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2013 Panasonic Settings/Issues Thread - Page 78

post #2311 of 3317
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0din View Post

Hi, I'm running slides for 24 hours now but I've bumped into a "problem": every 4 hours my new VT60 stops.
Is there a setting that can't prevent that ?!
Im sure that the panel assumes the slides are static ... and that's probably the reason of stopping ...
Any thoughts ?!

Well I have a ST60 but assuming the menu is simular to the VT60, go Menu-Setup-Eco navigation-No activitty for 4 hours,,, and click to Stay on. That should solve your issue. smile.gif

edit: this is also found in Menu-Timer
Edited by Robin Bombard - 12/1/13 at 1:37am
post #2312 of 3317
Thank you Robin, you're a lifesaver !
Semper Fi !


Later edit:
Unfortunately it didn't worked ...
The tv switched off again ...
This is how those settings look like on my panel (no ”No activitty for 4 hours” sub menu in Eco Navi whatsoever .

Any other thoughts would be more than welcomed !

Later edit 2

Eureka !!!
Found it !
On my VT60 I had to go Menu→Timer→Auto Standby→ON
Voila !

Edited by 0din - 12/1/13 at 12:46pm
post #2313 of 3317
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Thanks again for outstanding information. I think I failed to make my point clearly. It's a personal choice to use his settings with or without his complete procedure. Those who do use his settings without the complete procedure shouldn't be critiquing those settings.

Great point. I agree. And I'll add that some don't even know what a calibrated set really looks like and complain that the picture doesn't meet their personal expectations. smile.gif

Larry
post #2314 of 3317
To make an important point yet again: Here is a comparison between The default THX Cinema picture mode and the D-Nice settings copied to one of my Professional modes. I did not follow the aging procedure that D-Nice recommends. The measurements were made on my 65VT60. I did not repeat it on my 60VT60.

THX Cinema -- grayscale:


THX Cinema -- gamma:


D-Nice settings copied -- grayscale:


D-Nice setting copied -- gamma:



The default THX Cinema is better than copying the D-Nice settings without performing his aging procedure.


Larry
post #2315 of 3317
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

The default THX Cinema is better than copying the D-Nice settings without performing his aging procedure.

What would make your experiment meaningful is a largish sample of sets that followed the "aging procedure" and those that did not, measured after 100 hours and then at, say, 500, 1000, 2000, or until they settle down. Has this ever been done? Meanwhile, there is another guy who has done the experiment of plugging settings for one TV into other TVs and found only 4% chance of improvement.
post #2316 of 3317
Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

What would make your experiment meaningful is a largish sample of sets that followed the "aging procedure" and those that did not, measured after 100 hours and then at, say, 500, 1000, 2000, or until they settle down. Has this ever been done? Meanwhile, there is another guy who has done the experiment of plugging settings for one TV into other TVs and found only 4% chance of improvement.


I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Indeed, we understand the scientific method and statistics but we are talking about the D-Nice settings specifically. I don't know of anyone who has done a "largish" sample for this.

The Panasonic plasmas that I have owned, nine so far, all have been rock stable from 300 or so hours up to 3,500 hours. That's a lot of on-time.

Michael did some empirical investigation and his results on a somewhat limited number of test subjects and showed about a 4% success level -- but what conditions defined success, I do not know.

I presented the data above to show that the THX Cinema may be the best choice.

Larry
post #2317 of 3317
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Indeed, we understand the scientific method and statistics but we are talking about the D-Nice settings specifically. I don't know of anyone who has done a "largish" sample for this.

A sample size of one is statistically meaningless. The null hypothesis is that "the slides" have no value, and AFAIK, this has not been disproven. If you're going to try to elevate this discussion to science and statistics, it would be good to include some.
post #2318 of 3317
Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

A sample size of one is statistically meaningless. The null hypothesis is that "the slides" have no value, and AFAIK, this has not been disproven. If you're going to try to elevate this discussion to science and statistics, it would be good to include some.

