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Official ST60 input lag thread - Page 21

post #601 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by sealteamz6 View Post

Okay ,I game via a PS3, occasionally and xbox 360 and I also have my PC connected and I game with that via things like steams big picture mode.

I am strongly considering ordering the 60 inch ST60. Is the input lag going to be noticeable and make gaming unenjoyable? there seems to conflicting statements regarding that on here. I could care less about what the scientific tests and all that say even though I highly value science. The reason I dont care is because I just want to know if its noticeable and or if it will make gaming not very fun.

I dont play retro games so i dont care about that. I basically play only modern games

And if this tv is a no go because of its bad gaming performance what tv would people recommend as a replacement? It seems to me for the price you can't find a better picture quality.

I used to have a TH-42PZ700U and I never really noticed any gaming issues with it per say. However, I am not sure it had lag issues

On another note it seems as though these apparent lag issues are more noticeable on games that are running at 30fps or less versus ones that are running at 60 or more. If there is really not much if any noticable lag on games running 60 or more than for me and even many others the lag doesn't seem like a huge issue. I can easily throw in a new GPU for 200 replacing my already great gigabyte 560ti

Not to mention with the next gen consoles coming out within the next year this is another reason it seems like less of an issue. I would assume that games will be running more along the lines of 60fps than 30fps.

In the end people need to focus only on perception. I don't care about what machines tell me about the lag. All I care about is it noticeable.

I'm a pretty avid gamer and play most genres except for sports. So far in my month of owning my ST60 I have not noticed it on most games that I have played on it. Even shooters have played great, I just played through Resident Evil Revelations on my X360 a couple days ago and I spent 8 hours playing Dead Island Riptide on my X360 today (I kept going "one more side-quest", heh) and did not notice it *at all*. Unless you're used to playing on a really, really low latency display then it's likely you won't notice it on most *modern* games.

I will say though that Mega Man 9 felt a little sluggish on my PS3, but that's probably more due to the problem with PS3 controllers having some noticeable lag if you don't plug a cord into them.
post #602 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiveOhFour View Post

Cool its good to hear a positive experience, for me its the PQ for the money but also the size for the money I mean a 60" or 65" basically vs a 50" F8500. I am kinda nutty enough to go for a 50" with stellar display vs a 65" with stellar but not as stellar display. 😜

What games do you spend most of your time playing, I am mostly into various FPShooters right now so I tend to think that would lessen the severity.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I mostly play a combination of games. I usually play pc. Fps, action.adventure games. Rts.
post #603 of 1308
I can purchase the st50 for 250 dollars cheaper than the st60. From what I've heard the st60 sounds like the better buy even though its 250 more. Does anyone have any input on this?
post #604 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfoh View Post

I will say though that Mega Man 9 felt a little sluggish on my PS3, but that's probably more due to the problem with PS3 controllers having some noticeable lag if you don't plug a cord into them.

PS3 controllers do not lag. It's been scientifically tested.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiveOhFour View Post

Moonchilde! Wow have I missed out on some happenings in my absence. You went for an F8500 huh, wow man I was seriously leaning that way until I read the displaylag websites report that it too has horrible lag. How is it comparatively, I saw katzmeir (sp?) tested the ST60 with a Bodnar and got nearly the same exact result as others which is nice to see the consistency in that method vs. high speed camera tests. Anyway, what are your thoughts and impressions, how is it for gaming in its own right and comparatively and of course how is it in all matters PQ in comparison to the ST60. Yes I'm on amazon already.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Well, I couldn't get a VT60 with a trade in of my ST60. The F8500 was available. Plus, the F8500 was like, 55 ms for PC mode vs VT60's 47 ms for Game mode. Not a big enough difference for me to care, so it boiled down to the PQ at that point. The new sub-pixel structure of the F8500, the minimal ABL, and the superior 3D swayed me to it over looking for a VT60. I'm glad I chose it, because I don't get any line bleed on this set, it behaves exactly like my CRT with the exception of the input lag. Plus, there is no hope for firmware updates from Panny but there is hope for custom firmware on the F8500.
post #605 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sealteamz6 View Post

I can purchase the st50 for 250 dollars cheaper than the st60. From what I've heard the st60 sounds like the better buy even though its 250 more. Does anyone have any input on this?

