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Official ST60 input lag thread - Page 14

post #391 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

Not only do I understand your point of view, but I agree with it. 70ms is unacceptable by today's standards. However, I refuse to make the claim it's unplayable, because the fact is, it isn't. Final results in gaming comes down to a multitude of factors. Beings able to quickly register what's happening on the screen is a huge one, but saying that a 40ms difference between two sets (assuming the teams are S60s vs ST60s) will determine the final outcome is nonsense. Do I wish it were lower? Yes. Would I recommend an MLG player bring it to a tournament? No, because in that scenario, most of one's competition is guaranteed to have dedicated low-response monitors. In that situation everyone is fighting for any advantage. However, little Joey Two-Hands will still have fun playing on XBL, and with all factors included (opponents' televisions, network lag, general skill, map knowledge, speaker setup), won't see a difference in his final result. I'm actually quite impressed with your willingness to attempt this A-board mod, and if it's successful, I'd consider doing it myself. I know in your situation the effects of this input lag are much greater than most ,being that you play a lot of SF, but most people here I imagine are forcing themselves to to believe the situation is much more problematic than it is. Someone needs to handle the position of "devil's advocate" because otherwise tons of people will turn down this nearly-perfect set for an issue they would have never noticed otherwise. Like I said, I've played multiple online shooters since getting everything set up, and there hasn't been more than one moment, where I SUSPECTED there was a worse than acceptable delay (Bioshock Infinite).

I concur, I feel the same way. I have not had any issues with input lag. I mostly play shooters and don't notice any input lag on this TV.

I have been saying all along, before you decide that this TV is not for you... try gaming on it first, then decide!!
post #392 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermandlb View Post

I concur, I feel the same way. I have not had any issues with input lag. I mostly play shooters and don't notice any input lag on this TV.

I have been saying all along, before you decide that this TV is not for you... try gaming on it first, then decide!!

Good point, seems like everyone's experience is different..

I haven't played games on it yet, no time.. But I'm planning on checking out Uncharted 3 online, its been a while since I last played.. but I'll report back on my findings.. obviously though I'm not a hardcore gamer, not even close
post #393 of 1308
Thread Starter 
So, I noticed my local sears has a Sammy F8500 in. I'm like great, maybe I could exchange, then I see the input lag is like 60 ms bare minimum in PC mode. 130 otherwise, LOL! Quad core processor? At what, 100 mHz? Anyway, downloading the firmware for the set to see what kind of stuff it is, maybe it would be easier to custom firmware a Sammy.

Why can't I find an alternative? This has turned into a F'n nightmare now.
post #394 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

So, I noticed my local sears has a Sammy F8500 in. I'm like great, maybe I could exchange, then I see the input lag is like 60 ms bare minimum in PC mode. 130 otherwise, LOL! Quad core processor? At what, 100 mHz? Anyway, downloading the firmware for the set to see what kind of stuff it is, maybe it would be easier to custom firmware a Sammy.

Why can't I find an alternative? This has turned into a F'n nightmare now.

No luck with the Panny source code?
post #395 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Panny said they won't have it up for about a month or so, and who would actually trust that they'd live up to their word?
post #396 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

ST50 won't look as nice. The GT50 might, it's supposedly a similar spec panel. Sammy won't have 3D, correct? Otherwise it's about 40 ms just like the ST50 and GT50. Probably wouldn't look as nice as a GT50. Out of the TV's you listed, the GT50 would be the best and closest to the ST60 in PQ, but the ST60 will still beat it out in that area. It's more expensive, and if you can hold off a little bit while I sort out the board swap research, then the ST60 may still be a good buy.
The PNE6500 is in fact 3d and was voted as 3rd best TV of 2012 behind the ST50 and VT50 according to CNET, it also fared well in the input lag database with a "great" rating. Now it really is too bad the ST60 has the various issues you had mentioned on top of the input lag, because I was ready to return my LG LM6400 for it. I've still got 85 days to return it to Costco so maybe I'll see if Panasonic does address this issue. Until then I have to weigh the pros and cons of the ST60, GT50, ST50, and the PNE6500. For the right TV I suppose I can raise my budget to $2000.
post #397 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by supremekizzle View Post

For the right TV I suppose I can raise my budget to $2000.

