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Official ST60 input lag thread - Page 5

post #121 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post

I think that's a pretty slow time for a blink...maybe full start of the movement to full finish. Can you blink more than 4 times in one second? If so than you're not blinking at 300 ms. You're doing it faster. I think the frame of reference is somewhat off. I was also a bit skeptical that the videos were entirely accurate, but I think we sometimes underestimate these small time frames as they really start to add up.

I really hope you are right about it not being an issue, as the black level is just what I want (and can actually afford!), PQ seems outstanding, 3D, and I can afford a larger size. But as I sit there last night for example and play "Injustice: Gods Among Us" and enter in combos in training mode, I think about that lag time of 0.1 of a second and how fast these inputs are, and I cringe a bit...

Haha so I tried counting my manual blink speed (I assume the numbers online were for involuntary blinking). It's about as fast as my "internal dialog", meaning I can blink as fast as I can think of a number. I can't think 1-2-3-4 in less than a second. 300ms was also an average. The numbers I read ranged from 250-450ms.
post #122 of 1308
I think we can all agree...

1) the videos posted, when played back to back, should raise concern

2) the variance in the videos does sure look like more than ~50ms in input lag

3) more input lag testing/results would be appreciated and would hopefully put an end to speculation
post #123 of 1308
Yeah more testing would be greatly appreciated. I just cancelled my panasonic preorder for the ST60. After looking at the cnet video review it just looks like tons of JUNK is bogging this set down, there's even a calendar for christs sake lol.

I'm hoping a firmware update that stops the background apps/etc will fix it, but if not not sure what I'm going to do. Sold my set about 3 months ago just waiting for these new sets to drop, I refuse to go LCD, and didn't want to spend over $1800. Thanks for the testing though whoever did it so far, def helps
post #124 of 1308
I just wish Samsung had a model other than their F8500 series that would compete with the ST60 on PQ and Value. Since the F8500 series is so expensive and also Samsung only makes a 51" and 60" in that series.
post #125 of 1308
I fired off an email to Panasonic support btw. Another voice to add to the rest asking about this input lag issue.

I think if they can repeatedly duplicate those 48-50 ms results with settings then that might be enough for me to go ahead and go with this set (3-4 frames lag...mostly 4). But 80-100 ms...just can't do it.
post #126 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post

I fired off an email to Panasonic support btw. Another voice to add to the rest asking about this input lag issue.

I think if they can repeatedly duplicate those 48-50 ms results with settings then that might be enough for me to go ahead and go with this set (3-4 frames lag...mostly 4). But 80-100 ms...just can't do it.

I game extensively, and am very sensitive to input lag. I never have any issues and regularly post a 2.0+ KD on Call of Duty playing on this set. I also play on "Hardcore" where twitch response is very critical, and I still dominate routinely.

These posts about input lag are so overblown.
post #127 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkAELSU View Post

Yeah more testing would be greatly appreciated. I just cancelled my panasonic preorder for the ST60. After looking at the cnet video review it just looks like tons of JUNK is bogging this set down, there's even a calendar for christs sake lol.

I'm hoping a firmware update that stops the background apps/etc will fix it, but if not not sure what I'm going to do. Sold my set about 3 months ago just waiting for these new sets to drop, I refuse to go LCD, and didn't want to spend over $1800. Thanks for the testing though whoever did it so far, def helps

Thats exactly what it is. A hexa-core cpu can handle that sort of bloat, but the single-core ST60 has to make sacrifices. All it would require is an off option haha. It very fixable, it's only a question of whether or not panasonic will step up to the plate. I hate smart tv features. Why give me things I can manage better on other devices?
post #128 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by moshock View Post

I think we can all agree...

1) the videos posted, when played back to back, should raise concern

2) the variance in the videos does sure look like more than ~50ms in input lag

3) more input lag testing/results would be appreciated and would hopefully put an end to speculation

Right now our best sources are users in this thread. I've seen plenty of people voice opinions on the televisions playability, and only one saying they experienced issues with Ninja Gaiden on the NES. One user calibrated Guitar Hero at ~40ms...Those videos everyone keeps referencing are garbage for multiple reasons. A delay THAT large wouldn't exist even if the S60 was 0ms and the ST60 100ms. Would I like the lag lessened? Of course, but I'm not going to turn down the best valued TV in years for an issue that will only affect me 1/1000 times. Skill has way more of an impact. I understand the retro gamer concerns, as those games are made for CRT, but the vast majority of modern gamers will be fine...if not great because the image looks so good biggrin.gif.
post #129 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post

I fired off an email to Panasonic support btw. Another voice to add to the rest asking about this input lag issue.

