or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Plasma Flat Panel Displays › 2013 Panasonic Settings/Issues Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

2013 Panasonic Settings/Issues Thread - Page 54

post #1591 of 3304
Oh, I think I figured out what was skewing stuff from my HTPC. I had the Digital Color Format set to RGB in the nVidia control panel. I'll take readings later with it set to YCbCr444 instead and see if the discrepancies between the built in movie player and my HTPC go away.

Edit: Just watching something I think I can already tell with my eyes that this was the problem.
Edited by damag0r - 8/29/13 at 5:19pm
post #1592 of 3304
Quote:
Originally Posted by damag0r View Post

Yeah, I missed the report before which has the gamma of 2.22. Which is very confusing considering he says to set the gamma to 2.6 on 50" and 55" panels, and 2.4 on the larger ones under the gamma settings in the Pro menu. Also, when I use his settings my average gamma was coming out to about 2.5 and if I kept the reference gamma at 2.22 my deltaE's were much further off. I guess that means D-Nice's settings didn't actually get as close as I thought they did or either there was some sort of mistake or odd reason he had for telling us to set it to 2.6 or 2.4 in the Pro menu... Any idea why?
There are a few reasons why your gamma is measuring differently than D-Nice. It could be that you're using different patterns than D-Nice used, it could be due to panel to panel variances, or it could be that your panel size is different than the one that he used. And also your meter is most likely reporting slightly different luminance readings than the meter he uses. Don't think too much of it... just pick a target between 2.1-2.4'ish (or bt.1886), try different patterns and see which one produces the better results to your eyes. Again, your gamma will measure differently when you use different patterns due to the ABL (auto brightness limiter)

As for the gamma slider, it has never been an accurate representation of your real gamma, or perhaps it is using whatever patterns Panasonic uses. But I like to think of it as more of a reference or starting point, kind of like the color temperature you pick as a starting point for your grayscale calibration.
Quote:
They are set the same. I switched all of the HDMI content types to "OFF" and all ranges are set to "standard" (16-235). Neither of these options are available under advanced options when in the built in movie player though. It's probably Nvidia's drivers boosting the contrast or maybe there is a setting I'm missing somewhere in the Nvidia control panel? Maybe I should set the content type back to "auto" instead of "off", but I can't see how this wouldn't just mess up things.

Anyway thanks for the info. I'll target 2.22 or 2.3 when I do my actual calibration. I was going to originally wait until 250 hours were up to do it, but I don't think I can wait that long. wink.gif
I'm only familiar with AMD cards. In the very limited experience I have with Nvidia cards, I couldn't figure out how to get my levels to match. IIRC, the control panel's color space option only affects videos, not your desktop. With AMD cards, the control panel sets the color space for video and the desktop.
Quote:
Oh and I'll definitely upgrade my HCFR.
I think you'll find that it is much better. John and Zoyd have done a great job on it.
post #1593 of 3304
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

There are a few reasons why your gamma is measuring differently than D-Nice. It could be that you're using different patterns than D-Nice used, it could be due to panel to panel variances, or it could be that your panel size is different than the one that he used. And also your meter is most likely reporting slightly different luminance readings than the meter he uses. Don't think too much of it... just pick a target between 2.1-2.4'ish (or bt.1886), try different patterns and see which one produces the better results to your eyes. Again, your gamma will measure differently when you use different patterns due to the ABL (auto brightness limiter)

I try to pick window or APL patterns which only barely cause the ABL to kick in. I figure this will be the best compromise for all content. I'm still confused why he says to pick "2.6" from the Pro Gamma menu if he's targeting 2.22 though. That's really my main point of confusion. I guess maybe with the panel he was calibrating it was offering the most flat response?

I'm assuming when I'm calibrating I want the gamma line to be as flat as possible, since this thing does have 10 point gamma control?

