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Need some opinions please! - Page 6

post #151 of 338
There is no proving anything. If someone doesn't understand the reality of the conflict created by bouncing sound waves in a room's acoustics, then there's no point on my part.

I made a recommendation and you countered. The reader has free choice regarding what to do with their time and what they have read.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 4/12/13 at 11:47am
post #152 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

There is no proving anything. If someone doesn't understand the reality of the conflict created by bouncing sound waves in a room's acoustics, then there's no point on my part.

I made a recommendation and you countered. The reader has free choice regarding what to do with their time and what they have read.

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Are you saying you won't post the measurements to support your claim, or that you don't know how to produce them?

Really, this is as simple as it can get to validate, so why not do it?
post #153 of 338
Find someone else to pick a fight with.
post #154 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Find someone else to pick a fight with.

It would take 10 minutes to back up your claims. Didn't seem like an unreasonable request.
post #155 of 338
Irregardless of what slope is chosen, based on what you suggest, if produced by surrounds, >80Hz content won't impact >80Hz content produced by subwoofers.

If you know that I'm wrong and you know that you're right, go with that and have a nice life.

If someone wants to run frequency sweeps, and leave the center channel and surrounds out of the measurement while using their mains, they're welcome to.

I've done sweeps with and without mains and center channel and then made separate measurements with only the center channel and only the mains and yes there was a difference. I have always done sweeps with the surrounds engaged as I didn't feel need to disconnect them due to being too lazy.

If you want to put forth the effort, take your time to play your prove it games as that's what you're doing.

I found there to be differences with mains and center channel so there's no reason to believe the surrounds are any different as all speakers are adding energy into the room and when sound waves run into each other, good and bad things can and do happen.

In our case, the position of the surrounds is locked. Their position is not going be changed so what ever energy they're adding to the room, to bad for me as the only steerage of their output that I have at my disposal is the gain control in the AVR's main menu.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 4/12/13 at 1:42pm
post #156 of 338
OK, Beeman, I get you now. smile.gif

You are not physically disconnecting the surrounds when you do sweeps, but you are still doing sweeps in "STEREO" (for measuring FL/FR/Subs) or "Dolby PLIIx" (for measuring Center/Subs) This is how I do it as well. I thought maybe you meant you were sending a full range signal to the surrounds along with all other speakers (ala "7 CH STEREO").
post #157 of 338
Thread Starter 
thanks for the advice guys! i will try doing sweeps all of the ways mentioned and see for myself what the results are. also is it recomended to get a dspeaker setup? which one do i need or does my graph look decent enough to not warrant needing it?
post #158 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

You are not physically disconnecting the surrounds when you do sweeps, but you are still doing sweeps in "STEREO" (for measuring FL/FR/Subs) or "Dolby PLIIx" (for measuring Center/Subs) This is how I do it as well. I thought maybe you meant you were sending a full range signal to the surrounds along with all other speakers (ala "7 CH STEREO").

FWIW, the system is 5.1 as opposed to 7.1 and I send a 15Hz - 150Hz frequency sweep for measurement purposes, all channels engaged.

Because of experimentally, doing sweeps on separate speakers, I found that I can steer the graph using the AVR's internal, main menu gain settings or levels if you will. But under "normal" frequency sweep conditions, I send a signal to all speakers as I find all speakers influence the final measuring graph. Doing what I suggest with the gain setting, I can evenly raise and lower the measured graph in sections like a drawbridge. I've done this with the subs and the center channel but not the surrounds. I have a nasty 65Hz hump I've been unsuccessfully trying to contend with. The next time I do measurements, if any, I'll see what impact turning down the gain has on the surrounds and this stubborn hump.

In our room, the subs have a strong even handed influence over the <55Hz range, and the center channel has a strong even handed influence over the >100Hz range. Surprisingly, overall, the mains have only a small, niggly impact over the full described range but nothing I'd characterize as a main player. As I posted, I've not engaged the surrounds to see what part of the frequency range they hold influence over as between 55Hz and 90Hz, we have a wild thing going on and maybe I'll find the problem hump lies in the sound waves the surrounds produce.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 4/12/13 at 2:36pm
post #159 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

thanks for the advice guys! i will try doing sweeps all of the ways mentioned and see for myself what the results are. also is it recomended to get a dspeaker setup? which one do i need or does my graph look decent enough to not warrant needing it?

