or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Plasma Flat Panel Displays › Official ST60 input lag thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Official ST60 input lag thread - Page 13

post #361 of 1308
I know this issue is pretty much dead...but I read this over at another forum just now...saying that the input lag on the ST60 (EU version) is a bit less in 3D? "In 3D with the 2D->3D conversion mode on and Game Mode enabled, the lag is less." Strange...
post #362 of 1308
Thread Starter 
I suppose it can't hurt to test it quickly, but if that was the case it would be a real WTF moment for me.

BTW:

http://www.pstc.panasonic.com/Epartr/PartslistChoice.asp?

Interestingly, none of the board parts in my ST60 match any of the parts listed under the TCP50ST60. Odd.

http://www.pstc.panasonic.com/Epartr/PartsListChoice.asp?validate=1

My A board ordering # is TNPH1045. Hmm, on further inspection, it seems I need to look for the white sticker Panny puts on the boards as their ordering parts #, and not what's printed on the PCB. Which means I need to pull the board out of the TV and check the underside for the part number. Then I can get a good idea of what it will cost. I'm guessing it's the more expensive PC board listed, but there are 2 of them over $100.

Anyway, no GT60 listed on that site. I'm still waiting to hear back from the UK division about ordering parts. North America division answered tonight, so that was really quick.

http://www.pstc.panasonic.com/Epartr/PartsListChoice.asp?validate=1

Parts list for the VT60. WIthout a service manual I can't know which board is the A board. It seems pretty cheap to simply get a board to swap in, I wonder if the VT60 would be compatible with the ST60 panel. None of the PC boards are over $100, which means either they can't sell the Mediatek boards for a certain price or their in house manufactured boards are simply able to be sold for cheaper. Or, they're simply not listed.

Anyway, anyone have any service manuals? Or anyone willing to open theirs to check the part number on the A board?

I may actually be willing to try this out, but I'll need some images of the A boads from the GT or VT series so I can see the connector layout vs the ST's A board and I'd need to see these soon, like no later than Monday because Tuesday is my 30th day.
Edited by Moonchilde - 4/28/13 at 3:06am
post #363 of 1308
Have to respect your dedication & confidence to even take something like this on, building a frankenplasma, but wouldn't it be better, wasn't it you who mentioned you were getting into developing games etc. in another thread? Some kind of dedicated pro monitor wouldn't be more ideal for that purpose anyway?

Then just keep your st for everything else non game related, since that's its only fault? Meanwhile keeping it & its warranty in tact. JUst more money and more space vs. what you're trying to do here though.
post #364 of 1308
I just read this entire thread. It had me on the fence on picking up the set due to the input lag. Unfortunately, my current set (which I play 360 on - it's mostly casual now as I don't have as much time as I used to - but I still enjoy being on the top of the leaderboard in Halo biggrin.gif) is a 2007 Samsung (Samsung LN-T4061F) so it was tough to find some Input Lag related specs. I think I dug something up on an old avsforum post and from what I can tell, my current set suffers from about 6ms of input lag as well (hooray?).

So, from an online-shooter perspective, I have not noticed anything that diminished my gameplay over the last 6 years of owning this set. I would agree with most of the previous posters that internet latency is going to have a greater effect on gameplay than the input lag. From a 2D perspective, like Moonchilde has been mentioning, I could definitely see it creating an issue. For me, if I'm playing a 2d or a scroller, it's very casual and not a big deal. I never play them online and would only play them against a buddy - in which case we'd both be suffering the same input lag effect regardless.

I think I am going to plan on pulling the trigger on the ST60 - just because the price/value makes too much sense for me (and I'm upgrading from a 40" to a 60" set for a pretty reasonable dollar amount). If I happen to notice any noticeable differences in playing Halo on XBL, I'll definitely come back and provide feedback.
post #365 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon! View Post

Have to respect your dedication & confidence to even take something like this on, building a frankenplasma, but wouldn't it be better, wasn't it you who mentioned you were getting into developing games etc. in another thread? Some kind of dedicated pro monitor wouldn't be more ideal for that purpose anyway?