Fine. Since I have stated no scientific conclusion from my data, I will wait for your contribution to the the statistical data after you have repeated my simple experiment. biggrin.gif


Till then ...
Larry
Edited by LarryInRI - 12/1/13 at 3:57pm
post #2319 of 3317
What is Picture Mode: Professional 1 / 2? I don't see this on my ZT60 as a picture mode option? I'm trying to find the recommended ZT60 picture settings after running D-Nice's slides. Thanks in advance!!!
post #2320 of 3317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Payton3485 View Post

What is Picture Mode: Professional 1 / 2? I don't see this on my ZT60 as a picture mode option? I'm trying to find the recommended ZT60 picture settings after running D-Nice's slides. Thanks in advance!!!

Menu > Setup > Professional mode (isfccc) > On


Larry
post #2321 of 3317
Thanks so much!!!
post #2322 of 3317
Still in THX and warm 1 Larry?
post #2323 of 3317
And, BTW, thanks, it's nice to see some actual settings on this settings thread for a change.
post #2324 of 3317
I, for one, would love to see more people's results in both slided and non slided sets in THX mode,
just to see how similar or different these sets really are.
Please note your color temperature when you do this.
post #2325 of 3317
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

5) It follows that any TV of the same model -- after bring subjected to exactly the same aging technique and after applying the setting values -- will exhibit a grayscale very close to the actual calibrated TV.

6) The same logic holds for the color and gamma settings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

The methodology that D-Nice uses is based on engineering principles not vagaries.
...
So, if you follow his aging procedure and then copy his settings, theoretically with all else being equal his setting should be the optimum for your unit. Since the phosphors continue to age after the initial 100 hours, if his aging method was not used his settings will never be right for your TV even if you view mixed content for a long period of time -- theoretically again, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

To make an important point yet again: Here is a comparison between The default THX Cinema picture mode and the D-Nice settings copied to one of my Professional modes. I did not follow the aging procedure that D-Nice recommends. The measurements were made on my 65VT60. I did not repeat it on my 60VT60.
...
The default THX Cinema is better than copying the D-Nice settings without performing his aging procedure.

Should have run those slides, bub! biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

A sample size of one is statistically meaningless. The null hypothesis is that "the slides" have no value, and AFAIK, this has not been disproven. If you're going to try to elevate this discussion to science and statistics, it would be good to include some.

Fine. Since I have stated no scientific conclusion from my data, I will wait for your contribution to the the statistical data after you have repeated my simple experiment. biggrin.gif

I'm just trying to understand why you seem to believe in the "aging procedure" so much and why you believe the settings determined for one TV are transferrable to another. You have even described it as being based on "engineering principles" and have posted your negative outcome, complete with graphs, after you didn't follow them. I guess you don't have any information on reproducibility, or you would have posted it. It would be nice if D-Nice were to follow up his "reference settings" posts with updates as to how well they did in the real world on his calibration tours. That would do some justice to your "engineering principles" premise. There's no end user data on it AFAIK, because the people who follow the procedure tend not to have the equipment to determine if it did them any good. Absent this data, and hearing many reports of "red push" when D-Nice ST60 settings are applied to ST60s, the story ends here as far as I'm concerned:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

You generally have a less than 4% chance of doing better than the stock settings in the cinema/movie mode when you plug in random values from someone else. Which also means you have a greater than 96% chance of winding up no better than stock or with something worse than stock.

Now the only way people are going to know if they lucked out and made it into that 4% club is to have instrumentation to verify the result. This is a catch-22 of course. If you have the gear, why would you plug in random numbers? biggrin.gif

So people that plug in the numbers are not able to verify anything and it simply becomes just a game of finding something you like ... and that has nothing to do with what calibration is about. Even if they were in the 4% club ... it wouldn't matter one bit because they would not know it. There is no special detector built into humans that goes off when presented with an accurate image. People do not inherently recognize what a good image actually is. Education is always needed.

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2012/12/the-fruits-of-copying-settings-the-pioneer-lottery/

This article is about what actually happens when people plug random numbers into their TVs.