At this point, I'm in the same boat. I would be willing to raise my budget to $2000 for an amazing picture quality and low input lag. I'm pretty stressed about this frown.gif
post #398 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

I know my opinion isn't valued around here, but you are all doing a great disservice to people looking for a new TV who happen to game.

This is where we disagree. In fact, we are doing a good service to gamers who are looking for a new TV by pointing out, discussing, and nailing down this issue before they drop 4 figures on a new set.

I get it, you don't feel a thing. That's great. But 5 frames is at that threshold where most people should feel at the least something and at the most "OMG this is awful". We are not guy on a fighting game forum talking about how 16ms of lag is just too much cause that's a whole frame and we have the mad skillz...75ms is horrible. And your whole saying that "a 40ms difference between two sets (assuming the teams are S60s vs ST60s) will determine the final outcome is nonsense" point is wrong because it's the cumulative effect that counts! The brain will sync up a lot of things at very low levels of difference, but once certain thresholds are crossed it becomes noticeable. If 40ms means nothing, then why not add another 40ms to the ST70? Cause hell, you didn't notice this lag, and no one really cares right? Now next year you're playing on a set with 120 ms lag, and suddenly you're like "WTF? I FEEL that" and some guy who's been playing his whole life on a Vizo LCD w all the processing turned on tells you "It's not a big deal man....I don't feel a thing! Just enjoy the PQ!" And now you're stuck with a gaming experience that you just don't enjoy as much.

You think a minority of gamers are all that care, check out some comments from over at a gaming forum...you think WE'RE bad?..."75ms is bad. Ideally, you want one around 30ms. No way any gamer should buy this TV. "..."Wow. What a steaming pile of crap. I know the Panasonic guy over at the AV forums used to love talking about his data that said gamers and input lag didn't comprise any appreciable part of their sales, but they're about to find out. That is a pile of **** that I wouldn't accept for free."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

Most people who view this thread imagine there's going to be a large gap between the time they touch their sticks and the movement on screen, and that simply is not the case.

I will agree a bit here in that it's not like you're going to half a full half second between the time you move the stick and the time it reacts. It's more of a feeling of sluggish controls...unless you take a very laggy game to begin with (Mirror's Edge has 133ms lag in the game), then add 75 ms, then anything else along the chain, and now you are almost or perhaps at 250 ms, which is a full 1/4 of a second...

To quote from another forum..."...taken in isolation, most people require incredibly high amounts of lag to identify it with controller. A common assumption is that 60 or 70ms of display lag is going to make actions seem a half second or full second off. It's more subtle than that--more of a feeling. That said, if you were given a 16-25ms panel to play side-by-side, you would immediately identify the difference and likely describe it as significant. It's very much an ignorance is bliss kind of thing, so I wouldn't recommend anyone go looking for trouble with a similar test. " You can almost think of it like display issues we all obsess over. If you don't see the rainbows or DFC, you don't care. But those that do even end up taking the set back because it's "unwatchable", which seems crazy to the rest of us. Much like input lag making something "unplayable" must seem to you.
post #399 of 1308
Just wanted to come on here and thank everyone for all the excellent info on this thread. Just this weekend I participated in NorCal regionals, which is yearly feeder tournament to EVO. For those who aren't familiar, it's a fighting game tournament. It's my belief that of all games available, fighting games are affected the most by input lag.

I've owned the ST60 for a bit and happily played Street Fighter, racing games, and tons of other games on the panel and didn't think lag was ever an issue. This weekend at the tournament, I realized just how bad it was. In the case of SF4, I had inadvertently gotten used to "buffering" inputs before something happens on the screen to get it right. It's insane what a difference a few frames can make, especially when 1 or 2 frame button presses (@60fps) are the norm. I couldn't adjust my timings before my pool began, so I was eliminated right away.

