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2013 Panasonic Settings/Issues Thread - Page 45

post #1321 of 3315
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Tom,

Yes, I read those posts and did not understand them at all. Maybe they meant that with default setting one mode is brighter than another. There is no dispute there. Neither of those posts included all the information needed to make clear statements to draw specific conclusions.


EDIT: Tom, are you talking about brightness as in peak output -- or the Brightness control as in setting the black level? I'm interested in the black level Brightness setting variation not peak output.


Larry

The default settings would certainly make sense, but I understood them as 'post calibration' (at least the first one). The discussion/comments that followed made it seem like the ‘Custom’ mode may be limited/restricted in some way (unlike other modes), but I don’t see any rational for that (esp. for the mode called ‘Custom’ :-)). I’ll assume all non-THX modes can be calibrated in whichever way one chooses.

I was talking about Brightness control. I’m coming to the realization that I will need to get my new 65VT60 (on the way) professionally calibrated. My approach in the past was to find a few publicly available calibrated settings (by reliable sources, and performed in a dark room), program a few under different modes, and find one that met my needs/standards. That task is very challenging with the VT60, too much variation in the settings (and apparently the sets). My original question to you was a desperate attempt to explain away the differences/variation :-). As you said, the D-Nice method may not work this time.

Thanks,
Tom
post #1322 of 3315
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Hi, rahzel. Yeah, on a second look there is a bit less green under her eyes and on her cheeks. Probably due more to turning off the "enhancements" than anything else. Definitely an improvement in the contrast ratio though.
Hair looks more natural too. Appears to be the result of a Tint adjustment.
Larry

Look at his settings, he has Tint set at 0 (default). Anyway the last thing you want to do is change tint from its default when you have a CMS like the one the VT50 has.

Color transition should be even not blotchy.

No the contrast ratio is not the best in both case's.

I can understand why folks set contrast and brightness so very high, but non the less setting that high will never give a reference quality picture.
And no I am not trying to pick apart slosvt settings, just trying to say there are many trade offs that are made when you set contrast and brightness as high as he did for his day settings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Tom,

I have also calibrated my 65VT60 in the Pro mode. With the Gamma control at 2.4 and using three different disks (AVSHD, GSD, and Ryan Masciola's), Brightness needs to be set at +5. Slosvt ended up at +8. Others are getting settings nearer to zero or +1. I am just coming up on the 400 hour mark and will be doing another calibration probably over the next weekend.

The max output can be made the same for the Custom, Cinema, and Pro modes. For example, with all modes set with a Gamma control at 2.4, a Contrast setting of 50 in the Pro mode and 79 in both the Custom and Cinema mode all yield about 29 ftL. And Pro1 and Pro2 are identical. So I don't understand what you mean when you say "the calibrated 'Custom' picture mode is darker than Cinema/Pro 1/Pro 2, and that the modes calibrate differently.". All modes can 'calibrate' differently depending on the initial conditions one chooses. I'm talking 'calibrating' with a spectrometer and colorimeter not simply adjusting.

Once I was a proponent of the method that D-Nice uses. However, during the past six or so years, I have seen the variation among units of the same model/size become larger. This variation increase seemed to become very noticeable in the 2010 models (both Panasonics and Samsungs) and seemed to have become more prominent last year and possibly more so this year. That's why I asked slosvt to do perform the calibration in the same manner that I did to reduce other the effect of other variables. I want to see if there is indeed a significant variation in Brightness setting that large among units.

Larry

As you should know max light output will be different depending where you set your meter (on screen or off screen) and window size if off screen. Your contrast setting for pro mode is low for a max light output of 29FtL, however your 79 FtL is probably fairly close for custom mode night. In your case I would say you are using on-screen mode and your active D2 is probably drifting at least when you took your readings for custom mode..

You keep trying to defend your brightness setting. Using your posted settings what MLL. reading are you getting???