I think if they can repeatedly duplicate those 48-50 ms results with settings then that might be enough for me to go ahead and go with this set (3-4 frames lag...mostly 4). But 80-100 ms...just can't do it.

Thats the best we can do at this point. The quicker its brought to their attention at launch, the greater chance something will be done.
post #130 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Would you PLEASE stop arguing about whether or not it is noticeable? If you like the PQ, great! Keep it in the other ST60 thread like how I was kind enough to take the input lag issue to its own thread.

Dabois, sure, you game extensively, so do I. I tend to notice it on this set, and I just got done playing a Street Fighter 2 session on it, and I was getting hit by the display lag pretty bad. I had to switch over to my CRT monitor because of it. Even the UT50 was playable, but the ST60 is just unplayable for that game, especially online. It's going to be like that with other fighters, and I'm even noticing animations getting finished after their sound effects. Unless you have some real, scientific proof under a controlled test environment that the lag is ok, please just stick to the other thread and rave about the PQ and the set there. The numbers are in, it's unacceptable for gaming. You aren't adding anything to the thread by coming in and giving everyone your very subjective opinion on the issue.

Stump909, you're not helping any either. Just get out, because you have no reason to be in this thread as you obviously aren't using the set as a monitor like our good friend midkay (who happily created a set of videos showing how bad the ST60) is and you aren't gaming like those of us who are looking for a reasonable/PQ ratio solution. How you can possibly sit there and tell people that the difference between the two sets isn't noticeable when it's there for everyone to see, and how you can not even understand that both sets function identically with 1080p direct (the S60 was noted as getting edge halos by midkay, same as the ST60) and that midkay had them both set up the same, I don't know how you can do this. Rave about the deserving praise for PQ over in the ST60 thread.

No matter how you look at it, you guys can talk all the non-sense about blink of an eye crap but seriously. The numbers are speaking for themselves. A $1000+ set should NOT have such high input lag, especially when the set below it and all the sets above it in the 2012 and 2013 line ups are clocking in at half the delay. Half!
post #131 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post


Stump909, you're not helping any either. Just get out, because you have no reason to be in this thread as you obviously aren't using the set as a monitor like our good friend midkay (who happily created a set of videos showing how bad the ST60) is and you aren't gaming like those of us who are looking for a reasonable/PQ ratio solution. How you can possibly sit there and tell people that the difference between the two sets isn't noticeable when it's there for everyone to see, and how you can not even understand that both sets function identically with 1080p direct (the S60 was noted as getting edge halos by midkay, same as the ST60) and that midkay had them both set up the same, I don't know how you can do this. Rave about the deserving praise for PQ over in the ST60 thread.

Half!

I'm a professional in the industry of image reproduction. I know what I'm talking about, and I can see test flaws from a mile away. Don't tell me to get out because you enjoy whining and believe this thread is for you to voice only your point of view. It's clear to everyone you are not satisfied with your TV and that fantastic. Someone needs to clear the air and point out issues when they see them. You seem to believe that your experience is the end all for everyone despite the fact multiple people have come out and said the set is perfectly playable. I'm telling you objectively, there's no way those videos can be accurate representations unless the ST60 is 100's of milliseconds behind S60 (which we know its not). Just return your TV and be done with it. If you've already done that, go find another TV that meets your needs. I am helping. I'm helping those users your scaring by informing them of other user experiences that you seem to ignore over and over again.
post #132 of 1308
^^^This, to Moonchilde

I thought this thread was set up for people to NOT talk about the PQ and defend their TV purchase, but to figure out more info on how the ST60 (and by comparison, the S60) does with lag and finding ways to help remedy it. The stuff I keep reading "it's not noticeable", well good for you. There's an equal number on here that say it's very noticeable for twitch-type games that require low lag.