I've thought about this a lot this weekend, and my solution is to simply buy a smaller monitor for SF use. The thing is, even reducing lag on the TV won't solve my problem as I have an AVR in the mix. Any component downstream from your gaming console can affect the final output. In fact, I'm convinced that the combination of my Denon AVR and ST60 was introducing variable lag (!), which made it infinitely difficult to land consistent combos in SF. Even in game mode, the lag was still noticeable. After having practiced on lagless monitors for a bit this weekend, my combo consistency rate has improved noticeably.

Back home, I connected up my roomie's low lag monitor, and comparing it between that and the ST60 it was clear as night and day. If you don't play side by side you probably will never notice (for the weekend/casual gamer), but if you do any sort of competitive gaming (online or not) I would recommend staying away from this panel. Much props to all the guys involved in spreading this info. If only I knew before I bought the TV... this makes me really sad because the ST60 is otherwise a fantastic panel.
Edited by zstryder - 4/29/13 at 1:57pm
post #400 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post

This is where we disagree. In fact, we are doing a good service to gamers who are looking for a new TV by pointing out, discussing, and nailing down this issue before they drop 4 figures on a new set.

I get it, you don't feel a thing. That's great. But 5 frames is at that threshold where most people should feel at the least something and at the most "OMG this is awful". We are not guy on a fighting game forum talking about how 16ms of lag is just too much cause that's a whole frame and we have the mad skillz...75ms is horrible. And your whole saying that "a 40ms difference between two sets (assuming the teams are S60s vs ST60s) will determine the final outcome is nonsense" point is wrong because it's the cumulative effect that counts! The brain will sync up a lot of things at very low levels of difference, but once certain thresholds are crossed it becomes noticeable. If 40ms means nothing, then why not add another 40ms to the ST70? Cause hell, you didn't notice this lag, and no one really cares right? Now next year you're playing on a set with 120 ms lag, and suddenly you're like "WTF? I FEEL that" and some guy who's been playing his whole life on a Vizo LCD w all the processing turned on tells you "It's not a big deal man....I don't feel a thing! Just enjoy the PQ!" And now you're stuck with a gaming experience that you just don't enjoy as much.

You think a minority of gamers are all that care, check out some comments from over at a gaming forum...you think WE'RE bad?..."75ms is bad. Ideally, you want one around 30ms. No way any gamer should buy this TV. "..."Wow. What a steaming pile of crap. I know the Panasonic guy over at the AV forums used to love talking about his data that said gamers and input lag didn't comprise any appreciable part of their sales, but they're about to find out. That is a pile of **** that I wouldn't accept for free."
I will agree a bit here in that it's not like you're going to half a full half second between the time you move the stick and the time it reacts. It's more of a feeling of sluggish controls...unless you take a very laggy game to begin with (Mirror's Edge has 133ms lag in the game), then add 75 ms, then anything else along the chain, and now you are almost or perhaps at 250 ms, which is a full 1/4 of a second...

To quote from another forum..."...taken in isolation, most people require incredibly high amounts of lag to identify it with controller. A common assumption is that 60 or 70ms of display lag is going to make actions seem a half second or full second off. It's more subtle than that--more of a feeling. That said, if you were given a 16-25ms panel to play side-by-side, you would immediately identify the difference and likely describe it as significant. It's very much an ignorance is bliss kind of thing, so I wouldn't recommend anyone go looking for trouble with a similar test. " You can almost think of it like display issues we all obsess over. If you don't see the rainbows or DFC, you don't care. But those that do even end up taking the set back because it's "unwatchable", which seems crazy to the rest of us. Much like input lag making something "unplayable" must seem to you.

