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any point in upgrading subs? - Page 2

post #31 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe0Bloggs View Post

My point was that subs are a much harder target in terms of investment required to get them to sound decent compared to mains, never mind surrounds...

For Home Theater purposes, in my opinion, the thrill is in the rumble and mid-bass slam.

Everybody says how great the explosion was or how expressive the thunderous crash of the lighting was. Nobody I know or read, comments on Home Theater in the sense of how much they loved the shrill twill of a piccolo. But when the crash, boom, bang of multiple subs kicks in, I hear, "YEAH, NOW THAT"S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!"

In the end, my opinion regarding Home Theater audio, it's about the crash, boom, bang.
post #32 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

So the question for me might be different with respect to what to do first. I'm tempted just to stick with PSB for everything for what it's worth, as I live in an apartment anyways and needing it to shake the walls is definitely not one of my requirements.

Move to a place where you can play it loud?

Or you can settle for lukewarm. tongue.gif

(it's humor as yes, I know, you can't just pickup and leave)
post #33 of 122
LOL. I set a variable highpass filter on my system and move it up in frequency (filtering out more of the low bass) at night to prevent disturbing the neighbors to my flat. It is bypassed during the day. So far no complaints. If someone knocks on my door during the day I'd say I'm allowed to do renovation work in the day hours tongue.gif
post #34 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe0Bloggs View Post

LOL. I set a variable highpass filter on my system and move it up in frequency (filtering out more of the low bass) at night to prevent disturbing the neighbors to my flat. It is bypassed during the day. So far no complaints. If someone knocks on my door during the day I'd say I'm allowed to do renovation work in the day hours tongue.gif

When we lived in a communal situation, I did two things, knocked on local doors and notified them it was a movie night and asked if it would be a problem and two, I offered to share the CD with them when we were done viewing the CD.

With today's cable and online downloads, the second suggestion may not be possible.

As to neighbor's knocking on the door during the day, a quick and thoughtful "Get a day job!" should cook that goose.

... wink.gif...tongue.gif

-
post #35 of 122
I know nothing about your mains, but the budget for your sub seems out of alignment with most folks who have $1800 worth of mains and surrounds.

I agree with Bee, that the sub has the most impact on a home theater system. Many with dedicated rooms set their subwoofer budget fairly close to the budget on all other speakers. You're not in a dedicated room, but a more capable sub does more for your system than shake the walls.

Another reason to consider a higher budget on the sub is the lifespan of subs. My last one served me well for 15 years. What's a few hundred dollars over that much time? Are you going to live in the apartment that long? Maybe you'll be in a place that allows you to use more of the sub and you'll find yourself buying AGAIN.

I vote for buy right and buy once.
post #36 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

I know nothing about your mains, but the budget for your sub seems out of alignment with most folks who have $1800 worth of mains and surrounds.

Many with dedicated rooms set their subwoofer budget fairly close to the budget on all other speakers.



I vote for buy right and buy once.

Very interesting, I had not heard that ratio before. I read somewhere else on this site that the rule of thumb was to put about a third of the budget into the AVR, and 2/3's into the speakers.

By by combining my formula and yours, that would mean for a $1500 5.1 setup you would have a $500 AVR, $500 in fronts, center and surrounds, and $500 in a sub. Does that sound about right to you in terms of numbers?

Maybe that formula changes for higher budget setups, I'm not sure.
post #37 of 122
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

I know nothing about your mains, but the budget for your sub seems out of alignment with most folks who have $1800 worth of mains and surrounds.

I agree with Bee, that the sub has the most impact on a home theater system. Many with dedicated rooms set their subwoofer budget fairly close to the budget on all other speakers. You're not in a dedicated room, but a more capable sub does more for your system than shake the walls.

Another reason to consider a higher budget on the sub is the lifespan of subs. My last one served me well for 15 years. What's a few hundred dollars over that much time? Are you going to live in the apartment that long? Maybe you'll be in a place that allows you to use more of the sub and you'll find yourself buying AGAIN.

I vote for buy right and buy once.

Well one reason I can't buy a more expensive sub is because I've just dropped that much money on the other speakers ( replacing my last set ). I could wait of course, as I've got a crappy sub right now, but if a bargain can be had - and anything is better then my current sub - it might be worth pulling the trigger. The PSB was 450 when it came out 6 months ago. Now, whether this price drop to 300 + tax is representative of it's performance or sales numbers I don't know. It's true I might not be here in 15 years, but I think I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. If I ever had enough for a house, replacing my subwoofer probably wouldn't be a problem.
I hear you though, and option number 3 is spend that 350 on a used sub that would be of much higher quality at that price. It's just a matter of keeping an eye on the adds every day in the mean time smile.gif
post #38 of 122
Can you drive to a cross border pickup location?

