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Who has the best box design plans?

post #1 of 37
Thread Starter 
The below is done in the spirit of saving money while selling assembly time to the local cabinet shop. I've already given them a heads up call and they say, bring in the design.

If I were to take plans to the local cabinet shop (no CNC capability) or the local shop with CNC capability, in your opinion, who sells the best usable plan for a ported subwoofer?

Looking for a two or three cuft box, made with one inch MDF, who's interior is well supported. All I'll need to do is drop in a driver or two (if a dual driver design) and the appropriate amplifier.

Suggestions?

Thanks in advance.
post #2 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The below is done in the spirit of saving money while selling assembly time to the local cabinet shop. I've already given them a heads up call and they say, bring in the design.

If I were to take plans to the local cabinet shop (no CNC capability) or the local shop with CNC capability, in your opinion, who sells the best usable plan for a ported subwoofer?

Looking for a two or three cuft box, made with one inch MDF, who's interior is well supported. All I'll need to do is drop in a driver or two (if a dual driver design) and the appropriate amplifier.

Suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

The enclosure is driver dependent. What driver will you be using? Once that determination is made, I would highly consider one of the CNC cut enclosures Erich has available here: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/
post #3 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by filtor1 View Post

The enclosure is driver dependent. What driver will you be using? Once that determination is made, I would highly consider one of the CNC cut enclosures Erich has available here: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/

I understand the importance of you above. Overall, I haven't a driver decided on. I'm looking for enclosure direction.

Preferably, I'd like the driver to be a fifteen inch driver. Not looking for a "HUGE" box. Of course, I'd be looking at a long throw driver; one inch plus Xmax.

What I'm needing is some guidance as to whom should I order up a design from, so I have a design to take to the cabinet shop.

In the end, the ultimate goal is a furniture grade finish, three subwoofer system, in a ported design, as small as possible, to make the wife as happy as possible, in a package that I can afford that of course, goes as deep and loud as reasonably possible.

Normal unrealistic expectations. tongue.gif

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 4/1/13 at 11:49am
post #4 of 37
Edit: Derp. Nevermind. Didn't see your "2 or 3 cu ft" requirement. Sorry.
post #5 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

...the ultimate goal is a furniture grade finish, three subwoofer system, in a ported design, as small as possible, to make the wife as happy as possible, in a package that I can afford that of course, goes as deep and loud as reasonably possible....
I understand the desire to hand off plans to your vendor. The problem is finding plans this simple, as most folks can layout a 6-sided cut sheet from scratch. It's the complex designs - horns - that need good plans. It seems to me that the following would suffice:
- build a x.x cu. ft. cube
- use 1" MDF or Baltic Birch, doubling up the baffle panel.
- put it on a 2" riser with another 2" of toe kick (optional)
- brace opposite walls with 1.5" oak dowels at >8" spacing
- line sides with 2" foam or fiberglass
- recess driver opening x.x deep, yy.y diameter with a zz.z diamter hole.

Note I didn't add a port, as that's were you can add complexity by using a slot port. While this complexity isn't a problem, you'll get a far smaller design if you go sealed.

Conversely, driver choice has a great affect on size as well. The current champion of small enclousures is the Dayton RSS390HO; 4 cu ft tuned to low 20's (4" port, 24-28" long) works quite nicely, as does a 1 cu ft sealed box (albeit with far higher F3). Loud is up to you; they're rated for 800W, but be sure the amp has no boost, and a strong SSF below 20Hz.

I know, not enough to meet your needs, and more to think about than you may have wanted... should I add that there's a great match to 4 cu ft sealed? Same F10 as ported...

HAve fun,
Frank
post #6 of 37
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the input. The subwoofer box doesn't have to be ported. It can be a two or three cubic foot sealed subwoofer as in the end, I'd like to have three subwoofers tucked into the living room decor. Three 15" subs for our open area living room, entry way, kitchen, dining room area I would expect to be sufficient capacity. I don't think our room could handle three folded horn design subs. tongue.gif

At this point I'm doing a price comparison between a vendor assembled set of boxes, with a user assembled final install of driver, insulation and amplifier.
post #7 of 37
3 klipsch rw-12d or 3 pl-200
I think you'd be better off with 3 flatpacks, although to be honest, I'd get only 2.youre just wasting that fourth channel if you get 2 amps and only 3 subs.

