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Is the End of Physical Media Inevitable? - Page 27

Poll Results: Is the End of Physical Media Inevitable?

 
  • 2% (23)
    Yes, physical media will quickly disappear altogether
  • 18% (198)
    Yes, physical media will slowly disappear altogether
  • 34% (369)
    No, new physical formats will continue to be developed
  • 44% (470)
    No, but physical media will become a niche market for enthusiasts
1060 Total Votes  
post #781 of 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

At issue was your claim that people will have their purchase licenses around "forever" being directly refuted by someone who bought into a streaming service and lost his purchases

I never referred to streaming, so somebody's bad experience with some streaming service is irrelevant. I'm talking about a data archive service, such as Amazon offers with e-books.

I trust that Amazon, or at least some descendant, will always maintain my license to e-books; Apple will always honor my license to access purchases I've made on iTunes. I know NOTHING in this world is 100% guaranteed, but I will easily accept the level of risk in trusting these corporations.

If others want to maintain shelves of optical disks of their digital property in their basement safe room, along with fresh water, canned goods, gold and a ham radio, fine, whatever makes you feel secure.
post #782 of 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

I know CD rot is rare, but I'd imagine that there is a higher probability that the average person will have a disk damaged than the average title purchased online disappearing forever.

Of course, if you scratch your disc you can usually buy another copy, even if it's secondhand. That may not be possible if it is a rare one, where not many copies were put out in the first place ir it went out of print a long time ago. That raises the question of why you didn;t look after it more carefuly.

If a streamed title is pulled, it's gone, everywhere, just like that.

WHich is the whole point we've been stressing: if you want ensured permanence, you need a physical copy. Doesn't really matter what that is - if it;s a downloaded copy on a hard drive (which allows you to back up) that's pretyt much as good as an optical disc.

Streaming is just rental. and any "ownership" is ephemeral. Well, no, it's non-existant!
post #783 of 920
I've been buying CD's since the late 80's and DVD's since the late 90's. My discs are near mint and I never even heard of CD rot until recently. When your music/movies are "in the cloud" that long let me know biggrin.gif
post #784 of 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

CD rot is rare, and other than a few manufacturing problems does not exist for DVDs or Blu-rays. I don't know about you, but I take good care of my stuff, and don't scratch them up. Plenty of people out there with 40+ year old record collections that are also in pristine condition. I know that doesn't jibe with the fast food, get it now mentality, but amazingly there are people who take good care of their possessions.

I've already acknowledged that the writing is on the wall for physical media, but what streaming media fans should be doing (instead of lambasting those who like collecting physical media) is pushing for the same capabilities with streaming media that is available with traditional media.... ALL services offering downloadable backups, and a push for them to remove or relax some of the DRM, so that I don't have to worry about being able to play back an iTunes video file 10 years from now, if there is no longer current hardware available that can play the files.

I have several blurays that are unplayable. If you look at the disc there are zero visible defects, yet none of the bluray players, the PS3, nor any of our PC"s with bluray drives can read them.
post #785 of 920
CD rot was a manufacturing issue early on. Layers inadequately bonded, and degradation of the dye.

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/347279-digital-rot?p=2171371&viewfull=1#post2171371

Now, as to unplayable Blu-Rays: Yeah, I've had a couple like that, plus a fair few BB rentals. Funny, one of the selling points for Blu-Ray was "armor coat", if memory serves. Supposedly *very* scratch resistant. (Not very, actually). Anyway, those brand-new ones that wouldn't play, I chalked up to a manufacturing defect and exchanged them. It happens.
post #786 of 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzi93 View Post

CD rot was a manufacturing issue early on. Layers inadequately bonded, and degradation of the dye.

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/347279-digital-rot?p=2171371&viewfull=1#post2171371

Now, as to unplayable Blu-Rays: Yeah, I've had a couple like that, plus a fair few BB rentals. Funny, one of the selling points for Blu-Ray was "armor coat", if memory serves. Supposedly *very* scratch resistant. (Not very, actually). Anyway, those brand-new ones that wouldn't play, I chalked up to a manufacturing defect and exchanged them. It happens.



