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Official ST60 input lag thread - Page 12

post #331 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post

Yes but if the input lags, then he has to make the motion faster right? You have to get to the end point faster (such as aiming at the guy) if the input lags more behind.

I had the same thought about deleting the apps when I read that BTW. Fingers totally crossed! However I'm afraid it'll be one of those things like a certain % of the processing power is pre dedicated to apps, and another (obviously small) slice for gaming, etc.

I don't know if I'm even in the ballpark on this one, but is there any way to do something like "overclock" the chip inside?

I suppose you're partially right, but the actual speed of a game is not related to input lag. Cranking the sensitivity to 10 when you play at a moderate 4 is going hurt your game.

My fingers are crossed for the APP delete fix too...I am eagerly awaiting someone to test this out. I will upgrade to this set if I can get the input lag to the ballpark figure that my GT50 is at (roughly 60-65 ms as I don't play on Game mode).
post #332 of 1308
I asked in the main ST60 thread about uninstalling apps. Timokreon said "On the top right of the "apps" screen there is a "settings" button. In there you can 1) Move the apps; 2) Lock the apps; 3) uninstall the apps."

Has anyone tried to remove all the apps just to see if it removes lag? I'm sure you must be able to restore the apps, so it's worth a shot.
post #333 of 1308
Thread Starter 
You can only remove certain apps. Other apps, like the always cached Paint program, can't be removed.
post #334 of 1308
Can you retest with as many removed as possible? I'm not expecting miracles here, but from what I understand of this, even 10ms or so off the time may drop it down to 4 frames of lag, which is at the high end of being not too good but still acceptable. That would push it noticeably closer to imperceptible for most except for the really hardcore.
post #335 of 1308
Thread Starter 
I can tell right away nothing changed just by how the mouse movement feels since I use the panel as a monitor. You also can't uninstall anything of significance, only stuff like YouTube which isn't pre-loaded anyway. But I can do a quick check, though I doubt we'll even see a frame of better lag.

By the way, I tried that fellow's Panasonic reset trick for the ST50. Nothing, everything is still the same. Man, it's ridiculous how slow the Apps and Home menus are.

Any modification to the panel is going to require a custom firmware to 1, get rid of all the background crap and 2, make the image processing's affinity as high as possible for the Mediatek processor.
post #336 of 1308
Sorry to make all the requests. I'm just kind of getting desperate for this issue to have a solution in some way. I looked forward to this TV for so long I'd hate to be stopped because of something like this...especially with almost no other plasmas they've made in the last several years having this issue. It's just so much worse than before...then take a game with lots of "lag" built in already (Mirror's Edge I've read has 133ms!) and you've got very noticeable lag to just about anyone.

I really do appreciate all this btw. You've been a big help in my decision on whether or not I will buy this set.
post #337 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Ok, just checked again. All the apps I could uninstall have been uinstalled. Still 5 frames.

Sorry man. We just don't have enough control over the software via menu. If there was some way to open the SDDL.SEC file, we could then take a look at it.

I mean really, all the firmware is, is a FreeBSD distro with a UI thrown on it and a bunch of Android apps. That's all it is. I simply can't twiddle my thumbs though and wait for Panny to upload their software for us to take a look at and we may not even get everything to look at or a way to flash it to the set.
post #338 of 1308
Thanks man. That does it for everything I can think of.
post #339 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Yep, me too. And that's why I need to take it back. I worry that even if we did get a hold of the firmware and hacked everything out the processor in it still wouldn't cut it. On the other hand, if I upgrade to a VT60 and the firmware is uploaded, we can still hack all that stuff out and possibly get the set even lower than 2 frames of lag with 90% of the processor dedicated to the picture, because we already know those sets have a fast processor in it to handle the picture processing and all the rest on top of it.
post #340 of 1308
I've been following the thread for a while and am really disappointed about the whole input lag issue. Just so I understand correctly the 5 frames of lag is an issue even comparing say an LCD computer monitor to the ST60? I was under the impression that comparing CRTs to flat screens was where you would see the input lag issue. I currently have a Samsung LNS4096D but can't find anything online about what my current input lag is.