2 flatpacks sealed 3 cu boxes from erich, and the 2 ultimax with the behringer comes to around 900 with supplies. Not a bad deal really.

Edit: need a budget to be accurate.
post #8 of 37
Thread Starter 
I don't know enough to have a budget. That's why the need to find out about a best box design as I can budget for driver and plate amplifier and with a design in hand I can find out how much the cabinet shop would want to build three boxes.

Currently, we need a third sub to fill in a terrible null and as we're able, I'd like to replace the sub box systems we currently have. But, we need a box design so I can find out how much the boxes will be. A long throw driver like a "Dayton Audio TIT400C-4 15" Titanic Mk III Subwoofer" driver would be a good start. A driver of this type couple with a "Dayton Audio SPA500 500W Subwoofer Plate Amplifier" would provide plenty of power. If the above will work, I'll need to find out the cost of having some boxes made to fit the above appliances.

I'm trying to keep this exercise simply. Box, driver, plate amplifier. I wanted better than a Klipsch, RW-12d. If I went internet direct, I'd be looking at a SVS, PB12-NSD, or something equivalent by PSA or Rythmik. The purpose of the quest is to find out if going with vendor created boxes, coupled with off the shelf drives and amplifiers, will give us more than going with an internet direct dealer product. The maybe of the idea is hopefully coming up with better box measurements (think WAF) as opposed to the measurements of ID dealer made products.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 4/1/13 at 6:37pm
post #9 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I don't know enough to have a budget. That's why the need to find out about a best box design as I can budget for driver and plate amplifier and with a design in hand I can find out how much the cabinet shop would want to build three boxes.

Currently, I need a third sub to fill in a terrible null.

I'd say use a simple design like listed before if you're assembling and want a quote. Ask them how much for 3 cu boxes. Give them the dimensions you want that makes it 3cu ft and then see how much they charge. If it's more than 90,you might as well order a flatpacks from erich. Don't forget to include dowel bracing when you do a price comparison.
You can use a 20 by 16 by 16 for about 3cu to give them measurements for your estimate. Really hard to help for commercial offering vs diy though without a price point.
post #10 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post

Really hard to help for commercial offering vs diy though without a price point.

My apologies for not being able to give a budget. I can see pricing for a driver/amplifier combination so for us, that's a good start. The problem I see with flatpacks, I want to have the plate amp installed inside the box like a finished box one might get from a dealer. The ones I see listed on the "DIY Sound Group", their AIY flatpacks, have the backs supported so I don't think I can install a plate Amp in the back.



I could take a product like this to the cabinet shop, they could easily glue it together and give it a furniture grade finish veneer. High WAF. biggrin.gif

But the design doesn't look amplifier friendly. Or do I have to place a Behringer Amp, out in the open, on top of the box? I'd like a finished look.
Edited by BeeMan458 - 4/1/13 at 7:11pm
post #11 of 37
If you are looking for a cabinet grade finish from a cabinet shop you are probably looking at $500+ for a simple but well constructed custom cabinet. Throw in 4-500 for a plate amp and driver and you have a grand in one sub. There are a number of decent ID subs in that price range.

The Rythmik Audio complete sealed subs are strong performers and $975 for the 15" (3.5 ft^3) and $875 for the 12" (2.5 ft^3). They have cabinet plans also on their site and sell just the driver and amp but for it to be worth doing vs buying the complete sub you would need to be able to make the cabinet for less than $275.

If you go full DIY, you really need to pick a driver first and then design a cabinet to fit that driver. Each driver works best in a specific size enclosure and you could pick 6 different 15" drivers and they would all ideally require a different enclosure.

Good luck
post #12 of 37
Thread Starter 
LOL

Thanks.

I'm familiar with ID subs, not so much AIY and I don't have the facilities for a full DIY. If I'm going fix that null in the room's measurements, I'm going need a third sub. If going with AIY or a cabinet shop product furthers my understanding of subwoofers, then for this autodidact, it's a worthwhile endeavor.