I am a gamer??? I love this TV. I believe that saying,"if you are a gamer then this TV is not for you" is false. I believe the point is...If you have the means, try it out before you dismiss this TV for input lag

We have seen the input lag measured anywhere from 47ms to over 100ms - http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panasonic-tx-p42st60-201303312779.htm?page=Performance

I would hate for anyone (gamers included) to miss out on such a great TV over something they might not notice.
post #401 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermandlb View Post

We have seen the input lag measured anywhere from 47ms to over 100ms - http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panasonic-tx-p42st60-201303312779.htm?page=Performance

It's approx 75 ms, or 5 frames. That's been nailed down at this point.

Really glad you like the TV. I think a post like zstryder's illustrates what I was saying. Ignorance is bliss. But if you notice it, you NOTICE it.
post #402 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Sure kids may not notice, unless they're playing a Wii. Any motion controlled game is going to feel pretty bad IMO, especially on games with 1:1 motion controls.

Honestly, I'm not a serious enough gamer to care about the input lag, but seeing this comment has me concerned. It makes me think that I won't be able to use the ST60 for Wii games. Has anyone done so personally who can report back with their experience? We play Wii on occasion in our house, usually socially, so if it's unusable (with either motion controlled games or scrollers like Kirby or New Super Mario) that'd be an issue.
post #403 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post

It's approx 75 ms, or 5 frames. That's been nailed down at this point.

Really glad you like the TV. I think a post like zstryder's illustrates what I was saying. Ignorance is bliss. But if you notice it, you NOTICE it.

We'll say 4 to 5 frames (I am personally waiting to see what displaylag.com reports before I believe anything is nailed down) but all I know is; I have game mode on, all picture enhancements off and I have also disconnected the TV from the internet and I don't notice any input lag.

but everyone's sensitivity is different, so I you what you mean.
post #404 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA View Post

Honestly, I'm not a serious enough gamer to care about the input lag, but seeing this comment has me concerned. It makes me think that I won't be able to use the ST60 for Wii games. Has anyone done so personally who can report back with their experience? We play Wii on occasion in our house, usually socially, so if it's unusable (with either motion controlled games or scrollers like Kirby or New Super Mario) that'd be an issue.

I have Wii and PS3 Move. Same as any other gaming I've done, I don't notice input lag with either system.

I would try it for yourself before you dismiss the ST60.
post #405 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

At this point, I'm in the same boat. I would be willing to raise my budget to $2000 for an amazing picture quality and low input lag. I'm pretty stressed about this frown.gif
If your FT60 doesn't work out for you, would you have the patience to wait for early fall when the big discounts for HDTVs start?

Quote:
Originally Posted by supermandlb View Post

I have Wii and PS3 Move. Same as any other gaming I've done, I don't notice input lag with either system.

I would try it for yourself before you dismiss the ST60.
As previously mentioned, that's good advice. But only if you can find a store that sells on consignment. Every store I tried going to (BestBuy, Hhgregg, etc. No Sears around me) wouldn't let me bring my system in. I'd hate to go through the trouble of loading/unloading, unpacking and connecting, and playing the TV in my place only to find the lag is horrible. Then there's restocking fees...too...
post #406 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by zstryder View Post

Just wanted to come on here and thank everyone for all the excellent info on this thread. Just this weekend I participated in NorCal regionals, which is yearly feeder tournament to EVO. For those who aren't familiar, it's a fighting game tournament. It's my belief that of all games available, fighting games are affected the most by input lag.

I've owned the ST60 for a bit and happily played Street Fighter, racing games, and tons of other games on the panel and didn't think lag was ever an issue. This weekend at the tournament, I realized just how bad it was. In the case of SF4, I had inadvertently gotten used to "buffering" inputs before something happens on the screen to get it right. It's insane what a difference a few frames can make, especially when 1 or 2 frame button presses (@60fps) are the norm. I couldn't adjust my timings before my pool began, so I was eliminated right away.

I've thought about this a lot this weekend, and my solution is to simply buy a smaller monitor for SF use. The thing is, even reducing lag on the TV won't solve my problem as I have an AVR in the mix. Any component downstream from your gaming console can affect the final output. In fact, I'm convinced that the combination of my Denon AVR and ST60 was introducing variable lag (!), which made it infinitely difficult to land consistent combos in SF. Even in game mode, the lag was still noticeable. After having practiced on lagless monitors for a bit this weekend, my combo consistency rate has improved noticeably.