Again thanks for the help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

I'm only familiar with AMD cards. In the very limited experience I have with Nvidia cards, I couldn't figure out how to get my levels to match. IIRC, the control panel's color space option only affects videos, not your desktop. With AMD cards, the control panel sets the color space for video and the desktop.

See my post right above yours. I found where you can set it so it will match, it was using RGB before.
Edited by damag0r - 8/30/13 at 2:46am
post #1594 of 3304
The 2.2 preset does not usually measure as 2.2 he is picking the one closest to 2.2 usually
post #1595 of 3304
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

Ya, D-Nice seems to usually target ~2.22. I personally like my gamma ~2.3 in my dark viewing area.

I'm between the two at 2.26. However, I am curious what something closer to 2.3 would look like.
post #1596 of 3304
First time poster - and first time Panasonic plasma owner. I'm really excited to get started - and thank you to all the wonderful advice on this forum!

Two questions (I've read all 54 pages of posts - I don't think this was covered - my apologies if it was):
1) When running the initial 100 hour D-Nice slides, should Power Save be set to "Saving" or "Standard".
2) What should the normal Power Save mode be after set up and during normal TV watching (focused on best PQ not reducing electric bill :-))

Thanks for the help!
post #1597 of 3304
Just powered up my st60 last night and immediately started running Dnice's preparation slides. Fortunately, I will be out of town for the holiday weekend and by the time I return, there will only be 4 hours left. biggrin.gif

I honestly haven't read through the entire thread, but I'm curious how 100 hours was determined to be the ideal time to run these slides for?
post #1598 of 3304
Hey guys I've been apart of the s60 thread for a while and was going to get a 65s64 (which some in here have prolly seen). So now that the TV is going in my room I need a 50-55". I am looking at the 50ST50 which is obviously older model or the 50ST60. My biggest concern is the high input lag on the ST60 I've read and read and read about it but can't get a concrete answer. So my dispute is do I not consider what's considered the best valued and performing TV st60 besides the
Flagship models do to lag issues and I'm a casual to moderate gamer or do I get the ST50 with half the lag but lose some black level and performance? And also the st60
Is a lil cheaper and comes with glasses
post #1599 of 3304
Most people including myself think the input lag issue on the ST60 is overblown. A few people notice it and have issues, such as trying to play older consoles and twitch platforming games, but for me (and others have said too) it's not an issue and not noticeable. I personally play a lot of shooters, action games, etc.

The one issue however, and it's not limited to just the ST60, is static logos (sports scores) and hud (video games), and risk/threat of IR.
post #1600 of 3304
@selfmade - Do you have games hooked up to another monitor/TV at the moment, and if so, have you done research as to what the input lag is currently? You could maybe use that as a benchmark to see if the lag on the ST60 would bother you. If you have a game like Rock Band 2, you could also use that to give a rough idea of what you're looking at. If you have a Wii U, you could also use that to get a very rough idea of what your input lag is (the Gamepad clocks in at around 2 frames).
post #1601 of 3304
Quote:
Originally Posted by damag0r View Post

I try to pick window or APL patterns which only barely cause the ABL to kick in. I figure this will be the best compromise for all content. I'm still confused why he says to pick "2.6" from the Pro Gamma menu if he's targeting 2.22 though. That's really my main point of confusion. I guess maybe with the panel he was calibrating it was offering the most flat response?

I'm assuming when I'm calibrating I want the gamma line to be as flat as possible, since this thing does have 10 point gamma control?

