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Double bass and bass management - Page 4

post #91 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

So you are saying that LFE+Main is a good feature if you are using vented speakers/subwoofers?
He's saying it could perhaps maybe possibly if you hold your mouth right be a useful ("good" might be a stretch) "feature" (?) if you have (probably preferably capable on the low end) vented speakers.
Edited by sivadselim - 4/5/13 at 3:22pm
post #92 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

................no redeeming social value.
Senator Hollings? biggrin.gif
post #93 of 238
Quote:
I assume you are using the sub's own low-pass to adjust it to the front speakers' roll-off (or to your taste).

Yes but I’ve been all over the place with this. down to 60 and as high as 120. I’m pretty sure my mains go to 30. what’s your recommendation?
Quote:
So, does your AVR have front channel pre-outs? Does your sub have L and R line-level (RCA) inputs? If the answer is "yes" to both, you should probably connect your sub to the front channel pre-outs instead of using a speaker-level connection. Your bass scheme will still work the same. The same settings are applied to the front channel pre-outs as are applied to the front speaker-level outputs.

Im not seeing any preouts
http://usa.denon.com/DocumentMaster/US/AVR-2312CIE3_ENG_CD-ROM_v00.pdf

My sub has (“SPEAKER LEVEL IN”)
http://mediacdn.shopatron.com/media/mfg/3579/media_document/live_1/SW350450Manual.pdf?1288057259

Would there be any benefit from rewiring it the way you suggest?
post #94 of 238
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim 
He's saying it could perhaps maybe possibly if you hold your mouth right be a useful ("good" might be a stretch) "feature" (?) if you have (probably preferably capable on the low end) vented speakers.

That's a lot of if's, maybe's and probably's that Ed did not infer. What he said sounded more straight forward, not .. maybe ... if... but.... perhaps ... possibly... , you know, cryptic like your reply is.

BTW the sarcasm isn't warranted.
post #95 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by J e f f View Post

Yes but I’ve been all over the place with this. down to 60 and as high as 120. I’m pretty sure my mains go to 30. what’s your recommendation?
Measurements or by ear, to taste. You may actually like what you come up with by ear better than what measures best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J e f f View Post

Im not seeing any preouts
Yeah, you don't have 'em.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J e f f View Post

Would there be any benefit from rewiring it the way you suggest?
With no front channel pre-outs your only option if you want to use your scheme (subwoofer off) is to wire the sub paralleled off the front channels. You can do this by daisy-chaining the sub off your front speakers' inputs, the way you described you are doing it, or by simultaneously connecting the sub to the AVR's front channel speaker outputs. I would do whichever is easiest and/or the tidiest to wire. If you aren't already using them for surround back or Zone2 speakers, you might also be able to use the "Surround Back/Amp Assign" outputs to connect the sub in parallel to the front channels and accomplish your scheme.
post #96 of 238
Well I just ran the test on a legacy Denon 3803. This AVR applies a single 'global' crossover to all channels.

I set the mains to Large and the subwoofer mode to LFE+Main. I still had the option to adjust the 'crossover' for the mains. So I set it to 40, 60, 80 and 100 Hz and looped REW through the AVR analog inputs for input CD (i.e., 2-channel) and measured the subwoofer output. Sure enough the subwoofer response showed a variable low pass.

So at least on Denon AVRs (even legacy units), the 'crossover' setting when the mains are set to Large becomes a variable low pass filter for the subwoofer.
post #97 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

Well I just ran the test on a legacy Denon 3803. This AVR applies a single 'global' crossover to all channels.

I set the mains to Large and the subwoofer mode to LFE+Main. I still had the option to adjust the 'crossover' for the mains. So I set it to 40, 60, 80 and 100 Hz and looped REW through the AVR analog inputs for input CD (i.e., 2-channel) and measured the subwoofer output. Sure enough the subwoofer response showed a variable low pass.

So at least on Denon AVRs (even legacy units), the 'crossover' setting when the mains are set to Large becomes a variable low pass filter for the subwoofer.
Good to know as that is what I am still using, myself, albeit in a neutered frown.gif 2.0 setup right now. I couldn't remember whether the "crossover" setting was still available with LFE+Main or not. Thanks. Not really so useful with the global setting and smaller (than your fronts) center and/or surrounds, though, I guess.
post #98 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

BTW the sarcasm isn't warranted.
Sorry to offend. That was not my intent at all. Sarcastic, maybe, but not mean. More of a nerdy audiophile sarcasm. smile.gif

Point being, there are caveats. And it's a bit can o' wormish.
post #99 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

So you are saying that LFE+Main is a good feature if you are using vented speakers/subwoofers?