Back home, I connected up my roomie's low lag monitor, and comparing it between that and the ST60 it was clear as night and day. If you don't play side by side you probably will never notice (for the weekend/casual gamer), but if you do any sort of competitive gaming (online or not) I would recommend staying away from this panel. Much props to all the guys involved in spreading this info. If only I knew before I bought the TV... this makes me really sad because the ST60 is otherwise a fantastic panel.

Couple things that just didn't add up to me while reading your posts.

I had pulled up this thread but then stepped away. So I read the beginning of your post, but when you said , "I have owned this TV for over a year", I decided to refresh the page immediately to see if this had been changed. You changed it to say, "I have owned this TV for a bit".

I am under the impression you might be talking about a TV different than the thread's ST60. I just thought it was an odd edit.

Also I am surprised a competitive gamer's main setup would be to go through his AVR. I know for me I found it wasn't an option. Too much lag when using my AVR. But I did not really dive into it all too deeply. I played with a few settings and then just decided I would just go hdmi straight from the Xbox to the TV, and run optical audio from Xbox to AVR.

Just curious, as I was a little perplexed.
post #407 of 1308
Is input lag mainly a problem for fighting games? I play a lot of Wii, Halo, and CoD. Besides input lag, what were the 3d problems with this set?
post #408 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by zstryder View Post

I've thought about this a lot this weekend, and my solution is to simply buy a smaller monitor for SF use. The thing is, even reducing lag on the TV won't solve my problem as I have an AVR in the mix. Any component downstream from your gaming console can affect the final output. In fact, I'm convinced that the combination of my Denon AVR and ST60 was introducing variable lag (!), which made it infinitely difficult to land consistent combos in SF. Even in game mode, the lag was still noticeable. After having practiced on lagless monitors for a bit this weekend, my combo consistency rate has improved noticeably.

Back home, I connected up my roomie's low lag monitor, and comparing it between that and the ST60 it was clear as night and day. If you don't play side by side you probably will never notice (for the weekend/casual gamer), but if you do any sort of competitive gaming (online or not) I would recommend staying away from this panel. Much props to all the guys involved in spreading this info. If only I knew before I bought the TV... this makes me really sad because the ST60 is otherwise a fantastic panel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mphfrom77 View Post

Also I am surprised a competitive gamer's main setup would be to go through his AVR. I know for me I found it wasn't an option. Too much lag when using my AVR. But I did not really dive into it all too deeply. I played with a few settings and then just decided I would just go hdmi straight from the Xbox to the TV, and run optical audio from Xbox to AVR.

Just curious, as I was a little perplexed.

There are actually plenty of AVR's that introduce no or negligible lag. The thing you absolutely want to avoid is any kind of OSD overlay (e.g. volume, source labels, etc displayed over your actual source content). Most Pioneer's as of a year or two ago did not have this feature, and as such were excellent "gaming" AVR's with no measurable increase. The same was true of earlier model Onkyo's as well. I am unsure what has changed in the last couple years, they may have pretty much all implemented it by now. Denon have doing OSD overlays for 4 or 5+ years now and I've seen confirmed lag of 16-32ms out of them
post #409 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by supremekizzle View Post

Is input lag mainly a problem for fighting games? I play a lot of Wii, Halo, and CoD. Besides input lag, what were the 3d problems with this set?
Fighting games are apparently where it's most noticeable, followed by any twitch games played with a mouse and keyboard, then followed by 30 fps console games (like Halo). You won't notice the lag as much on CoD since it runs at 60fps. But with Halo, I can instantly tell if a display has input lag by playing just a couple minutes.
post #410 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post