Also if the ST60 really has input lag issues the only other alternative is the S60 at this point? Would the ST50 be better than the S60? Seems like the S60 is lacking from the ST60 in a few areas but may not be a night and day difference to the ST60.
post #341 of 1308
Thread Starter 
I can't really comment on any of your questions but my tests were against CRT and not LCD. I have no idea what your current input lag is. If you don't care about 3D, I'd say it would be better to get a S60 or a S64, although I can't comment how a S60 stacks against a ST50. One thing I can say though, is that the 2013 models will have Game Mode available along with the Pro controls, that the 2012's won't do. For example, a 2012 has Game Mode as an entirely different picture mode so to calibrate you need to hit service menu. In the 2012 models, you get access to calibration controls and Game Mode all at once. It's just sad that the ST60 is a slow performer, otherwise I'd heartily recommend it as a gamer's wet dream.

On the other hand, the ST50 will offer relatively low input lag and give you 3D. If you can still find a set, it might be worth looking into, but I must say that the 2013 models are bringing some nice improvements.

How much of a gamer are you?
post #342 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alkaar View Post

I've been following the thread for a while and am really disappointed about the whole input lag issue. Just so I understand correctly the 5 frames of lag is an issue even comparing say an LCD computer monitor to the ST60? I was under the impression that comparing CRTs to flat screens was where you would see the input lag issue. I currently have a Samsung LNS4096D but can't find anything online about what my current input lag is.

Also if the ST60 really has input lag issues the only other alternative is the S60 at this point? Would the ST50 be better than the S60? Seems like the S60 is lacking from the ST60 in a few areas but may not be a night and day difference to the ST60.

I found little info on that set too, except most who played on it felt it had very little input lag. It really depends on what you play and how much of a gamer you are. Hardcore fighting games & FPS? This set is pretty much out of the running. Madden with your friends? Don't worry about it too much. Moonchilde is a pretty hardcore gamer so it affects him a great deal. Myself, I'm well above casual, though not as hardcore as a tournament player, but I'm buying this set for the next several years, and I game heavily. I'm not going to buy something that utterly blows for gaming that I'll likely be playing PS4 games on in the future for several years!

(On an off note, he's talking about 1 frame reversal windows...I just read that in Street Fighter 4 there are combos with a button press window of 1/60th of a second?! No wonder I never earned those combo trophies!)

S60, S64 (S60 with an A/R filter, only available at Costcos & Sam's Club), and VT60 are the only other options for this year. Too bad the only year they drop the GT line is the one year I'd actually buy it over the ST series. ST50's are great sets still, but currently sit overpriced. Way less PQ for more money. Maybe a VT50 would do if you can get a deal. I want 60 inch or I'd have jumped on a VT50 Best Buy just offered me.
post #343 of 1308
Thread Starter 
SF2 is actually the SF series with 1 frame reversal windows. SF2 is also my main game, and I'll be at EVO this year playing it.

SF4 actually has a 5 frame reversal window. So, the thing that sucks about it, is if the ST60 has 5 frames of lag that means you can't tell when you should be doing your reversal even in a relaxed game like SF4. SF2 is pretty much out of the question. And then there are the 1 frame combo links, all the SF games have these and yes this would be a pretty severe issue to be 5 frames behind visually although you can also go for audio cues. The bad thing about playing on a laggy display is that you have to get used to making your inputs 5 frames earlier than what you see, and should you ever compete on a lagless display then all your timing will be late and you will lose. I recently just had this chat with a fellow in a group we belong too and he lost at a local tourney because his setup was laggy and the tournament setup wasn't. Not even taking into account that some attacks may end up having less than 5 frames of start up before they're active, which means you could be hit without seeing it. No attack is going to be 2 frames, so that's why playing on a display with 2 frames of lag isn't really an issue because you actually can adjust your gameplay around that. But 5 frames is too much, it gets to the point where you're playing off prediction and not reaction and that's never a good thing since there are so many options to get beat by that you'll hardly ever get it right.