Again thanks for the help.
See my post right above yours. I found where you can set it so it will match, it was using RGB before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

The 2.2 preset does not usually measure as 2.2 he is picking the one closest to 2.2 usually
Chunon is probably right. And yes, if you're using power law gamma or the traditional way of doing gamma instead of bt.1886, you want it to be as flat as possible. BT.1886 will draw you a curve based on your black/white measurements where you would use your 10pt gamma gain to line up your points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I'm between the two at 2.26. However, I am curious what something closer to 2.3 would look like.
TBH, I haven't calibrated a display with a 10pt gamma for a while. My current display (ST50) only has a slider, so I'm stuck with ~2.22 or ~2.32... I slightly prefer the latter, although I would actually prefer something in-between. Also depends on the display I guess.
Edited by rahzel - 8/30/13 at 11:24am
post #1602 of 3304
Quote:
Originally Posted by PogueSquadron View Post

@selfmade - Do you have games hooked up to another monitor/TV at the moment, and if so, have you done research as to what the input lag is currently? You could maybe use that as a benchmark to see if the lag on the ST60 would bother you. If you have a game like Rock Band 2, you could also use that to give a rough idea of what you're looking at. If you have a Wii U, you could also use that to get a very rough idea of what your input lag is (the Gamepad clocks in at around 2 frames).
It's a 3 year old samsung 32 inch basic LCD TV with game mode. I'm sure it's not to far behind with high lag but it does seem to be better than some of the videos I've seen
post #1603 of 3304
Maybe look at the model number on the back. Someone online may have already found out and maybe you can use that as a point of reference.
post #1604 of 3304
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeeJHooK View Post

Just powered up my st60 last night and immediately started running Dnice's preparation slides. Fortunately, I will be out of town for the holiday weekend and by the time I return, there will only be 4 hours left. biggrin.gif

I honestly haven't read through the entire thread, but I'm curious how 100 hours was determined to be the ideal time to run these slides for?
By following D-Nice's procedure you are mimicking what he did before he calibrated his ST60. He ran the slides for 100 hours to get past the period where panels typically drift. He chose those slides instead of other sources to age the panel evenly.

It turned out that the ST60 sets were still drifting until about 300 hours. D-Nice recommends that you wait at least that long before paying for a professional calibration. You can stop the slides at 100 hours and enter D-Nice's ST60 settings. smile.gif
post #1605 of 3304
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

By following D-Nice's procedure you are mimicking what he did before he calibrated his ST60. He ran the slides for 100 hours to get past the period where panels typically drift. He chose those slides instead of other sources to age the panel evenly.

It turned out that the ST60 sets were still drifting until about 300 hours. D-Nice recommends that you wait at least that long before paying for a professional calibration. You can stop the slides at 100 hours and enter D-Nice's ST60 settings. smile.gif

Thanks. And just for own peace of mind, it should be safe to keep this tv on for 100 hours consecutively right? I am leaving for the weekend, so I just want to make sure it's safe to keep it on and running the slides while i'm away.
post #1606 of 3304
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeeJHooK View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

By following D-Nice's procedure you are mimicking what he did before he calibrated his ST60. He ran the slides for 100 hours to get past the period where panels typically drift. He chose those slides instead of other sources to age the panel evenly.

It turned out that the ST60 sets were still drifting until about 300 hours. D-Nice recommends that you wait at least that long before paying for a professional calibration. You can stop the slides at 100 hours and enter D-Nice's ST60 settings. smile.gif

Thanks. And just for own peace of mind, it should be safe to keep this tv on for 100 hours consecutively right? I am leaving for the weekend, so I just want to make sure it's safe to keep it on and running the slides while i'm away.
If there is a power outage and the power comes back on before you return, there might be a fixed image on the screen for a lot of hours. Is there someone who could check on your set?

Running the slides for 100 hours straight isn't dangerous, but leaving the set unattended for the whole weekend might be. I've been retired for twenty years, so all my plasmas (1) have had me around a few times during each 24 hour period. wink.gif
post #1607 of 3304
If theres a power outage, will the tv come back on by itself?
post #1608 of 3304
Hey guys. I tried looking through this thread, but couldn't find anything about it.

I went out and bought a 3tb external hard drive last night, got home, formatted it, and the dumped a mkv onto it. It couldn't find anything on the drive so I moved the exact same file onto another hard drive that was only 1tb and it found it and played it just fine.