FWIW, I'm hoping not to have to deal with matching Thiele Small Parameters to cabinet sizes as that's a bit too far off into the weeds at this time.
post #13 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

My apologies for not being able to give a budget. I can see pricing for a driver/amplifier combination so for us, that's a good start. The problem I see with flatpacks, I want to have the plate amp installed inside the box like a finished box one might get from a dealer. The ones I see listed on the "DIY Sound Group", their AIY flatpacks, have the backs supported so I don't think I can install a plate Amp in the back.



I could take a product like this to the cabinet shop, they could easily glue it together and give it a furniture grade finish veneer. High WAF. biggrin.gif

But the design doesn't look amplifier friendly. Or do I have to place a Behringer Amp, out in the open, on top of the box? I'd like a finished look.
You can put plate amps on the back you just make the cut. The back is left unfinished in case you want to use an amplifier. Then you just out the finish you want on the box. I'm painting mine glossy deep red! I always wanted blood red speakers / slub. You can do anything you can want with erich flatpack though. All depends on how much time and effort you want to put in. Since I have nothing to do other than school and I've cut down on drinking I got time on my hands lol.
post #14 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post

You can put plate amps on the back you just make the cut. The back is left unfinished in case you want to use an amplifier. Then you just out the finish you want on the box. I'm painting mine glossy deep red! I always wanted blood red speakers / slub. You can do anything you can want with erich flatpack though. All depends on how much time and effort you want to put in. Since I have nothing to do other than school and I've cut down on drinking I got time on my hands lol.

I like the idea of the taking the flatpack to a cabinet shop and they can assemble and finish to the wife's taste.

I left an e-mail at DIY Soung Group, asking if they can build a box to match Thiele-Small Parameters and if they can design and match customer requested exterior measurements.
post #15 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I like the idea of the taking the flatpack to a cabinet shop and they can assemble and finish to the wife's taste.

I left an e-mail at DIY Soung Group, asking if they can build a box to match Thiele-Small Parameters and if they can design and match customer requested exterior measurements.

Did you not like the box EricH has? It's specifically designed for the "best" (I should say more popular, most accepted cost to performance ratio etc.) here. It's a sealed sub you can throw anything in there. Just toss the numbers into WinISD to see how it will perform. I'm putting my 15 inch driver Ultimax into a 4 cu box. Slightly better lower extension, and bigger and more intimidating than my Klipsch sub currently. I'm hoping my new one will slowly devour the old one until there is nothing left but the little subwoofer feet.

If you simply don't like the dimensions though and need some specific dimension then well I guess you do what you gotta do.
post #16 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post

I'm hoping my new one will slowly devour the old one until there is nothing left but the little subwoofer feet.

I like that idea. biggrin.gif I'm not knocking Eric's design as I don't know anything about box design.

I'm trying to find out what my options are. If I can come up with a more WAF friendly shape or size, I'm all for making the wife happy. If I can save a couple hundred dollars in the process and end up with deeper bass and more power in the final product, I'm a happy camper. I don't mean to drive anybody crazy in the process and I'm not knocking anybody's efforts to produce and distribute budget friendly possibilities.

In our case, I'm pushing by adding a third subwoofer to the room's speaker mix. The wife is very sensitive to a bunch of speakers in "HER" living room as she's quite happy with a big screen and a pair of cordless headphones. As it is, anything above -15 on the volume and she's holding her temples with me wanting to add a separate Emotiva, XPA-5 to the mix as I'm saying, "Can't you hear the life being sucked out of the capacitors?" as the action volume climbs in intensity.

I like the idea of assembling the parts and for a few dollars less, having a better subwoofer then one might get if buying direct from SVS, PSA or Rythmik and in my opinion, these guys have great offerings. It can be a 12" or a preferable 15" driver. And if I can creep up on the cost, a driver here, a subwoofer box there, later the addition of a quality plate Amp and then pay a cabinet shop to make it all pretty, I can make this third sub happen.

Extensive room measurements have shown we have a soul sucking null in the 80Hz range which like a black hole is busy sucking the life out of the mid-bass slam and the only fix is going be either expensive, wife upsetting, room treatments (not going happen) or a third sub, maybe hidden behind a corner great chair, to fill in the null.



