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Official ST60 input lag thread - Page 15

post #421 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shady195 View Post

I've noticed since i've had it hooked up to my Integra that if the HDMI video settings was not set to "Through" (meaning no processing at all) that I sometimes got a little "skip" or a bit more input lag when im playing something on my xbox.

Use the SUB HDMI output if you wish to reduce lag.
post #422 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

Use the SUB HDMI output if you wish to reduce lag.

I wasnt saying that I was getting lag, I was implying that if not set to "Through" you may get some lag.

I have none thats noticeable in between an LCD set and my ST60
Edited by Shady195 - 4/30/13 at 6:22am
post #423 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shady195 View Post

I wasnt saying that I was getting lag, I was implying that if not set to "Through" you may get some lag.

What you are implying is not correct. 'Direct' is the mode that will give you the least processing and lag for the MAIN HDMI output.
However, as a fellow Integra owner who has tested this, I can assure you that MAIN still has undefeatable lag. The SUB output bypasses this and fares (1 frame) better.
post #424 of 1308
Man, this all makes me appreciate just how awesome my S1 plasma is for gaming. I ran that human benchmark reaction time test from earlier in this thread on my PC, then on my PS3 internet browser and got basically the exact same times...and the PS3 is going through a receiver too, and the S1 is in Cinema mode!

It would almost be perfect to just use the S1 as the gaming TV and buy the ST60, except I use the PS3 for Blu Rays and Netflix. Plus it doesn't let me game on an awesome big screen.
post #425 of 1308
& you could press the [VCR/DVR] and [RETURN] buttons on the AV receiver(Onkyo) at the same time & select “Skip” in the “VideoProcessor” setting on the display to bypass the video processor all together. That's what I did. I'm satisfied with the Panasonics scaling/processing.
post #426 of 1308
I finally got my 60" ST60 in. For the type of games I play on it I do not notice any input lag what so ever. I tested Metal Gear Rising which is a 60 fps fast Action Game and Dragon's Dogma which is a Action RPG that runs at 30 if you're lucky, sometimes lags a bit. Plugged in a few other games too. I did not notice a lack of responsiveness what so ever in any of the games I played.

I'd only be worried about lag for this set if you're hardcore into Fighting Games or oldschool 2D Platforming (which you'd probably be playing on a CRT anyways). Maybe if you were super serious about competitive FPS too, but otherwise it's unlikely that it'd affect you much if at all.
post #427 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfoh View Post

I finally got my 60" ST60 in. For the type of games I play on it I do not notice any input lag what so ever. I tested Metal Gear Rising which is a 60 fps fast Action Game and Dragon's Dogma which is a Action RPG that runs at 30 if you're lucky, sometimes lags a bit. Plugged in a few other games too. I did not notice a lack of responsiveness what so ever in any of the games I played.

I'd only be worried about lag for this set if you're hardcore into Fighting Games or oldschool 2D Platforming (which you'd probably be playing on a CRT anyways). Maybe if you were super serious about competitive FPS too, but otherwise it's unlikely that it'd affect you much if at all.

The lag exists but it's not noticeable, perfect. Just like lag exists in the controller to the console and the hdmi cable to the tv. The point is none of this is noticeable to the 99%. I'm no longer going to bother with this thread or worrying about this sets input lag. It's Cnets first 5 out 5 tv and I'm buying it.
post #428 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfoh View Post

I finally got my 60" ST60 in. For the type of games I play on it I do not notice any input lag what so ever. I tested Metal Gear Rising which is a 60 fps fast Action Game and Dragon's Dogma which is a Action RPG that runs at 30 if you're lucky, sometimes lags a bit. Plugged in a few other games too. I did not notice a lack of responsiveness what so ever in any of the games I played.

I'd only be worried about lag for this set if you're hardcore into Fighting Games or oldschool 2D Platforming (which you'd probably be playing on a CRT anyways). Maybe if you were super serious about competitive FPS too, but otherwise it's unlikely that it'd affect you much if at all.

+1, I concur
post #429 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Ok, we get it that you guys don't care about input lag. Thanks.
post #430 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Ok, we get it that you guys don't care about input lag. Thanks.

It's not that we don't care, we just don't notice it. And many gamers (depending on the games they play and there level of sensitivity) might not notice it either.
post #431 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Ok, we get it that you guys don't care about input lag. Thanks.

I care about it, it's just a non-issue in many genres of games. I would love to see it fixed even though it's rare that I would be affected by it.

Recommendations for the set should definitely be based on what people do or do not play, it's not black and white that it's an outright bad set for gamers. I'm a pretty avid gamer. I have upwards of 200 PS2 games, over 100 X360 games, and about 25 PS3 games (most of my games from systems before that are sadly long gone, though I still have a few dozen PS1 games as well). Only a handful of them would see a tangible negative effect at the worst.