No, I wasn't implying this. I was merely recognizing that a slope-symmetric electro-acoustic crossover could in theory be achieved if the LPF4 was set to be coincident with the natural corner frequency of a vented speaker. It was more an observation than anything else.

With a tower speaker which has usable response to say 25-30 Hz, I can see some utility in setting the mains to full-range, the subwoofer mode to LFE+Main, the mains 'crossover' (i.e., actually a low pass filter) to 40 Hz, and the remaining speakers to Small with a conventional HPF2/LPF4 crossover. The subwoofer would still capture source material below the lower limits of the towers, and there wouldn't be too much overlap between the mains and the sub with a 40 Hz low pass.

It could be worth a try as an alternative to setting the towers to Small/40 Hz or setting the towers to full-range with subwoofer mode LFE, which would not capture anything below the lower limits of the towers.
post #100 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Measurements or by ear, to taste. You may actually like what you come up with by ear better than what measures best.
Amen! A very rare thought indeed. Right or wrong most people will say to set it up with a computer and just get used to it. If you dont like it that way there must be something wrong with you because the software says so. smile.gif
post #101 of 238
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen 
It could be worth a try as an alternative to setting the towers to Small/40 Hz or setting the towers to full-range with subwoofer mode LFE, which would not capture anything below the lower limits of the towers.

Correct if I'm wrong, but if I have a Denon receiver and I do not have LFE+Main engaged and I have all my speakers set to Large then I can't adjust the crossover frequency? Because I have a friend who told me he could, when all speakers are set to Large.

Like you said earlier, if speakers are set to Large then there is no crossover to adjust. Correct?
post #102 of 238
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john 
Honestly, I think "Double Bass" is a useless function with no redeeming social value. Just send the bass to the speakers best capable of reproducing it, (the subwoofer(s), and then optimize their transfer function. That will be a much better final result than trying to optimize multiple drivers, some poorly placed for bass response, and all of them having differing outputs and extensions

Need your advice. Are there any good reasons to use "Large" settings? I think I understand why Small is used for speakers that don't have deep bass, but let's say you have large main speakers that have 10 inch or 12 inch woofers. Would Large setting be beneficial over Small in that case? I was having a discussion with a buddy who tells me that ideally you want Large for all speakers but it's impractical given cost and size. But I don't know enough about this to comment. I don't know all the pron's or cons'.
post #103 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

Need your advice. Are there any good reasons to use "Large" settings? I think I understand why Small is used for speakers that don't have deep bass, but let's say you have large main speakers that have 10 inch or 12 inch woofers. Would Large setting be beneficial over Small in that case? I was having a discussion with a buddy who tells me that ideally you want Large for all speakers but it's impractical given cost and size. But I don't know enough about this to comment. I don't know all the pron's or cons'.
Read this entire thread if you havent already. That question has already been answered. What kind of receiver and speakers do you have?
post #104 of 238
Our main speakers have 10" woofers and Audyssey recommends "large" and LFE+Main, crossovers set to 40Hz.

There's nothing wrong with using this recommended setting.

OTOH, I ran multiple room analyzing measurement sessions and the conclusion was; the settings recommended by Audyssey, "Large" and "LFE+Main" crossed at "40Hz," gave the most stable room analyzer provided measurements.

The point, it's all about what measurements show to be true and accurate. It's a common recommendation to jack the speaker crossover up to 80Hz to relieve the AVR amplifier of it's designed amplification duties. Sometimes, measurements show, you just have to buy a separate amplifier to properly power the mains.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 4/6/13 at 12:58pm
post #105 of 238
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 
Read this entire thread if you havent already. That question has already been answered. What kind of receiver and speakers do you have?

The thread has been about "LFE+Main or Double Bass". I'm just talking about Large vs Small with full range speakers which I don't think we touched on in this thread yet. I have Polk RTI-A9s, which are quite large. Onkyo NR-818 receiver.