Does anyone know if there's a drive limit for the vt60? If so, do you guys know what it is?
post #1609 of 3304
emoxxxkid,
I see you posted that in the VT60 thread also. That is good because that is where it belongs. It has nothing to do with settings and you should delete it from this thread. It is discouraged to post the same post in several threads especially when they are irrelevant to the thread as that one is.
post #1610 of 3304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

emoxxxkid,
I see you posted that in the VT60 thread also. That is good because that is where it belongs. It has nothing to do with settings and you should delete it from this thread. It is discouraged to post the same post in several threads especially when they are irrelevant to the thread as that one is.

Well considering this is an "issue" and the thread title clearly says Issues, then it is relevant. More relevant in here than the general thread. Not trying to be a dick, but then what's the point of having an "issues" thread? I've read this whole thing and there's a lot more talk than just "settings" going on in here. There's other issues posted.
post #1611 of 3304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

If theres a power outage, will the tv come back on by itself?

Depends.... In my experience, atv will stay off if the power is lost for significant time (minutes, hours). However, my s64 came back on after a momentary distortion in power while running slides... Thankfully the tv was on a full screen HD station.
post #1612 of 3304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

If theres a power outage, will the tv come back on by itself?
I just pulled the plug on the S64 and it came back on when I plugged it back in. I didn't pull the plug on the AVR or Sony Blu-ray player. What I expect, but haven't tested, is that everything would come back on, but the state that the player would find itself in would result in a fixed image. I have no idea what a TV would do if it's signal was coming from a USB stick.
post #1613 of 3304
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

I just pulled the plug on the S64 and it came back on when I plugged it back in. I didn't pull the plug on the AVR or Sony Blu-ray player. What I expect, but haven't tested, is that everything would come back on, but the state that the player would find itself in would result in a fixed image. I have no idea what a TV would do if it's signal was coming from a USB stick.

My s64 came back on after a temporary power loss and defaulted to HDMI input 1 rather than running slides or showing media player screen.
post #1614 of 3304
Quote:
Originally Posted by IDRick View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

I just pulled the plug on the S64 and it came back on when I plugged it back in. I didn't pull the plug on the AVR or Sony Blu-ray player. What I expect, but haven't tested, is that everything would come back on, but the state that the player would find itself in would result in a fixed image. I have no idea what a TV would do if it's signal was coming from a USB stick.

My s64 came back on after a temporary power loss and defaulted to HDMI input 1 rather than running slides or showing media player screen.
All inputs (Blu-ray players and cable) come into the S64 that we have through HDMI 1. I guess that it's good that I didn't use HDMI 2. wink.gif
post #1615 of 3304
EDID-related question: Will the ST60 accept a true 5.1 audio signal and down-mix it to 2-channel/stereo for output through its speakers? Getting a "true" 5.1 audio signal to the ST60 would of course have to involve EDID manipulation. I can elaborate more if needed - thanks.
post #1616 of 3304
Quote:
Originally Posted by dandiego View Post

EDID-related question: Will the ST60 accept a true 5.1 audio signal and down-mix it to 2-channel/stereo for output through its speakers? Getting a "true" 5.1 audio signal to the ST60 would of course have to involve EDID manipulation. I can elaborate more if needed - thanks.
Have you tried calling Panasonic?
post #1617 of 3304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Have you tried calling Panasonic?

Yes, they were no help. It was clear that their reps are trained to assist people with very basic questions, like connecting the HDMI cable to the right port, etc.
post #1618 of 3304
Quote:
Originally Posted by dandiego View Post

Yes, they were no help. It was clear that their reps are trained to assist people with very basic questions, like connecting the HDMI cable to the right port, etc.
I figured as much but thought it would be worth a try.
post #1619 of 3304
I am copying a few of my posts from the ST60 thread to here, as they concern calibration, and the effectiveness (or rather ineffectiveness) of using other people's calibration settings on your own TV. This was a little off topic on the other thread, and will do more good here.

Long story short, it's NOT good to use other people's detailed calibration settings. Even if you use D-NICE's slides to break in your set, using his settings will not give you an accurate or calibrated picture.