One thing's for sure, the wife will have trouble saying no to a graph as graphic as that graph is. tongue.gif

I've moved the subs, added an Anti-Mode, 8033S II, stuffed the subs with poly-fill and played with Audyssey until blue in the face but the null is here to stay. mad.gif Grrrrr!

(Cost of carpets, additional/larger throw rugs, curtains and/or room/wall treatments/panels would far exceed the price of an additional custom third subwoofer.)

After playing with our subwoofers for over a month, in my opinion, the above is as sweet as it's going get..........enters the need for the third sub and a WAF who prefers cordless headphones over a speaker/subwoofer system. tongue.gif

Below is the before (red line) and after (gold line) overlay graph of changes I was able to effect. Note how that null just doesn't want to go away? In my opinion, yes, a huge improvement but without aid of a third subwoofer, due to that null, I'm afraid it's "no cigar" as a reward for all the effort.



(The subs are eighteen year old Klipsch, SW-12 II's that recently have had replacement Dayton driver/radiators installed with poly-fill added to assure dampened interior resonances.)

The point of my above, I don't want anybody to think that I'm being vapid in my request and that I haven't been doing my homework before coming here to ask my question.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 4/2/13 at 6:48am
post #17 of 37
Let me guess... standard 8' ceilings? 80Hz is a 7.1' half-wavelength. Any chance you have the mic at about ear height? Does SW phase have an affect?

Have you tried moving the mic laterally? I've seen exactly this curve (flat below 40Hz, dip just above) in my room, but only in 1 of 4 locations immediately around my seating position. I discounted it, as a result. If you move the mic and it follows, you can't discount it.

I see several approaches.
- add sources (your current path)
- add tuned abosrber
- add treatment to offending surface (if present)

Given you only have one problem frequency, a tuned absorber would be worth trying. Think in terms of a SW without the driver - empty box with a port - but tuned to the problem frequency. If it's floor-ceiliing resonance we're trying to damp, this thing looks like a hassock; drum-like shape on short feet with a big hole in the bottom. 2 cu ft with a 6" port that's 2.5" long resonates at 75Hz, or 1.5 cu ft with a 6" port that's 4.5" long . It's worth a try, perhaps?

Next thought is acoustic panels suspended from the ceiling... white on white would have a degree of WAF, don't you think?

Final thought... you say you replaced drivers/passives in the Klipsch boxes. Have you close-mic'ed them to see if there might be a source issue? I'd check phase while I was at it.

Have fun,
Frank

PS Please consider other drivers than the Titanics. They have great specs, but I was warned off of them (as I now warn you) in favor of higher quality and lower distortion options, like the RSS-series (HF and HO), and the new Ultimax, which is hard to beat in sealed boxes (or very large ported ones).
Edited by fbov - 4/2/13 at 8:45am
post #18 of 37
Thread Starter 
Wow! Thanks for the response. Lots of ground covered in your above.

The room is roughly 15'x22' with a 12' cathedral ceiling.

I played extensively with the continuous phase setting of both subs, using REW to confirm best setting.

I confess. You busted me. I went lazy on close mic measurements. tongue.gif My inexperience told me I didn't need to. Being delusional has it's benefits. tongue.gif

The drivers used are what you recommended, the RSS series, Dayton Audio RSS315HFA-8 12" Reference HF Subwoofer 8 Ohm

I did move the mic laterally, over to the wife's listening position and the graph deteriorated further. frown.gif But she's a headphone type and with her headphones on, won't know she's has the poorer listening position.

Yes, the measuring mic, at the main listening position is set to ear height.

I check into room treatments. VERY low WAF and overall, I found to be surprisingly expensive. I find it cheaper and easier to hide, going with an inexpensive fill in sub.

Today, on the cheap, I ordered up a Klipsch, RW-12d (Newegg, $300.99, three day delivery) to see if a third subwoofer will fill in the sonic hole. The idea of the purchase is to see if a third subwoofer will provide the much needed relief to our sonic dilemma before going to more expensive solutions.