Then just keep your st for everything else non game related, since that's its only fault? Meanwhile keeping it & its warranty in tact. JUst more money and more space vs. what you're trying to do here though.

Well, the color accuracy on some monitors is questionable for one, and there is no guarantee they won't have input lag either. And they're smaller, and just as costly. The plasma would be perfect for the most part. On top of that, I'd have to purchase a pro monitor and those go for $700 or more for something larger than 20 some inches and again, no guarantee of low lag and it would be a pricey addition. If I don't have to spend that much extra, then I won't.

On the other hand, I'm going to cross reference stuff like the scan drives for the ST60 vs the VT60, if they're the same pcb parts then I would assume the only difference is the A board, the addtional camera, included pen, and the panel design such as ultra filter that would separate the two sets. If they're different scan drive parts, then it could be possible that they're responsible for the higher FFD and not simply the A board that drives that. Either way, I may even be able to buy those too and essentially have a VT60 for less than $300 extra. It all depends, I have some research to do.

Looks like Sears isn't going to carry the VT60 so I'm out of luck on that front and I don't know if I can get a full refund for the ST60, although I do have the pink blob (that is correctable, I haven't fixed it yet) I could use as an edge to say it's defective and just take my money and order a VT60 from Cleveland or so.
post #366 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSam7 View Post

I think I am going to plan on pulling the trigger on the ST60 - just because the price/value makes too much sense for me (and I'm upgrading from a 40" to a 60" set for a pretty reasonable dollar amount). If I happen to notice any noticeable differences in playing Halo on XBL, I'll definitely come back and provide feedback.

I can guarantee that if you say you were at the top of the leader-boards in HALO that you will definitely be at the bottom if you pick up the st60 to game on! I'm just saying.....I owned an st60 for 3-4 weeks and was so disappointed that I didn't even want to play games AT ALL. Now I own an s60 after bringing my xbox into the store to test the input lag and can say without hesitation that it doesn't suffer from noticeable input lag at all. The st60 did had amazing picture quality though.
post #367 of 1308
I got my p55st60 all I can say is wow....can't wait to have this baby calibrated....the picture looked good .....then I calibrated it a bit with the Disney WOW disc and it got even better....like looking in a window......ill have it fully done after I break it in.....I hooked up my xmbox 360..... Did not notice
any lag playing console games....I don't play online and I'm guessing that's where you might notice it more....this set is amazing....and I'll get the free electronic pen.....can't lose on this one.
post #368 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Well, the color accuracy on some monitors is questionable for one, and there is no guarantee they won't have input lag either. And they're smaller, and just as costly. The plasma would be perfect for the most part. On top of that, I'd have to purchase a pro monitor and those go for $700 or more for something larger than 20 some inches and again, no guarantee of low lag and it would be a pricey addition. If I don't have to spend that much extra, then I won't.

On the other hand, I'm going to cross reference stuff like the scan drives for the ST60 vs the VT60, if they're the same pcb parts then I would assume the only difference is the A board, the addtional camera, included pen, and the panel design such as ultra filter that would separate the two sets. If they're different scan drive parts, then it could be possible that they're responsible for the higher FFD and not simply the A board that drives that. Either way, I may even be able to buy those too and essentially have a VT60 for less than $300 extra. It all depends, I have some research to do.

Looks like Sears isn't going to carry the VT60 so I'm out of luck on that front and I don't know if I can get a full refund for the ST60, although I do have the pink blob (that is correctable, I haven't fixed it yet) I could use as an edge to say it's defective and just take my money and order a VT60 from Cleveland or so.

Oh crap I just realized what you're.. No don't do it. You can't simply buy a vt & st, swap the boards, then return the vt.

frown.gif
post #369 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon! View Post

Oh crap I just realized what you're.. No don't do it. You can't simply buy a vt & st, swap the boards, then return the vt.

frown.gif

Huh? No, if Sears had a VT I may have considered upgrading to it using my ST60 as an exchange.