To understand why, read this post...

Short of getting a pro calibration done on your TV, just set the basic settings, disable "enhancements." and get Disney WoW or a basic setup disc to set your brightness (black level) and other basic settings...

Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

The slides are to age the pixels on the panel 100% evenly, in preparation for a pro calibration (although that shouldn't be done until 300 hours). They won't prevent IR or burn-in.

D-Nice got one group of settings when he calibrated at 100 hours, and they were different at 300 hours. Plugging his settings into your TV is no different than plugging in random numbers to all the settings, because his panel is different than yours. If you compare his settings to C-Net's to Cadetts to anyone else's that posted their "after" pro settings, they are all different, and for a reason...

His settings/post seems like more trouble than it's worth...


rolleyes.gif

The 100 hours is part of a procedure designed for those who want to get the most out of D-Nice's settings. His procedure is not related to having a professional calibration, and according to D-Nice his settings are not a replacement for a professional calibration. He says the settings are a starting point. That's true of all posted settings, because, as you point out, every set, of a given model, will be a little different. The aren't grossly different, but they are different.

His (D-Nice's) settings post say only the following, no mention of "not a replacement for a pro calibration".
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-NICE 
"This procedure is designed to prepare your display for the reference settings listed for each 2013 North American Panasonic model below by aging all pixels equally with the same content."
He may say that in other posts in other threads, but the original posts do not mention it at all. People read the 2 posts and get the wrong impression of what the slides and settings are giving them. And "reference settings" written here can easily be misconstrued as very accurate/calibrated settings as long as the slides/procedure are followed to the T. That's definitely not the case and it is very misleading.

If calibrations were universal for every TV, manufacturers could easily just set the custom/cinema/HT modes to be 100% accurate before even shipping the TVs out. And there would be no need for pro calibrators to go around and adjust TVs and projectors. And we all know that's not the case...
Quote:
When D-Nice or any other respected calibrator works on several examples of the same model panel, the settings will be different to some degree, but the charts illustrating the results will be almost identical. The better the TV's controls and build quality, the more consistent the results will be.

My point is not that the calibration results are bad when done by a pro (because they are very good), or that D-Nice doesn't know what he's doing (he obviously does know what he is doing).

My point is that (and I've posted this quite a few times here and on other threads)----plugging someone else's settings into your own TV will only make your own TV look different or worse. Not accurate, and definitely not "calibrated."

It's a shame that the pros that post their settings don't really mention this at least from a few posts I've seen. (I know that D-Nice has mentioned it here and there in follow-up posts). But it seems like the pros especially should be forthcoming and clear about expectations and caveats for using someone else's settings. I would think pros would even recommend their clients not post the final settings because of the big variances between sets, and the need for a pro calibration to really get the most out of the picture.


Even CNET's own settings page for ST60 only says "My TC-P55ST60 sample was aged 150 hours before calibration and review, but there's no reason you need to similarly break it in before you apply the settings below." No mention that every TV differs and that their settings aren't necessarily good for any other display, and no mention of getting a pro calibration (http://forums.cnet.com/7723-19410_102-590736/panasonic-tc-p55st60-picture-settings/).

Even CNET's own settings/calibration page skirts around the issue:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-9996461-1.html?tag=posts;msg5447483
Quote:
Originally Posted by CNET 
Are your settings as good as a professional calibration?
It depends on the TV, and the calibrator. We've heard horror stories about pointless, expensive calibrations, whether from independent contractors or services like Best Buy's Geek Squad, and we've also heard from customers who are very happy with their professional calibrations. Sometimes the CNET picture settings, since they don't address the service menu, can't be as accurate as a professional one that does go into the service menu. When a TV has plenty of user-menu controls, however, the CNET settings can be just as good as a professional calibration, with the significant caveats that of course a pro can make adjustments for you on-site, takes into account your entire system and room lighting condition, and can provide other general advice. We also use the best equipment available and our reviewers are all very experienced calibrators, while some calibration services lack our experience and equipment.