Without a accurate MLL reading from your active meter, I don't think you can make the above statement about brightness.

btw, "method that D-Nice uses". What method are you referring to???
As far as I know his "method" of how he calibrates is pretty much the same from when he was a DIY becoming a pro over your time frame. The biggest changes imo is his level of expertise, software improvements and of course his use of a Klein K10-A meter that will give him a correct MLL reading.

As far as noticeable changes from the VT50 to the VT60 is improvements and the same goes for the Kuro 8G and 9G. imo similar in both cases. However if you are saying there is becoming a lack of quality control between the modes I am talking about from a calibration standpoint I have never seen it.

smile.gif
post #1323 of 3315
Go away, silly. tongue.gif

Larry
post #1324 of 3315
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Look at his settings, he has Tint set at 0 (default). Anyway the last thing you want to do is change tint from its default when you have a CMS like the one the VT50 has.

Color transition should be even not blotchy.

No the contrast ratio is not the best in both case's.

I can understand why folks set contrast and brightness so very high, but non the less setting that high will never give a reference quality picture.
And no I am not trying to pick apart slosvt settings, just trying to say there are many trade offs that are made when you set contrast and brightness as high as he did for his day settings.
As you should know max light output will be different depending where you set your meter (on screen or off screen) and window size if off screen. Your contrast setting for pro mode is low for a max light output of 29FtL, however your 79 FtL is probably fairly close for custom mode night. In your case I would say you are using on-screen mode and your active D2 is probably drifting at least when you took your readings for custom mode..

You keep trying to defend your brightness setting. Using your posted settings what MLL. reading are you getting???

Without a accurate MLL reading from your active meter, I don't think you can make the above statement about brightness.

btw, "method that D-Nice uses". What method are you referring to???
As far as I know his "method" of how he calibrates is pretty much the same from when he was a DIY becoming a pro over your time frame. The biggest changes imo is his level of expertise, software improvements and of course his use of a Klein K10-A meter that will give him a correct MLL reading.

As far as noticeable changes from the VT50 to the VT60 is improvements and the same goes for the Kuro 8G and 9G. imo similar in both cases. However if you are saying there is becoming a lack of quality control between the modes I am talking about from a calibration standpoint I have never seen it.

smile.gif

By "method that D-Nice uses", I thought he just meant using posted calibrated settings on another television (i.e. D-Nice posts settings for people to use). And that it doesn't work well if there is too much variation with the sets (or at least it has its limits), and variation has increased in the last few years (esp. since 2010). That was my understanding. Not sure D-Nice would disagree.

Thanks,
Tom
post #1325 of 3315
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitzant View Post

The default settings would certainly make sense, but I understood them as 'post calibration' (at least the first one). The discussion/comments that followed made it seem like the ‘Custom’ mode may be limited/restricted in some way (unlike other modes), but I don’t see any rational for that (esp. for the mode called ‘Custom’ :-)). I’ll assume all non-THX modes can be calibrated in whichever way one chooses.

I was talking about Brightness control. I’m coming to the realization that I will need to get my new 65VT60 (on the way) professionally calibrated. My approach in the past was to find a few publicly available calibrated settings (by reliable sources, and performed in a dark room), program a few under different modes, and find one that met my needs/standards. That task is very challenging with the VT60, too much variation in the settings (and apparently the sets). My original question to you was a desperate attempt to explain away the differences/variation :-). As you said, the D-Nice method may not work this time.

Thanks,
Tom

No Custom mode is not limited/restricted in any way.

Yes of course a full calibration done by a guy like D-Nice will result in the best "normal" calibration for your VT60.
Your chances are the same when you are talking about a pro like D-Nice's settings.

See my above post that will better explain.

ss
post #1326 of 3315
Sillysally,

How are you going to question my brightness level?

The basic settings were set before starting the calibration. A contrast value of 70 still resulted in the same brightness setting, just lower light output.

Larry,

I will do a night call this weekend using your method (unless the optimal results are hard to achieve) wink.gif
post #1327 of 3315
Quote:
Originally Posted by slosvt View Post

Sillysally,

How are you going to question my brightness level?

