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Double bass and bass management - Page 2

post #31 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

So the Onks have a fixed low pass for the double bass setting, of unknown value. They still have to low pass (at some frequency) to keep the 20KHz stuff out of the sub . . .
Sounds like it basically defeats any user crossover settings and replaces it with whatever the factory default is.
post #32 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Actually, based on many personal room measurements, your above is fact, not opinion. tongue.gif
Currently, our mains and center channel are crossed over at 40Hz and the surrounds are crossed over at 60Hz (mains large, center channel and surrounds, small, LFE+Mains @ 120Hz) all settings have been verified by countless room readings to provide the strongest/tightest measurement. No room treatments allowed.
Your description is contradictory to your settings. You say you're not using "Double Bass", but you're using "LFE+Mains," which IS "Double Bass." confused.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

If a few days, a third sub will arrive and I'll play with this third sub to see how a third sub impacts a particular life sucking, 80Hz null I can't get rid of. eek.gif
If you've set crossovers of 40 Hz and 60 Hz, your efforts to fix a null at 80 Hz with another subwoofer will be ineffective. The subs aren't getting much content at 80 Hz. That content is going to the speakers. Your better bet would be to adjust your speaker positions to try to fix the 80 Hz content. Alternatively, you could raise your crossovers to 80 Hz and then the subs will be more active at that frequency range.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

So far, where the rubber meets the road, the only things I've found that aren't out to lunch are, Audyssey, DSPeaker, (Anti-Mode), REW and a way cool sound level meter I found that didn't come from Radio Shack. Everything else is subjective personal opinion or blarney and if one likes going crazy, needs to be taken with a grain of salt. cool.gif

I've found, part of the bass management problem lies in the fact that most don't understand the purpose of LFE and that it's an "effect" not a constant source sound. If one approaches the LFE channel from the view that it's suppose to be heard 24/7, then the LFE channel is not being set up properly. Then there's this whole "reference" thingy that's not being held to real world standards and I find the use of which is being abused as opposed to being respected and not used for it's intent, headroom for momentary "effect."

The point of the above babbling, it was very gratifying to read what you posted in your above, or if you will, your words were the proverbial breath of fresh air. tongue.gif

-
I don't know what any of this "babbling" means. confused.gif

Craig
post #33 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I don't know what any of this "babbling" means. confused.gif
Craig
Join the crowd. rolleyes.gif
Have you read any of the stuff I posted about my settings? I would like to know what you think even if its that Im lost and crazy.
post #34 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

For 2.0 music I run my sub very hot and I have the avr xover at 100. Sub xover at 105. And with the built in eq of the avr I boost the towers +4 at 100Hz and set the towers to large. This gives me significant bass from the towers and removes localization and provides a smoother response as well as helps to avoid nulls or valleys in the room.
Particularly this Craig. I have a Yamaha 671 with the "Extra Bass" on for what its worth. I do not use these settings for theater (anything 5.1).
Edited by Bond 007 - 4/3/13 at 4:19pm
post #35 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Join the crowd. rolleyes.gif
Have you read any of the stuff I posted about my settings? I would like to know what you think even if its that Im lost and crazy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

For 2.0 music I run my sub very hot and I have the avr xover at 100. Sub xover at 105. And with the built in eq of the avr I boost the towers +4 at 100Hz and set the towers to large. This gives me significant bass from the towers and removes localization and provides a smoother response as well as helps to avoid nulls or valleys in the room.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Particularly this Craig. I have a Yamaha 671 with the "Extra Bass" on for what its worth. I do not use these settings for theater (anything 5.1).
I guess it depends on what kind of music you listen to and how you prefer your bass. Those would not be my "preferred" settings, but if you like them, go for it. I hope your neighbors don't mind. smile.gif

Do you have the ability to measure your system? You might find that you have a big recession at 100 Hz and there might be better ways to fix it than all that boost.

Craig
post #36 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

But if you set speakers to large and double bass then you can't select a crossover. So how can there be bass management? I don't understand.
Any channels set to SMALL are still bass managed appropriately.