The idea behind the sojourn is to explore the acoustics of our room and discover how subwoofer created sound waves interact with our room's acoustics. Yes, like most here, I'm a nerd. Once I have done this, then with knowledge, in good faith, purchase better subwoofers and hopefully be able to say; "Well Nancy; I think I know what I'm doing." tongue.gif

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 4/2/13 at 9:35am
post #19 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Wow! Thanks for the response. Lots of ground covered in your above.

The room is roughly 15'x22' with a 12' cathedral ceiling.

I played extensively with the continuous phase setting of both subs, using REW to confirm best setting.

I confess. You busted me. I went lazy on close mic measurements. tongue.gif My inexperience told me I didn't need to. Being delusional has it's benefits. tongue.gif

The drivers used are what you recommended, the RSS series, Dayton Audio RSS315HFA-8 12" Reference HF Subwoofer 8 Ohm

I did move the mic laterally, over to the wife's listening position and the graph deteriorated further. frown.gif But she's a headphone type and with her headphones on, won't know she's has the poorer listening position.

Yes, the measuring mic, at the main listening position is set to ear height.

I check into room treatments. VERY low WAF and overall, I found to be surprisingly expensive. I find it cheaper and easier to hide going with an inexpensive fill in sub.

Today, on the cheap, I ordered up a Klipsch, RW-12d (Newegg, $300.99, three day delivery) to see if a third subwoofer will fill in the sonic hole. The idea of the purchase is to see if a third subwoofer will provide the much needed relief to our sonic dilemma before going to more expensive solutions.

The idea behind the sojourn is to explore the acoustics of our room and discover how subwoofer created sound waves interact with our room's acoustics. Yes, like most here, I'm a nerd. Once I have done this, then with knowledge, in good faith, purchase better subwoofers and hopefully be able to say; "Well Nancy; I think I know what I'm doing." tongue.gif

A DIY sub and the RW-12D are miles apart in performance and in cost. By the time you're done a third sub build it'll cost you aorund 500-600. Adding another sub after that will cost less as you already have the amplifier. The Klipsch RW-12D is a great performer, but if you're here the it probably own't be enough for you. I say that because I'm here and it isn't enough for me. If you're wife will accept the Klipsch RW-12D I think you're WAY overthinking the WAF. Pretty much any sub will do at that point as the Klipsch isn't highly aesthetic or anything. It fits my room well, but I got it just because I like the price point. I thought there were much more aesthetic subs out there.

Then again, I seriously don't understand the WAF. My parents buy whatever they want without consulting each other. My full tower build when I purchased it, was never questioned even though the towers are quite big compared to what my parents have (book shelf speakers), and if I changed the whole layout of my living room right now by adding 2 tower speakers, sub, and changed apperance, if I paid for it, my parents really couldn't care less. My mom would probably like it more. So I guess I'm the wrong person to talk to about WAF. I have a pretty good taste in aesthetics though so that may play a role in it.

I dunno what you're other two subs but I'd go this build if I was you (EricH Flatpacks are smaller than the Klipsch by the way).
Behringer Amplifier (better bang for buck than plate amplifier and I plate amps kinda mess with my head a l ittle)
TWO flatpacks from EricH (You haven't listed a budget so I assume the sky is the limit within reason)
Simple finish of Duratex, If you're ok with the Klipsch RW-12D you really don't need some crazy cabinet finish. It doesn't seem to me like speakers are something your wife wants to stand out, so it's probably best that they blend away.
Two Ultimax 15", flavor of the month sub. I did a bunch of models in WinISD and couldn't find better cost to performance competitors.

The size of the flatpack is smaller than a Klipsch, I think it's a little wide though to accommodate the 15 inch driver, but it's overall space taken up is .3 cubic feet smaller, destroys the Klipsch as reported by others who built this flatpack ater having this sub, doesn't deal with all the problems Klipsch RW-12Ds develop (loose ports, port chuffing, etc.

I'll never understand WAF though lol. My recommendation is to always purchase, put in the room, and see if the wife notices. Approach it like a politician. Do first, ask for forgiveness later. Has worked for our country since it's inception, can't see it stopping now.
post #20 of 37
It really just looks like your subs are 180 degrees out of phase with your speakers.
post #21 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post







-

Are these measurements of L+R+SUBS? From another thread, you mentioned you are running a 40hz crossover on your mains. If you are, then the output at 80hz is almost all coming from the main speakers and not the subs. The problem could be with your mains and not the subs, so I'm not sure how much another sub will help.

