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Official ST60 input lag thread - Page 8

post #211 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkdilkington View Post

One thing I noticed on my ST60 is that even with 'Motion Smoothing' set to off (or Game Mode on which grays out motion smoothing), it still looks like there is frame interpolation being added. This is not the case with my ST30, which has zero input lag. Can anyone with a S60 comment on whether they noticed the same thing? If not, this would most likely be the cause of the input lag, as frame interpolation creates input lag (as does any type of post-processing effect). Even if it is though, Panasonic would probably not do anything about it (might be a 'feature' to them and not a bug).
You're not the only one who has noticed it.
post #212 of 1308
Thread Starter 
I haven't noticed it though and 24 Hz mode is still looking as 24 fps should look, when I bump it to weak there is a minimal difference. Have you folks tested 24 Hz material? It should be easily apparent on film content.
post #213 of 1308
Moonchilde, I think your testing is very flawed and makes the data invalid.

You asked Orta why it matters that Aero was enabled, but then go on to state that the Panasonic is your "main monitor". These tests should be run in clone only. If your CRT can't accept 1920x1080 at 60Hz (or your graphic card/Windows setup won't allow it), then you shouldn't be going any further.
You may be able to run the test at 1280x720, but then you may introduce scaling lag which could be a factor.
Having the CRT at 75Hz and the plasma at 60Hz also invalidates your test.

The tests you've chosen also have shortcomings that I think make the data less valueable. The second one is better if it isn't Flash-based as I suspect. But the thing about plasmas is that they build their pictures from the RGB primaries and not all of them do it in the same predictible way. Phosphor trailing is the result of these different timing for the RGB layers. A test that uses a green primary like the Flatpanels counter means that you are capturing the change between the green primary and not all three colours. This is only a sub-frame difference of course, but its another factor that we don't necessarily desire.

IMO, Refresh Rate Multitool is a much better test. It uses columns and rows and produces solid white rectangles that when photographed, show how many full frames behind the plasma is compared to the CRT.
This is with my GT50 -



Its clear to see the CRT is ahead by two full frames.
But there is also something else you will notice from my photo if you save it to your desktop and check its properties. The EXIF data is intact. You can see what camera I used and what exposure settings and crucially, shutter speed used to take the photo. If your shutter speed (in this case 1/60th of a second) isn't a multiple of the refresh rate that you are using on the displays, then the test is invalid.
The EXIF data is missing from yours and so we have no way of verifying what you used.

I hope this has been helpful. I know from experience that this type of testing can be a real pain and its very easy for things to go wrong and give back bad data.
post #214 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Dammit I just lost my post. I'll try to redo it, but shorter because I don't feel like typing it out again.

1. Clone mode.
2. Clone mode still has a primary (plasma) and secondary (CRT) monitor.
3. Vsync was disabled.
4. Resolution settings are 1600x1024, scaling disabled on both monitors with the plasma simply letter boxing it while running in 1080p mode, no scaling no additional lag.
5. nVidia control panel nor Windows will allow independent refresh rates, don't ask me why. I can change the plasma, but can't change the CRT. Ridiculous! Why is this.
6. Multi Refresh Rate tool looks awesome, I will look into it. Was mainly using xNote Stopwatch fixed to 60 Hz via program menu.
7. What's EXIF data, and I don't see it in your image? What am I looking for?
8. How do I properly set up shutter rate and all that, so I can get a more accurate test?

Thanks for the post, I've been waiting a long time now for something objective like this. About time we got some!


Ok this still may be skewed.

Settings were clone mode, refresh reported by the program 60 Hz, 1600x1024 (scaling disabled on both devices via video output in the driver panel) and the only method I currently have on hand at the moment to capture is my camera's 30 fps video mode. Which as it happens, captures 2 rectangles for each frame, which makes sense because each frame at 30 fps is capturing 2x the data as each from at 60 fps, hence the 2 rectangles. Here is the image I got:



If you count the most recent rectangle for both sets it looks like the CRT is at 15 and the ST60 is at 10, which still falls in line with 80 ms. I checked through out the entire video and every frame was the same, at least this method isn't producing variable times like the last. So is this test more accurate? I'm not sure. If I can manage to get the refresh rates identical, then this would be much more accurate I think.