I've never has any disc that would not play but I know others have. I buy half of my new BD on amazon and I know they will replace anything they sell or give you a refund. But yeah it happens smile.gif
post #787 of 920
Studios have always been more than willing to replace discs with playback problems, as long as the disc was not scratched, etc. They are actually interested to look at disc failures since it usually points to packaging or manufacturing issues that they need to verify have been corrected.
post #788 of 920
...
Edited by PobjoySpecial - 5/16/13 at 2:36pm
post #789 of 920
Lower storage space immensely?

Smaller than my reel to reel, smaller than 8 tracks (Nope, thankfully never had 'em!), thinner than my cassette tapes, not as bulky as my albums.
Tiny compared to canisters of 35mm film, my Beta collection, my VHS tapes....

Yes I store my disks in the container they come in... I would not dream of abusing something I purchased to enjoy whenever I wanted to, otherwise what was the point of the purchase anyway? Talk about loosing value!

Kind a "nit-picky" to complain about storage space with one's physical media.

How many pants and shirts do you wear at a time? Your closet and dresser is an immense waste of space by your reasoning.

Let,s keep this real people!
post #790 of 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVTrauma View Post

Yes I store my disks in the container they come in... I would not dream of abusing something I purchased to enjoy whenever I wanted to, otherwise what was the point of the purchase anyway? Talk about loosing value!
Your points are valid. But as a reformed music collector, I could never store all my accumulated CDs in their cases. I made the decision years ago to throw away all the booklets and all those odious jewel boxes. Still I am overwhelmed. (BTW, CD wallets of various sizes do a fine job protecting the discs, in my experience.) My office is laughable, I have a hard time making shelf space for the CD wallets, each lovingly categorized and jam-packed with CDs. What a nutter I am.

I will not go down the same kooky path collecting movie discs.

BTW, I agree that there really is no good substitute for physical media today when it comes to movies. Streaming sucks. I'm looking into my crystal ball and seeing digital archive services someday being very reliable and convenient.
post #791 of 920
...
Edited by PobjoySpecial - 5/16/13 at 2:36pm
post #792 of 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by PobjoySpecial View Post

For those of you that buy physical disks, do you keep the cases? Keeping disks in slip covers would obviously lower the storage space immensely, but your collection loses a lot of its value. Alternatively, have any of you tried to sell bare disks on Amazon/eBay? How much did you lose?

We watch them on the bluray player once. Call us crazy, but we actually enjoy sitting through the trailers, we've stumbled across quite a few gems by doing so. After that they get ripped to our file server in mkv format for playback over our network. The disc and box get stored with all the others in the closet under the stairs in moving boxes.
post #793 of 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Burger View Post


BTW, I agree that there really is no good substitute for physical media today when it comes to movies. Streaming sucks. I'm looking into my crystal ball and seeing digital archive services someday being very reliable and convenient.

Your crystal ball is cloudy then. Because streaming, the rental model, is where it's all going. The pay-per-view/subscription model is going to dominate. You concepot, where the end user actually owns the content as a personal belonging is the last thing the content providers want us to have.

You idea of a personal library, where you actually own the content, even if it is stored for your by a service, is not going to happen. Entertainment is a totally different world to personal data, such as your own photos, documents and so on.

There probably won;t even be much demand for it. Too many people are shifting towards the consumer model the corporations love so much: use it once, throw it away, then buy the next bit of disposable shiny-ness.
post #794 of 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebiroth View Post

Your crystal ball is cloudy then. Because streaming, the rental model, is where it's all going. The pay-per-view/subscription model is going to dominate. You concepot, where the end user actually owns the content as a personal belonging is the last thing the content providers want us to have.

You idea of a personal library, where you actually own the content, even if it is stored for your by a service, is not going to happen. Entertainment is a totally different world to personal data, such as your own photos, documents and so on.

There probably won;t even be much demand for it. Too many people are shifting towards the consumer model the corporations love so much: use it once, throw it away, then buy the next bit of disposable shiny-ness.



