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Best setup out there below $10k - Page 5

post #121 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Just an analogy, perhaps not a good one though.

My point was that we are all just making personal opinions, and it does not make it unequivocal just because someone has heard all the speakers; it's still just a personal preference.
I agree. I'm just trying to give as neutral and objective an opinion as possible. biggrin.gif

Is it not fair for 10 people to make 10 different recommendations without having to "prove" that their speakers are the better choice?

One person can recommend JTR. One can recommend Seaton, Another can recommend Ascend, Salk, Revel, KEF, etc.

There is no need to argue why one is better because it's all based on personal preference.

What is wrong with me recommending the Klpisch KL-650THX based on Audioholics' and HTM's rave reviews and the fact that they objectively measure +/-1dB from 200Hz-10kHz on both Audioholics & Home Theater Magazine? Staff members from Audioholics and Home Theater Magazine have listened to hundreds of great speakers.

That's my opinion. People can move on and recommend anything they want. Why fight my opinion because I believe in speaker measurements?

You weren't trying to be neutral though, you were pushing the Ultra2 set up and basically saying that JTR aren't a valid option because there's no measurements to prove how good they were. And there was no way they could be better then the Klipsch because Audioholics was raving about the Ultra2's!

Not too mention that you still have only READ how great they are because you've never heard them. I'm not going to beat a dead horse, but don't try to play the victim. You didn't like the fact that people were speaking up and saying they felt that JTR's were a step up and that rubbed you the wrong way and then proceeded to go on by saying without measurements it was all hearsay.
post #122 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I agree. I'm just trying to give as neutral and objective an opinion as possible. biggrin.gif

Is it not fair for 10 people to make 10 different recommendations without having to "prove" that their speakers are the better choice?

One person can recommend JTR. One can recommend Seaton, Another can recommend Ascend, Salk, Revel, KEF, etc.

There is no need to argue why one is better because it's all based on personal preference.

What is wrong with me recommending the Klpisch KL-650THX based on Audioholics' and HTM's rave reviews and the fact that they objectively measure +/-1dB from 200Hz-10kHz on both Audioholics & Home Theater Magazine? Staff members from Audioholics and Home Theater Magazine have listened to hundreds of great speakers.

That's my opinion. People can move on and recommend anything they want. Why fight my opinion because I believe in speaker measurements?

Oh, I know. I wasn't really disputing you, but was just pointing out it wasn't only JTR by any means. If bias were to be eliminated as much as possible with true double blind, level matched A/B comparisons, I wonder how many of these various fanboys would actually still pick their speaker of preference?

For all we know, JTR may measure even better than the Klipsch THX system, but unless and until they are ever subjected to the exact same set of measurements by the same 3rd party, we won't know for sure one way or the other.
post #123 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Those JTR sure as heck can't sound any better than the speakers I own. smile.gif

And if you think so, then, well it's your opinion. smile.gif

You are clearly not funds limited. How about a friendly challenge? Order a pair of Noesis to compare against everything else that you own. Test them out in some head-to-head and/or AB switching comparisons.

I would love to elaborate on my response, but I'm on my cell so I can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Just an analogy, perhaps not a good one though.

My point was that we are all just making personal opinions, and it does not make it unequivocal just because someone has heard all the speakers; it's still just a personal preference.
I agree. I'm just trying to give as neutral and objective an opinion as possible. biggrin.gif

Is it not fair for 10 people to make 10 different recommendations without having to "prove" that their speakers are the better choice?

One person can recommend JTR. One can recommend Seaton, Another can recommend Ascend, Salk, Revel, KEF, etc.

There is no need to argue why one is better because it's all based on personal preference.

What is wrong with me recommending the Klpisch KL-650THX based on Audioholics' and HTM's rave reviews and the fact that they objectively measure +/-1dB from 200Hz-10kHz on both Audioholics & Home Theater Magazine? Staff members from Audioholics and Home Theater Magazine have listened to hundreds of great speakers.

That's my opinion. People can move on and recommend anything they want. Why fight my opinion because I believe in speaker measurements?

I get your drift man. I totally agree with your stance on personal preference.

That said, +/- 1db from 200Hz-10kHz is a notable achievement, but what is the response that most people expect from their LCR mains? What do you cross your subs at? I cross my Klipsch Reference RF-7II's at 80Hz and I have never heard anyone say they cross at 200Hz, have you? So, what is their response from...say 120Hz-20kHz? 120Hz is the highest end of the .1 LFE spectrum.