The ST50 has a great picture and half the input lag. The ST60 has a better picture and twice the input lag. That's really what it boils down to.
post #606 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

PS3 controllers do not lag. It's been scientifically tested.

They do have a small amount, Sony themselves even admitted this when they went into how they're designing the PS4 controller to hopefully eliminate it.
post #607 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfoh View Post

They do have a small amount, Sony themselves even admitted this when they went into how they're designing the PS4 controller to hopefully eliminate it.

You misunderstanding what they're talking about.

The PCB in the PS3 controller does not lag when you press a button. It's been tested scientifically, the wireless does not lag.

What you read about the PS4 controller was that the PS3 controller is all analog .So that means there are 1024 steps from on to off. So the PS3 has to have additional programming to see what step the button press is at, but no games make use of the analog controls so it's just extra overhead. For games with a lot of processing going on, such as post effects and all that, it can add extra lag. For games that are not having a bunch of extra post going on, there won't be any additional lag. For what it's worth, the PS2 controller was designed the same exact way, it's 100% analog for everything. It's how MGS on the PS2 was able to tell if you were pressing the button soft or hard, and letting go of the button softly was how you dropped your gun without shooting.

The PS4 controller is going to be mostly digital. This means the buttons now will be either off, or on. It only has 2 states instead of 1024, so there will be a little less overhead for games that are processing intensive.

It has nothing to do with the actual controller itself, the controller itself is not causing any lag in wireless mode nor is it any slower than a standard PS2 controller or any other controller for that matter.
post #608 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfoh View Post

I will say though that Mega Man 9 felt a little sluggish on my PS3, but that's probably more due to the problem with PS3 controllers having some noticeable lag if you don't plug a cord into them.

PS3 controllers do not lag. It's been scientifically tested.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiveOhFour View Post

Moonchilde! Wow have I missed out on some happenings in my absence. You went for an F8500 huh, wow man I was seriously leaning that way until I read the displaylag websites report that it too has horrible lag. How is it comparatively, I saw katzmeir (sp?) tested the ST60 with a Bodnar and got nearly the same exact result as others which is nice to see the consistency in that method vs. high speed camera tests. Anyway, what are your thoughts and impressions, how is it for gaming in its own right and comparatively and of course how is it in all matters PQ in comparison to the ST60. Yes I'm on amazon already.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Well, I couldn't get a VT60 with a trade in of my ST60. The F8500 was available. Plus, the F8500 was like, 55 ms for PC mode vs VT60's 47 ms for Game mode. Not a big enough difference for me to care, so it boiled down to the PQ at that point. The new sub-pixel structure of the F8500, the minimal ABL, and the superior 3D swayed me to it over looking for a VT60. I'm glad I chose it, because I don't get any line bleed on this set, it behaves exactly like my CRT with the exception of the input lag. Plus, there is no hope for firmware updates from Panny but there is hope for custom firmware on the F8500.

no man that's good I'm very interested to hear your decision process. If I'm not asking to much what size did you get and what did it set you back, now I'm considering this more than ever, I really liked the idea of a ST60 and especially a 60" but for the F8500 a 50" is Alll I can afford but it may well be worth it. I do recall when I first began inquiring about the f8500 instead of ST60 someone quickly shot my hopes down explaining that there was some issues/less than desirable something that occurred on the Samsung(s)
When used in PC mode but I don't know what it was, I will look for the reply though, are you familiar with what they may have been speaking of? The custom firmware is pretty intriguing as well. Most importantly man congrats on a bad ass TV that you are able to be happy with.

Random question for anyone who has the answer? Did the 2012 ST50 and or GT50 have swiveling base on any or all sizes? I've read many reviews that say no but someone is claiming theirs does and before I get righteous I wanted to verify if I was getting bad info from reviews. Thanks

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
post #609 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiveOhFour View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfoh View Post

I will say though that Mega Man 9 felt a little sluggish on my PS3, but that's probably more due to the problem with PS3 controllers having some noticeable lag if you don't plug a cord into them.