The basic settings were set before starting the calibration. A contrast value of 70 still resulted in the same brightness setting, just lower light output.

Larry,

I will do a night call this weekend using your method (unless the optimal results are hard to achieve) wink.gif


Be aware: silly knows all. And he says that unless one has an expensive meter then the Brightness cannot be set correctly. I hope Kane and all those old-timers are paying attention because they should recall all their DVDs -- silly says so biggrin.gif


Thanks, slosvst. I'm looking forward to your results.

EDIT: I strongly suggest you get a copy of ControlCAL for calibrating this TV.

Cheers,
Larry
post #1328 of 3315
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Go away, silly. tongue.gif

Larry

I am sorry but when miss information is posted I will not go away because of a reply of sticking your tongue out.

The simple fact is you can't reply to my post or any one of my points with fact.

I can reply to one of my questions to you. Fact your meters will not read low enough to give you a MLL reading, so you have no basis for fact in your opinion on where brightness should be set.

Do you honestly believe your calibration software (whatever that is) and your (Discontinued) D2 active meter that you are taking readings with can compare to what I use for my active meter (Klein K10-A) to base my statements on.

Why not come over to the Calibration sub threads and post you opinions with out any thing to back up what you are saying, and see how long you last there. wink.gif
post #1329 of 3315
Let me go get my popcorn,this is getting interesting.biggrin.gif
post #1330 of 3315
Silly,

The Brightness level is set visually with a source -- a generator, a DVD, whatever. A meter is not needed.

Please stop with your non-technical misinformation. It is doing nothing but confusing members here.


Go away. eek.gif

Larry
post #1331 of 3315
Panasonic has released a new software version for the ST60. It is version 2.712.
post #1332 of 3315
Quote:
Originally Posted by slosvt View Post

Sillysally,

How are you going to question my brightness level?

The basic settings were set before starting the calibration. A contrast value of 70 still resulted in the same brightness setting, just lower light output.

Larry,

I will do a night call this weekend using your method (unless the optimal results are hard to achieve) wink.gif

I am really not questioning anything. However I do go on and say I understand the use of settings like those for Day settings, using the below settings will not be reference settings. ie bring out the best PQ for a VT60.
Pro 1
Contrast 100
Brightness +8

ss

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Be aware: silly knows all. And he says that unless one has an expensive meter then the Brightness cannot be set correctly. I hope Kane and all those old-timers are paying attention because they should recall all their DVDs -- silly says so biggrin.gif


Thanks, slosvst. I'm looking forward to your results.

EDIT: I strongly suggest you get a copy of ControlCAL for calibrating this TV.

Cheers,
Larry

I am not saying brightness settings needs a accurate meter to set of-course it doesn't hurt, I am saying you need a accurate meter to check your MLL reading and max light output.
After you set your brightness and contrast along with screen brightness and Gamma target, don't you run a pre calibration reading to determine if you have set your pre calibration setting correctly.??? Then after the calibration is completed don't you run a after calibration test to check and see if your original brightness and contrast settings are still the same.??
What you want to see is a MLL reading of about 0.0012 for your calibration/profiling. If you are seeing a reading of say 0.0020 or 0.0000 one of two things are wrong at least for reference settings. In the case that you a getting a MLL reading of 0.002 you may want to adjust your pre calibration setting and re measure. wink.gif
One you are not taking advantage of the very low dark level of the VT60, or two your meter cant read that low so there for you don't really know.

The only reason to have ControlCAL is to make it easier to change your settings if you are not using calibration software like Calman or CP to access your controls of your VT60 , However in no way will ControlCAL improve your calibration results.
fyi, I was a early Bata tester for ControlCAL, and yes I have had CC for all of my displays. CC was a must have for the 8G and 9G Kuro's, and is also helpful in using other settings that are posted to input into your VT60, but not necessary.

