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Official ST60 input lag thread - Page 17

post #481 of 1308
Wow.. this input lag is definitely discouraging... now I don't know what TV to get to replace my old LG plasma...

Is the GT50 any good for gaming?
post #482 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoob1.0 View Post


Is the GT50 any good for gaming?

I'm happy with mine apart from the whacky gamma tracking in game mode. And you definitely have to use game mode if you want low lag.
post #483 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

I'm happy with mine apart from the whacky gamma tracking in game mode. And you definitely have to use game mode if you want low lag.

Are you able to turn on Motion Smoother (frame interpolation) on game mode? I like the effect for certain things - especially CGI.
post #484 of 1308
Thread Starter 
No, and Motion Smoothing doesn't really do anything for non DVD/BD material. I've tried it on a 30 fps game, Assassin's Creed 3 on PS3, and it still looked like 30 fps.
post #485 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

No, and Motion Smoothing doesn't really do anything for non DVD/BD material. I've tried it on a 30 fps game, Assassin's Creed 3 on PS3, and it still looked like 30 fps.

wow really??
I thought frame interpolation worked on any source material- video games or cable TV.
post #486 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

No, and Motion Smoothing doesn't really do anything for non DVD/BD material. I've tried it on a 30 fps game, Assassin's Creed 3 on PS3, and it still looked like 30 fps.

Don't know about 30fps games but the setting definitely impacts cable sources
post #487 of 1308
Greetings!

First post here; shame it has to be on this particular subject frown.gif

Count me as at least one of those guys that is now on the fence with the ST60 based on what I've read here and elsewhere. I'm looking to replace an 8 year old DLP set with something a little nicer. I set my budget at $1500 max and this WAS the choice initially. I'm not a huge gamer, but when I'm into it, I'm into it all the way (little OCD here...). I play primarily driving/racing sims, but the kids and I will rock Ratchet and Clank when the mood strikes us. I'm to the point where I'm ready to walk into Best Buy with my go-to games and say "hook up a PS3 and let's see what happens - if I don't feel the lag, I'll buy it right now...". Seriously, that might be my next step. I've looked at the 65S64 at Sam's, but 65" is just too big - sweet spot is 55-60 right now. Not thrilled with the LED options in my price range currently; there are some I dont hate, but I'd rather go plasma if I could.

This has been educational if nothing else - I do hope Panasonic makes and effort to rectify the problem regardless of whether I end up with one or not. It's too good a set to have this kind of issue IMO.

I may just take try to test it in the store. The biggest problem I foresee is that they've got it hooked up to this special 3-D kiosk and I'm not even sure they could get to the inputs. Everyone I've talked to there is obviously unaware of the issue, so it might be a tough sell. Still, money talks - if I break out the Visa and put it on the table and basically say "put up or shut up" will they bite? Maybe not on a Saturday afternoon, but on a Tuesday?

Should be interesting smile.gif
post #488 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Don't know about 30fps games but the setting definitely impacts cable sources

I tried it on youtube videos and the setting, even on strong, was barely noticeable compared to any 24p film content from a BD or DVD on strong. I also tried other streaming videos and it made little to no difference, though you could see it kick in every now and then but it wasn't constant. Odd about that. I wonder what triggers it, because it was quite obvious the videos were still 24 to 30 fps and AC3 was still 30 fps and did not look smooth at all. I play tons of 60 fps games so I'd easily be able to see it working on a 30 fps game.

stumper, you said kids, so does that mean any Wii, PS Move, or Kinect games? The lag on the ST60 is going to be noticeable on games that will track your hand or body movements. It's noticeable when using a mouse and PC, so I would take a pretty educated guess that it's going to be a similar experience on anything that tracks body movement.