The Antimode is a last resort, IMO. Only think about getting one if you've exhausted all other options - placement, phase and distance adjustments, room treatments, etc. - and have verified with REW or similar that work still needs to be done. Looking at your graphs, I think you'll probably be able to get +/-3db pretty easily using the "free" options. wink.gif
post #160 of 338
...+1

I'd go with seeing what you can do first as for us, our situation, we needed the intervention Anti-Mode provided.
post #161 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

The Antimode is a last resort, IMO. Only think about getting one if you've exhausted all other options - placement, phase and distance adjustments, room treatments, etc. - and have verified with REW or similar that work still needs to be done. Looking at your graphs, I think you'll probably be able to get +/-3db pretty easily using the "free" options. wink.gif

Good deal! Thanks for all the help guys!!
post #162 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

crossover set at 100hz, boths subs and mains are on, ypao eq set to through. ill try and get a waterfall. also how dow you set graph in 5db incriments for spl graph?

BTW, what does the graph look like with YPAO engaged? That would be good to see.

In my experience, YPAO can't touch Audyssey - especially XT32. Have you considered upgrading your AVR any time soon? If you have, you would benefit greatly from XT32. If you just got the Yamaha, then you'll have to find other ways to smooth your graph. wink.gif
post #163 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

BTW, what does the graph look like with YPAO engaged? That would be good to see.

In my experience, YPAO can't touch Audyssey - especially XT32. Have you considered upgrading your AVR any time soon? If you have, you would benefit greatly from XT32. If you just got the Yamaha, then you'll have to find other ways to smooth your graph. wink.gif

i literally just purchased the yamaha 3weeks ago. i should of done my resesearch more before buying, however i always liked the sound quality of yamaha avrs. i will engage ypao eq and run some sweeps.
post #164 of 338
Still within the return window by any chance?? biggrin.gif
post #165 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Still within the return window by any chance?? biggrin.gif
yes it is...why what do you recomend?
post #166 of 338
Anything with Audyssey XT (at least) or XT32. Personally, I've got a Denon but there's also Onkyo, Marantz and NAD.

The cheapest XT32 Denon is the 4311CI (2 year old model), but you can get a refurb from A4L for around $1100.

I've just got XT with my 2113ci and I paid $450 (refurb) from A4L.

To see all Audyssey receivers, click here.
post #167 of 338
You think he should return a great receiver so that he can get one with better room correction software? Even with all the tools he already has for calibration?
post #168 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

You think he should return a great receiver so that he can get one with better room correction software? Even with all the tools he already has for calibration?
i know right...man i love this yamaha rx-v773.
post #169 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Anything with Audyssey XT (at least) or XT32. Personally, I've got a Denon but there's also Onkyo, Marantz and NAD.

The cheapest XT32 Denon is the 4311CI (2 year old model), but you can get a refurb from A4L for around $1100.

I've just got XT with my 2113ci and I paid $450 (refurb) from A4L.

To see all Audyssey receivers, click here.

I think im going to stick with the yamaha...from doing research i see obviously audyssey is a much better room correction program then ypao, however you even said my graph looks pretty good and should be able to tweak it in with what tools i have. also i have listened to alot of different avr's in the past minus denon and the yamahas always seem to drive the speakers better. so why change?
post #170 of 338
Yes, your graph is looking good. Play with what you have and see what you can do to improve it and then start adding toys from there.

Never let entryway success discourage you from finding excuses to buy more toys. biggrin.gif

Maybe a miniDSP that integrates well with REW?
post #171 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Yes, your graph is looking good. Play with what you have and see what you can do to improve it and then start adding toys from there.