My suggestion is to measure each speaker and sub, full range, by itself, then the left + subs, right + subs and center + subs. This will show you what each source is contributing and if the problem is an integration issue. In the future, I would also suggest adding a title to all of your graphs describing what was measured and to add the legend to any graphs with multiple measurements.

-Mike
post #22 of 37
If you are looking at a 15" sub, you will never find a decent one that will work in a vented two-three cubic foot cabinet. Vented subs are roughly 30-50% larger than sealed cabinets and big subs need big cabinets.

The 12" Dayton Audio RSS315HF-8 will need to be in an 18" cube for optimum performance in a sealed design. It may look small but when you put it in a room, the sub looks pretty large. You should look at the design from Zaph Audio, it's been used by a lot of people. I have built one and it's an excellent subwoofer.

If you want to go with a smaller box, you should look at the 12" Dayton Audio RSS315HO-8. It's designed for smaller enclosures. You can find a design here from Parts Express, called "The Drake". It is designed for a 15" cube, the plans for the design is in the link. The disadvatage is that the HO sub loses a bit in LF output compared to the HF subwoofer.
post #23 of 37
Thread Starter 
Wow! That's a lot of input and ground cover. eek.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post

I thought there were much more aesthetic subs out there.

The sub was chosen because it's a performer at a giveaway price. One sub will be replaced with the RW-12d and the replaced sub will be hidden behind a chair. The RW-12d has a smaller profile then the sub that will be hidden behind a corner great chair so it will better blend with the room's decor.

Quote:
Then again, I seriously don't understand the WAF. My parents buy whatever they want without consulting each other.

It's all dependent on how each couple structures their relationship. My wife is very protective on "HER" living room. It's our living room but each personality needs to be considered. Me with my manly-man ways and her with her girlie-girl ways. It's considered rude for a manly-man to run over a girlie-girl so a manly-man "MUST" stand proudly by the side of his girlie-girl wife or it just won't work.

Quote:
The size of the flatpack is smaller than a Klipsch, I think it's a little wide though to accommodate the 15 inch driver, but it's overall space taken up is .3 cubic feet smaller, destroys the Klipsch as reported by others who built this flatpack ater having this sub, doesn't deal with all the problems Klipsch RW-12Ds develop (loose ports, port chuffing, etc.

The current goal is to correct for the 80Hz suckout.

Quote:
I'll never understand WAF though lol. My recommendation is to always purchase, put in the room, and see if the wife notices. Approach it like a politician. Do first, ask for forgiveness later. Has worked for our country since it's inception, can't see it stopping now.

If it were up to me and my politics, we'd still be living in caves in France.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

It really just looks like your subs are 180 degrees out of phase with your speakers.

Thanks for the thought. The phase settings are set asymmetrically and verified as a best case setting, according to laborious REW measurements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

Are these measurements of L+R+SUBS? From another thread, you mentioned you are running a 40hz crossover on your mains. If you are, then the output at 80hz is almost all coming from the main speakers and not the subs. The problem could be with your mains and not the subs, so I'm not sure how much another sub will help.

Thanks for the above thought Mike. The mains are set to 40Hz crossovers to they're a full octave away from the 80Hz suckout. FWIW, I tried and measued 60Hz and 80Hz crossovers and the 40Hz cross over gave the best/most stable measurement.

Quote:
I would also suggest adding a title to all of your graphs describing what was measured and to add the legend to any graphs with multiple measurements.

I'll learn how to do what you suggest and make it so. biggrin.gif

Thanks for the recommendations as for a DIY neophyte, it's a challenging endeavor, upgrading and learning much of what there is to be learned about regarding this hobby.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 4/2/13 at 10:57am
post #24 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

Are these measurements of L+R+SUBS? From another thread, you mentioned you are running a 40hz crossover on your mains. If you are, then the output at 80hz is almost all coming from the main speakers and not the subs. The problem could be with your mains and not the subs, so I'm not sure how much another sub will help.