The link I supplied above you can order any part from the VT60 that you want. What I'm going to do is cross check the scan boards and see if they're the same as the ST60, and if they are, then that most likely means the FFD, 3D, gradients, and all that are completely controlled by the A board. If the scan drives are different parts, the it's possible those are responsible for the FFD, and all the rest is the A board. Either way, I might be able to simply buy all the PCB parts and swap them out. MAYBE. Still need to do research but the parts site is down.

Also, I'm not a dishonest person, lol. I've been burned too often in the past by dishonest people and I would never stoop to become one.
post #370 of 1308
Was reading HDTV.test's tweets and saw this.

https://twitter.com/dkatzmaier/status/327839422387208192
post #371 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Looks about on par with what I was getting, just about 5 frames.
post #372 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

Was reading HDTV.test's tweets and saw this.

https://twitter.com/dkatzmaier/status/327839422387208192
Well, it's not as bad as the 80-100ms that some were seeing, but now we finally have a concrete number to go by. Note: S60 clocked in at only 34ms, while the VT60 is still trailing at 48ms. biggrin.gif Looks like for this year, the S60 is the Panny plasma for twitch-gamers.
post #373 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jlasmax View Post

I can guarantee that if you say you were at the top of the leader-boards in HALO that you will definitely be at the bottom if you pick up the st60 to game on! I'm just saying.....I owned an st60 for 3-4 weeks and was so disappointed that I didn't even want to play games AT ALL. Now I own an s60 after bringing my xbox into the store to test the input lag and can say without hesitation that it doesn't suffer from noticeable input lag at all. The st60 did had amazing picture quality though.

This is so stupid it hurts. Guess what? I just got finished playing Halo...I'm still good. You're out of your mind if you think a shooter that requires 3+ shots to kill an enemy is unplayable in a competitive sense.
post #374 of 1308
He's literally stumped by these complaints from serious gamers, as it is not a problem for him... AT ALL!!

(& by literally I mean figuratively)
post #375 of 1308
Thread Starter 
LOL even with all the tests and everything he still refuses to see it. Oh well.
post #376 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

Well, it's not as bad as the 80-100ms that some were seeing, but now we finally have a concrete number to go by. Note: S60 clocked in at only 34ms, while the VT60 is still trailing at 48ms. biggrin.gifLooks like for this year, the S60 is the Panny plasma for twitch-gamers.

YUP. And Stump909.......I was saying that if you plan on continuing to play Halo WELL then the st60 is NOT the TV for you unless gaming on a 70-100 ms input lag television is your thing. You completely misinterpreted what I said. Good luck in the leaderboards though buddy rofl......
post #377 of 1308
Would a firmware update be able to correct input lag?
post #378 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by supremekizzle View Post

Would a firmware update be able to correct input lag?
It is possible, but extremely doubtful given Panasonic's responses to multiple members of this forum. Do NOT buy an ST60 thinking that the input lag will eventually be patched. That's the last thing on Panasonic's minds.
post #379 of 1308
We knew it was approx 75ms already. At this point we don't even need to wait for displaylag.com's test.

Sad thing is a firmware update that just shaved 10-15ms off would put it at least in the 4 frame category, which would help a lot more than it sounds like on paper. But we've already need told it's not "important". Nevermind the pages of input lag discussion on this forum and several others...
post #380 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Panasonic has been pretty clear they're happy with the ST60 as is. Most likely, any firmware updates will be Smart feature app upgrades, like a better browser or so. I highly doubt the various bugs will be fixed, such as HDMI Content = Auto not functioning properly, 3D overscan, the ridiculous edge halos from scaling, 1080p Direct getting edge halos, and so forth. Don't count on ANY of those being fixed.