I wonder what the lag is on your DLP. If it's high, and everyone is happy with it, then the ST60 may still be ok. Are you able to hook up a PC to your DLP? If so, try just moving the mouse around on the screen and seeing if it's pretty responsive or if it feels like it's trailing behind your hand movements. If it feels responsive, it may be ok with lag, if it feels like it trails, then that's how the ST60 will feel. The next easiest way to test is to clone output on a low lag display and your DLP, and move a window up and down. If the DLP's window movements tend to trail behind a bit, then that is how the ST60 will be. My recommendation is that if everyone is happy on your DLP and it's laggy, then go for the ST60 because it won't be much different. But if your DLP is responsive and fast, then it's going to be mostly noticeable on motion control games and classic games like Wii Virtual Console games and the like.
post #489 of 1308
I Currently game on a Samsung 720p dlp and I don't notice any lag (Xbox, ps3,wii u)
post #490 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoob1.0 View Post

I like the effect for certain things - especially CGI.

This surprises me, since a lot of what fools the eye into thinking CGI is real are things like motion blur.
post #491 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoob1.0 View Post

Are you able to turn on Motion Smoother (frame interpolation) on game mode? I like the effect for certain things - especially CGI.

Not for the GT50. It's game mode is a standalone preset, unlike the 2013 models which can have game mode applied to any of the picture settings.
Interpolation will always result in a degree of lag, so having interpolation applied to game mode is counterintuitive.
post #492 of 1308
At long last, I was finally able to bring my system into my local Video Only and hook it up to a 55ST60 and experience the input lag for myself. The specific equipment used here was a PS3 slim (not the super slim), HDMI straight into HDMI 2 input, wireless controller and 3 games to represent 3 genres of games. Killzone 3 for shooters, SSF4 for fighting, and God Of War : Ascension for action/platforming. All the same sections were played again on my Panasonic S1 as soon as I got home so I could compare, and those comparisons are shared as well.

I loaded everything up, and after detecting a new tv, asking about the resolution and asking about the size of the tv for 3D gaming purposes, it was ready to go. I chose the Cinema" setting, like I do with my S1. I immediately noticed the input lag just on the PS3 menu...there was a very noticeable delay when going through the XMB menu options. I got the remote and proceeded to find the "game" mode and enable it to on. That made a noticeable difference and it felt much more like the quick response I get at home. So far so good. I popped in Killzone 3 first and loaded up "Chapter 2 Evacuation Orders : Dead End". I did the analog stick flick test, and I could feel the lag as it moved just a bit after you could hear the audible click of the stick. I did this many times to really get a feel for the total lag. When I went home and tested the same section on my S1, it was faster...but honestly only by a hair. The only other difference I noticed was that if I flick the stick on the ST60, the cursor will seem to "jump" to its new spot where as on the S1 I can actually see the quick motion of the cursor moving there. Not sure why or if it has to do with lag or not, it could be I'm just not used to gaming on a 60 inch TV as far as my eyes following everything. Anyways, if all I did was look for lag I'd have been disappointed, but there's a game to be played so I started actually playing it. Once I got into it a bit the lag felt OK. Like I said, just a hair slow and sluggish, but overall the more I played, the more I adjusted.

Then I tried SSF4. Very strange that I expected this one to be the worst of the bunch since it was a fighter, but it was actually the best! Felt basically just like on my S1. Press a button for quick punch, he punches. Quickly. Timing was the only difference I noticed. I tried to pull off a few dragon punches in the store, but I didn't get many of them to work. At home it was 100% every time. So there IS a difference there, but for me it was all feel and timing and not really noticeable.

Last up was GOW. I loaded up an early section, "The Guardtower" and played it. I expected this one to go smooth as well, but it didn't feel very responsive. Everything seemed very slow. However when I tested the same section at home it felt pretty slow too so basically I just picked the wrong section to test unfortunately. On both TV's it seemed identically slow.

In summary, I thought I would either be saying "OMG this is unplayable" or "OMG, what a non issue". I'm still kinda in between, but leaning closer to buying the set. Honestly overall outside of game mode it's unplayable, but in game mode it's just a hair slower than what I'm used too and I'll have to ponder it a bit more. I think the reason SSF4 felt fine was probably something to do with the 60FPS the game runs at. So whoever said 60FPS games were fine, but 30FPS would be noticeable, you hit the nail right on the head.