I initially thought the ST60 couldn't possibly be so laggy and was defensive about it at first, but then I really started to test it out and try out games I knew by heart and felt it. It's a beautiful display, but it's too slow.
post #344 of 1308
So until we get the LB test back which everyone doesn't seem optimistic about, what is the best alternative between the S60, S64 and the VT60? It sounds like people are assuming the VT60 has less lag just because of the processor but not because anyone actually tested it out. For the S60 vs the S64 what is the difference between the two and which one is better? From what I've read on here the advantages of the ST60 over the S60/S64 are...

Color gamut
Black Levels
AR Filter

Seems like for me the only alternative is to bring an Xbox into the store and see if it's an issue for myself.
post #345 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alkaar View Post

So until we get the LB test back which everyone doesn't seem optimistic about, what is the best alternative between the S60, S64 and the VT60? It sounds like people are assuming the VT60 has less lag just because of the processor but not because anyone actually tested it out. For the S60 vs the S64 what is the difference between the two and which one is better? From what I've read on here the advantages of the ST60 over the S60/S64 are...

Color gamut
Black Levels
AR Filter

Seems like for me the only alternative is to bring an Xbox into the store and see if it's an issue for myself.

I think testing it yourself would be best. I have had this TV for about 3 weeks now and I don't notice any input lag.
post #346 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alkaar View Post

Seems like for me the only alternative is to bring an Xbox into the store and see if it's an issue for myself.

Please provide us with pictures and video if you do.
post #347 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermandlb View Post

I think testing it yourself would be best. I have had this TV for about 3 weeks now and I don't notice any input lag.

I would tend to agree with you on the issue of input lag, probably something you're not going to notice even if it is there. A tv should be bought with picture quality as a first priority.
post #348 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alkaar View Post

VT60

VT60 was tested at 2 frames with a Leo Bodnar and 1 frame against a CRT.
post #349 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

VT60 was tested at 2 frames with a Leo Bodnar and 1 frame against a CRT.

& s60 & s64 were the same, equal to the vt?
post #350 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Not tested thoroughly, but we can say it's most likely on par.
post #351 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasquatch321 View Post

Please provide us with pictures and video if you do.

Might be hard to show pictures and video in a Best Buy to accurately depict the input lag. I think Moonchilde is probably in the best position to do that but at this point I think he's pretty much done testing the ST60.

I don't want to compromise with the S60/S64 but I don't want to pay the premium for the VT60 either.
post #352 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alkaar View Post

I don't want to compromise with the S60/S64 but I don't want to pay the premium for the VT60 either.

Which brings us full circle. How could Panny f' this up so bad?
post #353 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alkaar View Post

So until we get the LB test back which everyone doesn't seem optimistic about, what is the best alternative between the S60, S64 and the VT60? It sounds like people are assuming the VT60 has less lag just because of the processor but not because anyone actually tested it out. For the S60 vs the S64 what is the difference between the two and which one is better? From what I've read on here the advantages of the ST60 over the S60/S64 are...

Color gamut
Black Levels
AR Filter

Seems like for me the only alternative is to bring an Xbox into the store and see if it's an issue for myself.

The S64 is an S60 but with an AR filter. S64 is made for Costco/Sam's Club.

If I was considering an S60, I'd definitely get an S64 instead.

VT has to be faster with that hexa processor, but you're right, we'll see, although someone just posted that its been tested and is much better than the ST for lag.
post #354 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alkaar View Post

Might be hard to show pictures and video in a Best Buy to accurately depict the input lag. I think Moonchilde is probably in the best position to do that but at this point I think he's pretty much done testing the ST60.

I don't want to compromise with the S60/S64 but I don't want to pay the premium for the VT60 either.