If there is something to fix it, be it hacked firmware or even swapping boards, I will definitely do it since I would like to never have to worry about it just in case.
post #432 of 1308
I wouldn't say that it is about the type of games we play, rather than the display you had before. If you're used to a laggy display and you don't notice it, you should be fine with the st60,otherwise the lag would be pretty obvious.
post #433 of 1308
All good points. If all I played was certain types of games I wouldn't care. But I play fighters, a few shooters, and several PS Move games (The Fight : Lights Out is awesome...seriously). And I am coming from a TV with minimal lag.

Sasquatch321, if you would please let us know after you buy the TV and try it out what you think. You seem to game a great deal, your opinion would be valued.
post #434 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post

All good points. If all I played was certain types of games I wouldn't care. But I play fighters, a few shooters, and several PS Move games (The Fight : Lights Out is awesome...seriously). And I am coming from a TV with minimal lag.

Sasquatch321, if you would please let us know after you buy the TV and try it out what you think. You seem to game a great deal, your opinion would be valued.

Yep, then it should absolutely be a concern for you. For someone who plays RPGs, turn-based games, and stuff like that though it wouldn't make a lick of difference. It wasn't noticeable in the hack & slash action games either.

Another note: I tried doing that box dragging thing with the TV as a second monitor like someone posted youtube videos of. I did *not* get the lag that he did at all, for me the ST60 appeared just like the S60 in his video, completely smooth. However, when I set the TV's refresh rate to 24hz to play around with 1080/24 settings on the TV with it I got the same crazy lag that he got when he was dragging the boxes around in his ST60 video.

Note: my monitor is a NEC 20WMGX2.
post #435 of 1308
The NEC 20WMGX2 has 33ms of lag itself, so there's only a 40ms difference between them. I'm not sure what the monitor was that was used in those other videos though. Your test probably looks more like the video I posted on page 13.

Interestingly my S1 has 33ms of lag, so you're going from exactly what I'm used to and using now, to the ST60. So now I'm very interested in your experience lol.
post #436 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfoh View Post

Note: my monitor is a NEC 20WMGX2.

OT: If there has been a better mainstream monitor made since 2006, I don't know what it is. I'm on my second one, which I bought as a spare back when they were phasing them out, and everyone was going to TN, and I've got probably 2 years on it so far. I'm genuinely dreading the day it dies. I know IPS has made something of a comeback, but I don't know that any contemporary monitor puts all the pieces together as well as the 20WMGX2.
post #437 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

OT: If there has been a better mainstream monitor made since 2006, I don't know what it is. I'm on my second one, which I bought as a spare back when they were phasing them out, and everyone was going to TN, and I've got probably 2 years on it so far. I'm genuinely dreading the day it dies. I know IPS has made something of a comeback, but I don't know that any contemporary monitor puts all the pieces together as well as the 20WMGX2.

I had to sell mine 5 years ago. The only tech decision I regret 'til this day.
post #438 of 1308
Well, decision time is gonna have to come soon darn it. My wife is currently reading financial management books, and she suddenly wants to turn our lives all around so we can save for x, y, and z. I was100% sold on the ST60 till this issue came out of nowhere and blindsided me. I was "informed" that I have to make a decision from within the budget I have (approx 1700), and she wants it over and done with soon preferably. So any ideas I had about trying to score a discounted VT60 might not be an option. I'm even back to looking at the VT50's. 45-50ms of lag is pretty solid in comparison and decent overall. I may be able to get the 55 that BB offered me for 1500...maybe even a little less than that. Another BB has an open box 65 inch, but prob out of the budget unless they REALLY wanted to get rid of it. I do love the overall design and polish of the VT50's, and the PQ is easily reference level after calibration, just with not quite as dark blacks as the ST60. But I'm still likely paying more for a smaller tv (55 inch vs 60 inch) and just a hair worse PQ in some aspects (black levels). A 65VT50 would be awesome for it's size and PQ and I'd be pretty damn happy with it...but seriously prob out of the budget. (We'll see if BB even responds to the issue I mentioned in the VT50 deals thread with how bad they were over the phone...maybe a decent discount?)

Wife has said I could sell the P42S1 to try and get the difference, but we hadn't planned on it before, and I kinda don't want to. It has rising blacks yes, but overall has proven it's worth and reliability over the years (was an open box too!). So my only options are wait a few months if I can to try and score a 55VT60 for a discount with whatever money I can save (maybe another 200 or so), try and get a VT50 now and probably feel like either way I wanted bigger than a 55 inch, or...just get the ST60 and maybe I can leave some of the gaming to the other tv, even though that defeats a lot of the purpose of getting a nice new bigger better set. Seriously, the ST60 has everything I ever wanted in a tv,, except the lag. And I will be owning this set as my main set for a very long time...beyond 5 years easy. PS4 will be played on this set eventually. I really want this to be a non issue!