They are making it hard on you.
post #39 of 122
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Can you drive to a cross border pickup location?

They are making it hard on you.

Unfortunately not. I don't have a car, and don't have any friends I can think of willing to drive to buffalo to pick up a subwoofer with me frown.gif although that would obviously be the best option!
post #40 of 122
You seem to have already made up your mind but I will help concrete it for you, I ended up with a full matching 7 speaker set through paradigm, I have many times since said if i had to do it over i would go smaller/cheaper on the surrounds and use that money for a second sub instead. That's how important the sub is in comparison.

I just demo'd part of the avengers movie for some family and not once did they mention anything about the width of the side and rear sound stage or the clarity, or even how they blended, but the entire day i did hear about how that sub was amazing and they had never heard a surround system that blew them away with that thump in the chest.
post #41 of 122
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by getsideways87 View Post

You seem to have already made up your mind but I will help concrete it for you, I ended up with a full matching 7 speaker set through paradigm, I have many times since said if i had to do it over i would go smaller/cheaper on the surrounds and use that money for a second sub instead. That's how important the sub is in comparison.

I just demo'd part of the avengers movie for some family and not once did they mention anything about the width of the side and rear sound stage or the clarity, or even how they blended, but the entire day i did hear about how that sub was amazing and they had never heard a surround system that blew them away with that thump in the chest.

I hear you man. My challenge though, is that I live in an apartment, albeit with pretty thick walls. If I lived in a house, I'd save up for a 1000 dollar sub and have it kick my arse, but there's zero point in me doing so here. I just want something to compliment the other speakers, I can't have bass that kicks me in the nads, although that would be great smile.gif - The challenge is to get clear unmuddled base, that can play fairly low. Obviously a bigger budget would help in that respect, but in terms of overall power / noise, I don't need a big one.
Edited by Sean Spamilton - 4/7/13 at 11:15am
post #42 of 122
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Can you drive to a cross border pickup location?

They are making it hard on you.

Ok!, I think I found my sub, taking into account my budget, your suggestions, and reviews online. I managed to get a kipsch:

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-ViewAd?AdId=472214536&MessageId=MSG.VIEW_AD.REPLY_TO_AD_SENT&backToSearchUrl=http%3A%2F%2Ftoronto.kijiji.ca%2Ff-klipsch-buy-and-sell-electronics-W0QQCatIdZ15QQKeywordZklipschQQisSearchFormZtrue&ilIds=472316493%2C472293991%2C472258914%2C472215745%2C472214536%2C472212742%2C472211240%2C472205062%2C472195948%2C472192865%2C472192094%2C472185966%2C472185289%2C472183072%2C472181665%2C472180406%2C472147811%2C472132272%2C472124886%2C472111928&ilNext=2&ilPrev=-1&ilProvider=SearchIdListProvider&ilqcCatId=15&ilqcKeyword=klipsch&mpname=R2S&mpname=Activity-R2S&mpuid=1700277%3B15%3B472214536%3B71185820%3B%3B&secev=AQAAAT3kXgYAAM0AAAACACIxM2RlNjE0NzQ1MS5hMjBiMjY4LjJhYmFhLmZmZmFjNDZjAAAAABwlbAgBAAAAAgAAAAAO13BAZoxzaYsEibue4KDfqNhuJibRt%2B8*

Open box deal. The dealer is also going to drive it down to my house later in the week, and said he's been an audio engineer since the '60's and would be willing free of charge to come up to demo my setup and give me suggestions on the best possible location for the sub, and also whether it would be worth using a splitter and incorporating both subs at once into my apt. For that price, plus the one on one expertise, I think I made out like a bandit smile.gif
post #43 of 122
Congrats on your good fortune. I'll look forward to your review regarding the overall buying/setup experience.
post #44 of 122
Thread Starter 
Oh well **** it. I'm sick of looking.