There are actually plenty of AVR's that introduce no or negligible lag. The thing you absolutely want to avoid is any kind of OSD overlay (e.g. volume, source labels, etc displayed over your actual source content). Most Pioneer's as of a year or two ago did not have this feature, and as such were excellent "gaming" AVR's with no measurable increase. The same was true of earlier model Onkyo's as well. I am unsure what has changed in the last couple years, they may have pretty much all implemented it by now. Denon have doing OSD overlays for 4 or 5+ years now and I've seen confirmed lag of 16-32ms out of them

Mine has a video processor bypass, so I assume it's not too bad haha. I'm gonna run the Guitar Hero calibration ~10 times and post my results.
post #411 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermandlb View Post

I have Wii and PS3 Move. Same as any other gaming I've done, I don't notice input lag with either system.

I would try it for yourself before you dismiss the ST60.

Play a game with 1:1 motion controls. Anything that follows your hand movements should be quite noticeable as the TV's delayed response trails your hand movements. Kinect would be a problem too, especially in stuff that completely tracks your body like a dancing game, though hopefully the developers take into account variance in lag for displays on such things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermandlb View Post

We'll say 4 to 5 frames (I am personally waiting to see what displaylag.com reports before I believe anything is nailed down) but all I know is; I have game mode on, all picture enhancements off and I have also disconnected the TV from the internet and I don't notice any input lag.

but everyone's sensitivity is different, so I you what you mean.

It's 5 frames, it's been a consistent 5 frames on my tests and the Leo Bodnar is testing the same. DisplayLag is going to end up reporting the same thing.

Want to know the easiest way to "notice" input lag? Output a PC to it, and use the mouse. Get used to how it feels. Then change the monitor to your regular PC monitor. Use the mouse. Easiest way to see just how different in feel it is. I can actually spot the difference visually on my CRT as well when I switch between them. But the feel is the easiest way to sense it as they're completely different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zstryder View Post

Just wanted to come on here and thank everyone for all the excellent info on this thread. Just this weekend I participated in NorCal regionals, which is yearly feeder tournament to EVO. For those who aren't familiar, it's a fighting game tournament. It's my belief that of all games available, fighting games are affected the most by input lag.

I've owned the ST60 for a bit and happily played Street Fighter, racing games, and tons of other games on the panel and didn't think lag was ever an issue. This weekend at the tournament, I realized just how bad it was. In the case of SF4, I had inadvertently gotten used to "buffering" inputs before something happens on the screen to get it right. It's insane what a difference a few frames can make, especially when 1 or 2 frame button presses (@60fps) are the norm. I couldn't adjust my timings before my pool began, so I was eliminated right away.

I've thought about this a lot this weekend, and my solution is to simply buy a smaller monitor for SF use. The thing is, even reducing lag on the TV won't solve my problem as I have an AVR in the mix. Any component downstream from your gaming console can affect the final output. In fact, I'm convinced that the combination of my Denon AVR and ST60 was introducing variable lag (!), which made it infinitely difficult to land consistent combos in SF. Even in game mode, the lag was still noticeable. After having practiced on lagless monitors for a bit this weekend, my combo consistency rate has improved noticeably.

Back home, I connected up my roomie's low lag monitor, and comparing it between that and the ST60 it was clear as night and day. If you don't play side by side you probably will never notice (for the weekend/casual gamer), but if you do any sort of competitive gaming (online or not) I would recommend staying away from this panel. Much props to all the guys involved in spreading this info. If only I knew before I bought the TV... this makes me really sad because the ST60 is otherwise a fantastic panel.