Regarding what front channel bass is sent, in duplicate, to the subwoofer, with the double bass setting, there IS a low-pass frequency that will be used by the AVR. What that might be is anyone's guess. But there IS a cutoff. The full range front channel is not sent to the subwoofer. On some AVR's, you may still be able to set a crossover setting for the front channels when using the double bass setting and this would dictate which front channel frequencies are duplicated at the sub. On an AVR with a single, global crossover setting, and with some of the other channels still set to SMALL, that setting probably dictates what front channel frequecies are duplicated at the sub, as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

.....................but if all speakers are set to large and double bass is set to on then???
Then the only "bass management" that would be occurring would be the duplication of the front channel bass, below some frequency, at the subwoofer.

And, of course, if you want to consider it "bass management", the LFE channel would still be sent, properly, to the subwoofer.
Edited by sivadselim - 4/3/13 at 5:14pm
post #37 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post



I guess it depends on what kind of music you listen to and how you prefer your bass. Those would not be my "preferred" settings, but if you like them, go for it. I hope your neighbors don't mind. smile.gif

Do you have the ability to measure your system? You might find that you have a big recession at 100 Hz and there might be better ways to fix it than all that boost.

Craig
Thanks for the response. No, I have no way to measure. What makes you think I might be lacking at the 100 Hz point? I figured since the crossover is a soft target that would be the last place I would be lacking. With me boosting it at 100 with the eq for the mains and also setting the sub cross at 105 to try to make sure that I wasnt missing any overlap. What am I doing wrong?
btw I mostly listen to music fairly low. Thats why I run it so hot. If I run it properly for loud volume then I get very little bass at the volumes I usually listen to. And if I do listen loud then I turn the sub volume down in the AVR?
Edited by Bond 007 - 4/3/13 at 5:04pm
post #38 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Thanks for the response. No, I have no way to measure. What makes you think I might be lacking at the 100 Hz point? I figured since the crossover is a soft target that would be the last place I would be lacking. With me boosting it at 100 with the eq for the mains and also setting the sub cross at 105 to try to make sure that I wasnt missing any overlap. What am I doing wrong?
The only reason I thought you might have a recession at 100 Hz is because you feel the need to boost at that frequency range. If you're just doing it because you like it, that's fine.

OTOH, it's not unheard of to have a recession around the crossover frequency if your subwoofer(s) are not properly in phase with your speakers. However, it's hard to tell if that's the case without some measurement capability. If your Yamaha has YPAO, and you ran it what did it set your subwoofer Distance at? Did you keep it or change it? What is the actual, physical distance of the sub(s) to your listening position? What sub(s) do you have?

Craig
post #39 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Any channels set to SMALL are still bass managed appropriately.

Regarding what front channel bass is sent, in duplicate, to the subwoofer, with the double bass setting, there IS a low-pass frequency that will be used by the AVR. What that might be is anyone's guess. But there IS a cutoff. The full range front channel is not sent to the subwoofer. On some AVR's, you may still be able to set a crossover setting for the front channels when using the double bass setting and this would dictate which front channel frequencies are duplicated at the sub. On an AVR with a single, global crossover setting, and with some of the other channels still set to SMALL, that setting probably dictates what front channel frequecies are duplicated at the sub, as well.
Then the only "bass management" that would be occurring would be the duplication of the front channel bass, below some frequency, at the subwoofer.
Now Im confused. All this talk about Onkyo and Denon has my head spinning. I am going to have to take a good,look at my Yamaha manual. If I am sending signals all the way down to who knows (20) by setting my speakers to large and having "Extra Bass" on then I need to rethink this whole thing.
post #40 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

The only reason I thought you might have a recession at 100 Hz is because you feel the need to boost at that frequency range. If you're just doing it because you like it, that's fine.

OTOH, it's not unheard of to have a recession around the crossover frequency if your subwoofer(s) are not properly in phase with your speakers. However, it's hard to tell if that's the case without some measurement capability. If your Yamaha has YPAO, and you ran it what did it set your subwoofer Distance at? Did you keep it or change it? What is the actual, physical distance of the sub(s) to your listening position? What sub(s) do you have?