You won't feel lag when playing a final fantasy game. You WILL feel it in Street Fighter or Halo. I'd like to get the discussion back to where it was originally headed.
post #133 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Stump909, you're not helping because you aren't bringing any objective facts to the thread. All you do is post subjective non-sense. This is about the input lag on a pretty fantastic TV. Stop filling it with garbage, or post something useful. Hey, if you have the TV, why don't you do a camera input lag test? We've been asking for that now for other users of the set, so instead of measuring your human eye blinks with your human brain, how about we do something a little more absolute and scientific?

Or, rave about the TV. In the other thread.
post #134 of 1308
So the solution is to disable all the background apps because the poor CPU can't keep up.

My question is will Panny assign any of its employees to actually fix this, especially considering that they just shut down their plasma R&D department?
post #135 of 1308
Thread Starter 
I should have some kind of answer by the end of the week from Panny, and when I get it, I'll update the thread for sure. We'll see how they respond. If they respond, as I predict they will, that it falls within the TV spec, then we're out of luck and there is nothing we can do. If that's the case, I wouldn't purchase the TV with any hope that Panny will fix it. If they do say it's unusual and they'll look into it, I still won't hold my breath.

If it really is a bogged down CPU, then a custom firmware would most likely be the only viable solution.

If it's any other combination of possible causes, such as in general slow hardware, then it most certainly won't be fixable.
post #136 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

^^^This, to Moonchilde

I thought this thread was set up for people to NOT talk about the PQ and defend their TV purchase, but to figure out more info on how the ST60 (and by comparison, the S60) does with lag and finding ways to help remedy it. The stuff I keep reading "it's not noticeable", well good for you. There's an equal number on here that say it's very noticeable for twitch-type games that require low lag.

You won't feel lag when playing a final fantasy game. You WILL feel it in Street Fighter or Halo. I'd like to get the discussion back to where it was originally headed.

HAH, Halo? A game that requires multiple headshots to kill an enemy? If 80ms is ruining your skill then you've got bigger problems.
post #137 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Dude, seriously. Give it up. Calling in the realism of frick'n games is ridiculous. Do I need to report you for derailing threads?
post #138 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by spidertaker23 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

Honestly, by the looks of it, the value of this TV won't be beat. My hype was squashed a bit by the input lag information, but based on the input of multiple gamers, I'm not too worried. Input lag has a strong factor in older games, but newer console games will be affected less than you would believe. Even if the total input lag were to reach 250ms from start to finish (with all factors accounted for), that's still faster than the blink of an eye. It might lack PC game responsiveness, but its far far from unresponsive. Also, now that is seems the problem is software related, there is a small chance it could be fixed (Don't buy expecting a fix however). The videos here demonstrating the input lag of the S60 vs St60 are nonsense and should not be taken seriously. Lag that noticeable would be 500ms+, not 50.

You opinion does quelch my fears a bit. Since there are basically no competitors to the ST60 as far as PQ and value go.

I wonder how much I will notice. Currently I have a LG 32LH30 regular LCD tv that I bought in Feb 2010.

I just don't want to spend over $1,000 on a tv and regret it.

I upgraded from at "LG 42lk520 120hz LCD" and what a world of difference it is.
post #139 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Stump909, you're not helping because you aren't bringing any objective facts to the thread. All you do is post subjective non-sense. This is about the input lag on a pretty fantastic TV. Stop filling it with garbage, or post something useful. Hey, if you have the TV, why don't you do a camera input lag test? We've been asking for that now for other users of the set, so instead of measuring your human eye blinks with your human brain, how about we do something a little more absolute and scientific?

Or, rave about the TV. In the other thread.

I've brought plenty of objective facts in the form of user reports you ignore. So the guy that calibrated Guitar Hero at ~40ms is full of sh!t but anyone who says it's unplayable is objective? How bout the first set of screen photos that logged ~50ms? I understand your numbers are less than desirable, especially for the games you play, but you sitting here acting like the screen responds seconds after you touch the controls. I've already agreed, in this day in age, 80ms is pretty unacceptable from an industry standpoint. I would like it to be faster, but I know OBJECTIVELY 80ms is only a problem if the entire relay from controller input to screen response is more than 150+ms. The eye blink numbers are for reference only and can be found on multiple sources (again objective facts). If you believe you can process minute differences that fall within that speed, then you must have the vision of gods. Millisecond differences do count, but only in specific scenarios that you tend to favor.
post #140 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Dude, seriously. Give it up. Calling in the realism of frick'n games is ridiculous. Do I need to report you for derailing threads?