The other question, which has not been touched on, is the ideal "all speakers full range" which I was hoping someone could answer. Those questions certainly haven't been answered and I'm hoping for a technical answer. Trying to learn as much as I can.
post #106 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

Correct if I'm wrong, but if I have a Denon receiver and I do not have LFE+Main engaged and I have all my speakers set to Large then I can't adjust the crossover frequency? Because I have a friend who told me he could, when all speakers are set to Large.

Like you said earlier, if speakers are set to Large then there is no crossover to adjust. Correct?

Correct. If the subwoofer mode is LFE and the speakers are set to Large (full-range), there is no crossover adjustment, nor is there any low pass filter adjustment for the subwoofer (except for the LFE channel which is a separate setting and I recommend 120 Hz for that).

Your situation is a good candidate for trying the set-up I posted above since Polk rates your mains to 30 Hz (-3 dB). Set your mains to Large (full-range), the subwoofer mode to LFE+Main, set a 40 Hz 'crossover' (actually a subwoofer low pass) for the mains, and set the remainder of your speakers to Small with a conventional crossover.

As an alternative you could set all of your speakers to Small (use a 40 Hz crossover for the mains) and the subwoofer mode to LFE. This is how I would normally set-up a system like yours, but the above alternative is at least worth trying.

Pick the set-up which sounds/performs better to your ears.
post #107 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

Need your advice. Are there any good reasons to use "Large" settings? I think I understand why Small is used for speakers that don't have deep bass, but let's say you have large main speakers that have 10 inch or 12 inch woofers. Would Large setting be beneficial over Small in that case? I was having a discussion with a buddy who tells me that ideally you want Large for all speakers but it's impractical given cost and size. But I don't know enough about this to comment. I don't know all the pron's or cons'.

Hi OllieS,

First, let's start by re-setting the nomenclature. I try to avoid the use of "Large" vs. "Small" as they have connotations that go towards the male ego and pride. The whole concept of, "I've got BIG speakers. I'm settin' them to "Large", is thinking with the wrong head. biggrin.gif

I prefer to use the terms "Bass Management" and setting crossovers. I previously linked to Paul Scarpelli's posts. They go a long way towards explaining why using Bass Management is beneficial, even if you have physically "large" speakers:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/921427/triad-owners-thread/4950#post_23159343
http://www.avsforum.com/t/921427/triad-owners-thread/4950#post_23160950

My own speakers are physically large. They have dual 10" woofers. Looking at them, most would say they fit the definition of "Large" speakers:



Still, I cross them over to my subs at 100 Hz. Why? Because my subs, (dual opposed 15" drivers in sealed cabinets with 2,400 watts driving them), are much more capable at the lowest frequencies than my speakers. Not asking the speakers to reproduce the lowest bass, (which is also the most power hungry part of the spectrum and demands the most driver excursion), just opens them up and allows them to reproduce the part of the audio spectrum they are given with detail, articulation and finesse.

Amplifier power is also used most efficiently with this setup. The main amps have significantly more headroom available to drive the speakers when the deepest bass is removed from the signal. More headroom means they can play back louder and with less distortion than if they were required to driver the bass frequencies also. The whole system is much more efficient.

Finally, I can place my subs where they interact best with the room and provide the best transfer of energy from the subs to the listening position. Speakers need to be placed where they present the best soundstage and imaging. Those placements are virtually NEVER the optimal placements for bass response. For this reason alone, even if you had physically massive, full-range speakers in every position in your theater, you would still benefit from using subwoofers and Bass Management. You can optimize the bass response separately from the rest of the surround field.

Some will argue that you lose directionality in the bass when you use Bass Management and re-direct the bass to the subs. I would argue against that for a variety of reasons:
* there is VERY little content with directional bass in the recording
* directionality comes from frequencies above 80 Hz.
* if you're using "Double Bass" any directionality of the bass from the speakers will be overwhelmed by the subs anyway.
If you're really concerned about directional bass, use a lower crossover. Don't give up on Bass Management for the sole purpose of trying to restore bass directionality. That would be a poor trade-off, IMO.

Bottom line, I can think of no reason why the "Large" or "Full Range" setting should even exist in a Home Theater System. "Double Bass" makes even less sense to me.

Craig
post #108 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

The thread has been about "LFE+Main or Double Bass". I'm just talking about Large vs Small with full range speakers which I don't think we touched on in this thread yet. I have Polk RTI-A9s, which are quite large. Onkyo NR-818 receiver.