Craig
This is where it could get tricky and if you want to give up on me I understand. I boosted at 100 because I figured the mains would need it to keep up with the 100 output of the sub.
Physical distance of Klipsch RW-12d is 3ft. YPAO set it at 10.5ft. eek.gif . I kept that distance. YPAO set the avr crossover at 120 with the RW at 120, sub volume to -1.5 (with the RW set at -26) eek.gif, and the mains to Large. Surrounds to small.
I have turned the rw up to -6 smile.gif. And changed both xovers to 100. Keep in mind this is only for 2.0 music.
post #41 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Now Im confused. All this talk about Onkyo and Denon has my head spinning. I am going to have to take a good,look at my Yamaha manual. If I am sending signals all the way down to who knows (20) by setting my speakers to large and having "Extra Bass" on then I need to rethink this whole thing.
If your speakers are set to Large, they're getting a Full Range signal. This is often not the best idea. Paul Scarpelli just wrote an excellent set of posts over in the Triad thread about crossovers and why they're beneficial. It would probably be a good place for you to start: http://www.avsforum.com/t/921427/triad-owners-thread/4950#post_23159343 and http://www.avsforum.com/t/921427/triad-owners-thread/4950#post_23160950

Craig
post #42 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Any channels set to SMALL are still bass managed appropriately.

Regarding what front channel bass is sent, in duplicate, to the subwoofer, with the double bass setting, there IS a low-pass frequency that will be used by the AVR. What that might be is anyone's guess. But there IS a cutoff. The full range front channel is not sent to the subwoofer. On some AVR's, you may still be able to set a crossover setting for the front channels when using the double bass setting and this would dictate which front channel frequencies are duplicated at the sub. On an AVR with a single, global crossover setting, and with some of the other channels still set to SMALL, that setting probably dictates what front channel frequecies are duplicated at the sub, as well.
Then the only "bass management" that would be occurring would be the duplication of the front channel bass, below some frequency, at the subwoofer.

And, of course, if you want to consider it "bass management", the LFE channel would still be sent, properly, to the subwoofer.

Where ya been buddy?

Craig
post #43 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

If your speakers are set to Large, they're getting a Full Range signal. This is often not the best idea. Paul Scarpelli just wrote an excellent set of posts over in the Triad thread about crossovers and why they're beneficial. It would probably be a good place for you to start: http://www.avsforum.com/t/921427/triad-owners-thread/4950#post_23159343 and http://www.avsforum.com/t/921427/triad-owners-thread/4950#post_23160950

Craig
Then I do need to rethink this. I was under the impression that nothing below 100 was going to the mains. It sounds pretty darn good though the way I have it. smile.gif Thats why these forums can be a double edged sword sometimes.
post #44 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

No. When you use double bass (i.e. LFE+Main), bass management is still in effect for the subwoofer. If your crossover is set to 80hz, the sub is getting nothing above that crossover point.
What are you saying Beeman?? You agree with McStyvie when he says to never use double bass, but then you say you are using double bass...?? confused.gif


Personally, I have measured my room with double bass on and off. It measures better with double bass on, and sounds much better to my ears. I'm gonna keep my double bass on, I don't care what anyone says! cool.gifbiggrin.gif

I'm saying that Audyssey made recommendations to the AVR and the AVR set internal settings to the above and when checked against REW, room measurements showed the Audyssey recommendations to be the best choice of settings.

My apologies if I confused. I didn't see any confusion with what I quoted and then responded to. Maybe if I just quote this part?

Quote:
LFE is tricky and you are more likely to muddy your bass and affect room modes and create nulls than you are to help it in any way. JMHO.

Yes, I find LFE and bass management to be tricky. I find that increasing Audyssey recommended crossover points, create conditions of reinforcement; both positive and negative.

I see dips develop and sympathetic nulls (harmonics) deepen because of the dips that develop due to increases in crossover settings.

Overall, I find LFE to be very sensitive or tricky if you will. I don't see crossing over at 40Hz, just above the limit of the mains (lower limit is 35Hz) and crossing over the center channel (lower limit is 59Hz) at 40Hz as doubling up the bass as the crossovers are being set at the extreme lower limits of each; the mains and the center channel. Basically, there's no bass at these crossover points to double up. Might be why I didn't see a conflict in my comment.