This is exactly why at least half of us on this thread and probably more want to keep physical media around awhile longer. Quality is another reason, I do own some movies in the cloud but even though the video portion is getting close the audio fails in comparison to DTS master audio. Right now I own my media because its in my possession if your happy with a streaming service owning your media and inferior quality that's your choice.
post #795 of 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post


This is exactly why at least half of us on this thread and probably more want to keep physical media around awhile longer. Quality is another reason, I do own some movies in the cloud but even though the video portion is getting close the audio fails in comparison to DTS master audio. Right now I own my media because its in my possession if your happy with a streaming service owning your media and inferior quality that's your choice.

 

Yesterday at the Value Electronics shootout they compared a frame from a studio master to a frame from a Blu-ray, including a segment magnified to 400%. The differences are incredibly slight, even the best streaming files are significantly more degraded compared to Blu-ray versus what Blu-ray is to what is shown the theater.
 
So, I acknowledge that Blu-ray is essentially a reference. It's actually quite amazing what has been achieved with streaming files, the quality really is great on some recent titles. In fact, the example they showed for what compression does to the same frame seemed to bit dated, versus what I've seen from iTunes and Vudu lately. But there is a loss, that cannot be denied. So, at this point I'm convinced with Blu-ray approaches a reference ideal for 1080p media. 
post #796 of 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Yesterday at the Value Electronics shootout they compared a frame from a studio master to a frame from a Blu-ray, including a segment magnified to 400%. The differences are incredibly slight, even the best streaming files are significantly more degraded compared to Blu-ray versus what Blu-ray is to what is shown the theater.
 
So, I acknowledge that Blu-ray is essentially a reference. It's actually quite amazing what has been achieved with streaming files, the quality really is great on some recent titles. In fact, the example they showed for what compression does to the same frame seemed to bit dated, versus what I've seen from iTunes and Vudu lately. But there is a loss, that cannot be denied. So, at this point I'm convinced with Blu-ray approaches a reference ideal for 1080p media. 



Your comparisons on other threads has also shown me how close some of the streaming services are getting to blu ray in the video department. Vudu is very enjoyable to watch and the convienance factor is undeniable. I just really like my discs I guess, when you've spent years collecting old habits die hard smile.gif
post #797 of 920
With regards to the concept of keeping access to non-disc media, that seems like a natural progression towards iTunes as your source. It's the only place from which you can easily and openly download and keep everything you buy in m4v file format. Of course it's still drm so there's risk there, but that's pretty full protection against access to the title going away if you've held your local copy. If you're all apple in your devices as well, the drm really isn't a big deal as the file will play everywhere.

That being said I'm looking to amazon as my storehouse for tv and vudu/uv for movies for the long haul. Short term ill still to bluray, but trying to position to the future. I've had a few purchases from iTunes so far go off the store, but my purchased version stayed cloud acceasible just fine.
post #798 of 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by PobjoySpecial View Post

Having a wall of DVDs on display would probably embarass me more than anything. "Hi, my name's Joe Schmoe, and I have a problem..." smile.gif

ya, I think a large DVD shelf is about as alluring as a stamp collection. My problem is not with the babes - that ship as pretty much sailed - but rather with myself. I have collected 100 or so movies that remain in their nice plastic cases in a living room case. When I look at them, I ask myself "Why did you do htat?" There are some box sets that I am really glad to have, but my tastes have changed, and a lot of those formally essential DVDs gather dust. Perhaps I will try and sell on Amazon someday.
post #799 of 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebiroth View Post

Your crystal ball is cloudy then. Because streaming, the rental model, is where it's all going. The pay-per-view/subscription model is going to dominate. You concept, where the end user actually owns the content as a personal belonging is the last thing the content providers want us to have.

Remember, the TV and computer have not yet been combined for 98% of consumers. The overarching trend is that people are demanding more control over their entertainment. A crystal ball looks 5, 10 years in the future, not into 2014.

Sure, streaming is coming-on in the near term, but that's because it's a fit with where technology and expectations stand today.