I can't see hauling my gaming system to best buy or video only...but at this point I've read and read about all this. Only testing it will really give me a good feel one way or the other. It sucks that such a fun decision has turned into such a headache!
post #439 of 1308
Get the VT50 & be done with it. The VT50 will produce a slightly better picture than the ST60. They are very similar. It sounds like you can get a good deal on the VT, so just do it. The 2D picture will be a wash, but everything else is favor of the VT. Panel, filter, settings, 3D, ease of calibration, processing.
post #440 of 1308
Unless your are a hardcore gamer, gaming is fine on the ST60. I never realized how many championship level video game players we have here. Lol

I would go 60ST60 over a 55VT50 unless video gaming is your main priority. The 65VT50 obviously trumps all. That would be the way to go.
post #441 of 1308
Can you leave game mode on or does it affect PQ or anything else? I plan on after 100 hours, input dnice settings and use custom for everything, so any detriment to turning game mode on and leaving it on?
post #442 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobBas View Post

Can you leave game mode on or does it affect PQ or anything else? I plan on after 100 hours, input dnice settings and use custom for everything, so any detriment to turning game mode on and leaving it on?
On the surface all it seems to do is grey out the motion smoother and refresh rate settings. No one knows exactly what it does under the hood, but I don't see the harm.
post #443 of 1308
Thread Starter 
I've already answered this. The TV operates under normal settings at 6 frames of input lag, so 83.5 to 100.2 ms. If you enable Game Mode, it only takes the set down to 5 frames of lag, so basically it shaves off a frame, which isn't all that much. If you enable 1080p Direct, then that changes to 7 frames of lag on normal settings or 6 frames of lag with Game Mode on. Motion smoothing will add yet another frame, but can't be enabled while Game Mode is on, so if you were to have 1080p Direct AND Motion Smoothing, you're at 8 frames of lag, which is no more than 133.6 ms. At that point, you may start to notice audio desync, so change the audio delay on your AVR to match your settings.
post #444 of 1308
I know I asked this earlier, but I was very curious about it. Does anyone who has this set also have a PS move and Killzone 3? If you do, I'd love to hear if it feels fairly 1:1 as it does on my S1 when I play. If so I'd inch the ST60 more into the buy it & try it column.

Also, David Mackenzie of HDTV test has now weighed in over at HDJ insider thread about the lag issue. He did mention it to some Panasonic engineers and seems to think it is an issue worth being addressed. I'm hoping that just maybe this can lead to at least an attempted fix via firmware.
post #445 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Having someone with some fairly good cred in the scene would be a great step in the right direction. If they're not willing to listen to gamers, maybe they'd be willing to listen to a reviewer with thousands of readers.
post #446 of 1308
In the same thread the insider says explicitly that for them this is a "non-issue" and they aren't going to address it.

It's poinless going on with these false illusions: if we want less input-lag we should buy another set
post #447 of 1308
Almost all of the reviews and there are a ton out there state that the issue will not affect but the most hardcore of gamers. Bottom line is if gaming is THE most important factor then look elsewhere, otherwise buy this amazing TV with a dirt cheap price. Also when people hear "lag" they freak out, we are talking 100 milliseconds or less, it's not like I am going to click jump then 2 seconds later my character jumps, nothing like this.

Also, the previous poster is correct, high probability Panny will not fix anything, if they did not offer some sort of fix for panels doubling in black level a few years back (I was a victim) back then, they certainly aren't going to care about 100ms or less lag. Given my 2008 Panny blacks rising to grey levels, if input lag is the major issue on this TV, I'll take it.
post #448 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobBas View Post

(...) Also when people hear "lag" they freak out, we are talking 100 milliseconds or less, it's not like I am going to click jump then 2 seconds later my character jumps, nothing like this.(...)

That is true, but it is also worth noting that the games themselves operate with a set amount of lag. For a 30fps console game this can be anything between 100 to 150ms. Add display lag and you arrive at something closer to 250ms which is more likely to be noticed even by more casual gamers. Since we can't change the speed at which the game operates, the idea is to minimize the lag of your display to keep the total delay under a certain treshold. It's impossible to eliminate the lag completely even with a 0 lag display but it is possible to keep the total low enough so it is not a perceptible issue.

Still, as you mentioned, input lag is not something jarring that you can easily "see". It's more of a weighty feeling to the controls and with most games you can adapt to it with time.
post #449 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post

I know I asked this earlier, but I was very curious about it. Does anyone who has this set also have a PS move and Killzone 3? If you do, I'd love to hear if it feels fairly 1:1 as it does on my S1 when I play. If so I'd inch the ST60 more into the buy it & try it column.

Also, David Mackenzie of HDTV test has now weighed in over at HDJ insider thread about the lag issue. He did mention it to some Panasonic engineers and seems to think it is an issue worth being addressed. I'm hoping that just maybe this can lead to at least an attempted fix via firmware.
Source? That would be really cool.
Edited by mrkdilkington - 5/4/13 at 10:23am
post #450 of 1308
What a disappointment this TV was.

I purchased it after seeing the glowing reviews online for it and its predecessors (admittedly not doing as much research as I should have), and now I'm going through the return process with Amazon.

In terms of input lag, it's crazy how much of a step down this is from my 5 year old Panasonic plasma that this was supposed to replace. The fact that the input lag is far worse than the lower (S60) model is just the icing on the cake... The picture quality is excellent, but the input lag is highly noticeable in games for me, to the point where it's just not worth keeping.

Going to keep an eye out for a VT50/60 instead I guess...
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