I take it your calibration software can't access your VT60. I thought most of the up to date calibration software will access the VT60's settings, what software are you using.?
post #1333 of 3315
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Tom,

Yes, I read those posts and did not understand them at all. Maybe they meant that with default setting one mode is brighter than another. There is no dispute there. Neither of those posts included all the information needed to make clear statements to draw specific conclusions.


EDIT: Tom, are you talking about brightness as in peak output -- or the Brightness control as in setting the black level? I'm interested in the black level Brightness setting variation not peak output.


Larry

Back paddling are we.

FYI, Black level is MLL. If you can't measure it you would not know what your black level is. So if you can't measure "black level" (MLL) what good is knowing where brightness is set except as a guide. And that's why I suggest no more than +2 setting for brightness.

It is very clear that they are talking about peak light out put and adjusting the controls. When you use terms like 26 FtL or 32 FtL, you must know they aren't talking about black level. wink.gif
post #1334 of 3315
One more attempt. There is no reason to know the MLL in order to set the Brightness properly. Knowing the minimum luminance level may be a factor in evaluating the performance of a TV but it is not needed to set the black level.

Jeez, calibration 101. rolleyes.gif

Larry
post #1335 of 3315
3pm after school by the monkeybars.
only way to settle it.
post #1336 of 3315
Quote:
Originally Posted by jihad4jesus View Post

3pm after school by the monkeybars.
only way to settle it.

Not when it comes to technical stuff. In that case, it's time to oil up the sliderules. smile.gif

Larry
post #1337 of 3315
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post


Yes of course a full calibration done by a guy like D-Nice will result in the best "normal" calibration for your VT60.
Your chances are the same when you are talking about a pro like D-Nice's settings.

ss

ss, do you mean settings posted by a pro like D-Nice? (regarding my chances). Haven't seen those for the VT60.

Didn't mean to start a big argument :-), not much I can do to settle this (other than maybe try out both your settings and report back :-), although I don't have an eecolor box, so I'm not sure how to use ss settings (regarding normal Color Detail Adjusment (H, S, L))).

Take care (and sorry :-), to both you and Larry),
Tom
post #1338 of 3315
Tom,

Don't take it personally. Silly has been following me around this forum for weeks trying to win a technical discussion using nontechnical methods. You know -- lots of words, lots of sound bites, and changing subjects. It's the type of stuff that politicians use.

If silly would stop stalking me, it would be over. But I guess he just can't. I must be irresistible to him. biggrin.gif

Not your fault. No need to apologize.

Larry
post #1339 of 3315
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post


If silly would stop stalking me, it would be over. But I guess he just can't. I must be irresistible to him. biggrin.gif



Larry

I'm thinking a motel room might be in order.
post #1340 of 3315
Geez, just block each other and be done with it.
post #1341 of 3315
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitzant View Post

ss, do you mean settings posted by a pro like D-Nice? (regarding my chances). Haven't seen those for the VT60.

Didn't mean to start a big argument :-), not much I can do to settle this (other than maybe try out both your settings and report back :-), although I don't have an eecolor box, so I'm not sure how to use ss settings (regarding normal Color Detail Adjusment (H, S, L))).

Take care (and sorry :-), to both you and Larry),
Tom

Yes D-Nice's setting when he post's them.

The reason why you would need a eecolor box is because the LUT cube type of profiling/ calibration is much more detailed and complex than a normal type of calibration. So if you did have a eecolor box it and compared my LUT settings to his settings, it would be very unfair to him.

LUT that I do uses 4913 as where a normal type of calibration only use 10 points for grayscale/gamma/RGB balance and 6 points for Gamut (CSM). The VT60 as most any high end TV's will only store and process a normal type of calibration. That's why you need something like a eecolor box that is able to process and store the very large LUT type of calibration.