Oh, and this is the first time I got to see real content on an ST60 in person. It all look gorgeous!
post #493 of 1308
Excellent feedback. Those are the same type of games I would be playing as well. It's one thing to have numbers thrown at you, but it's good to hear some actual feedback from playing the games yourself. I can't wait for my 100 hours to be up. I'm thiiiiis close from finishing AC3.
post #494 of 1308
Hello everyone.

I purchased my 60ST60 yesterday from Best Buy. It has the most gorgeous picture I've seen on a TV.

Anyway, I had went in planning to buy the Sony W802A, but the manager at Best Buy talked me out of it and talked me into the 60ST60, despite plasma being iffy for gaming (which is what i mostly do on a TV).

I really don't think he was wrong, because he said he could find me a much better set with similar features that was bigger and cheaper.

It wasn't until I got home that I noticed the input lag. Well, to be honest, I didn't notice it until I started reading up on it. All that said, I've messed with the settings and turned off every feature I can think of while in game mode and it's somewhat better in ways.

BUT, I can't help but think that VieraConnect and the home menus running in the background are eating up part of the processing that could be used to reduce input lag.

Keep in mind I'm not a big TV expert, but as laggy as VieraConnect is, and with no way to turn it off, there's no way to know for sure if it is (or isn't) taking up resources.

Would a FW update from Panasonic potentially fix this issue (like to disable VieraConnect completely) that seems to be the only downfall of this otherwise near-perfect television?
post #495 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post

At long last, I was finally able to bring my system into my local Video Only and hook it up to a 55ST60 and experience the input lag for myself. The specific equipment used here was a PS3 slim (not the super slim), HDMI straight into HDMI 2 input, wireless controller and 3 games to represent 3 genres of games. Killzone 3 for shooters, SSF4 for fighting, and God Of War : Ascension for action/platforming. All the same sections were played again on my Panasonic S1 as soon as I got home so I could compare, and those comparisons are shared as well.

I loaded everything up, and after detecting a new tv, asking about the resolution and asking about the size of the tv for 3D gaming purposes, it was ready to go. I chose the Cinema" setting, like I do with my S1. I immediately noticed the input lag just on the PS3 menu...there was a very noticeable delay when going through the XMB menu options. I got the remote and proceeded to find the "game" mode and enable it to on. That made a noticeable difference and it felt much more like the quick response I get at home. So far so good. I popped in Killzone 3 first and loaded up "Chapter 2 Evacuation Orders : Dead End". I did the analog stick flick test, and I could feel the lag as it moved just a bit after you could hear the audible click of the stick. I did this many times to really get a feel for the total lag. When I went home and tested the same section on my S1, it was faster...but honestly only by a hair. The only other difference I noticed was that if I flick the stick on the ST60, the cursor will seem to "jump" to its new spot where as on the S1 I can actually see the quick motion of the cursor moving there. Not sure why or if it has to do with lag or not, it could be I'm just not used to gaming on a 60 inch TV as far as my eyes following everything. Anyways, if all I did was look for lag I'd have been disappointed, but there's a game to be played so I started actually playing it. Once I got into it a bit the lag felt OK. Like I said, just a hair slow and sluggish, but overall the more I played, the more I adjusted.

Then I tried SSF4. Very strange that I expected this one to be the worst of the bunch since it was a fighter, but it was actually the best! Felt basically just like on my S1. Press a button for quick punch, he punches. Quickly. Timing was the only difference I noticed. I tried to pull off a few dragon punches in the store, but I didn't get many of them to work. At home it was 100% every time. So there IS a difference there, but for me it was all feel and timing and not really noticeable.

Last up was GOW. I loaded up an early section, "The Guardtower" and played it. I expected this one to go smooth as well, but it didn't feel very responsive. Everything seemed very slow. However when I tested the same section at home it felt pretty slow too so basically I just picked the wrong section to test unfortunately. On both TV's it seemed identically slow.