That is what I am lamenting and getting frustrated with, overall.
It could be as simple as D-Nice going back to the original slides/settings posts and updating them with the disclaimers (and even adding the post-300-hour settings in one of his "reserved" posts).

I don't know the thread/link off-hand from the Calibration forum, but a pro had links in his signature to another website with articles, and one of them was a "semi scientific" poll or comparison of "before/after" readings for about 20~ high-end Pioneer Kuro plasmas, all done by pros. I assume the Kuro displays start out being more accurate with a closer tolerance / less inconsistency between panels than the ST60s or other modes.

From those 20~ panels, there was only a 5% / 1 in 20 chance that two displays would start off with similar picture readings. The other 95% of the time the "before" (reaqdings and therefore the calibrated settings to fix the readings) were most likely drastically different. Meaning that using someone else's settings actually makes your picture worse than before, or possibly / less frequently, using someone else's settings made your picture not necessarily worse but just as far from accurate as the default settings. And that's why the default settings are what they are -- they are more or less an average to get the best results knowing how the panels can differ from unit to unit.


This 95/5 ratio is pretty consistent with the inconsistent ST60 "before" readings shown below and in the attached image.
Quote:
The drift found by D-Nice in his ST60 is a problem with the display, and not a problem with his or anyone else's calibration. D-Nice recommended that anyone wanting a professional calibration should wait at least 300 hours. He did not recommend running the slides for three hundred hours.

I didn't say any of that. My point was that even on his own display, he needed different settings after another 200 hours. So people using random settings from someone else is useless/not accurate.
And again, there's no mention from D-Nice of any of that in those original posts. It's just buried in various threads.


Quote:
If you have the technical credentials to criticize D-Nice's professional work, do so, but do it on a technical basis. Such a high level technical criticism should be in the calibration forum, because it's off topic here. .

I am not criticizing his work on his own display. I am only calling into question the point of people posting settings, including D-Nice and CNET, because displays differ so much. I do not think it is off topic, because people post here and in the settings thread how they use the slides and settings as their "calibration" and trust them like the Bible. I would rather people be educated and not have a false sense of security that their TV is "calibrated" when it's not, seeing how obsessed people get with the slides and his settings.

And I'm not a pro, just a hobbyist. But I do know a little about calibration/tuning displays / audio / bass (threads here and on other forums -- including a HTPC + DLP/rear pro "how to calibrate by eye" sticky from 5~6 years ago, helping with REW/BFD for subs, etc.).

To illustrate the differences, you can look at the "before" charts in the various before/after calibration reports (D-Nice doesn't have his own before/after report posted, at least in those two posts, only the "after")

From the records you yourself keep in the Calibration forums (and I commend you on your efforts and dedication in maintaining such amazing and thorough records everyone), most of these have the PDFs with before/after PDFs. To make things easier than going to all these links and opening the PDFs, I've attached a jpg showing the "before" greyscale readings from 7 of these that have PDFs and use the consistent format. Caveat: I didn't see whether these were Cinema/Custom or whatever settings.
Panasonic TC-PxxST60 (1080p):
Chad B for JetsCuseFan
Chad B for LESeminole
Chad B for ricemanva
Chad B for Shady195
Chad B for shoresguy
Chad B for Timokeon
Charles Cooper for ryansebiz
Gregg Loewen for JSwizzle

Here's them all together:

*You can compare with CNET's report here, which was after 150 hours -- they look partially similar to one of the readings in the jpg, but very different from the others --> http://www.scribd.com/doc/135590606/Panasonic-TC-P55ST60-CNET-review-calibration-results


For example, Mr Smith's before is actually like the readings in the top left (and he doesn't know because he doesn't have the equipment), and he inputs calibration settings used by Mr Jones for the TV on the bottom right, Mr Smith's TV will look much worse than if he had left the detailed settings at default. That's the danger...