My suggestion is to measure each speaker and sub, full range, by itself, then the left + subs, right + subs and center + subs. This will show you what each source is contributing and if the problem is an integration issue. In the future, I would also suggest adding a title to all of your graphs describing what was measured and to add the legend to any graphs with multiple measurements.

-Mike

+1 I would also state to turn off all eqing such as audyssey and antimode prior to these measurements. Also after individual sub measurements to take one of the combination of subs without speakers to see there interaction. I have read a lot of Beeman's setup, and I think it is the real issue. At one point he was setting subwoofer to physical distance instead of anywhere close to where audyssey set it. (probably has electonic delay with antimode in chain). And was leaving crossover where reciever set it. (audyssey doesn't set crossovers).

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/438840-Changing-the-cross-over-settings-after-running-Audyssey

I think proper system setup and integration by posting measurements here and taking advice would go a long way IMO. Good luck.
post #25 of 37
Thread Starter 
How rude can one get but LOL!, thank-you for the laugh.

In bluntness, there's not a "SINGLE" thing wrong with our setup and FYI, everything you mentioned, has already been done. Anybody who knows anything, understands room acoustics. Try asking before telling. My purpose is to learn about AIY, plans and using a cabinet shop to complete an idea. I'm not here to learn about integration of subwoofers into a room's acoustics.

How rude!

A third sub is on it's way.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 4/2/13 at 11:12am
post #26 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

How rude can one get but LOL!, thank-you for the laugh.

Just trying to help, not trying to be rude. Another subwoofer crossed over at 40hz will do nothing for that dip. Trying different crossovers when phase between speakers and subs off will not work. It would be best to take those measurements and start from the beginning of setup IMO. I am bowing out, as I said good luck to you and those who try to help.
post #27 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

Just trying to help, not trying to be rude.

Your choice of words succeeded because you weren't trying to be helpful but instead was purposefully trying and succeeded in being derogatory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

Another subwoofer crossed over at 40hz will do nothing for that dip. Trying different crossovers when phase between speakers and subs off will not work. It would be best to take those measurements and start from the beginning of setup IMO. I am bowing out, as I said good luck to you and those who try to help.

As I posted, the phase and crossovers have been "meticulously" checked via REW.

Multiple times the sub's locations have been checked for accuracy of placement.

The mains are crossed over, not the subs.

The sub's LPF has been checked and set so as to not create reinforcement issues and the additional third sub position, expectedly, will fill in the sonic hole as would rationally be expected.

As to starting from the beginning, I've stripped the system down countless times and many times, done everything you suggest in your above and a whole lot more. You have no idea how little you know and understand about Audyssey and how EQ'g and judicious use of a sub's parametric settings affects the interaction of subwoofers and a room's acoustics. Again, a suggestion, ask before telling and publicly insulting one's efforts with uncalled for derogatory rhetoric; rude behavior.

I didn't post the original question so someone such as yourself could come along and insult my efforts with your blarney.

People like you is why I don't like asking questions as folks like you are always lurking with your negative buzz-kill efforts.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 4/2/13 at 11:47am
post #28 of 37
I think your best bet is taking EricH's subwoofer box specs, taking that to your furniture guy, and seeing how much they charge you to create an MDF box of those specs. You could then do the bracing yourself (cut dowels slide them in and glue), or ask them to do that and again compare the prices of the boxes.

Then have them apply the proper finish to the box.

I still suggest the Behringer Amp with two DIY subs. Since you already have the RW-12D that will be your third. However, these DIY subs are going to be a lot better than the RW-12D. I found my RW-12D regularly can't handle extremely low, bass heavy tracks. I does pretty well, and was a good jump to get me started with HT, but I need more now.

My problem with plate amps is the cost of one plate amp, will be the cost of the Behringer, and if that's the case why buy 2 amps, when you can get 1 amp for the same price that powers both? Depends on the space you have though of course. I plan on tucking my amps, and receiver out of sight. If you can't, then the plate amps it is.

At this point though I feel you have to start making moves and getting pricing down so you can move forward.
First Step: Finding how much they'll charge you to build a 19 by 19 by 20 box with a 13 inch diameter cutout for the woofer (Estimates but it will give you something to compare to the FlatPack).
Once you do this, the path you take will be pretty much set.