It has nothing to do with the games realism, and more to do with the fact it takes a large chunk of time to kill an enemy. Go ahead and report me so you can make it the "Moonchild Vent Thread".
post #141 of 1308
Thread Starter 
1. Guitar Hero test has a human element, thus it becomes subjective.

2. You have brought no objective facts, no numbers, nothing other than subjective opinion and eye blink statements.

3. I asked for the testing conditions on the 50 ms camera test, as I'd like to know what it is so I can try to duplicate it. However, keep in mind that is a EU model, not a NA model. Perhaps if this is a software bloat issue, that the NA model has more services running. Either way, I don't have a response yet.

This isn't a vent thread. This is a thread to share input lag information, not whether or not some people feel it and some don't. Either help out and add some numbers to the pool by taking a camera test or get lost. We'd appreciate objective material, not your opinions. You chiming in that it feels ok doesn't matter, what matters is, is the set really this laggy? And, to that, you haven't helped out, and you haven't added any numbers, and you've just about derailed the thread to the point of 3 pages worth of defending the lag rather than being objective about the information.

In case you missed, I've actually stated the numbers just can't be that high, so getting more numbers would help whittle down the errors. Or did you miss that in all your defensive posting?
post #142 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

1. Guitar Hero test has a human element, thus it becomes subjective.

As are your tests. Multiple users have tried to help you limit the variables, but its still human controlled. With Guitar Hero, at least we've got an individual's results with a current gen game (and games are the whole point of this thread right?). With the ST60 he is able to play a game and the precision of his playing is only limited 40ms by the display. Human factor, issue based result.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

2. You have brought no objective facts, no numbers, nothing other than subjective opinion and eye blink statements.
I'm simply relaying perspectives that you don't agree with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

3. I asked for the testing conditions on the 50 ms camera test, as I'd like to know what it is so I can try to duplicate it. However, keep in mind that is a EU model, not a NA model. Perhaps if this is a software bloat issue, that the NA model has more services running. Either way, I don't have a response yet.

Again, I agree with you. I've seen objective results related to your scenario and would like to work to resolve them, but from everything I've read/seen there could be hundreds or reasons for the good results and your bad results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

[This isn't a vent thread. This is a thread to share input lag information, not whether or not some people feel it and some don't. Either help out and add some numbers to the pool by taking a camera test or get lost. We'd appreciate objective material, not your opinions. You chiming in that it feels ok doesn't matter, what matters is, is the set really this laggy? And, to that, you haven't helped out, and you haven't added any numbers, and you've just about derailed the thread to the point of 3 pages worth of defending the lag rather than being objective about the information
In case you missed, I've actually stated the numbers just can't be that high, so getting more numbers would help whittle down the errors. Or did you miss that in all your defensive posting?
.

If you don't want it to be seen as every other complaint thread, you should allow perspectives that contradict yours. If only those who find it terrible are allowed then it doesn't become information thread. I'm not disagreeing with you because I'm some sort of fanboy, in fact I'm not disagreeing with you at all, I'm saying there are others out there who are enjoying gaming without an negative things to say about the input delay. I'm also providing persepctive for people who don't initially comprehend the span of time we're talking about. Numbers of this value are quickly compared with money and quantity. $80 sounds like a whole lot more than $40.
post #143 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

Nonsense...how so?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

First off we have no details of the environment or the equipment used to record. We do know game mode was disabled and pixel direct enabled. Pixel Direct, at the moment, does not work correctly on the ST60. It creates horrible edge halos either because it wasn't supposed to be a feature or it needs fixing. Second, if the setup was the exact same for both televisions, there should be no discernible difference (especially on a youtube video). Let's say the S60 is 35ms and the ST60 80ms. If the input source was handled the same, a difference of 45ms would not be visible on camera. You might be able to feel a difference if you went back and forth between the TVs (especially with older NES side-scrollers), but visually it can't be registered. Again, the human eye blinks at 300ms and that can be considered instantaneous.

Yes. This is the AV Science forum after all, where only the most careful experimentation & rigorous analytic methods will be tolerated- so unless every detail of every possible variable & environmental condition is accounted for & controlled, it is not perfectly repeatable & MUST be thrown out as complete nonsense.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

Haha so I tried counting my manual blink speed (I assume the numbers online were for involuntary blinking). It's about as fast as my "internal dialog", meaning I can blink as fast as I can think of a number. I can't think 1-2-3-4 in less than a second. 300ms was also an average. The numbers I read ranged from 250-450ms.