Look, I am 100% for objective measurements. However, I believe anyone touting a response of +/- 1db from 200Hz-10kHz is incorporating their subjective interpretation of what they think (or want someone else to think) is a good response.
post #124 of 237
Quote:
Sub 1: JTR Captivator 2400 @ $2.5k

This one isn't sealed. Would one of these be good enough for now? Does anyone have an alternate recommendation on a sub? I want strong and precise LFE for HT but it needs to keep up with music as well.


Whichever sub you decide on....get two (hell, your room is huge....get 4). Even in my small (2800 cubic foot) room adding the second sub made a huge difference as far as evening out the voids and peaks. I'd think that would be an even bigger obstacle in your very large room.
post #125 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

You are clearly not funds limited. How about a friendly challenge? Order a pair of Noesis to compare against everything else that you own. Test them out in some head-to-head and/or AB switching comparisons.

I would love to elaborate on my response, but I'm on my cell so I can't.
I get your drift man. I totally agree with your stance on personal preference.

That said, +/- 1db from 200Hz-10kHz is a notable achievement, but what is the response that most people expect from their LCR mains? What do you cross your subs at? I cross my Klipsch Reference RF-7II's at 80Hz and I have never heard anyone say they cross at 200Hz, have you? So, what is their response from...say 120Hz-20kHz? 120Hz is the highest end of the .1 LFE spectrum.

Look, I am 100% for objective measurements. However, I believe anyone touting a response of +/- 1db from 200Hz-10kHz is incorporating their subjective interpretation of what they think (or want someone else to think) is a good response.

The KL-650-THX's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.00/–0.87 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. An average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal responses measures +1.53/–0.56 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. The –3dB point is at 56 Hz, and the –6dB point is at 49 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 4.15 ohms at 174 Hz and a phase angle of –59.88 degrees at 96 Hz.

It is flat down to 56Hz.



post #126 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

The KL-650-THX's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.00/–0.87 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. An average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal responses measures +1.53/–0.56 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. The –3dB point is at 56 Hz, and the –6dB point is at 49 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 4.15 ohms at 174 Hz and a phase angle of –59.88 degrees at 96 Hz.

It is flat down to 56Hz.




Just out of curiosity but why are you posting these?
post #127 of 237
Is tis a living room, family room, basement, delicated theatre room?
If basement or theatre then high sensitive industrial looking speaker are great, but for family room I can see a prob with with waf. Just my 2c.
post #128 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Just out of curiosity but why are you posting these?

He is excited, he found a new speaker to buy.
post #129 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

He is excited, he found a new speaker to buy.

Bwahahahah.....lol
post #130 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by blake18 View Post

I am glad people are happy with their upgrades, I have heard JTR and Seaton speakers, but still prefer Klipsch.

Where did you hear both JTR & Seaton speakers? Which models?
post #131 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Just out of curiosity but why are you posting these?

Geez, do I need to justify every post? eek.gif

Look at the quotes I used in my post. I was answering a question Popalock asked. Here, let me repost his question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

That said, +/- 1db from 200Hz-10kHz is a notable achievement, but what is the response that most people expect from their LCR mains? What do you cross your subs at? I cross my Klipsch Reference RF-7II's at 80Hz and I have never heard anyone say they cross at 200Hz, have you? So, what is their response from...say 120Hz-20kHz?

TAKE HOME MESSAGE: Yes, the Klipsch KL-650 are FLAT & ACCURATE (+/-3dB) from 56Hz-20kHz. They are ultra accurate (+/-1dB) in the most critical listening window of 200Hz-10kHz, actually from 90Hz-10kHz. Due to room modes and reflections, bass measurements below 200Hz are usually not accurate. Hence many people use the listening window of 200Hz-10kHz. So yes, the fine print is that you can safely cross your sub to 80Hz.
post #132 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

He is excited, he found a new speaker to buy.

Well, I haven't decided to buy or not. biggrin.gif

It's just that all these years I've always told people that Klipsch are like +/-5dB FR because even their $20K Palladium speakers are +/-5dB FR. biggrin.gif

And now I JUST FOUND OUT that their THX Ultra2 speakers are confirmed by not one, but TWO 3rd sources, to have a FR listening window of +/-1dB!

I think I'm an open-minded person. biggrin.gif I give credit where it is due. I believe these Klipsch deserve the credit.