COMPARISON:
D-NICE Settings /// CNET Settings
*Caveat that D-Nice's settings are for Custom, and CNET's are for Cinema.
Quote:
Pro Settings
Panel Brightness: Mid
AGC: 0
Black Extension: 0
Color Gamut: Normal

W/B Detail Adjustment
W/B High R: 5 /// 6
W/B High G: 0 /// -1
W/B High B:5 /// 1
W/B Low R: 3 /// 1
W/B Low G: 0 /// -1
W/B Low B: 1 /// 0


(W/B) More Detail Adjustment
10 W/B R: -20 /// -10
10 W/B G: 0 /// -10
10 W/B B: 13 /// 10

20 W/B R: 5 /// 3
20 W/B G: 0 /// -4
20 W/B B: 14 /// 0

30 W/B R: 7 /// 0
30 W/B G: 0 /// 0
30 W/B B: 4 /// 0

40 W/B R: 6 /// -3
40 W/B G: 0 /// -4
40 W/B B: 2 /// -1

50 W/B R: 3 /// 0
50 W/B G: 0 /// 0
50 W/B B: -4 /// 0

60 W/B R: -3 /// 0
60 W/B G: 0 /// 0
60 W/B B: -8 /// 0

70 W/B R: -2 /// 0
70 W/B G: 0 /// 0
70 W/B B: -7 /// 0

80 W/B R: 6 /// 0
80 W/B G: 0 /// 0
80 W/B B: -1 /// 0

90 W/B R: 1 /// -1
90 W/B G: -1 /// 1
90 W/B B: 2 /// 2

100 W/B R: -11 /// -4
100 W/B G: 0 /// 0
100 W/B B: 4 /// 3

Color Detail Adjustment
R-Hue: 2 /// -8
R-Sat: -39 /// 4
R-Lum: -9 /// -3

G-Hue: 12 /// 3
G-Sat: -50 /// 12
G-Lum: 0 /// 10

B-Hue: -22 /// 10
B-Sat: 8 /// 10
B-Lum: -8 /// -10


Gamma Detail Adjustment
Gamma: 2.6 /// 2.2

(Gamma) More Detail Adjustment
10 Gain: -33 /// -10
20 Gain: -15 /// -20
30 Gain: -6 /// -20
40 Gain: -3 /// -20
50 Gain: -2 /// -6
60 Gain: 3 /// 0
70 Gain: 3 /// 0
80 Gain: -1 /// 0
90 Gain: 0 /// 2
100 Gain: 0 /// 0



I apologize for the lengthy post, and apologize if anything here comes off as antagonistic or standoffish. Again, my intention is to try to balance out the obsession with the slides/settings, which I personally think are dangerously (admittedly too strong a word) misleading. There is definitely a lot of confusion around the slides, settings, and what expectations should be, as evidenced by the FAQ that was suggested and started, maybe finished/maybe discontinued... biggrin.gif


//////////////


Found the links, in a post by GeorgeAB (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1487258/need-calibration-settings-for-my-tv)

'The Fruits Of Copying Settings- The Pioneer Lottery'
http://www.tlvexp.ca/2012/12/the-fruits-of-copying-settings-the-pioneer-lottery/
This is the link / Kuro experiment I was thinking of, and it looks like it was 2 out of 50 TVs, not the 1 out of 20~25 that I was thinking of.

Sharing display menu settings?'
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1055906

'Why Copying Settings From The Web Won't Get You A Calibrated TV'
http://forums.hdtvtest.co.uk/index.php?topic=7202.0


And that last link, very interesting. it mentions a disclaimer they post (kudos!), and shows an experiment with an ST50. Click the above link to read it on their website, with the images (they missing below).
Quote:
We're usually happy to share them, especially if a model has a particularly bad out of the box preset mode, so users can see some improvement.