IF I can get my hands on another camera that allows me to set the shutter speed, I will try. Otherwise, I can only capture video at 30 fps and advance frame by frame.
Edited by Moonchilde - 4/18/13 at 2:38am
post #215 of 1308
The plasma has a native res. 1920x1080. Anything other than that has to be processed (scaled) by the display. If you haven't tested the delay that a non-native resolution might have, then you can't determine what impact it has on the result. Its an unknown variable and in this type of test, unknown variables are bad.

No wonder you have no exif data if you are using video. Save my pic, right click it and choose Properties then the Details tab.
post #216 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Yes, the plasma does have a native res. So you can run 1600x1024 within 1080p and it will simply not display the pixels outside of the 1600x1024 box. Kind of like a letterbox movie. No scaling is involved, everything is pixel perfect as 1080p.



Edit: Ok, I see the EXIF data. Thanks for pointing that out, I had no idea that existed. I really appreciate your help in this thread. My other camera only takes batteries so once they're charged I'll try to see if it has those settings. The current one I have on hand that is charged I can't seem to change the shutter speed, so that's why I used video since video will capture 1/30th of a second, which is why we're seeing 2 boxes instead of just 1.
Edited by Moonchilde - 4/18/13 at 3:08am
post #217 of 1308
I'll have to test the 1:1 scaling to be sure but I have a feeling my ati card might do things a little differently. Shouldn't be a problem if its just filling that area.
post #218 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Aha!! I found out how to change the shutter speed. My crappy camera calls it exposure time and only goes to -2.0 which is 1/30th of a second. Here is the result, much cleaner and nicer and has EXIF data. Still 5 frames. Seriously love this new program, so much nicer than stop watch timers.

By the way THANK YOU. This is much easier to test with, no more having to frame by frame with poor video quality.

post #219 of 1308
Your camera might have a preset that is 1/60 but called something like 'Sports' or 'Indoor' etc. Only way to find out is to use them all and check the F-Stop in the exif data (which by the way is missing in that pic you posted).
post #220 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Oh, that's odd, it won't show up under image properties in the browser but if you save it to a disk it will show up under properties when you right click it off a hard drive. F-Stop is f/3.1. Exposure 1/30

Edit: Finally managed to sync both displays to 60 Hz. I was able to verify by checking the refresh info on my CRT's menu screen. Yet another possibility for error knocked out. However, results were exactly the same. Next control to fix will be the speed of the camera, though I have a feeling it wont make much a difference.

More items, to give an idea of what we're looking at when enabling certain options. Of course, I'm only giving a foreword that these are just a rough idea, until I use another camera with a true 1/60th exposure time and a better F-Stop.

Game Mode on, all processing options off: 5 frames / 83.5 ms.


Game Mode off: 6 frames / 100.2 ms


Game Mode on, 1080p Direct on: 6 frames / 100.2 ms


Game Mode off, 1080p Direct on: 6 frames / 100.2 ms


Game Mode off, Motion Smoothing High: 7 frames / 116.9 ms


Looks like Game Mode only kills about a frame or 16.7 ms of input lag. 1080p Direct isn't really doing much, so the earlier claims of it adding 50 ms of input lag might be wrong.

I will update once I check my other camera if it has 1/60 of a second exposure time, which will give us even better results until we get some Leo Bodnar tests back.
Edited by Moonchilde - 4/18/13 at 5:35am
post #221 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Ok, so I knew I saw somewhere in the menu licensing info for the software. It turns out, the software Panny uses is based on BSD, which is an open source Unix alternative. Plus, you can email Panny (cdrequest at unipf dot jp) to get the source code on a disc, with the only cost being the shipment of the disc, OR you can get the source code from http://www.unipf.jp/dl/DTV13U/ though I can't seem to get that site to load anything...

Maybe it's a start. However, compiling and stuff is beyond my current knowledge. Maybe if some fine programmer peruses the board and would like to lend a helping hand smile.gif


I've emailed the address and asked what the charge is for the disc and why I can't access the website. Lets see what happens.


LOL, it gets better. I got a Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender notice after trying that email. Man, it's like every avenue we try, we get completely shut down. This is really disappointing, I'm feeling big time buyer's remorse lol.

Update!
Quote:
Dear Customer

Thank you for contacting us.

We are prepareing the source code you requested,
so please wait for a couple of month.
We will upload the code on http://www.unif.jp/dl/DTV13U/

Regards,
Webmaster of www.unipf.jp

There be hope, mateys!