I'm just shocked. I can't believe it. No one else is shocked? biggrin.gif

Heck, I was delightfully surprised when I saw my 802D2 measured +/-2.9dB listening window on HTM. biggrin.gif

And these freaking Klipsch are +/-1dB?

Okay, let's not put more into this than just FR measurements. They are just FR. biggrin.gif

I mean anyone who is familiar with me on AH & AVS knows that I have NEVER recommended or praised Klipsch. EVER. Until this week! But I refuse preconceived notions and premature judgements. biggrin.gif

When I see JTR speaker measurements, I will do the same. Fair is fair. biggrin.gif
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 4/12/13 at 5:58am
post #133 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

Oh, I know. I wasn't really disputing you, but was just pointing out it wasn't only JTR by any means. If bias were to be eliminated as much as possible with true double blind, level matched A/B comparisons, I wonder how many of these various fanboys would actually still pick their speaker of preference?

For all we know, JTR may measure even better than the Klipsch THX system, but unless and until they are ever subjected to the exact same set of measurements by the same 3rd party, we won't know for sure one way or the other.

I agree.

Same 3rd party measurement like Audioholics would be great.

But I would take a speaker measurement from JTR as a starter, but they don't even believe in speaker measurement! eek.gif

If someone does not want to provide their own speaker measurements or does not even believe in them, how can we expect them to let Audioholics measure their speakers? biggrin.gif
post #134 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I agree.

Same 3rd party measurement like Audioholics would be great.

But I would take a speaker measurement from JTR as a starter, but they don't even believe in speaker measurement! eek.gif

If someone does not want to provide their own speaker measurements or does not even believe in them, how can we expect them to let Audioholics measure their speakers? biggrin.gif
There are two reasons for a manufacturer not having measurements: They don't have them, or they don't want you to see them. Whichever the case is they should not be rewarded with your business.
Besides, you can't get away with trying to hide how your cabs measure when anyone with an $85 mic, a laptop and measurement freeware can measure them. The downside there is that a degree of expertise is required to get an accurate result, so if you don't want someone who doesn't know how to measure response posting charts for you you'll get out in front of the issue and post accurate charts yourself. But still too many manufacturers have this attitude about it:
post #135 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

You weren't trying to be neutral...

I have never owned Klipsch, never recommended Klipsch, never praised Klipsch... I am NOT a Klipsch fanboy as you are a JTR fanboy. Crystal clear.

I am basing my comments PURELY based on OBJECTIVE data, not biased subjective fanboy opinions.

According to ACTUAL DOUBLE-BLINDED RESEARCH done & well published by Dr Floyd Toole, speakers with accurate speaker measurements (FR) will be PREFERRED by most people.

Objective data + Double-blinded research = neutral.

Fanboy + biased opinions = NOT neutral.
post #136 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

There are two reasons for a manufacturer not having measurements: They don't have them, or they don't want you to see them. Whichever the case is they should not be rewarded with your business.
Besides, you can't get away with trying to hide how your cabs measure when anyone with an $85 mic, a laptop and measurement freeware can measure them. The downside there is that a degree of expertise is required to get an accurate result, so if you don't want someone who doesn't know how to measure response posting charts for you you'll get out in front of the issue and post accurate charts yourself. But still too many manufacturers have this attitude about it:

Thank you!

A friend of mine was interested in buying new speakers. So like many audiophiles, he did preliminary research on speaker measurements. He called a few manufacturers, but to his disappointment he was denied a few times. He then called KEF and was fortunate to reach an actual KEF engineer. He asked the KEF engineer if he could see the speaker measurements of the KEF R series. The KEF engineer then emailed him the measurements.

Imagine that!

Now the point is NOT that only speakers that measure great anechoic or pseudo-anechoic will sound great. It is subjective.

But if clients want it, they deserve to see these baseline/ neutral measurements.

...Assuming that these speakers were tested and measured and not just put together "blindly". eek.gif
post #137 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

...Assuming that these speakers were tested and measured and not just put together "blindly". eek.gif
I wouldn't think that would be the case with a name brand manufacturer, but it's very often true with off-brands. But that hits the nail on the head, you cannot create a speaker and 'get it right' if you don't take measurements, and a lot of them at that. So if a manufacturer won't provide them the motive for not doing so should be highly suspect.
post #138 of 237
I wonder if the quality of the Klipsch THX series is the same back in the late 2000's as it is now since Audiovox purchased Klipsch. I have seen several reviews that show the specs that were measured did not match Klipsch specs on more recent speaker reviews. Makes you wonder.