An aside, I do find the AVR amplifier can't handle the load when set in this fashion and as the action sound track increases in SPL, I can literally hear the capacitors drain as the speaker system volume drains to the back ground. Hence the "NEED" for a separate amplifier such as an Emotiva, XPA-5. Well, that's a next year item as that's another $900.00.

Again, sorry for the confusion as it's safe to say, in this case, clearly, one had to be in my head to understand what I was sharing. tongue.gif

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 4/3/13 at 6:24pm
post #45 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

This is where it could get tricky and if you want to give up on me I understand. I boosted at 100 because I figured the mains would need it to keep up with the 100 output of the sub.
Physical distance of Klipsch RW-12d is 3ft. YPAO set it at 10.5ft. eek.gif . I kept that distance. YPAO set the avr crossover at 120 with the RW at 120, sub volume to -1.5 (with the RW set at -26) eek.gif, and the mains to Large. Surrounds to small.
I have turned the rw up to -6 smile.gif. And changed both xovers to 100. Keep in mind this is only for 2.0 music.
The Distance setting is probably correct. The "extra" distance is to account for any latency in the sub amp.

I don't understand this: "sub volume to -1.5 (with the RW set at -26) eek.gif" Does this mean the RW-12d's amp was set to -26 and the subwoofer trim in the receiver was set to -1.5? Did you then turn up the RW12d amp from -26 to 6? Is that a dB scale? If it is and you turned the sub amp up 20 dB, that is a MASSIVELY hot setting. You have the sub set to be 4 times as loud as the rest of the speakers. More importantly, you are using over 100 times the amp power and driver excursion at those levels!!! I would be worried about the long term health of your sub at that setting.

The fact that you feel the need to boost your settings this much tells me there is some cancellation going on in your room and/or your system. You would really benefit from some capability to measure your response.

Craig
post #46 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

The Distance setting is probably correct. The "extra" distance is to account for any latency in the sub amp.

I don't understand this: "sub volume to -1.5 (with the RW set at -26) eek.gif" Does this mean the RW-12d's amp was set to -26 and the subwoofer trim in the receiver was set to -1.5? Did you then turn up the RW12d amp from -26 to 6? Is that a dB scale? If it is and you turned the sub amp up 20 dB, that is a MASSIVELY hot setting. You have the sub set to be 4 times as loud as the rest of the speakers. More importantly, you are using over 100 times the amp power and driver excursion at those levels!!! I would be worried about the long term health of your sub at that setting.

The fact that you feel the need to boost your settings this much tells me there is some cancellation going on in your room and/or your system. You would really benefit from some capability to measure your response.

Craig
lol All that is correct except I turned the RW up from -26dB to -6dB. It goes up to +10. It is overbassed but not insanely so to my ears. Keep in mind that, as I stated before, I listen at low volume most of the time (between -65 and -35). When I turn it above -35 on a rare occasion then I turn the sub volume down in the AVR. The sub amp has never felt remotely hot.
Also when YPAO sets the levels that is without use of the 7 band graphic eq built in to the Yam 671. So you have to take into account that all the other speakers are being boosted to some extent after my eq settings are applied.
Everything you say is true though. But it may not be as bad as it seems. I know its difficult to evaluate a system over the internet. I would like to be able to measure. I may look into it soon out of curiosity if nothing else. But I have decided to leave everything as it is because it has been that way for a while and everyone says it sounds great.
Thank you very much for your time. It is appreciated.
post #47 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