Streaming is a doomed, incredibly stupid model - the idea of everybody jamming the internet at peak hours to do real-time data transfers is ridiculous. It guarantees poor quality. Storage space (both local and remote) and high quality TVs are expanding a lot faster than internet bandwidth.
post #800 of 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Burger View Post

Remember, the TV and computer have not yet been combined for 98% of consumers. The overarching trend is that people are demanding more control over their entertainment. A crystal ball looks 5, 10 years in the future, not into 2014.

Sure, streaming is coming-on in the near term, but that's because it's a fit with where technology and expectations stand today.

Streaming is a doomed, incredibly stupid model - the idea of everybody jamming the internet at peak hours to do real-time data transfers is ridiculous. It guarantees poor quality. Storage space (both local and remote) and high quality TVs are expanding a lot faster than internet bandwidth.



Your last statement is why I believe there will be a new 4K media player out in the near future. How many people are going to spend hours and hours downloading the new format or cripple everyone else's devices in the household streaming it?
post #801 of 920
H265 will be able to deliver similar quality to H264 using 1/2 the bandwidth. That, combined with continued improvements in internet speed delivery means that while there will probably be some buffering and down-grading of the quality of your stream, it is unlikely to be enough of a detriment to derail streaming from being a primary means of TV delivery in just a few years to a majority of households.
post #802 of 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Yesterday at the Value Electronics shootout they compared a frame from a studio master to a frame from a Blu-ray, including a segment magnified to 400%. The differences are incredibly slight, even the best streaming files are significantly more degraded compared to Blu-ray versus what Blu-ray is to what is shown the theater.
 
So, I acknowledge that Blu-ray is essentially a reference. It's actually quite amazing what has been achieved with streaming files, the quality really is great on some recent titles. In fact, the example they showed for what compression does to the same frame seemed to bit dated, versus what I've seen from iTunes and Vudu lately. But there is a loss, that cannot be denied. So, at this point I'm convinced with Blu-ray approaches a reference ideal for 1080p media. 

How were you comparing the two? With a 4K TV? If so, what up-converted the BD signal? If compared on a 1080P TV it does not seem valid since obviously you aren't viewing the 4K frame with 1:1 pixel mapping.
post #803 of 920
I may only be 31, but I must be old fashioned. I won't pay more than 2 bucks to rent any kind of movie (I love Red Box), and I'm certainly not going to pay that kind of money to stream a movie that may or may not stream well in HD, nor will I own.

Recently I've seen where a good portion of movies I would buy are available earlier to purchase on things like Vudu, Xbox Live, etc...but I don't have the desire to own something only in a cloud/hard drive realm, and not have a physical copy of it. Just about every Blu Ray I buy now has that digital copy, and you know how often I've used that? Maybe 5% of the purchases I've made, and only when I've had to get on a plane and go somewhere. I find things like ultraviolet horribly annoying, and something I will only adapt to if I have too.

As far as watching things goes in my theater room, nothing compares to the hard copy. I'm not saying I don't use and abuse the likes of my Netflix or Amazon Prime, but I won't pay to own a movie like that.
post #804 of 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post


How were you comparing the two? With a 4K TV? If so, what up-converted the BD signal? If compared on a 1080P TV it does not seem valid since obviously you aren't viewing the 4K frame with 1:1 pixel mapping.

What are you talking about? I'm talking about Blu-ray and 1080p material. Most movies are mastered in 2K. Not talking about 4K or 2160p at all.

post #805 of 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebiroth View Post

Your concept, where the end user actually owns the content as a personal belonging is the last thing the content providers want us to have.
Has the publishing business lost money on e-books, where the owner has a license? I suspect publishers' profit margins are higher on e-books than physical books.

OF course the movie producers will allow you to own content, just like you own a disc today. Once it becomes conveniently available, people will flock towards a service that allows them to keep all their content archived for them. You won't have to worry about damaging, losing or organizing boxes of unnecessary stuff. You'll be able to keep a local copy of your movies on a home media server. The digital information will be identical to that saved on a disc.