PS3 controllers do not lag. It's been scientifically tested.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiveOhFour View Post

Moonchilde! Wow have I missed out on some happenings in my absence. You went for an F8500 huh, wow man I was seriously leaning that way until I read the displaylag websites report that it too has horrible lag. How is it comparatively, I saw katzmeir (sp?) tested the ST60 with a Bodnar and got nearly the same exact result as others which is nice to see the consistency in that method vs. high speed camera tests. Anyway, what are your thoughts and impressions, how is it for gaming in its own right and comparatively and of course how is it in all matters PQ in comparison to the ST60. Yes I'm on amazon already.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Well, I couldn't get a VT60 with a trade in of my ST60. The F8500 was available. Plus, the F8500 was like, 55 ms for PC mode vs VT60's 47 ms for Game mode. Not a big enough difference for me to care, so it boiled down to the PQ at that point. The new sub-pixel structure of the F8500, the minimal ABL, and the superior 3D swayed me to it over looking for a VT60. I'm glad I chose it, because I don't get any line bleed on this set, it behaves exactly like my CRT with the exception of the input lag. Plus, there is no hope for firmware updates from Panny but there is hope for custom firmware on the F8500.

no man that's good I'm very interested to hear your decision process. If I'm not asking to much what size did you get and what did it set you back, now I'm considering this more than ever, I really liked the idea of a ST60 and especially a 60" but for the F8500 a 50" is Alll I can afford but it may well be worth it.
Check out the S60/S64
post #610 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

The ST50 has a great picture and half the input lag. The ST60 has a better picture and twice the input lag. That's really what it boils down to.

How much better is the picture on the ST60? Im pretty torn right now. It doesn't sound like for me the lag will be an issue. but i do have my pc connected to my tv so its important in a way i guess. I suppose I can always order the tv off amazon and if its something I go man I cannot live with this I can go ahead and return it. The only fear with that is I would assume that I would have to pay a ton of money for return shipping and whatnot???
post #611 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by sealteamz6 View Post

How much better is the picture on the ST60? Im pretty torn right now. It doesn't sound like for me the lag will be an issue. but i do have my pc connected to my tv so its important in a way i guess. I suppose I can always order the tv off amazon and if its something I go man I cannot live with this I can go ahead and return it. The only fear with that is I would assume that I would have to pay a ton of money for return shipping and whatnot???

Read their return policy and it will tell you.
post #612 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by sealteamz6 View Post

How much better is the picture on the ST60? Im pretty torn right now. It doesn't sound like for me the lag will be an issue. but i do have my pc connected to my tv so its important in a way i guess. I suppose I can always order the tv off amazon and if its something I go man I cannot live with this I can go ahead and return it. The only fear with that is I would assume that I would have to pay a ton of money for return shipping and whatnot???

If input lag is not a concern, then ST60 all the way - no contest biggrin.gif
post #613 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu_One View Post

If input lag is not a concern, then ST60 all the way - no contest biggrin.gif

+1
post #614 of 1308
I'm looking at the 60st60 and I'm wondering if I'll see the input lag while gaming? I'm coming from a 2004 Panny 42px500U.

Should I look at the 60s60?

Thanks,

Court.
post #615 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwmcln View Post

I'm looking at the 60st60 and I'm wondering if I'll see the input lag while gaming? I'm coming from a 2004 Panny 42px500U.

Should I look at the 60s60?

Thanks,

Court.
It's not something you really see, per-se, but what you feel, when playing games. Most of the pre-smart TVs have very low input lag, but I can't find any numbers on your old set. See if you can try both the S60 and ST60 out in-store to see which performs better for you.
post #616 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hearzy View Post

Read their return policy and it will tell you.

The seller doesn't have a return policy listed and while amazon has one they state that it inevitably falls back on what the seller wants to do
Edited by sealteamz6 - 5/27/13 at 11:57am
post #617 of 1308
Okay, full confession: I havent read this whole 21 page thread, and I didnt really understand all the numbers and figures in the first post, but I did see this tv at best buy and it does look fantastic. In fact, Best Buy is sold out till July because they claim that it gets sold out the second it gets shipped to the store. So everyone there is raving about it.