However, some good news. Some of the PCB's are shared across the various models of 2013 Panny. Tomorrow I'm going to disassemble the PCB's off the panel so I can match which parts are which on the parts ordering website. I think my original hunch is correct, the 3D panels aren't really all that different other than the bezel and the filter (pro, ultra) applied to the glass. The A board will be where most of the quality comes from. Wonder why the 3D on a ST60 isn't so good compared to say, the VT60? Because the chip that handles the 3D, the Mediatek chip, is a totally different design by a 3rd party, not Panny. It's also a lot slower, so that's probably why the input lag is so high and the cross talk on 3D is being marked during reviews. I'm guessing this has nothing to do with the panel itself.

Anyway, my main concern is the Focus Field Drive. I'm not sure if the A board controls the output or the scan drive. There are 2 possibilities on why the ST60 might have different scan drive boards than the VT60 - size, and Focus Field Drive. The minimum for the VT60 is 55, which means in order to frame the panel correctly I'm guessing the boards have to be larger. If size is the only reason why the parts would be different, then it's possible even the Focus Field Drive is controlled by the A board , in which case a swap should be super easy.

I'll update more tomorrow. It's literally my last day I can tinker on the set, before I make a final decision that it goes back. Hopefully Panny UK is as responsive in getting me a parts site I can start to cross check. If the 50GT60B (3000 FFD) has identical scan drives as the 50ST60 (2500 FFD,) and the 55VT65 (3000 FFD) has identical scan drives to the 55GT60B (3000 FFD,) then I can deduce the scan drives are not responsible for FFD and it all boils down to the A board. In which case, I'll be buying one for sure. Anyone up for some $1050 - $1150 50 inch VT60's? eek.gif
post #381 of 1308
Moonchilde, it's so crazy it just might work. biggrin.gif

No, but in all seriousness, I hope you can get it figured out pronto.
post #382 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Panasonic has been pretty clear they're happy with the ST60 as is. Most likely, any firmware updates will be Smart feature app upgrades, like a better browser or so. I highly doubt the various bugs will be fixed, such as HDMI Content = Auto not functioning properly, 3D overscan, the ridiculous edge halos from scaling, 1080p Direct getting edge halos, and so forth. Don't count on ANY of those being fixed.

However, some good news. Some of the PCB's are shared across the various models of 2013 Panny. Tomorrow I'm going to disassemble the PCB's off the panel so I can match which parts are which on the parts ordering website. I think my original hunch is correct, the 3D panels aren't really all that different other than the bezel and the filter (pro, ultra) applied to the glass. The A board will be where most of the quality comes from. Wonder why the 3D on a ST60 isn't so good compared to say, the VT60? Because the chip that handles the 3D, the Mediatek chip, is a totally different design by a 3rd party, not Panny. It's also a lot slower, so that's probably why the input lag is so high and the cross talk on 3D is being marked during reviews. I'm guessing this has nothing to do with the panel itself.

Anyway, my main concern is the Focus Field Drive. I'm not sure if the A board controls the output or the scan drive. There are 2 possibilities on why the ST60 might have different scan drive boards than the VT60 - size, and Focus Field Drive. The minimum for the VT60 is 55, which means in order to frame the panel correctly I'm guessing the boards have to be larger. If size is the only reason why the parts would be different, then it's possible even the Focus Field Drive is controlled by the A board , in which case a swap should be super easy.

I'll update more tomorrow. It's literally my last day I can tinker on the set, before I make a final decision that it goes back. Hopefully Panny UK is as responsive in getting me a parts site I can start to cross check. If the 50GT60B (3000 FFD) has identical scan drives as the 50ST60 (2500 FFD,) and the 55VT65 (3000 FFD) has identical scan drives to the 55GT60B (3000 FFD,) then I can deduce the scan drives are not responsible for FFD and it all boils down to the A board. In which case, I'll be buying one for sure. Anyone up for some $1050 - $1150 50 inch VT60's? eek.gif

If this does indeed work, you don't live in Southern CA do you? =)