Do you think Kindle users care that they don't have each of their books on an individual optical disc, saved in plastic cases on some dusty shelf at home?
post #806 of 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Burger View Post

...
Do you think Kindle users care that they don't have each of their books on an individual optical disc, saved in plastic cases on some dusty shelf at home?

I was just thinking: I was somewhat of a "collector" once. I still have a few hundred CDs, sitting in boxes in the back of a closet. I have probably about 300 DVDs, BRs (and even a bunch of HDDVDs). I have a few thousand books, still lining up the walls on bookcases in two rooms -- many are first editions.

But digital has changed my mindset: first I ripped all my music and vide to a NAS.

Nowadays I almost never listen to music even from the NAS (lossless), but simply stream it from MOG -- so much easier, infinitely bigger and the quality is indistinguishable (even on reasonably good equipment).

I also find myself streaming most of the time, rarely using BR anymore, except for the latest blockbuster titles (many of which are a total waste of two or three hours). I find that I am discovering tons of stuff I never heard of before on Netflix and much of it is so much more satisfying. Again, the quality is absolutely adequate, streaming on ATV 3s. I rarely purchase digital titles, however and refuse to do PPV.

The books are interesting, because I was kind of obsessed with books. Almost everything I had was bought in hard-cover and as I said earlier, I have first editions of much of the titles I really love.

But then about 5 years ago I tried e-Ink readers. Today, I much prefer to read on e-Ink (I find the iPad and all other LCDs tire my eyes after reading for longer than 30 minutes or so). I don't like the cheap 6" e-readers and have been sticking with Kindle DXs, but just got a 6.8" Kobo Aura HD and I am reasonably happy with it. I did miss the nicer looking type design of hard-covers, but ebooks are getting better and publishers are starting to pay a little more attention to how they set up their titles.

Bottom line is, digital formats and easy availability have "cured" me from being a collector. I am not missing it much. (I do strip the DRM of pretty much everything I purchase, including the hundreds of ebooks I have purchased from Amazon -- this is actually a necessity if you want to use the files on a different ereader).
post #807 of 920
What I fear, no dread, is that the clueless masses are going for this streaming media because it's easy, but right now the quality is not up to physical media. My wife pestered me for months to upgrade our Netflix from disk to streaming saying, "All our friends are doing it." Well from my research our basic UVERSE internet connection might get me 720p. Netflix streaming may be same price as physical disk, but I'm not going to pay more than I'm already paying to get a good enough internet connection to get 1080p. Unfortunately we here on the AVS forums are a small minority. The lowest common denominator will win by their sheer numbers.
post #808 of 920
Y
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

What are you talking about? I'm talking about Blu-ray and 1080p material. Most movies are mastered in 2K. Not talking about 4K or 2160p at all.
you had said you compared the BD to a reference frame. I thought most movies now where mastered in 4K.
post #809 of 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by repair4man View Post

Unfortunately we here on the AVS forums are a small minority. The lowest common denominator will win by their sheer numbers.

There is a significant market for quality, as evidenced by Blu-Ray sales. With TVs getting better and bigger and cheaper every year, more and more people are bound to notice the difference between 720P and 1080P; the demand for quality video will increase dramatically. It is not necessary for one delivery system to "win". The movie studios will make more money by offering options, just like they do today. I'm convinced you will be able to purchase a license to the top quality format available, and you'll be able to download it to your local storage.
post #810 of 920
People who say you cant own anything I think are going to be mistaken, one thing you should know by now is that greed solves all problems. lol I know that sounds so bad but sooner or later companies are always going to be asking whats the new hot business model that increases profits. So lets say we move to all streaming and pay per view the consumers quickly normalize to some amount of money they are used to paying for that say $1. Companies try to get more money from people by messing with things like extra content, higher definition etc... But what next? One day some company exec wakes up and says, some people want to own a downloadable DRM free copy and they are willing to pay $15 for it, suddenly my max $5 sale goes up in profit by $10. And then it becomes the next big industry buzz. That's how this stuff always works, no new ideas in the world just cycling through old ones over and over and consumers just seem to get a kick out of all that.
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