It looks like a fair deal on here, and these are American prices, which I've come to discover are MUCH cheaper then our Canadian prices for subs:

http://shop.retrevo.com/m/search/productpage?c=1082&og=926482&m=23863093

I'm taking it ... and an in home audio setup with a audio installer / engineer is worth an extra 50 bucks I'm sure anyways. So I'm doin' it.
post #45 of 122
I sincerely hope you enjoy it, and that you find it to be an improvement over your current sub. smile.gif
post #46 of 122
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

I sincerely hope you enjoy it, and that you find it to be an improvement over your current sub. smile.gif

Thanks, according to the guy at the PSB shop, a bucket and a spoon would be better then my current sub, so at least I'll have that going for me. I'll report back one way or the other, even if it sucks.
post #47 of 122
Thread Starter 
Ok, Well the audio guy couldn't come down with the sub yesterday as we had an ice storm, and roads were terrible, but is coming by on Sunday with my new sub. He's also bringing a long second sub cable and splitter, to hook up my old sub for a second sub setup. He mentioned in brief the most important / beneficial aspect of this would be to eliminate standing waves, however many articles I've been reading say NOT to set up two subs unless they are matching specs, or better, the same sub. Seeing how my last sub is apparently crap, wouldn't this just make the new one sound crappy too?.. In addition, as there's no settings for phase or crossover on my old one, I don't see how I could really tune it to match the new Klipsch, other then letting Auddessy figure it out. Do you guys think I should bother at all with this? or just call off the extra speaker cable and splitter ( I'm sure he'll charge me another 50 for that anyways ).. Option 3 is to let him bring it over, figure out the best position for the second sub, then tell him I don't want the extra cable, knowing the ideal placement for a second sub if I decide to purchase a second of the same brand.
post #48 of 122
I've heard dozens of rooms that use different subs in a multi sub system. In every case it was beneficial. I think it would be for you too. smile.gif
post #49 of 122
...+1

Well, all except for the part about having experience in dozens of rooms and multiple subwoofer systems but personal experience has shown me that agreed, yes, it's definitely beneficial.

One way it's beneficial, around which I don't see much if any conversation regarding this point, adding a second or third sub to a "weak" subwoofer system will raise the left-hand side a graph by (the assumption being, all subs are in phase), adding more energy to that end of the sonic spectrum. Doing this has the affect of lifting the graph, further extending the useful depth of a subwoofer system's room extension.

Now, in reverse of the above, if one starts with a strong subwoofer system and adds a weaker sub to a system, then all bets are off as every time the sound track extends beyond the capability of the weaker sub, the weaker sub will drag the graph down at what ever sonic location on the graph, the weaker sub fails to keep up. A sort of energy null if you will as opposed to a null created by intersecting sound waves.

(watched U-571 last night.........again. biggrin.gif)
post #50 of 122
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

I've heard dozens of rooms that use different subs in a multi sub system. In every case it was beneficial. I think it would be for you too. smile.gif

Hmm... ok, well maybe it won't be so bad then...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

...+1




Now, in reverse of the above, if one starts with a strong subwoofer system and adds a weaker sub to a system, then all bets are off as every time the sound track extends beyond the capability of the weaker sub, the weaker sub will drag the graph down at what ever sonic location on the graph, the weaker sub fails to keep up. A sort of energy null if you will as opposed to a null created by intersecting sound waves.

(watched U-571 last night.........again. biggrin.gif)

I don't quite understand, isn't adding a stronger sub to a weaker sub the same as adding a weaker sub to a stronger sub? seems to me to be two and one half dozen of the other no? won't the end result be the same?
post #51 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

...+1

Well, all except for the part about having experience in dozens of rooms and multiple subwoofer systems but personal experience has shown me that agreed, yes, it's definitely beneficial.

One way it's beneficial, around which I don't see much if any conversation regarding this point, adding a second or third sub to a "weak" subwoofer system will raise the left-hand side a graph by (the assumption being, all subs are in phase), adding more energy to that end of the sonic spectrum. Doing this has the affect of lifting the graph, further extending the useful depth of a subwoofer system's room extension.

Now, in reverse of the above, if one starts with a strong subwoofer system and adds a weaker sub to a system, then all bets are off as every time the sound track extends beyond the capability of the weaker sub, the weaker sub will drag the graph down at what ever sonic location on the graph, the weaker sub fails to keep up. A sort of energy null if you will as opposed to a null created by intersecting sound waves.

(watched U-571 last night.........again. biggrin.gif)

You're contradicting yourself again Beeman. rolleyes.gif

Adding a weaker sub to a stronger sub is exactly the same as the inverse. However, your quote here is the correct advice:
Quote:
every time the sound track extends beyond the capability of the weaker sub, the weaker sub will drag the graph down at what ever sonic location on the graph, the weaker sub fails to keep up.
post #52 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

I don't quite understand, isn't adding a stronger sub to a weaker sub the same as adding a weaker sub to a stronger sub? seems to me to be two and one half dozen of the other no? won't the end result be the same?

Correct. However, your two subs should be similar enough in performance that you could probably get them to play together just fine.