I've said it before; I think "the slides" amount to a prank on the community, as there is no data I'm aware of to back up they do any good WRT to the "reference settings" or have any effect on how a TV measures (say) 1000 hours out vs. not running them, there is contrary data to the idea that settings are transferrable, and 90% of any plasma thread is made up of people asking if they can watch a little TV while they're in the "slides period", if it would be better to run them for 300 hours, etc etc etc, and there are numerous reports of "red push" when the "reference settings" are applied. Given the apparent absence of data that it works, how did it come to pass that so many people take it for granted this is something you do when you buy a plasma, and why do a number of people promote it endlessly, thus perpetuating it?
post #2326 of 3317
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Back in the days of the Pioneer Kuro, D-Nice maintained that the variance tolerance was 5% based on information from Pioneer. I don't recall him posting similar information for plasmas from other manufacturers. I've always assumed that the variance is greater.

The variance is definitely greater with the 2 Panasonic's I have owned. With D-Nices settings the 60ST50 was too red overall and the 60ST60 was way off in all areas of the greyscale. In contrast my 500M looked fantastic using his settings. For ST60 owners who can't afford a professional calibration I suggest plugging in various posted settings to see how they look. All of the settings I tried looked horrible except for Michael Chen's which happen to look great on my TV. A good way to check settings is use the AVS HD 709 download or a disc like Spear and Munsil or Disney WOW. For stocks settings on the ST60 the Home Theater Mode looked the best with the contrast dialed down to the upper70's for night time viewing.
post #2327 of 3317
sawfish,

You totally miss my point. But just to clear it up, I do not recommend or endorse the use of break-in slides. Just because I attempt to explain the method used by D-Nice does not mean that I use break-in slides. The only time that I used them was on my 2009 Panasonic 42 inch (or was it my 50 inch?) X1 model to see how well they worked. If you do a search in this forum, you can see the results.

Larry
post #2328 of 3317
Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post



I've said it before; I think "the slides" amount to a prank on the community, as there is no data I'm aware of to back up they do any good WRT to the "reference settings" or have any effect on how a TV measures (say) 1000 hours out vs. not running them, there is contrary data to the idea that settings are transferrable, and 90% of any plasma thread is made up of people asking if they can watch a little TV while they're in the "slides period", if it would be better to run them for 300 hours, etc etc etc, and there are numerous reports of "red push" when the "reference settings" are applied. Given the apparent absence of data that it works, how did it come to pass that so many people take it for granted this is something you do when you buy a plasma, and why do a number of people promote it endlessly, thus perpetuating it?

+1
Edited by fcb - 12/1/13 at 8:32pm
post #2329 of 3317
Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post



Should have run those slides, bub! biggrin.gif
I'm just trying to understand why you seem to believe in the "aging procedure" so much and why you believe the settings determined for one TV are transferrable to another. You have even described it as being based on "engineering principles" and have posted your negative outcome, complete with graphs, after you didn't follow them. I guess you don't have any information on reproducibility, or you would have posted it. It would be nice if D-Nice were to follow up his "reference settings" posts with updates as to how well they did in the real world on his calibration tours. That would do some justice to your "engineering principles" premise. There's no end user data on it AFAIK, because the people who follow the procedure tend not to have the equipment to determine if it did them any good. Absent this data, and hearing many reports of "red push" when D-Nice ST60 settings are applied to ST60s, the story ends here as far as I'm concerned:
I've said it before; I think "the slides" amount to a prank on the community, as there is no data I'm aware of to back up they do any good WRT to the "reference settings" or have any effect on how a TV measures (say) 1000 hours out vs. not running them, there is contrary data to the idea that settings are transferrable, and 90% of any plasma thread is made up of people asking if they can watch a little TV while they're in the "slides period", if it would be better to run them for 300 hours, etc etc etc, and there are numerous reports of "red push" when the "reference settings" are applied. Given the apparent absence of data that it works, how did it come to pass that so many people take it for granted this is something you do when you buy a plasma, and why do a number of people promote it endlessly, thus perpetuating it?