I kid. But would you mind photo-documenting the process should you go through with it? The ST60 is the right price for me...I'm an avid gamer, so the input lag is a no go. The VT series as-is is way too expensive just so I can have half the input lag as the ST series, which is the only difference I truly care about. Let us know!
post #383 of 1308
How does the ST60 bode with single player games like Skyrim, Red Dead Redemption, Mass Effect, Borderlands 2? What about online sports like FIFA and NBA 2K? I currently play single player on either a 2006 42" or 2008 50" plasma and online FPS on an ASUS VH236H lcd monitor.
post #384 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Panasonic has been pretty clear they're happy with the ST60 as is. Most likely, any firmware updates will be Smart feature app upgrades, like a better browser or so. I highly doubt the various bugs will be fixed, such as HDMI Content = Auto not functioning properly, 3D overscan, the ridiculous edge halos from scaling, 1080p Direct getting edge halos, and so forth. Don't count on ANY of those being fixed.
Could you please explain what those various bugs, such as HDMI=Auto Etc., actually are? I guess gaming lag wouldn't be all that big of a deal to me, but the 3d performance does worry me. In your opinion, is last years ST50 a better option for all around least buggy with low input lag? What about a last years GT series or even one of Samsung's comparably priced plasma's? Including last year. Basically what is the safest bet for me to buy in the sub $1800 range that would be the lesser of the evils? I'm trying to decide now between the ST60, ST50, GT50, Samsung PNE6500, and perhaps any others I have missed that fall into the "great value" category. Thanks
post #385 of 1308
Still trying to wrap my head around just how much I'll notice this input lag...

I found a video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjePCW02U78 The "Infamous" Samsung monitor they are using has an input lag of 55-60ms. That's "infamous" and yet the ST60 has 75ms...

I watch that and then watch the video posted in this thread showing the ST60's lag in the same kind of clone test and I wonder just how far off that video really is...I can see the lag in this video, though it's a bit less noticeable than I thought. But 75ms is really into that noticeable territory, and the ST60 video doesn't seem too far off from this one.

Did I mention I hate this issue?! eek.gif
post #386 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Oh wow, I love that guy's voice, it's like listening to a modern speak and spell or something. He should be doing robot voice overs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by supremekizzle View Post

Could you please explain what those various bugs, such as HDMI=Auto Etc., actually are? I guess gaming lag wouldn't be all that big of a deal to me, but the 3d performance does worry me. In your opinion, is last years ST50 a better option for all around least buggy with low input lag? What about a last years GT series or even one of Samsung's comparably priced plasma's? Including last year. Basically what is the safest bet for me to buy in the sub $1800 range that would be the lesser of the evils? I'm trying to decide now between the ST60, ST50, GT50, Samsung PNE6500, and perhaps any others I have missed that fall into the "great value" category. Thanks

ST50 won't look as nice. The GT50 might, it's supposedly a similar spec panel. Sammy won't have 3D, correct? Otherwise it's about 40 ms just like the ST50 and GT50. Probably wouldn't look as nice as a GT50. Out of the TV's you listed, the GT50 would be the best and closest to the ST60 in PQ, but the ST60 will still beat it out in that area. It's more expensive, and if you can hold off a little bit while I sort out the board swap research, then the ST60 may still be a good buy.
post #387 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jlasmax View Post

YUP. And Stump909.......I was saying that if you plan on continuing to play Halo WELL then the st60 is NOT the TV for you unless gaming on a 70-100 ms input lag television is your thing. You completely misinterpreted what I said. Good luck in the leaderboards though buddy rofl......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jlasmax View Post