lol All that is correct except I turned the RW up from -26dB to -6dB. It goes up to +10. It is overbassed but not insanely so to my ears. Keep in mind that, as I stated before, I listen at low volume most of the time (between -65 and -35). When I turn it above -35 on a rare occasion then I turn the sub volume down in the AVR. The sub amp has never felt remotely hot.
Also when YPAO sets the levels that is without use of the 7 band graphic eq built in to the Yam 671. So you have to take into account that all the other speakers are being boosted to some extent after my eq settings are applied.
Everything you say is true though. But it may not be as bad as it seems. I know its difficult to evaluate a system over the internet. I would like to be able to measure. I may look into it soon out of curiosity if nothing else. But I have decided to leave everything as it is because it has been that way for a while and everyone says it sounds great.
Thank you very much for your time. It is appreciated.
OK. At -65 to -35, you won't have any problems, even with your "extreme" subwoofer settings. I didn't see that you were listening at these lower levels. At those levels, a big bass boost would be the "normal" compensation for human hearing deficiencies at lower frequencies. (See "Fletcher-Munson Curves.")

However, if you ever do turn it up, be very careful with the Master Volume Control. Your subwoofer could be at risk with those settings.

Craig
post #48 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

OK. At -65 to -35, you won't have any problems, even with your "extreme" subwoofer settings. I didn't see that you were listening at these lower levels. At those levels, a big bass boost would be the "normal" compensation for human hearing deficiencies at lower frequencies. (See "Fletcher-Munson Curves.")

However, if you ever do turn it up, be very careful with the Master Volume Control. Your subwoofer could be at risk with those settings.

Craig
Thanks. That makes me feel better. I have the "Max Volume" set at -15. Do you think that is acceptable? I live in an apt so really -35 is too loud but I like to jam on a song or 2 every once in a while during the middle of the day. If my neighbor says anything I tell him its a "system check". biggrin.gif Hes got a junk system and plays his loud a lot more than I do.

Now that you have said something I took max volume down to -25. I never turn it up past that anyway.
Edited by Bond 007 - 4/3/13 at 8:16pm
post #49 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Thanks. That makes me feel better. I have the "Max Volume" set at -15. Do you think that is acceptable? I live in an apt so really -35 is too loud but I like to jam on a song or 2 every once in a while during the middle of the day. If my neighbor says anything I tell him its a "system check". biggrin.gif
With the sub 20 dB "hot", even at -15 on the MVC, you're sub is still at +5 dB with respect to Reference Level. That is a lot of stress on a sub that is marginally capable of Reference Level. I would be *very* careful at -15 MVC with your sub set 20 dB hot. Do you even like the sound of the bass when you turn it up that loud? I think I would find the bass overwhelming, and probably distorted and compressed with those settings. I run my subs a few dB hot, but I listen at louder levels than you do. Relatively speaking, my subs are still lower than yours, even when my system is playing louder than yours.

Craig
post #50 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

With the sub 20 dB "hot", even at -15 on the MVC, you're sub is still at +5 dB with respect to Reference Level. That is a lot of stress on a sub that is marginally capable of Reference Level. I would be *very* careful at -15 MVC with your sub set 20 dB hot. Do you even like the sound of the bass when you turn it up that loud? I think I would find the bass overwhelming, and probably distorted and compressed with those settings. I run my subs a few dB hot, but I listen at louder levels than you do. Relatively speaking, my subs are still lower than yours, even when my system is playing louder than yours.

Craig
See my edit above. No, like I said, when I turn it up past anything like -35 it is rare and not for long but I also turn down the sub volume in the AVR. Or it would sound terrible. The sub volume in AVR is usually 0 so if I turn it down to -10 it sounds fine. Thanks for telling me my limitations though. That is very important info.
post #51 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

See my edit above. No, like I said, when I turn it up past anything like -35 it is rare and not for long but I also turn down the sub volume in the AVR. Or it would sound terrible. The sub volume in AVR is usually 0 so if I turn it down to -10 it sounds fine. Thanks for telling me my limitations though. That is very important info.

Great! Now, let's let the OP have his thread back! smile.gif
post #52 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Great! Now, let's let the OP have his thread back! smile.gif
biggrin.gif I cant tell you how much I appreciate your help. I know you know your stuff. Thats why I kinda jumped on the chance to pick your brain.

My apologies to the OP.
post #53 of 238
No problem. Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions.

