is in a very dangerous zone as serious loudspeaker damage is possible..

We have many Audio Precision plots for competitive amplifiers and AVRs run on their Cascade 2 System, and this holds true for virtually all brands...
Once the THD % increases to 0.5%-1% and the amplifier is pushed harder, its THD % will climb exponentially...
Note that this is for Class A-B, solid state amplifiers as tube amplifiers have an entirely different loading graph for THD%.

Just my $0.02... 👍😉
post #81 of 81
My bad...I meant to type the Denon as .08% and the Sony lists 0.5%...Ergo, my argument is valid. wink.gif

My original post edited to reflect as much...cool.gif
Edited by Splicer010 - 5/8/13 at 9:52am
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › So does Denon pretty much suck now? And I thought I was cool that I had something kinda high end 5 years ago. It can't even handle my speakers lol