In summary, I thought I would either be saying "OMG this is unplayable" or "OMG, what a non issue". I'm still kinda in between, but leaning closer to buying the set. Honestly overall outside of game mode it's unplayable, but in game mode it's just a hair slower than what I'm used too and I'll have to ponder it a bit more. I think the reason SSF4 felt fine was probably something to do with the 60FPS the game runs at. So whoever said 60FPS games were fine, but 30FPS would be noticeable, you hit the nail right on the head.

Oh, and this is the first time I got to see real content on an ST60 in person. It all look gorgeous!

Good stuff..

I think you're about to pull that trigger soon.. cool.gif
post #496 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hongo View Post

Hello everyone.

I purchased my 60ST60 yesterday from Best Buy. It has the most gorgeous picture I've seen on a TV.

Anyway, I had went in planning to buy the Sony W802A, but the manager at Best Buy talked me out of it and talked me into the 60ST60, despite plasma being iffy for gaming (which is what i mostly do on a TV).

I really don't think he was wrong, because he said he could find me a much better set with similar features that was bigger and cheaper.

It wasn't until I got home that I noticed the input lag. Well, to be honest, I didn't notice it until I started reading up on it. All that said, I've messed with the settings and turned off every feature I can think of while in game mode and it's somewhat better in ways.

BUT, I can't help but think that VieraConnect and the home menus running in the background are eating up part of the processing that could be used to reduce input lag.

Keep in mind I'm not a big TV expert, but as laggy as VieraConnect is, and with no way to turn it off, there's no way to know for sure if it is (or isn't) taking up resources.

Would a FW update from Panasonic potentially fix this issue (like to disable VieraConnect completely) that seems to be the only downfall of this otherwise near-perfect television?

FIrst of all, I doubt there will be a FW upgrade, so if it actually bothers you, I'd recommend exchanging the TV. But keep in mind that this TV will still have lower input lag than most if not all LED/LCD TVs on the market, so whatever you do, DO NOT exchange it for an LED TV, it will be the worst decision you've ever made once you bring it home. After you see a high quality plasma picture, anything else is far inferior.
post #497 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hongo View Post

Hello everyone.

I purchased my 60ST60 yesterday from Best Buy. It has the most gorgeous picture I've seen on a TV.

Anyway, I had went in planning to buy the Sony W802A, but the manager at Best Buy talked me out of it and talked me into the 60ST60, despite plasma being iffy for gaming (which is what i mostly do on a TV).

I really don't think he was wrong, because he said he could find me a much better set with similar features that was bigger and cheaper.

It wasn't until I got home that I noticed the input lag. Well, to be honest, I didn't notice it until I started reading up on it. All that said, I've messed with the settings and turned off every feature I can think of while in game mode and it's somewhat better in ways.

BUT, I can't help but think that VieraConnect and the home menus running in the background are eating up part of the processing that could be used to reduce input lag.

Keep in mind I'm not a big TV expert, but as laggy as VieraConnect is, and with no way to turn it off, there's no way to know for sure if it is (or isn't) taking up resources.

Would a FW update from Panasonic potentially fix this issue (like to disable VieraConnect completely) that seems to be the only downfall of this otherwise near-perfect television?

I havent tried gaming on this tv yet, but in my experience if you are really into gaming, and call of duty , you may want to look at a smaller lcd for serious gaming, and use your plasma for singleplayer games. 60 " is a huge area for your eyes to cover when playing a multiplayer game. I may be crazy, but I used to play on my Panasonic 50 inch gt25, which has super low input lag, but on a whim I tried out a 32 inch lg ln5300 which was 349, its has great contrast, no blurring , low input lag, and i play so much better I believe due to the smaller size of the screen. Also, to what you said above, if you didnt notice the input lag until reading about it, its a non issue. Most led tv's are in the 50 ms range for input lag, some slightly lower, and some alot higher , so when you game online, most people are going to have laggy tv's, laggy internet, etc. The reason this is talked about so much is because Panasonic has always been one of the lowest input lag tv's out there, this year that is not the case, so everyone that was banking on buying this tv, is disappointed to see the number is higher. If you go to a larger led tv, ev en if the input lag is lower, these tv's usually have quite a bit of blurring when movement gets fact, so if you are trying to aim your coursor quickly and there is screen blur, this delays your aim as well.
post #498 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jabolino View Post