The other question, which has not been touched on, is the ideal "all speakers full range" which I was hoping someone could answer. Those questions certainly haven't been answered and I'm hoping for a technical answer. Trying to learn as much as I can.

Aside from your mains (which could arguably be set to Large/LFE+Main/40 Hz per the above), your other speakers are not true full-range speakers and should always be set to Small. Generally the best crossover is the next available menu selection above the rated bass extension of the speaker.
post #109 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

Generally the best crossover is the next available menu selection above the rated bass extension of the speaker.
That assumes the speaker manufacturer has "rated" the speaker at an SPL that is similar to the SPL you'll use with the speaker in question. Most speaker manufacturers measure and rate their speakers at 85 dB for the frequency response measurement. The -3 dB point will be different at 105 dB than it will at 85 dB. Therefore, if the user wishes to use their system at 105 dB, (full Reference Level), it is probably better to set the crossover a full octave above the manufacturer's specified -3 dB point. IMO.

Craig
post #110 of 238
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john 
Some will argue that you lose directionality in the bass when you use Bass Management and re-direct the bass to the subs. I would argue against that for a variety of reasons:
* there is VERY little content with directional bass in the recording
* directionality comes from frequencies above 80 Hz.
* if you're using "Double Bass" any directionality of the bass from the speakers will be overwhelmed by the subs anyway.
If you're really concerned about directional bass, use a lower crossover. Don't give up on Bass Management for the sole purpose of trying to restore bass directionality. That would be a poor trade-off, IMO.

Thank you for the reply! I've read somewhere where someone recommended more LF sources would result in a smoother response. That would include full range main speakers. I think Earl Geddes recommended large speakers as more LF sources in the room equals smoother in-room response. Do you agree/disagree with that?
post #111 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

Thank you for the reply! I've read somewhere where someone recommended more LF sources would result in a smoother response. That would include full range main speakers. I think Earl Geddes recommended large speakers as more LF sources in the room equals smoother in-room response. Do you agree/disagree with that?
In general, I completely agree that more sources of bass will result in smoother bass response throughout the room. However, I feel it is better to do that with multiple distributed, identical subwoofers, all receiving the same signal. Trying to do it with speakers and subwoofers, all of which have different output capabilities and LF roll-offs is far more difficult to optimize, and there are more compromises involved. If one is just setting up a system that is used for music reproduction, and deep LF/infrasonic response is not a goal of the system, Earl Geddes techniques are probably fine. However, if high output and deep extension are the goals, there is no replacement for multiple identical, distributed subs used with Bass Management.

Craig
post #112 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

That assumes the speaker manufacturer has "rated" the speaker at an SPL that is similar to the SPL you'll use with the speaker in question. Most speaker manufacturers measure and rate their speakers at 85 dB for the frequency response measurement. The -3 dB point will be different at 105 dB than it will at 85 dB. Therefore, if the user wishes to use their system at 105 dB, (full Reference Level), it is probably better to set the crossover a full octave above the manufacturer's specified -3 dB point. IMO.

Craig

Most brands do take liberties with the low extension rating of the speaker, which I why I recommend using the next available menu setting above the rated extension. It helps with dynamic range and also tends to offset exaggeration of the low-end rating - I think we're in agreement there.

But a full octave above is a bridge too far - a center channel rated to 60 Hz with dual 6.5" woofers and you recommend 120 Hz? A bookshelf with a 6.5" or 8" woofer and an 80 Hz rated extension and you would recommend 160 Hz? About 1/4-1/3 octave above is a safe cushion IMO. Upper bass and lower midrange is definitely directional. Set the speaker crossovers to 80 Hz (much less 120-160 Hz) and disconnect the speakers and leave the subwoofer playing - and I'll easily locate it every time with my eyes closed.

Not all speakers or systems are capable of cleanly playing at reference level (I would argue most are not), nor should that necessarily be the primary motivation behind setting the speaker crossover a full octave above its rated extension. With XOs set that high, male voices and other upper bass/lower midrange sounds start to bleed through to the subwoofer, which can sometimes make deep male voices sound somewhat disembodied, and also makes the subwoofer more localizable, particularly if it's not placed on the front stage (not everyone has that option).