That said, I have heard the Klipsch speakers Acudeftech recommended and they are quite good IMHO. And I am not a Klipsch fanboy at all, but I would recommend these speakers as well on a deal. I have not heard the newer JTR speakers, but have been reading good things.

I do agree that manufacturers should provide measurements for all their speakers and subs, but I prefer they come from a respected third party.
post #139 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Thank you!

A friend of mine was interested in buying new speakers. So like many audiophiles, he did preliminary research on speaker measurements. He called a few manufacturers, but to his disappointment he was denied a few times. He then called KEF and was fortunate to reach an actual KEF engineer. He asked the KEF engineer if he could see the speaker measurements of the KEF R series. The KEF engineer then emailed him the measurements.

Imagine that!

Now the point is NOT that only speakers that measure great anechoic or pseudo-anechoic will sound great. It is subjective.

But if clients want it, they deserve to see these baseline/ neutral measurements.

...Assuming that these speakers were tested and measured and not just put together "blindly". eek.gif


Yup and soon after...I believe he purchased some DT's for all his troubles.
post #140 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

Yup and soon after...I believe he purchased some DT's for all his troubles.

He wanted the KEF R900, but didn't want to spend $5K for them. biggrin.gif

So it came down to Q900 vs BP7001SC. He was able to audition the BP7001SC (which MEASURED +/-3dB FR on S&V Magazine) and loved the sound. Got the BP7001SC for $1800 delivered locally.

You are not obligated to purchase just because the manufacturer provides measurements and information. Measurement is a good start. But audition and price and other factors come in play.

The point is, he refused to support manufacturers that denied him speaker measurements, as Bill suggests.

Of all the ID companies, Ascend equivocally provides the most in-depth measurements of their speaker (Sierra).

I would say that the Ascend Sierra sounds great and measures great, but some people think I can't say that because I've never heard Ascend speakers. biggrin.gif

I could speak vicariously through you since you have heard Ascend. biggrin.gif
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 4/12/13 at 8:28am
post #141 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I have never owned Klipsch, never recommended Klipsch, never praised Klipsch... I am NOT a Klipsch fanboy as you are a JTR fanboy. Crystal clear.

I am basing my comments PURELY based on OBJECTIVE data, not biased subjective fanboy opinions.

According to ACTUAL DOUBLE-BLINDED RESEARCH done & well published by Dr Floyd Toole, speakers with accurate speaker measurements (FR) will be PREFERRED by most people.

Objective data + Double-blinded research = neutral.

Fanboy + biased opinions = NOT neutral.

I like how you take one small part from my post to quote but leave out the rest.

You've never recommended Klipsch before but you feel the need to argue that JTR's can't sound better because they don't have any measurements available even though guys have switched from Ultra2's and liked the JTR's better. Then you go on and call me a fanboy rolleyes.gif You seem to be pushing a speaker you've never heard before pretty hard to a guy as a recommendation so who's the fanboy.

I also pointed out that I do like the Klipsch speakers and thought about getting them for my theater, but felt that IMO the JTR's would be less money and that some people who have HEARD both liked the JTR's and switched to them.
post #142 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Of all the ID companies, Ascend equivocally provides the most in-depth measurements of their speaker (Sierra).

Dennis Murphy has a whole bunch of measurements for his Philharmonics on his website, at least as many as Ascends.
post #143 of 237
Listen AcuDefTechGuy, at the end of the day I know that the Klipsch Ultra2's is a nice setup. I'm not trying to dispute that with you. But I just don't see who you can brush off the JTR speakers because there's no measurements. Everyone's entitled to their opinions and I except that, so you like what you like and I'll like what I like.
post #144 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

But that hits the nail on the head, you cannot create a speaker and 'get it right' if you don't take measurements, and a lot of them at that. So if a manufacturer won't provide them the motive for not doing so should be highly suspect.

I don't know, you didn't provide any comprehensive group of measurements for some of the Tuba plans I purchased, unless they are buried somewhere. You product pages only provide a simple freq response, thats typical of 99.99999% of speaker companys. So I have the AutoTuba plans and theres nothing in them like, Max Output Before Compression, Spectral Decay, Group Delay, Waterfall, Spectrogram, Harmonic Distortion, ect... All those should be readily available for each product on each page, it shouldn't be buried in the forum (haven't found it yet) and it should be included in the plans as well.