You got to start acquiring more information though in order to narrow your choices down and I think figuring out whether you plan on having this built by someone else, or ordering a flatpack is a good first start.
Reminds me, I have to remind my friend to check out clamps from our school so I can start building mine already.
post #29 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post

I still suggest the Behringer Amp with two DIY subs.

Thanks. I like the idea of a Behringer Amp. The 1500 and 2000's have my attention.

Having this third subwoofer will allow for measuring the room with a third subwoofer present so I can physically see how a third subwoofer adds to smoothing out the room's response. Everything I've seen has shown, at minimum, a third subwoofer is the charm that sans room treatments, brings a room's acoustics all together.

Quote:
My problem with plate amps is the cost of one plate amp, will be the cost of the Behringer,...

Very good point. A point not to be discounted I might add.

Quote:
At this point though I feel you have to start making moves and getting pricing down so you can move forward.

Much harder then one realizes as at this level, there are so many different ways to go that directly affect the price of assembly in oh so many ways.

Quote:
You got to start acquiring more information ...

Agreed, hence the purpose of the question as I realize there's much more to the question then the simple. I like your suggestion about simply ordering up a flatpack and see what the presents of the flatpack offers. With flatpack in hand, I can use an existing Dayton driver and later order a Behringer amplifier; baby steps. Thanks for the encouraging ideas as the sojourn doesn't end with the purchase of the RW-12d..
post #30 of 37
There are a lot of options I agree.

First Step this is box assembly. This is before any treatments are made.

You have two options with this. EricH flatpack or Someone else make it. I suggest you get a quote from them to figure out which option works best. As long as the box is assembled with no gaps you'll be good. This is kind o why I'd recommend the flatpack. I don't really trust people who don't make subwoofers for a living to then make my subwoofer. I'd rather have the cuts done by a professional who knows what I want, and then glue it myself.

Second Step - Driver Choice

I pick the Ultimax because it's been my beoust cost to performance modeler in WinISD. I don't know what you would pick but I'd go off with this. The more expensive options weren't worth the extra money.

Third Step - Finish. (Already decided)

Since you aren't finishing the box yourself and you nee a professional looking finish this option is already decided. You need a professional finish done to the box, and it can be done to the EricH Flatpack or to the custom built box. Doesn't matter, which box you choose, the finish still has to be done by the same people so this step is already done.

Fourth Step - Amplification Choice
As already stated we looked at Plate vs Amplifier.
I know you said the EP2000 but I don't think that will have enough power to power 2 subwoofers. The RMS needed from a Klipsch RW-12D (300 rm I'm pretty sure) to something like the Ultimax (800 rms), means you'll want a beefy amplifier. An amplifier that can run 2 subwoofers to their full potential. That's the EP4000. If this is too heavy, and you're willing to spend more money, look at the XLS Drivecore series. It's what I have, the Crown XLS 1500 powers my speakers. I'd buy another Crown XLS too to power my subs but it's around 500 dollars and a 40 lb EP4000 isn't so bad for me to carry. I'm setting and forgetting it!

Once you break down each step it's not so bad since you aren't applying any finish yourself.
My order of steps in your situation would be this:
Call Furniture place and see if they'll do finishing to a box I've built.
Order 2 flatpacks
Assemble them myself (Ensures that they are assembled with no gaps and they can be assembled with masking tape and glue)
Take to furniture place for finishing
Order 2 Dayton Ultimax
Order Behringer EP4000
Order terminals for box
Install Ultimax, Wiring (Just a negative and positive wire), and terminals) (Shouldn't take more than 30 minutes tops)

And boom, two new subs perfectly finished to your liking. The hardest part isn't box assembly. I could assemble my box pretty quickly given that the cuts aren't hard to make. It's the finish that can take a long time and since someone else is doing that for you, really it can't be too bad.

Hope this breakdown helps to simplify the decision. It's really not as bad as you think though, I was overwhelmed at first but now it doesn't seem so bad at all. Building my own ported box is a whole other matter of course. I'm new to this as well so if you want to know how a first timer faired at gluing a box together to see if you could do it I can let you know how I'm doing tonight assuming my friend brings back the stuff I need.
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