you will definitely be at the bottom if you pick up the st60 to game on

It's pretty hard to misinterpret that. If you guys want to continue your circlejerk of " it's impossible to game" then go ahead. All you seem to be doing is making yourselves miserable over a minor inconvenience. Clearly the only resolution for your 1337 skillz is to downgrade sets or hope a $400 mod fixes the issue. Constantly reminding and telling each other how terrible you have it isn't very effective. I know my opinion isn't valued around here, but you are all doing a great disservice to people looking for a new TV who happen to game. Most people who view this thread imagine there's going to be a large gap between the time they touch their sticks and the movement on screen, and that simply is not the case. The people who will actually be affected by the problem are a small minority in an already small demographic.
post #388 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Stump I just don't get you. Because if this issue was like, a PQ thing, this forum everyone would be up in arms about it. "OMG the Red point is off by 5 delta!!!" But because you are not a gamer like we are, you just don't get it. It's the same to us as it is to a videophile to have incorrect color. Why don't you understand our point of view? Having anything off, even slightly, to any group of enthusiast, is going to be a problem for that group.
post #389 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Stump I just don't get you. Because if this issue was like, a PQ thing, this forum everyone would be up in arms about it. "OMG the Red point is off by 5 delta!!!" But because you are not a gamer like we are, you just don't get it. It's the same to us as it is to a videophile to have incorrect color. Why don't you understand our point of view? Having anything off, even slightly, to any group of enthusiast, is going to be a problem for that group.

Not only do I understand your point of view, but I agree with it. 70ms is unacceptable by today's standards. However, I refuse to make the claim it's unplayable, because the fact is, it isn't. Final results in gaming comes down to a multitude of factors. Beings able to quickly register what's happening on the screen is a huge one, but saying that a 40ms difference between two sets (assuming the teams are S60s vs ST60s) will determine the final outcome is nonsense. Do I wish it were lower? Yes. Would I recommend an MLG player bring it to a tournament? No, because in that scenario, most of one's competition is guaranteed to have dedicated low-response monitors. In that situation everyone is fighting for any advantage. However, little Joey Two-Hands will still have fun playing on XBL, and with all factors included (opponents' televisions, network lag, general skill, map knowledge, speaker setup), won't see a difference in his final result. I'm actually quite impressed with your willingness to attempt this A-board mod, and if it's successful, I'd consider doing it myself. I know in your situation the effects of this input lag are much greater than most ,being that you play a lot of SF, but most people here I imagine are forcing themselves to to believe the situation is much more problematic than it is. Someone needs to handle the position of "devil's advocate" because otherwise tons of people will turn down this nearly-perfect set for an issue they would have never noticed otherwise. Like I said, I've played multiple online shooters since getting everything set up, and there hasn't been more than one moment, where I SUSPECTED there was a worse than acceptable delay (Bioshock Infinite).
post #390 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Yeah but playing Devil's Advocate here is kinda detrimental to the thread. Sure kids may not notice, unless they're playing a Wii. Any motion controlled game is going to feel pretty bad IMO, especially on games with 1:1 motion controls. Some games you won't notice it so much, but I definitely feel the difference in a 30 fps game, for example Assassin's Creed III felt even more so laggy than it naturally does. 60 fps it isn't as noticeable on games that don 't require intense timing and reaction, something of an adventure sort like Darksiders (PC version) isn't that bad. But if you like 2D games too, and pick up stuff on Steam a lot like indy titles, especially platformers, then it's not so hot. I wouldn't say games are unplayable, but I do feel the TV is unacceptable for an enjoyable gaming experience. When I play, it doesn't feel responsive enough and in the back of my head I'm constantly thinking "if only..."


Anyway, I took down all the part numbers I could find from my ST60 this morning. Most of them don't match up to what's on the Panny parts site even though I'm looking at identical models, so I'm guessing they have a stock pile of "generic" parts if you will that are solely for replacement parts vs what you get in the TV during manufacturing, however having identical functionality.

The A board for the ST60 is $191. Unfortunately, they do not have the A board listed for the VT60, so I don't know what the price will be. I'm going to guess a little bit higher because of the dual core setup. Hoping Panny UK responds soon with a parts site so I can check it out to see if it's more thorough. As it is, the NA site seems a little incomplete at the moment.

Now I'm back to square one. Looking for yet another alternative. Dammit!

Panny UK responded: "In response to your query, I would explain that unfortunately, we can not provide you with the required spare part.

You will need to contact an Authorized Service Centre and they should be able to assist you further on with this issue."

No luck I guess.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Plasma Flat Panel Displays
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Plasma Flat Panel Displays › Official ST60 input lag thread