Never let entryway success discourage you from finding excuses to buy more toys. biggrin.gif

Maybe a miniDSP that integrates well with REW?

haha i like the sound of adding a miniDSP later if needed and keeping the yamaha...however if audyssey is really that big of a game changer then i am not toatally opposed to sending back my 773. however a 1k avr is not in the budget....i found a open box onkyo tx-nr818 with multiEQ xt32 for 699.00. so that would cost me 135.00 to make the switch. man its ugly a sin, but that does not make or break the deal.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Onkyo-TX-NR818-Open-Box-7-2-Channel-3D-Home-Theater-Receiver-/151027061996?pt=Receivers_Tuners&hash=item2329ea14ec
post #172 of 338
If you don't mind the return hassles and the chance introduced by buying "open box" adds to the equation (my understanding, One Call has a good reputation), just for the MultEQ XT32 alone, I'd jump all over that Onkyo, 818 deal, and then some.
post #173 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

If you don't mind the return hassles and the chance introduced by buying "open box" adds to the equation (my understanding, One Call has a good reputation), just for the MultEQ XT32 alone, I'd jump all over that Onkyo, 818 deal, and then some.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

If you don't mind the return hassles and the chance introduced by buying "open box" adds to the equation (my understanding, One Call has a good reputation), just for the MultEQ XT32 alone, I'd jump all over that Onkyo, 818 deal, and then some.

man you guys are killin me lol...alright im about convinced to pull the trigger.
post #174 of 338
I am not an enabler. biggrin.gif
post #175 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I am not an enabler. biggrin.gif

haha...no your just reminding me I should of done more research before buying a new avr. altough had i seen the onkyo 818 3 weeks ago for 699.00 i probably would of purchased it instead.
post #176 of 338
If you don't mind the hassle, you'll be very happy you put in the extra effort.

When I purchased our AVR (Marantz, SR-5007) last year, I didn't know about or understand the benefit of XT32 over that of XT. Now I do. Since, I have purchased an Anti-Mode, 8033S II at a cost of $450.00 where as buying a Denon, 4311ci would have cost an additional $350.00 and I would have had much better subwoofer EQ'g capability. Oh well.

If pulling the trigger, in my opinion, Yamaha apples to Onkyo apples, you'll be doing the right thing.

(okay, maybe I'm a bit enabling)
post #177 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

If you don't mind the hassle, you'll be very happy you put in the extra effort.

When I purchased our AVR (Marantz, SR-5007) last year, I didn't know about or understand the benefit of XT32 over that of XT. Now I do. Since, I have purchased an Anti-Mode, 8033S II at a cost of $450.00 where as buying a Denon, 4311ci would have cost an additional $350.00 and I would have had much better subwoofer EQ'g capability. Oh well.

If pulling the trigger, in my opinion, Yamaha apples to Onkyo apples, you'll be doing the right thing.

(okay, maybe I'm a bit enabling)

Ok appreciate your and Alanp's input!! for the little money to switch its probably a better option. especially if i end up needing some type of dsp device to finish tweaking the graph.
post #178 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Ok appreciate your and Alanp's input!! for the little money to switch its probably a better option. especially if i end up needing some type of dsp device to finish tweaking the graph.

With effort and creativity, between your brain and Audyssey's brawn, you "WILL" come up with a quality graph that makes you happy.

Here's today's effort. biggrin.gif

post #179 of 338
Thread Starter 
nice graph! i see you figured out the 80hz null!! what was the culprit?
post #180 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

nice graph! i see you figured out the 80hz null!! what was the culprit?

The center channel. Took it out back. Threw it in the Jacuzzi. Cleaned it right up.

I used Audyssey's EQ function to EQ out the little bugger.

After today's effort, my head is quite spun as I used the main menu levels control, the EQ function and the gain control on one sub to steer the graph like a drawbridge. Raising and lowering sections of the graph with each control, a few dB at a time. It was all, make a minor change in the living room, go into the office, hit measure, back to the living room, minor change, back into the office, hit measure, that sort of back-n-forth, change-n-measure type of day.

Now the rub. The overall graph is +5dB bass heavy over flat but that's how we hear bass. My natural instinct is to destroy everything, correct for the bass and start over as my brain warns me, don't be stupid.

Here's the final day's graphed effort below as I was able to EQ the whole thing to +/-6dB for an untreated room with very active (((echo))) room acoustics. Of course, out of courtesy, I ask the purists to be kind and ignore the small niggle around 350Hz.



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Edited by BeeMan458 - 4/13/13 at 1:01pm
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