If you are looking for a starting point for custom mode, you may want to try these. Using just these settings should give you about 33 FtL and about 0.0014 MLL
Contrast 83
Brightness +1
Color/Tint 0
Sharpness 0
Panel brightness mid
Color temp warm 2
Color gamut 709 or Native (i use Native)
W/B high red -3
Input signal level 100 IRE, set Red gain -4, Blue +2. Blue low +2.

ss
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Tom,

Don't take it personally. Silly has been following me around this forum for weeks trying to win a technical discussion using nontechnical methods. You know -- lots of words, lots of sound bites, and changing subjects. It's the type of stuff that politicians use.

If silly would stop stalking me, it would be over. But I guess he just can't. I must be irresistible to him. biggrin.gif

Larry

No I am not following you around, don't flatter yourself. I am simply correcting you and your non technical opinions. If you stop using misinformation I will not correct you.
The closest you have gotten to technical, is saying you don't need a meter to set your black level. But that is not entirely true, you do need a meter to read your MLL to determine if your black level is set correctly not maybe close.
In fact that is where most DYI'ers have the biggest problem, setting there black levels and low light level readings. The reason is because most meters will not be all that repeatably/reliable below 30 in a 10 point grayscale. .Why do you think the top pros all use very high end meters, simply to sit in the corner and play with there toys.

If you think sticking your tongue out and you keep saying go away is in any way a technical discussion then when/if you get out of the second grade let me know.

btw do you know what the meaning of the word "method" is. You may want to look that one up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method
I guess they don't use words like that in the second grade. .Here is your reply to my question about your use of "method" . http://www.avsforum.com/t/1466472/2013-panasonic-settings-issues-thread/1320#post_23579576

I am done replying to you and your childish reply's, it has become pointless. . Have a nice day.smile.gif
Edited by sillysally - 7/31/13 at 4:53am
post #1342 of 3315
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitzant View Post

Thanks Larry, appreciate the clarification, and it makes sense (although this significant variation is quite frustrating :-)). Below are the quotes I was referring to, I must have misunderstood the context.

Thanks again,
Tom

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1467563/official-panasonic-vt60-vt65-series-discussion-thread-no-street-price-talk/2550#post_23420330

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbass2k
"Using Calman 4 last night I calibrated my dad's tv in custom mode to compare it to cinema mode (with cnet settings). With a 100% IRE test pattern I measure 33 fl in cinema mode and only 23 fl in custom mode. Panel brightness was set to MID on both modes and no matter what I adjusted in the custom mode I couldn't get higher than ~24 fl. What am I missing here? I even adjusted the individual color luminances to no avail. What gives? Shouldn't I be able to calibrate this mode to look like any other mode if I wanted?"
Sillysally: “Yes you are correct Custom mode is dimmer than Cinema, Pro 1 and 2.
I ran a quick profile on Custom mode and yes the total light output was less, I did find the RGB separation to be better in custom mode than in Cinema, Pro 1 and 2.”

To clarify what I did.

1. Calibrated my father's 60VT60 in "Custom" mode using Calman 4 and an i1D2 colorimeter (I know...cheap ass meter) in a completely dark room.
2. Measured the light output on a 100% IRE test pattern (Joe Kane HD Basics) and got a reading of ~23 fl.
3. Made numerous setting adjustments (minus the panel brightness (MID) and gamma (2.2)) to attempt to increase the max light output close to the cinema mode.
4. 100% IRE light output at this point measured ~24 fl in the custom mode and ~33 fl in cinema mode (Cnet settings).
5. Set both cinema and custom modes to the exact same settings.
6. Measured the light output on the 100% IRE test pattern in the custom mode and the cinema mode, which yielded ~23 fl and ~33 fl respectively.

My Conclusion? I'm sure custom mode can be calibrated to an equivalent cinema picture, but by default...the max light output of the custom mode is lower than the cinema and pro modes with the exact same settings. I know the i1D2 isn't the best meter...but it was visually obvious that the custom mode was darker than the cinema mode with the same settings viewing various content....including the 100% IRE test pattern. If anyone has found this not to be true..let me know....because it's the same on my 65VT60 also.
post #1343 of 3315
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbass2k View Post

To clarify what I did.