Prank? try the other P...for Preference....taking an analogy to the extreme...some wake up in the morning and turn on the tv, the old black and white CRT that has no remote or the 65VT60...some wake up and jump out the window, prior to that they go into the pro settings, change gamma, etc.....no slides = waking up and turning on tv...slides = jumping out the window. Neither has to do either...but in between there are literally infinite choices and preferences...you decide. smile.gif And as exact as science is, we are going for accuracy, not precision due to variables explained. So we have subjective preference and science objectivity combining to drive us all a bit loony...or as some might call it enthusiasts. biggrin.gif
post #2330 of 3317
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

sawfish,

You totally miss my point. But just to clear it up, I do not recommend or endorse the use of break-in slides. Just because I attempt to explain the method used by D-Nice does not mean that I use break-in slides. The only time that I used them was on my 2009 Panasonic 42 inch (or was it my 50 inch?) X1 model to see how well they worked. If you do a search in this forum, you can see the results.

Larry

Please forgive me for misinterpreting. You seem to have had a fondness for writing about it at length for years, you've spoken about it in ways that would seem to promote it as sound ("engineering principles" and so forth), you've written a message about the negative consequences of not following the "aging procedure", and I haven't noticed any disclaimer that there is no data to demonstrate that it works, nor have I seen you mention there is data that demonstrates that settings aren't reliably transferrable. I think it's pretty reasonable to interpret all this as promoting the method, but if that was not your intent, my bad. Perhaps the author of the method should be left to explain it instead of others appearing to carry the torch for it, and then if he doesn't, maybe the message board traffic about it would begin to abate. Many threads get started about it, and it finds its way into many unrelated threads. At the very least, explanations should come with the aforementioned disclaimers, don't you think?
post #2331 of 3317
Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

Please forgive me for misinterpreting. You seem to have had a fondness for writing about it at length for years, you've spoken about it in ways that would seem to promote it as sound ("engineering principles" and so forth), you've written a message about the negative consequences of not following the "aging procedure", and I haven't noticed any disclaimer that there is no data to demonstrate that it works, nor have I seen you mention there is data that demonstrates that settings aren't reliably transferrable. I think it's pretty reasonable to interpret all this as promoting the method, but if that was not your intent, my bad. Perhaps the author of the method should be left to explain it instead of others appearing to carry the torch for it, and then if he doesn't, maybe the message board traffic about it would begin to abate. Many threads get started about it, and it finds its way into many unrelated threads. At the very least, explanations should come with the aforementioned disclaimers, don't you think?


It's your bad. And you are making a fool of yourself. I'm not playing this silly game anymore.


B-bye,
Larry
post #2332 of 3317
No, sawfish is closer to being factual. The only thing that is correct in this board is that yes you need to put at-least 300 hours on the VT60 and even then there is no why to tell if in fact all three primaries RGB have really stabilized. But this is something that has been posted and talked as long as I have been on AVS in 2006, along with the aging chart.
Just to show what a waste of time this board and is mostly based on nothing, here are 2 Charts and corresponding numbers (much more detail) for D-Nices Professional i night settings and THX Cinema default mode for the VT60.

D-Nice uses Calman 5 Pro and a Klein K10 (don't now if it is the new K10-A). I used Calman 5 Pro and a Klein K10-A on my 65VT60 for the below charts and numbers. The other carts that were posted are more of a generic comparison, because the software that was used is the free calibration software and the meter was probably id3. I also did use D-Nice posted slides for about 160 hours, but that was only to exhilarate the run in time so I could do a complete 4913 color point Profile/LUT Cube calibration.

D-Nice-Professional 1


THX Cinema.



ss
post #2333 of 3317
Here is the other variable that D-Nice didn't say, what Gamma Formula he used with Calman 5 Pro. The above post uses the ITU BT.!886 Gamma Formula, The Charts and numbers posted below in this post uses the Power Gamma Formula. In both posts I used a target gamma of 2.2.