However, even in the case of TVs with decent presets, people still ask us for the settings, so we release them with this disclaimer:

The usual disclaimer:
Quote:
Copying calibrated settings from the internet will not net you a calibrated TV. Calibration is an exact process which involves measuring colours and brightness from the TV screen and making precise adjustments to offset errors. In comparison, copying settings used on another TV will only provide an approximate result. In the case of TVs which have very good preset picture modes, they may even make the image quality worse.

Although many settings operate in the same way from unit to unit, some of the most crucial settings - the Greyscale (White Balance) adjustments - are largely specific to each TV and can only be successfully adjusted with a calibration device and software. The following settings reflect the adjustments that we made on our individual review sample.


Today I bought a Panasonic ST50 and as an experiment, copied the settings I used on the review sample TV to get near-perfect Greyscale tracking.

And here are the calibrated settings from one TV copied into another:


As you can see, we just took a plus-green TV and made it... plus-red! Delta errors, for the most part, are worse. Colour is reigned in a bit but is still wrong.

*********

Updated, July 10, 2012: here's another example with the out of the box settings on a Samsung LED LCD TV, with the calibrated settings we were asked to give out, copied into a very similar model.

Out of the box:



Copied settings - even bigger errors:



*********

For this reason, we generally only recommend sharing settings if the out of the box preset on your display is especially inaccurate (we share full settings in these cases).

If you want the best performance from your display, it needs to be calibrated.



Here is HDTV Test Forums (who had the above disclaimer) review of ST60 (UK/EU model) including detailed notes how they went about calibrating it and before/after calibration graphs. Interesting findings on the LOW v MID panel brightness settings, although this is again a UK/EU model, not a US model. The same could apply here, because the "HIGH" mode works like they describe in the notes.
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panasonic-tx-p42st60-201303312779.htm
post #1620 of 3304
Cyberbri,

I can see that this is a major issue for you, and I commend the effort that you've put into it. I also agree with some of your points.

I'm reposting your comments that preceded your major post, because I didn't refer to any specifics in my reply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

The slides are to age the pixels on the panel 100% evenly, in preparation for a pro calibration (although that shouldn't be done until 300 hours). They won't prevent IR or burn-in.
The preparation (D-Nice's procedure) is to mimic what D-Nice did before he calibrated his ST60, not as preparation for a professional calibration on a different owner's set.
Quote:
D-Nice got one group of settings when he calibrated at 100 hours, and they were different at 300 hours.
Yes and he posted his discovery as soon as he found it. In the past, 100 hours has always been considered enough time to avoid the worst of panel drift. Thats not the case with the ST60 models according to D-Nice.
Quote:
Plugging his settings into your TV is no different than plugging in random numbers to all the settings, because his panel is different than yours.
Random numbers? eek.gif

Maybe you were exaggerating for effect.

Quote:
If you compare his settings to C-Net's to Cadetts to anyone else's that posted their "after" pro settings, they are all different, and for a reason...
The reason is, as you've pointed out, the sets are all different to some degree. That doesn't mean the posted settings are of no use. It just means that all those calibrators, if they are as good as the best of them, will arrive at an equal performance result for the exact set they calibrated. It says nothing about what other people will get copying those same settings.
Quote:
His settings/post seems like more trouble than it's worth...
If you mean that what D-Nice has posted this year, then I think he might agree that the ST60 settings he posted are not as useful as the settings that he has posted for other models from previous years.

When a professional gives of his time and effort to help others, I don't think that it's worthwhile to criticize based on what more he might have done. An example might be, why didn't D-Nice post his settings from the recalibration that he did to prove that there had been unexpected drift in the ST60 panels?

One explanation, and I don't think any are required, might be that there is no way for someone else to mimic the signal history of his ST60 from the 100 hour point to the time he did his recalibration.

I think I've said everything I can think of so I'll stop. biggrin.gif
Edited by htwaits - 8/31/13 at 2:42pm
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Plasma Flat Panel Displays
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Plasma Flat Panel Displays › 2013 Panasonic Settings/Issues Thread