But keep in mind that this TV will still have lower input lag than most if not all LED/LCD TVs on the market, so whatever you do, DO NOT exchange it for an LED TV

That's not really true. Plenty of LED/LCD have very low input lag. Just do some research first.
post #499 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucknuts07 View Post

60 " is a huge area for your eyes to cover when playing a multiplayer game.
It's all dependent on your viewing distance, not the screen size. Keep that in mind. If you had a harder time on your GT25, it's because you were simply sitting too close.
post #500 of 1308
I have been following this thread ever since my trusty old RPTV set (Hitachi 57F500A) suffered a DVI port failure, putting me in the market for a new display. I consider myself a casual gamer, but I do care about having the best possible play experience, so I was concerned when I heard about the input lag issue. Most of my gaming on the Hitachi has been on Xbox 360, and lately on PC since I did some upgrades to my HTPC. I like RPGs and action-adventure games, flight sims, and single-player FPS. Anyway, I went into my local BB and asked for (and received) permission to bring in my Xbox to do a little testing. (And kudos to BB for that, Sears just said no right off the bat.)

I did NOT do any kind of in-depth, methodical testing, so I apologize if this doesn't meet with AVSF standards. I just hooked up the console and played a few minutes with Arkham Asylum, Skyrim and Bioshock 2, being pretty typical of the kinds of games I like to play. In all honesty, if there was controller input lag, I couldn't detect it, either on gaming mode or cinema. So I'm going to go forward with the purchase, I think...as soon as I can find one. Nobody in the Southeastern US seems to have this unit in-stock; even Amazon was telling me today it's on back-order.
post #501 of 1308
Thread Starter 
All those are pretty laggy games to begin with, so if you feel ok on that, then I would say enjoy the set.

I'm not sure what kind of input lag a CRT RPTV might have, but I feel kinda bad for you lol, CRT is just so good in so many ways. Can't you simply get a new DVI adapter and desolder the old one and solder on the new one?

BTW everyone, DisplayLag has updated their database with the Samsung 2013 models.

http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/#participants-list

The F5500 is pretty low, now I wish I checked one out when I had a chance.
post #502 of 1308
The repair shop I called quoted $400 for a board replacement. I've nothing but love for the old set, but frankly, it's too big for the living room, depth-wise. It's time to go slim.
post #503 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by qvad00 View Post

The repair shop I called quoted $400 for a board replacement. I've nothing but love for the old set, but frankly, it's too big for the living room, depth-wise. It's time to go slim.

Yep - about time wink.gif
post #504 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

The F5500 is pretty low, now I wish I checked one out when I had a chance.
But...the annoying pentile display...
post #505 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

But...the annoying pentile display...

Supposedly only the 60 inch has it, not the 51 or 65. Would be nice if someone double checked. Oh well.
post #506 of 1308
If links are allowed...this was interesting and on the topic of input lag...

http://www.displaylag.com/introducing-2013s-best-hdtvs-for-gaming-part-1/
post #507 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

All those are pretty laggy games to begin with, so if you feel ok on that, then I would say enjoy the set.

I'm not sure what kind of input lag a CRT RPTV might have, but I feel kinda bad for you lol, CRT is just so good in so many ways. Can't you simply get a new DVI adapter and desolder the old one and solder on the new one?

BTW everyone, DisplayLag has updated their database with the Samsung 2013 models.

http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/#participants-list

The F5500 is pretty low, now I wish I checked one out when I had a chance.