Yeah, having to do all your inputs "early" or buffering them to match the lag really teaches you the wrong way to play the games. Case in point over on the EC there was a tournament a clan member went too and he thought the lagless supergun setup was dropping inputs, not realizing that his setup at home was actually at minimum 4 frames behind the supergun. So he was doing a bunch of stuff much earlier than he was supposed to and dropping combos. I can't imagine having to learn on this TV and then getting blown up on a lagless tournament. 1 to 2 frames isn't a big deal but 5 frames is really pushing it, hell I know there are attacks that are active in 5 frames so you'd be getting hit before you have a chance to block.
post #412 of 1308
S60 "for the win". Couldn't be happier with my choice to switch from the ST60. Glad I didn't wait past the return policy or I would have had extreme buyer's remorse. I want to say my thanks again to everyone's contribution to this thread as it helped the decision making process a lot easier. #TURNT UP!
post #413 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Play a game with 1:1 motion controls. Anything that follows your hand movements should be quite noticeable as the TV's delayed response trails your hand movements. Kinect would be a problem too, especially in stuff that completely tracks your body like a dancing game, though hopefully the developers take into account variance in lag for displays on such things.
It's 5 frames, it's been a consistent 5 frames on my tests and the Leo Bodnar is testing the same. DisplayLag is going to end up reporting the same thing.

Want to know the easiest way to "notice" input lag? Output a PC to it, and use the mouse. Get used to how it feels. Then change the monitor to your regular PC monitor. Use the mouse. Easiest way to see just how different in feel it is. I can actually spot the difference visually on my CRT as well when I switch between them. But the feel is the easiest way to sense it as they're completely different.
Yeah, having to do all your inputs "early" or buffering them to match the lag really teaches you the wrong way to play the games. Case in point over on the EC there was a tournament a clan member went too and he thought the lagless supergun setup was dropping inputs, not realizing that his setup at home was actually at minimum 4 frames behind the supergun. So he was doing a bunch of stuff much earlier than he was supposed to and dropping combos. I can't imagine having to learn on this TV and then getting blown up on a lagless tournament. 1 to 2 frames isn't a big deal but 5 frames is really pushing it, hell I know there are attacks that are active in 5 frames so you'd be getting hit before you have a chance to block.

Wouldn't 5 frames be 83 ms, not 70 to 72ms. So we'll say 4 to 5 frames.

I don't use this TV as a computer monitor, so I could care less how the response of a mouse is.

All I can say is I use this TV for gaming on PS3 and Wii and I haven't noticed input lag.

I'll say it again, if you have the ability; try it out before you dismiss the ST60 for input lag
post #414 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermandlb View Post


I don't use this TV as a computer monitor, so I could care less how the response of a mouse is.

All I can say is I use this TV for gaming on PS3 and Wii and I haven't noticed input lag.

I'll say it again, if you have the ability; try it out before you dismiss the ST60 for input lag

This. I am mainly an action/adventure type of gamer (assassins creed, fable, god of war, etc.) and play a lot of Wii and Wii virtual console, but wanted the option there to be able to play demanding games if I needed to. The more I read about the input lag the more frustrated and pissed off I get at Panasonic. How could they make such an awesome TV with this big of a flaw? This set may very well be the TV of the year and I hope Panasonic sees some backlash for the lag and offers some kind of solution. I'm really big into the Android mobile OS and the dev community that comes with it; is there a dev community out there for TVs? Is it possible to root a TV and work up a custom firmware to help the lag on this set?
post #415 of 1308
"Wouldn't 5 frames be 83 ms, not 70 to 72ms. So we'll say 4 to 5 frames."

Anything past I believe 67ms or so is 5 frames. And 75ms has been confirmed w 2 different sources using the best test there is, and also matches perfectly with Moonchilde's frame tests.

"I don't use this TV as a computer monitor, so I could care less how the response of a mouse is.

All I can say is I use this TV for gaming on PS3 and Wii and I haven't noticed input lag."

And what do you think the 1:1 controls of say a Wii or PS Move are closest too? wink.gif

I have several Move games that I love...I'd hate to feel horrible lag while playing them. Do you own Killzone 3? Try out your PS move with that game and tell me you don't notice any lag, even on very quick back & forth movements, and I'll bump the ST60 a bit further into the potential "buy" column.
post #416 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by supremekizzle View Post

I'm really big into the Android mobile OS and the dev community that comes with it; is there a dev community out there for TVs? Is it possible to root a TV and work up a custom firmware to help the lag on this set?