This is why I don't like tiny satellite systems which require an XO in the 150-200 Hz range. They have no lower midrange and upper bass capability whatsoever, the subwoofer is forced to handle all of that - and the sound stage lacks solidity/realism and is not nearly as immersive compared to using larger more bass-capable speakers with a crossover in the 60 Hz range.
post #113 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

Most brands do take liberties with the low extension rating of the speaker, which I why I recommend using the next available menu setting above the rated extension. It helps with dynamic range and also tends to offset exaggeration of the low-end rating - I think we're in agreement there.

But a full octave above is a bridge too far - a center channel rated to 60 Hz with dual 6.5" woofers and you recommend 120 Hz? A bookshelf with a 6.5" or 8" woofer and an 80 Hz rated extension and you would recommend 160 Hz? About 1/4-1/3 octave above is a safe cushion IMO. Upper bass and lower midrange is definitely directional. Set the speaker crossovers to 80 Hz (much less 120-160 Hz) and disconnect the speakers and leave the subwoofer playing - and I'll easily locate it every time with my eyes closed.

Not all speakers or systems are capable of cleanly playing at reference level (I would argue most are not), nor should that necessarily be the primary motivation behind setting the speaker crossover a full octave above its rated extension. With XOs set that high, male voices and other upper bass/lower midrange sounds start to bleed through to the subwoofer, which can sometimes make deep male voices sound somewhat disembodied, and also makes the subwoofer more localizable, particularly if it's not placed on the front stage (not everyone has that option).

This is why I don't like tiny satellite systems which require an XO in the 150-200 Hz range. They have no lower midrange and upper bass capability whatsoever, the subwoofer is forced to handle all of that - and the sound stage lacks solidity/realism and is not nearly as immersive compared to using larger more bass-capable speakers with a crossover in the 60 Hz range.
We're in complete agreement that small satellites are sub-optimal. If one never uses small satellites, the the issue of >100 Hz crossovers is avoided. The mains should always be bass-capable to 40 - 50Hz. That way, they can be crossed to the subs at 80 - 100 Hz.

Craig
post #114 of 238
Thread Starter 
Guys, Ed and Craig, thank you so much for contributing. You have helped a great deal.

Just wanted to ask you. I have a friend who is running all speakers as large. He has a Jamo 12" sub that he reckons goes down to about 25 Hz. His main speakers go down to 40 Hz. In his processor he has it set at 40hz lowpass, its -24db/oct, subwoofer itself is dialed to its min which is 70hz. I heard from Scarpelli that if you don't use a crossover that the mains will superimpose it;s frequency response on to the sub. I'm not sure how much is superimposed on the setup I proposed above.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you want some of the bass to be superimposed for a smoother transition between speaker and sub? I thought that was the goal, for a seamless transition unless I completely missed the boat. I wish I could ask Paul directly, but I think you chaps are more than qualified to answer in his absence! smile.gif
Edited by OllieS - 4/6/13 at 11:21am
post #115 of 238
Thread Starter 
Thoughts?
post #116 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

Thoughts?

You got a lot of info from some of the best individuals that know how to properly set up for a HT. Now you start another thread http://www.avsforum.com/t/1467018/bm-all-speakers-set-to-large seeking the same answers? All of this is not going to change what you have already been told!
post #117 of 238
Thread Starter 
Sorry, I posted that other thread as I thought I might get more feedback, but the information presented thus far has been very enlightening. I'm just trying to understand what was said in the thread that Craig linked. There is no harm in asking questions, is there?

I'm just trying to learn. Hence why I asked those questions. I get that I'm wrong, but I just want to understand this better.
post #118 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

Sorry, I posted that other thread as I thought I might get more feedback, but the information presented thus far has been very enlightening. I'm just trying to understand what was said in the thread that Craig linked. There is no harm in asking questions, is there?

I'm just trying to learn. Hence why I asked those questions. I get that I'm wrong, but I just want to understand this better.
Again, you should probably reread this thread carefully. A lot of the stuff you are asking about has already been answered.
post #119 of 238
Thread Starter 
What I'm talking about is wave summation and cancellation, it's a different thing and I don't think it has been discussed. Hence why I asked the question. Asking me to reread the thread again is not going to help matters. smile.gif
post #120 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

What I'm talking about is wave summation and cancellation, it's a different thing and I don't think it has been discussed. Hence why I asked the question. Asking me to reread the thread again is not going to help matters. smile.gif

Keep on trolling!
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