Craig
Edited by craig john - 4/4/13 at 5:27am
post #54 of 238
Thread Starter 
So we agree that double bass is not a good thing for all people? smile.gif What confuses me is that according to Denon the LFE+Main can be used if speakers are set to Small, at least that is what I gathered on the first page. Not sure how that would work.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed. Much appreciated!
post #55 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

So we agree that double bass is not a good thing for all people? :)Not sure how that would work.

What I need to know....does adding a third sub......qualify as "double" bass? tongue.gif

In ignorance, I'm a firm believer in the idea that a poorly set up subwoofer system, robs a pair of subwoofers of much of their mid-bass slam, causing folks to find the need to turn up the bass.

According to UPS, our third sub will arrive sometime today and once properly integrated into our room's acoustics, I expect to learn the truth regarding my above comment.

(put your money down, spin the wheel, play the game, nobody's a loser but.....not everybody's a winner)

Come on 7's, daddy has a null he wants to fill. tongue.gif

(without room measurements, there's no hope)

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 4/4/13 at 9:26am
post #56 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

No problem. Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions.

Craig
Thanks! You may regret that offer. biggrin.gif
post #57 of 238
A quick top 5 of the most grating and redundant threads/topics on avs:

5. My receiver doesn't have enough power.

4. ID subs are better.

3. DIY subs are better.

2. ANYTHING regarding amps sounding "better" than others.

1. WTF is double bass?!

They can shift weekly, so please don't hold me to the precise order.

All in fun, men (and OP). Have a good one.

James
post #58 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

lol All that is correct except I turned the RW up from -26dB to -6dB. It goes up to +10. It is overbassed but not insanely so to my ears. Keep in mind that, as I stated before, I listen at low volume most of the time (between -65 and -35). When I turn it above -35 on a rare occasion then I turn the sub volume down in the AVR. The sub amp has never felt remotely hot.
Also when YPAO sets the levels that is without use of the 7 band graphic eq built in to the Yam 671. So you have to take into account that all the other speakers are being boosted to some extent after my eq settings are applied.
Everything you say is true though. But it may not be as bad as it seems. I know its difficult to evaluate a system over the internet. I would like to be able to measure. I may look into it soon out of curiosity if nothing else. But I have decided to leave everything as it is because it has been that way for a while and everyone says it sounds great.
Thank you very much for your time. It is appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

OK. At -65 to -35, you won't have any problems, even with your "extreme" subwoofer settings. I didn't see that you were listening at these lower levels. At those levels, a big bass boost would be the "normal" compensation for human hearing deficiencies at lower frequencies. (See "Fletcher-Munson Curves.")

However, if you ever do turn it up, be very careful with the Master Volume Control. Your subwoofer could be at risk with those settings.

Craig

Sounds to me like Bond would really like Audyssey's Dynamic EQ feature. biggrin.gif
post #59 of 238
The 'unknown value' of the subwoofer low pass when double bass is selected has always bothered me. Clearly the subwoofer is not getting a full-range duplicate signal for the L/R mains - it's getting low passed as some frequency.

Wouldn't be too hard to determine the actual low pass - just send a full-range FR sweep through the AVR front L/R inputs and then measure the result at the subwoofer output jack - the low pass will be evident.

Regardless, it would be nice if the AVR menu included a 'LPF for Double Bass' option, just like they do for the LFE channel (LPF for LFE).
post #60 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

The 'unknown value' of the subwoofer low pass when double bass is selected has always bothered me. Clearly the subwoofer is not getting a full-range duplicate signal for the L/R mains - it's getting low passed as some frequency.

Wouldn't be too hard to determine the actual low pass - just send a full-range FR sweep through the AVR front L/R inputs and then measure the result at the subwoofer output jack - the low pass will be evident.

In my opinion, your above creates a sort of sonic confusion in that when a sound track plays, all channels are engaged, not just the subwoofer or mains and in my opinion, a true representation is a combination of a +/-3dB subwoofer signal, properly integrated with all the other speakers, playing simultaneously.

The point being, I see people getting too microscopically myopic regarding subwoofers and in the process, lose sight of the end game, smooth, room based response, when all speakers are being fed, continuous, full spectrum, fast paced, action, sound track material.

...confused.gif
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