Actually, there IS a dev community. Samy Go is a community based around custom Samsung firmware, although Sammy is making it more difficult to get into the TV's these days.

http://www.samygo.tv/

and some forums, which looks like they mention stuff about ubooting into the older TV's, but that seems disabled now. I dunno.

http://forum.samygo.tv/

Seriously, if someone was to make a firmware for the F8500, which has a quad core processor, strip out all the garbage apps and stuff, and make the image processing have high affinity and high priority, it would probably be the most perfect gaming television ever.

I looked into Panasonic's firmware. The license lists all the opensource stuff they use, it looks like a FreeBSD fork of some sort and lists BSD 4.4 Lite (which from what I've read, is from 1995...) as the only operating system license. AFAIK, FreeBSD isn't ARM compatible, so you'd have to check into one of the forks, like NetBSD. Anyway, booting off a USB stick of some sort may be difficult, since I have no idea how you'd trigger that.

I've also asked Panny for the source code, which they said they'll upload in a month, that's if they are just saying that to get rid of me, LOL.

BTW, if you find any info, please post ASAP. Tomorrow is my last day within a 30 day return period to make a decision to try to find an alternative mod or try to find a different TV. Not looking good on the latter.

I'll help in anyway I can but at the moment, programming is beyond me and so is using Linux/BSD.
post #417 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermandlb View Post

Wouldn't 5 frames be 83 ms, not 70 to 72ms. So we'll say 4 to 5 frames.

16.7 is the end of frame 1 and the start of frame 2
33.4 is the end of frame 2 and the start of frame 3
50.1 is the end of frame 3 and the start of frame 4
66.8 is the end of frame 4 and the start of frame 5

Have to count from 0, not from 1. It's 5 frames.
post #418 of 1308
After reading some about Panasonic's track record with IR, I may just go with a Samsung. Maybe last year's PNE6500. Sure the blacks may not be as black as the ST60, but probably better than my LG LM6400 which already looks perfectly acceptable to my eyes (I just came from a Coby 32 inch so anything is WORLDS better). I just can't live with it's motion blur.
post #419 of 1308
Thread Starter 
The thing that sucks is that this year there is only the F5500 or the F8500. The F5500 has a horrible pentile display, so that leaves the F8500, which is high input lag. But it has amazing 3D and great picture motion from what I've read, with accurate colors and decent blacks. If people were to break that set open with a custom firmware focusing on input lag, it would probably be the best display in the last few years with that quad core working it. I'm tempted to get one for that possibility.

E6500 has 41 ms of input lag on PC mode. So that means you don't get any of the color calibration options.

Oh right, I wanted to comment on the IR. I haven't had anything really bad, and when I did get some bad IR I was able to get rid of it by running a pixel flipper overnight. If you were to do a "cleaning" every few weeks overnight it would probably never have any IR problems.
post #420 of 1308
I'm curious to know if those who are experiencing input lag and minor "soe" are also experiencing it due to a setting on their receivers? Some higher end recievers do have their own video processing enabled by default, and when turned on can add to input lag having processing on top of processing. This could also maybe be explaining some of the issues with those few complaining of having a mild SOE effect.

I've noticed since i've had it hooked up to my Integra that if the HDMI video settings was not set to "Through" (meaning no processing at all) that I sometimes got a little "skip" or a bit more input lag when im playing something on my xbox.

I don't notice any input lag at all, with the TV set to game mode it feels no different than my old sammy plasma or my sharp LCD this comming from a hardcore PC gamer/moderate console gamer that knows what input lag feels like. While I have not tried it hooked up to ym PC (Don't like to play PC game on my TV as its not my desk and its not comfortable to me with a Keyboard and mouse) so I can't comment on direct feeling of lag with a mouse, but playing any of my driving games/COD/Devil May cry etc.. I cant feel a single long pause or delay whenever I hit a button or move the stick. Unlike when I turn it off and theres an ever so slight delay that completely messes you up.

Just a thought, trying to remedy this for the few people that it seems to be a problem for. I'll post this in the input lag thread as well.
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