Now that's what I call SCIENCE!
post #144 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon! View Post


Yes. This is the AV Science forum after all, where only the most careful experimentation & rigorous analytic methods will be tolerated- so unless every detail of every possible variable & environmental condition is accounted for & controlled, it is not perfectly repeatable & MUST be thrown out as complete nonsense.
Now that's what I call SCIENCE!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon! View Post


Yes. This is the AV Science forum after all, where only the most careful experimentation & rigorous analytic methods will be tolerated- so unless every detail of every possible variable & environmental condition is accounted for & controlled, it is not perfectly repeatable & MUST be thrown out as complete nonsense.
Now that's what I call SCIENCE!

1. I'm sorry, but a visual delay of that magnitude can not be greater than the difference of ST60 Delay - S60 Delay. That would require a latency great that 100ms which we KNOW is not that case even in the TV's worst scenario. Plus, since this input lag discussion is focused on games, why do we care how it performs with with latency inducing features on?

2. That was me testing my ability to manually blink 4 times (to see whether the numbers provided were due to voluntary or involuntary blinks). My guess is it's pretty close to manual since I timed it at about 1.2-1.5 seconds.
post #145 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

HAH, Halo? A game that requires multiple headshots to kill an enemy? If 80ms is ruining your skill then you've got bigger problems.
Now I see you're just being facetious. rolleyes.gif Just stop it.
post #146 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by norvegia View Post

I'm posting this again (originally posted in the Official Panasonic TC-PxxST60 Series ST60 thread):

TX-P42ST60E lag:

With "1080p Pixel Direct ON" as high as 100ms of lag


With "1080p Pixel Direct OFF" as low as 50ms of lag


Wish it was lower but it is tolerable and doesn't affect the gameplay experience in my case (I don't play multiplayer or online games on the plasma). In fact, I hadn't noticed the lag until I read it on the HDTVtest review. Finished playing Metro 2033 and it felt perfectly fine.

Just for reference...
post #147 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

Just for reference...
I remember seeing that. Not to nitpick, but there's still a few holes in that guys' post. For one, it's an EU model. Second, he gave the extremes on both ends, instead of averaging multiple values (as high as 100ms with 1080p direct, as low as 50ms with it off).

This same test done multiple times on a NA ST60 would be welcome to see, Stump.
post #148 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

I remember seeing that. Not to nitpick, but there's still a few holes in that guys' post. For one, it's an EU model. Second, he gave the extremes on both ends, instead of averaging multiple values (as high as 100ms with 1080p direct, as low as 50ms with it off).

This same test done multiple times on a NA ST60 would be welcome to see, Stump.

Then there's his experience with Metro 2033, a gaming perspective. I agree he should have used averages, but he did attain it unlike Moonchilde. Their setups are different and multiple factors affect each. We can all agree that 80ms isn't ideal, and hope Panasonic takes action. The TV might be less than perfect for certain types of games (or gamers), but this TV has been confirmed as playable by enough people to warrant gaming. If one seriously believes its unbearable, then thats their prerogative, but those who are satisfied are too busy playing to be equally represented in this thread (which a lot of people will read and possibly be misled). This is all fair game in an input lag discussion.
post #149 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

Then there's his experience with Metro 2033, a gaming perspective. I agree he should have used averages, but he did attain it unlike Moonchilde. Their setups are different and multiple factors affect each. We can all agree that 80ms isn't ideal, and hope Panasonic takes action. The TV might be less than perfect for certain types of games (or gamers), but this TV has been confirmed as playable by enough people to warrant gaming. If one seriously believes its unbearable, then thats their prerogative, but those who are satisfied are too busy playing to be equally represented in this thread (which a lot of people will read and possibly be misled). This is all fair game in an input lag discussion.
Now we've found some common ground. biggrin.gif
post #150 of 1308
Stump909 you're not being helpful. That is all I'm going to say about your comments.

Thank you Moonchilde and El Matadurr for keeping this discussion on track. And Leon! for your "Now that's what I call SCIENCE!" sarcastic quote. wink.gif
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