That being said, the only way to properly integrate multiple subwoofers is with measuring equipment (i.e. REW, Omnimic, etc.). If you don't measure the response in your room, you'll never really know just how the two are interacting.
post #53 of 122
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Correct. However, your two subs should be similar enough in performance that you could probably get them to play together just fine.

That being said, the only way to properly integrate multiple subwoofers is with measuring equipment (i.e. REW, Omnimic, etc.). If you don't measure the response in your room, you'll never really know just how the two are interacting.

Well, these are the two subs:
My old one: http://www.amazon.ca/Denon-DSW-391-Powered-Subwoofer-Speaker/dp/B00634VKPG

Funny, I just noticed now that this sub is " By Klipsch ".. the maker of my new sub, that's a bonus!

and my new one:
http://www.klipsch.com/kw-100-subwoofer


That REW tool looks mighty complicated, though I might be able to figure it out. It's a PC app? I wonder if I could use the audessey mic through the PC mic input to use this?
post #54 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

I don't quite understand, isn't adding a stronger sub to a weaker sub the same as adding a weaker sub to a stronger sub? seems to me to be two and one half dozen of the other no? won't the end result be the same?

Yes, it does make a difference. Are you adding a weaker sub or a stronger sub to the sonic chain. Is it an improvement or a degradation of the sonic chain.

I see it in the simple of how the progression takes place as an added link will either weaken, keep a chain the same or strengthen the chain, depending on the order the link is added.

In the case of subwoofers, the ideal is to improve one's sonic chain, not weaken the sonic chain.
post #55 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

You're contradicting yourself again Beeman. :rolleyes

No contradiction at all. Reread what I wrote, and take time to maintain the context of what I posted. It'll make sense.

Are you adding to or taking away? No contradiction. Yes, the progression of "ANY" event, does make a difference as to the validity of the final outcome.

If and the outcome is not the same. In one scenario the chain is being weakened and in the other, the chain is being strengthened. No, the outcome is not the same as the capability of the chain has been changed from it's original capability to the good or the bad but the same it's not.

One day, you guys will loosen your thinking up, just enough, so as to keep up. biggrin.gif

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 4/12/13 at 9:22am
post #56 of 122
Sub A: -3db @ 35Hz
Sub B: -3db @ 20Hz

Whether you start off with Sub A or Sub B is pretty irrelevant in terms of actual sound quality and improvement. Once you have both subs playing together you should have improved response from 35Hz on up, whereas you'll be limited to Sub B for 20 to 35Hz content.

Adding Sub A to Sub B will not suddenly make Sub B's quality degrade. It won't make the overall room response degrade either. It will simply improve the response from the weaker sub's -3db point on up. Any nulls below the weaker sub's -3db were already present when this weaker sub wasn't being used.
post #57 of 122
OP, I wouldn't be too concerned with using a sub(of any size) in an apartment. I have what most would consider overkill for an apartment, but I've yet to receive complaints. The idea is that the bass is so loud and enveloping to your neighbors, that they honestly don't know where it's coming from. lol. At least that's my theory as to why no one has complained yet. That and the fact that I only listen to it loud(er) during daytime hours and on weekends.

I have a friend with a 10" Klipsch sub, thinking it may be the same one you're getting, and it sounds pretty good. Much better than my Bic F12 did. It hit deeper and with more punch than my F12. I'm certain you'll be happy with it, and will see that your old sub was nowhere near being a true subwoofer.
post #58 of 122
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

Sub A: -3db @ 35Hz
Sub B: -3db @ 20Hz

Whether you start off with Sub A or Sub B is pretty irrelevant in terms of actual sound quality and improvement. Once you have both subs playing together you should have improved response from 35Hz on up, whereas you'll be limited to Sub B for 20 to 35Hz content.

Adding Sub A to Sub B will not suddenly make Sub B's quality degrade. It won't make the overall room response degrade either. It will simply improve the response from the weaker sub's -3db point on up. Any nulls below the weaker sub's -3db were already present when this weaker sub wasn't being used.

Ok this makes sense. Well I guess I'll let my ears do the talking on Sunday, but it sounds like it might be o.k... Bonus that the old sub ( crappy apparently ) is made by klipsch too, maybe they'll " phase " better, though there's no adjustment on the old one for phase or crossover, or anything other then on and off. In any case if it's an improvement I can always wait 'till I'm a little more flush and pick one up that matches the new one I suppose!
post #59 of 122
If the new one has a phase control, and you plan on putting one in the front of the room and one in back, put the one with the phase control in the back just in case it needs tweaking.
post #60 of 122
Just adjust levels on the two subs so that the weaker one doesn't bottom out before the stronger one.
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