But by then, I most likely won't have this set anymore. However, if they use the same source code base for all the sets, then if I actually end up upgrading to a VT, it's possible we can hack out all the extras we don't want and get those hexacores pumping out processing even faster. Who knows!
post #222 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Update!
There be hope, mateys!

But by then, I most likely won't have this set anymore. However, if they use the same source code base for all the sets, then if I actually end up upgrading to a VT, it's possible we can hack out all the extras we don't want and get those hexacores pumping out processing even faster. Who knows!

What does this all mean? Does it mean they can fix the input lag problem?
post #223 of 1308
Since you clearing out the kinks in this test, you might want to toy around with the camera resolution. Assuming this is a CCD based camera, the sensor will record data from top to bottom. Depending on how the camera handle different resolutions (post-processed or sensor area), lowering the resolution could improve the recording speed. Just cutting another factor out of the equation.
post #224 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomanBlade86 View Post

What does this all mean? Does it mean they can fix the input lag problem?

It means the source code for the firmware is freely available. Someone with skill could manipulate it to create a custom firmware with input delay in mind....possibly.
post #225 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

It means the source code for the firmware is freely available. Someone with skill could manipulate it to create a custom firmware with input delay in mind....possibly.
What's the likelihood of someone taking the time to do that? (Serious question, just curious)
post #226 of 1308
dupe post removed
Edited by MountainMichael - 6/18/13 at 5:08pm
post #227 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMichael View Post

Not wanting to cause early IR, I did a limited amount of gaming today. About 1/2 hour of Metal Gear Solid 4 on PS3, 55ST60 with game mode on, 1080p off, motion smoother off.

Background: Lifelong gamer like since Pong for TV's first came out, but definitely an amateur gamer, not a pro. I don't do any online gaming.

Lag impressions but definitely not measurements - overview: I won't be returning the Panny due to lag.

If there is a hint more lag than with my 11 year old 36" Toshiba CRT type TV, I wonder if I'm imagining it. In some ways, the much larger screen is fooling me into "feeling" like the motion is quicker in some ways. I can't hook the Toshiba up anymore for direct comparison - but I do think I notice the slightest bit of added delay when firing the weapons.

So my main question is: Is it possible my old CRT TV had some lag so I don't notice much difference now? Or were all CRT TV's essentially lag free?

Still to test: I have not received the USB cables to try the PS3 controls in wired mode for possible lag reduction. As stated previously, since day 1 the PS3's control lag has been a pest for me.

Some other people have said that it will be subjective whether or not the added lag is enough of a problem to return the TV. While I'm not an advanced gamer to really have an valid opinion, from my limited perspective and gaming less than 10% of my TV time, it is not going to be a problem for me. In fact, my early stated "plan B" (fast pc versus console to get rid of some of the control lag) is now on indefinite hold.

I don't want to influence anyone into a possibly bad decision, so I'll echo what others say: If possible, taking a console to a showroom and testing familiar games on the TV is a good one. I suspect most gamers from amateur to expert will quickly have their answers. I've no doubt many will feel it is too much lag.

As for me and my aged and limited skills, I doubt I'd have noticed the difference had I not found the ST60 threads in this forum. YMWV

Unless your CRT had some sort of video processing (it doesn't), you should see no input delay. Thank you for your contribution. While I'm not blaming any individuals because their needs are at a higher standard, the average and even above-average gamer needs to realize this set works great 95% of the time.
post #228 of 1308
Stump909, YW.
Edited by MountainMichael - 6/18/13 at 5:05pm
post #229 of 1308
removed text; not thread related
Edited by MountainMichael - 6/18/13 at 5:04pm
post #230 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMichael View Post

Not directly related to this thread, but one possible help for my PS3's big lag was: Some say wiring the controller with a USB cable drastically reduces the control lag.

Fed-Ex just brought the cables I'd ordered about 10 minutes ago.

I have no numbers to prove this, but it seems absolutely no quicker to me whether wired or not.

'Salright, I guess. I'll just have to compensate for the laggy PS3 pretty much like I always did.

fwiw

Unlike the 360 controllers, I'm fairly sure USB is only used for power on the PS3. For instance, on the 360, the play and charge kit USB wire doesn't transmit data, only power.
post #231 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Not true on 2 counts. CRT's can and do have processing. Most Sony TV's have numerous processing elements such as velocity modulation, dynamic convergence, and noise removal options. Stuff you may not see in the regular menus. An 11 year old Toshiba may not though, but you never know until you open the set and check out the boards. Many CRT are pretty basic, they have a gun, and a board with inputs to translate the video to the gun and a range of scan rates they can display.