That is wild looking at that link as i was just about to ask you if you had looked at the F8500 which the 51" has been on sale around 1500, pricier i know but at least for me its crossed my mind multiple times as its within my range as compared to the +2000 VT60 which yea its 55" but its too expensive for me, and I'm a little irked there is no GT60, i currently have a GT50 that i bought on sale for 999 months ago (its now back down to 999 at best buy as well) and when i saw the expectations for 2013 i said let me not even unbox this TV in case i want to swap return it, a GT60 was my main interest and i kept waiting for word on it and also waiting to see that at least the ST60 had its input lag fixed, any way fast forward a couple months and I'm sitting around trying to decide what the best option is and HATING how forced my hand is feeling, and i for the last couple weeks have kept going back to maybe i need to just go with the F8500 and i see that link and that it has high 50-mid 60ms input lag, better but i guess still not ideal.That kind of limits me again, i know i would rather the GT50 by far above the f5500 which just didn't look to great to me in Sears or my local AV store, I don't want to keep arriving back at the GT50 but every other option seems to be getting struck down and with them i get more disappointed there is no GT60, i know i should just enjoy this and not be any the wiser, but its not my nature.
post #508 of 1308
Another thing to remember is that the F8500 only gets its 63-64ms of lag time if you use the PC input trick of renaming the input. Which also gives you not such a great PQ. The thing with the ST60 (and the other 2013 Pannys) is that they let you keep most of the picture quality and the same picture modes while simply enabling "game" mode. The F8500 looks really nice, probably great with games, but the only way to get even that lag time will basically kill the PQ.
post #509 of 1308
Interesting to note on that database as well...of all the sets from all those manufacturers, even LCD's and LED's...only TWO of them have input lag as high or higher than the ST60. And yet still it's being touted as some sort of average display lag from some folks.

I've now read yet 2 more complaints about the input lag (on forums this time). I have to think they will at least know this is an issue sooner or later if this keeps up, especially on places like Amazon reviews and such.
post #510 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by thestumper View Post

Greetings!

First post here; shame it has to be on this particular subject frown.gif

Count me as at least one of those guys that is now on the fence with the ST60 based on what I've read here and elsewhere. I'm looking to replace an 8 year old DLP set with something a little nicer. I set my budget at $1500 max and this WAS the choice initially. I'm not a huge gamer, but when I'm into it, I'm into it all the way (little OCD here...). I play primarily driving/racing sims, but the kids and I will rock Ratchet and Clank when the mood strikes us. I'm to the point where I'm ready to walk into Best Buy with my go-to games and say "hook up a PS3 and let's see what happens - if I don't feel the lag, I'll buy it right now...". Seriously, that might be my next step. I've looked at the 65S64 at Sam's, but 65" is just too big - sweet spot is 55-60 right now. Not thrilled with the LED options in my price range currently; there are some I dont hate, but I'd rather go plasma if I could.

This has been educational if nothing else - I do hope Panasonic makes and effort to rectify the problem regardless of whether I end up with one or not. It's too good a set to have this kind of issue IMO.

I may just take try to test it in the store. The biggest problem I foresee is that they've got it hooked up to this special 3-D kiosk and I'm not even sure they could get to the inputs. Everyone I've talked to there is obviously unaware of the issue, so it might be a tough sell. Still, money talks - if I break out the Visa and put it on the table and basically say "put up or shut up" will they bite? Maybe not on a Saturday afternoon, but on a Tuesday?

Should be interesting smile.gif

Thats amazing i had no clue such an animal existed, did they make one in 2012 or was it just the s50 and ut50 last year, anyway i do see that the panasonic website mentions a 50" model of the S64, although that is just below your sweet spot, amazing price for a 65" though especially with a filter although its the infinite black vs. the infinite black pro. Anyone have experience with how much of a difference the lack of the FFD makes, i know there isn't a huge difference going from 2500 FFD to 3,000 but haven't explored this side of it. thanks
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