It really sucks we are not getting a GT this year I wonder if that would have been better. Also its weird that not connecting to wifi still gives us the lag since nothing is connected, so nothing should be working to use up that memory that is causing the lag.
post #355 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by davelanger View Post

It really sucks we are not getting a GT this year I wonder if that would have been better. Also its weird that not connecting to wifi still gives us the lag since nothing is connected, so nothing should be working to use up that memory that is causing the lag.

The GT in EU is much better with the Hexa processor in it. And I'm thinking that it's just that certain amounts of power of the processor are pre set aside for different things, with gaming getting the very short end of the stick.
post #356 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post

The GT in EU is much better with the Hexa processor in it. And I'm thinking that it's just that certain amounts of power of the processor are pre set aside for different things, with gaming getting the very short end of the stick.

Processors don't usually work like that. You don't just set X percent to something. You set priorities, high, medium, low, etc. It's possible that there's just more running on what they're using than should be running on it and that whatever process governs how input lags works isn't set to as high of priority as it should be. Hopefully some kind of firmware update or hack can somehow manage that better (or completely gut out the smart TV app junk). Or it could just be some odd bug that's hopefully fixable.
post #357 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Damn I was supposed to take the set back today but I still have NO IDEA what alternative I have. So I emailed Panny UK and Panny North America to see if getting a GT60 A board is possible. I really think stuff like gradation and all that is controlled by the A board, and NOT the panel. Evidence that leads me to believe this is the fact that different picture modes have different gradations, which means it's not limited to the panel, but the processing. If that A board can be had for a modest price then it seems like it would be a worthy upgrade for gamers to have a near reference level panel with negligible input lag.

I just balk at having to upgrade to the VT series, it's so costly!
post #358 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Damn I was supposed to take the set back today but I still have NO IDEA what alternative I have. So I emailed Panny UK and Panny North America to see if getting a GT60 A board is possible. I really think stuff like gradation and all that is controlled by the A board, and NOT the panel. Evidence that leads me to believe this is the fact that different picture modes have different gradations, which means it's not limited to the panel, but the processing. If that A board can be had for a modest price then it seems like it would be a worthy upgrade for gamers to have a near reference level panel with negligible input lag.

I just balk at having to upgrade to the VT series, it's so costly!

If I could replace the board without too much hassle and for a decent price I'd do it in a heartbeat just to eliminate the input lag. Hopefully you hear back something positive on this.
post #359 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Damn I was supposed to take the set back today but I still have NO IDEA what alternative I have. So I emailed Panny UK and Panny North America to see if getting a GT60 A board is possible. I really think stuff like gradation and all that is controlled by the A board, and NOT the panel. Evidence that leads me to believe this is the fact that different picture modes have different gradations, which means it's not limited to the panel, but the processing. If that A board can be had for a modest price then it seems like it would be a worthy upgrade for gamers to have a near reference level panel with negligible input lag.

I just balk at having to upgrade to the VT series, it's so costly!

This seems a bit of a stretch. Switching a processor is definitely possible but not "easy". I really doubt they'd send you a board and let you swap it out yourself but certainly doesn't hurt to try.
post #360 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfoh View Post

Processors don't usually work like that. You don't just set X percent to something. You set priorities, high, medium, low, etc. It's possible that there's just more running on what they're using than should be running on it and that whatever process governs how input lags works isn't set to as high of priority as it should be. Hopefully some kind of firmware update or hack can somehow manage that better (or completely gut out the smart TV app junk). Or it could just be some odd bug that's hopefully fixable.

Unfortunately, I cannot see Panasonic releasing a firmware update "fix" for the input lag issue on the st60. This is typical with manufacturers......it is probably something they would claim to be "out of their control to fix" because of the small % of people complaining about that issue on this particular set. Call Panasonic tech support and bring up the term input lag and I bet you a thousand dollars they have NO idea what that even is. Input lag isn't even a listed specification for any television without outside testing from consumers which seems a little ridiculous since a large % of people that own TVs spend a fair amount of time gaming (maybe not compared to those that are solely interesting in great value and picture quality).

-Jordan
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