So by your standards you products should be highly suspect as well. But, I went ahead and purchased you plans anyway because the actual user accounts (not lines on a page) showed that its great stuff and raved about. Autotuba sounds great worked out perfect, hard to build but well work the effort. I would probably buy more plans based on the rave reviews and from my experience.
post #145 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

I don't know, you didn't provide any comprehensive group of measurements for some of the Tuba plans I purchased, unless they are buried somewhere.
I provide more data than 90% of the speaker companies out there, so I'm not going to make any apologies for not going into greater detail than I do. Let's see, I charge $14.95 for plans that provide axial and 45 degree plots. Most companies that charge hundreds, thousands, even hundreds of thousands of dollars for their speakers give you...nothing. I think you're busting the wrong guy's chops.
post #146 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I provide more data than 90% of the speaker companies out there, so I'm not going to make any apologies for not going into greater detail than I do. Let's see, I charge $14.95 for plans that provide axial and 45 degree plots. Most companies that charge hundreds, thousands, even hundreds of thousands of dollars for their speakers give you...nothing. I think you're busting the wrong guy's chops.

No i'm not trying to give you a hard time. Its well known that you feel that if a company doesn't provide a certain comprehensive list of measurements that they don't deserve anyone business and that they are suspect (bad design? incompetence?).

Since you an engineer who spends alot of time developing and designed a product you have a vast amount of measurements available. So why isn't there more measurements for you Tuba plans than just a basic freq response. Isn't Max Output Before Compression, Spectral Decay, Group Delay, Waterfall, Spectrogram, Harmonic Distortion, all very important in analyzing a subwoofers performance?

I have the AutoTuba plans and theres not a single measurement in them. Whether I pay $15 or $1500 it still should provide a comprehensive list. After all you needed all those measurements to design the speaker right?

If your not willing to publish those list of results like I listed, then why is it so horrible if others do the same as you?

I guess my point is that whether you publish them or not isn't going to keep people from purchasing you stuff. I'm going to buy more plans, i'm just wondering why it seems like a double standard.
post #147 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

So why isn't there more measurements for you Tuba plans than just a basic freq response. Isn't Max Output Before Compression, Spectral Decay, Group Delay, Waterfall, Spectrogram, Harmonic Distortion, all very important in analyzing a subwoofers performance?
As a matter of fact, no. For that matter where subs are concerned even off-axis measurements are moot, as subs have an omni-directional output pattern. What is of some concern is the driver displacement/xmax, which some manufacturers provide, but if you're building the speaker you know that anyway, since you spec'd the driver. And as far as my pro-sound subs are concerned, where limiting amplifier output to a specific voltage is a necessity to prevent over-excursion and potentially blowing drivers, every model's plans has that information. AFAIK not a single subwoofer manufacturer, be it pro or consumer grade, provides that. None.
post #148 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Dennis Murphy has a whole bunch of measurements for his Philharmonics on his website, at least as many as Ascends.

Ascends have been measured by Soundstage in the NRC though, IIRC, the only other ID speaker brand to do so besides Salah/Rick (I did not count NHT since most if not all of their models measured there were done when they were still a B&M model).
post #149 of 237
As someone else asked, is this room a dedicated space, or a living room? I sure hope that it's a dedicated space, because a room that size will probably sound horrible no matter what you put in it. And it'll be difficult to treat well if it's a multi purpose space, due to WAF.
post #150 of 237
Thread Starter 
So....I took the advice from one of the guys here and actually listened to some speakers today at a local dealer that carries a ton of brands (nothing low-end). I listened to a variety of vendors and was blown away by one specific vendor. GoldenEar.

The sonic accuracy was simply awesome. I listened to 2.0, 5.1, 5.2 and 7.x setups in their 'very large' roome. They have multiple discreet rooms at different sizes.

These guys are real enthusiast and lean towards music vs HT but I was able to test my choice setup in an HT setup as will.

They sounded awesome at all level. I couldn't detect distortions as I dialed up the volume.

Anyone have any experience with these?

Triton 2 (fronts) down to 16hz with built-in subs at $3k for the pair

Supersat 60 (center) at $800


Supersat (RL & RR) at $500 for the pair

The bass was great with this setup but I'll probably add one or two of their Forcefield woofer.

The RCAM FMJ AVR400 may be a great addition for this setup. I listened to it and was really amazed by it.

Thoughts?

Michael
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