The second count is the USB port on a PS3 controller can send data over the cable, it isn't just to power the unit on. For example, if you were to connect the controller to PC, it will pull data from the identification chips via USB and show it in the devices menu. You can also use the controller on PC over wired USB.

The reason Sir Michael doesn't feel any difference is because there is no difference. Sony's wireless tech for those controllers is simply amazing, there is no input lag over wireless.

What his problem is most likely caused by, is the "loose" analog sticks the DualShock 3 controllers have and the fact that analog sticks can only move so fast. They do feel "laggy" especially if you're used to mouse & keyboard shooters. The controllers are also entirely analog, this includes the D-Pad and the face buttons, so the controller is actually sending extra data for each button press when the games aren't even asking for it, which does somewhat hinder inputs a little.

Many games on PS3 are also just simply laggy games. 133 ms of response is the fastest a 30 fps shooter will give you. Once you start dropping frames, that response time goes up. Once you start adding post processing effects, the response goes up. Even a game like Uncharted 2 has about 150 to 160 ms of input lag vs the natural input lag of 133 ms of 30 fps, and that's a first party title. Multiplatform games sometimes have additional delay over Xbox and PC counterparts, such as Street Fighter 4, which the PS3 version has an additional 1 to 2 frames of lag. Throw on top of that the "feel" of analog control and yeah, sometimes it just doesn't feel so great.

Anyway, enough off topic here, but I hope that answers your questions. I'm glad Sir Michael is happy with his purchase, if you aren't a regular gamer and don't have years of practice at certain games then chances are you won't really notice especially if you've spent a decent amount of time on another display with some lag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

Since you clearing out the kinks in this test, you might want to toy around with the camera resolution. Assuming this is a CCD based camera, the sensor will record data from top to bottom. Depending on how the camera handle different resolutions (post-processed or sensor area), lowering the resolution could improve the recording speed. Just cutting another factor out of the equation.

It is CCD, however I use a wide view and try to keep the displays as close as possible on a horizontal and vertical scale. I will also check out lowering the resolution to see if there is any variation in the test data and on top of that, my other camera will hopefully have a faster shutter and exposure speed. Trying to limit the error margin as much as possible here.
post #232 of 1308
Thread Starter 
...

What if we were to crack open the TV and replace the processing board with a board from a GT60?

I wonder what would happen? I'm curious to take a look inside the back cover...
post #233 of 1308
Not sure, but I like they way you think! Post pics! tongue.gif
post #234 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Even if the board was $200, that's still $700 less than a VT60 just to have a less laggy display. I wonder if I can open the panel without breaking any hidden stickers or anything voiding my warranty and disabling me from taking the set back.
post #235 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

without breaking any hidden stickers or anything voiding my warranty and disabling me from taking the set back.
Hehe, good luck! cool.gif
post #236 of 1308
Thread Starter 
I know frown.gif
post #237 of 1308
Thread Starter 


A-Board. No warranty stickers. These are really interesting especially in comparison to a CRT. Very different, but very cool. Tons of ribbon cables in this thing. Anyway, I wish I had enough time to pick up a cheap A Board off ebay or something to test out how swappable it may be. Nothing available and the ones that are aren't even close in layout. If you could just get a board and essentially upgrade your panel, I mean geez. That would be like the Kuro mod all over again.

The brown board is the power board, has the Volt Sustain on it and a pot below, which is where I may do a future multimeter check and adjustment to get rid of the pink blob. If I feel this TV still has potential, which I really feel doesn't.


LOL, the memory chips on the A Board are Samsung.
Edited by Moonchilde - 4/18/13 at 10:20pm
post #238 of 1308
Moonchilde,

input appreciated.
Edited by MountainMichael - 6/18/13 at 1:49pm
post #239 of 1308
Is there a good place to find input lag measurements for other sets? I'm planning on getting an ST60 but I just want to know how it compares to my current set in terms of input lag. I'm not too sensitive to it but I do a lot of gaming and want to make sure it's at least comparable. My current set is a 32 inch Samsung D550 LCD.
post #240 of 1308
My 55ST60 has developed an intermittent fault so I am returning it to Amazon. I've ordered the 65PS64 from Sam's Club.
Edited by MountainMichael - 6/18/13 at 5:12pm
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