1. Calibrated my father's 60VT60 in "Custom" mode using Calman 4 and an i1D2 colorimeter (I know...cheap ass meter) in a completely dark room.
2. Measured the light output on a 100% IRE test pattern (Joe Kane HD Basics) and got a reading of ~23 fl.
3. Made numerous setting adjustments (minus the panel brightness (MID) and gamma (2.2)) to attempt to increase the max light output close to the cinema mode.
4. 100% IRE light output at this point measured ~24 fl in the custom mode and ~33 fl in cinema mode (Cnet settings).
5. Set both cinema and custom modes to the exact same settings.
6. Measured the light output on the 100% IRE test pattern in the custom mode and the cinema mode, which yielded ~23 fl and ~33 fl respectively.

My Conclusion? I'm sure custom mode can be calibrated to an equivalent cinema picture, but by default...the max light output of the custom mode is lower than the cinema and pro modes with the exact same settings. I know the i1D2 isn't the best meter...but it was visually obvious that the custom mode was darker than the cinema mode with the same settings viewing various content....including the 100% IRE test pattern. If anyone has found this not to be true..let me know....because it's the same on my 65VT60 also.

What size windows did you use ? You are porbably seeing the effects of abl
post #1344 of 3315
I looked through lots of the threads and posts it looks like the VT60 does not have any recommended settings posted by D-Nice or other respectable calibrators (if I missed it can you link me back to it)? I am getting ready to purchase the VT60, my first plasma, and trying to understand the 100 hours of the slides and the do's and don'ts. Never really thought about all of this information until I was reading AVS about what people thought of the VT60.

Am I correct that there are no recommended settings posted for the VT60? Is this due to the variations on the panels? Are people still running the slides even though there are no recommended setting per se.

Thanks for any input. I just want to make sure I do things correctly.
post #1345 of 3315
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

I am really not questioning anything. However I do go on and say I understand the use of settings like those for Day settings, using the below settings will not be reference settings. ie bring out the best PQ for a VT60.
Pro 1
Contrast 100
Brightness +8


The intial calibration is simply that. The TV has very few hours on it, so it will be a few weeks before I do any critical viewing and perform a calibration for "Night" viewing. My meter did pull a MLL of .0013 with the settings I posted.

I also found that a contrast setting of 81 in Professional produced @ 29 FtL (which is more than bright enough at night for my sensitive eyes). This was measured with a i1 Display Pro (touching the screen) and the Chromapure window pattern from the AVS disc.
post #1346 of 3315
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedahammer View Post


Am I correct that there are no recommended settings posted for the VT60? Is this due to the variations on the panels? Are people still running the slides even though there are no recommended setting per se.

Thanks for any input. I just want to make sure I do things correctly.

As far as I know, you are correct, no settings from well known calibrators at this time. There are the CNET settings (which seem limited/minimal), and the few which are posted on this thread (by users who calibrated their panels). Could be due to the variation, but the real reason is beyond me, esp. for a model that is getting this much 'buzz'. The slides are a good idea no matter what (unrelated to the settings), they help break-in the new screen uniformly (the most important thing is to avoid static images for extend periods of time for the first 200 hours).

Thanks,
Tom
post #1347 of 3315
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

What size windows did you use ? You are porbably seeing the effects of abl

18% window size
post #1348 of 3315
Soooo when running the slides - does it appear that the pixels are shifting/dancing around a lot if you look at the TV closely? Just curious rolleyes.gif
post #1349 of 3315
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtheby05 View Post

Soooo when running the slides - does it appear that the pixels are shifting/dancing around a lot if you look at the TV closely? Just curious rolleyes.gif

Did you turn pixel orbit off?
post #1350 of 3315
Quote:
Originally Posted by jconjason View Post

Did you turn pixel orbit off?

I do believe I did. Will have to try it again. I only noticed it when I was really close to the panel. I had gone up to it to rotate the whole thing a touch and just noticed it then.
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