D-Nice-Professional 1



THX Cinema



ss
post #2334 of 3317
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

****UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE SHOULD THESE SETTINGS BE USED WITH ANY OTHER SOURCE MATERIAL BEYOND THE PANEL PREP USB/SD CARD FILES****

Recommended 100 Hour Panel Prep Settings for North American Panasonic TC-PxxS60/ST60/VT60/ZT60 models (ONLY to be used with USB/SD Card Files attached below!!!!!!!!)

*****Note: This procedure is designed to prepare your display for the reference settings listed for each 2013 North American Panasonic model below by aging all pixels equally with the same content. This procedure is NOT designed nor recommended to be used as Break-in, Image Retention and/or Burn-in prevention.*****

Photo Settings

Picture Mode: Custom
***Leave all settings at their default***

Slideshow Settings

Frame: Off
Photo Effect: Off
Transition Effect: Off
Photo Size: Normal
Burst Playback: Off
Display Interval: Long
Repeat Playback: On

Panel Prep Slides:
2013_Panel_Prep_Slides.zip 4k .zip file

Sorry if I am an amateur with this....can someone please give me details on how to download these slides?  When I unzip the file I see 12 .jpg files...do I download each file to a dvd or usb flashdrive?  Thanks in advance.

post #2335 of 3317
Quote:
Originally Posted by srg914 View Post

Sorry if I am an amateur with this....can someone please give me details on how to download these slides?  When I unzip the file I see 12 .jpg files...do I download each file to a dvd or usb flashdrive?  Thanks in advance.

You can put the slides onto a USB flash drive or SD card and plug it into the TV. To setup the slides show, Bond 007 gave these directions which were very handy to me. I would recommend using a blank flash drive/SD card.
post #2336 of 3317
Well I finally get to use my 60VT60 now that the slides are done (I was away for the holiday so it worked out perfectly for timing) and as I sat down to input the settings from post two... I noticed they are only for ST60. Is there a final consensus on what settings to use for the VT60? Has D-Nice posted else where the settings? I am thinking about using the C-Net settings for now, or just use the Disney WOW disc to get rolling... but was kind of set on D-Nice settings to start with.
post #2337 of 3317
Ok after some digging I found this post by Larry. hope this helps others in the same boat as I was!
post #2338 of 3317
Quote:
Originally Posted by srg914 View Post

Sorry if I am an amateur with this....can someone please give me details on how to download these slides?  When I unzip the file I see 12 .jpg files...do I download each file to a dvd or usb flashdrive?  Thanks in advance.


Get a cheap USB card and copy/paste the file with the slides onto the card, plug the card into the ST60 and then press the SD/USB button on the remote to start. At least you unzipped the file first, that was a good start. Hope you'll have the same good fortune as I did by using the slides and DNce's Custom Mode settings. DNice is a Godsend and the AVS naysayers,,, not so much. smile.gif
post #2339 of 3317
Quote:
Originally Posted by nehmia View Post

Well I finally get to use my 60VT60 now that the slides are done (I was away for the holiday so it worked out perfectly for timing) and as I sat down to input the settings from post two... I noticed they are only for ST60. Is there a final consensus on what settings to use for the VT60? Has D-Nice posted else where the settings? I am thinking about using the C-Net settings for now, or just use the Disney WOW disc to get rolling... but was kind of set on D-Nice settings to start with.




You'll find DNice's ST60, VT60, ZT60 settings here; http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=939
post #2340 of 3317
Quote:
Originally Posted by nehmia View Post


You can put the slides onto a USB flash drive or SD card and plug it into the TV. To setup the slides show, Bond 007 gave these directions which were very handy to me. I would recommend using a blank flash drive/SD card.

Thanks very much...I was able to burn to a dvd and run it in my Blu-ray player....don't know if I can do it that way....it runs through each slide on a loop, but after each slide "loading" comes up on the screen for a second...is this bad?  would a usb drive not show "loading"?

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