Now I play videogames on my 360 occasionally, like 2 a year and I only play first person shooter games. Is this input lag REALLY that big a deal, or is it something only super hardcore gamers going to notice? And how is this lag only an issue with this series on all of this year's panasonic models and not on any of the other series, the zt60, the vt60 or the s60?
post #618 of 1308
Thread Starter 
If you're not a gamer you won't notice. It's nearly double on this set this year because they put in a very slow processor to handle the imaging and smart apps. It simply can't do it all.
post #619 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ou8thisSN View Post

Okay, full confession: I havent read this whole 21 page thread, and I didnt really understand all the numbers and figures in the first post, but I did see this tv at best buy and it does look fantastic. In fact, Best Buy is sold out till July because they claim that it gets sold out the second it gets shipped to the store. So everyone there is raving about it.

Now I play videogames on my 360 occasionally, like 2 a year and I only play first person shooter games. Is this input lag REALLY that big a deal, or is it something only super hardcore gamers going to notice? And how is this lag only an issue with this series on all of this year's panasonic models and not on any of the other series, the zt60, the vt60 or the s60?

The best thing to do is buy the tv and see if you end up doing worse in your games. That's what I plan to do when I buy the 50ST60 next week. If there is any noticeable lag I will return it and buy the Sony W802a, which only records 6 ms of input lag. But I would find it most likely that I wll be keeping the ST60.
post #620 of 1308
I ordered the 60ST60 today for 1650 off amazon. I wish I could aquire it in stores for the same price. Granted I did not actually go to any stores and look. But being in WA with a more or less 10% sales tax I cant imagine finding the tv and not having to pay over 1650. Maybe I should have made some calls.

After reading this forums it sounds like the ST60 isnt as perfect as places like CNET made it out to be. However Cnet seems reputable to me. That and for all the crap talking ive seen about CNET and the negatives i have read about the ST60 no one seems to be able to recommend a better option in terms of a 60 inch for the same price. I keep seeing people recommending the 8500 or VT series. Well I dont wanna spend that much money on a TV nor is it logical for me to do so. The negative aspects some people have reported have me on edge. But at the same time I just haven't seen anyone suggest a better option. And there will always be those who will find faults in something. And its highly likely the majority of people who post are those with the bad experiences versus the multitudes of those with great ones. I bought two EPIK legend subwoofers. I had trouble pulling the trigger for a long time because of the negative reviews I read regarding the amps going bad and the iffy CS. I went ahead and bought them last november and they have been awesome. (knock on wood) but anyways after that I never bothered to continue looking or commenting on the speaker forums of this site because I was satisfied. Most people only who are happy with a product never leave reviews or go on forums to tell everyone that they like it cause they just dont care enough to take the time to do so they would rather just enjoy their product.

The other issue I see is there is too much sciencey and non sciencey stuff going on on this thread that its hard to distinguish between the two. I love the science and appreciate those who take the time to engage in it. But I think most of the people coming on here, reading this, then asking about the input lag like me just wanna know if its noticeable to the average person whether they game a lot or not versus the OCD or picky person.

Anyways I will test it out and if it turns out I notice the Input lag I will take the loss and return it and find something better.
post #621 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Did you ever look into the S64?
post #622 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Did you ever look into the S64?

I searched for it on amazon and didnt come up with anything so at that point I just dismissed it. Lazy I know but Im not really sure where to get it from

I just checked. looks like its available only from costco? for how much? and how does it compare to the ST60?

I saw people talking about it being a canada thing which is another reason why is kinda ignored it

It appears as though its a non 3D tv. nonetheless I am still curious how it compares in terms of picture quality I cant say I care that much about 3D but at the same time it sounds like it may be fun. Like for example playing video games in 3D which i heard can be pretty awesome

The costco website states the S64 is 1400. So with tax in WA that would probably be about 1540-1550. Only 100 dollars less than the ST60. Granted you get 5 more inches of screen. How much i would actually care about 5 more inches of screen in the room I am in I do not know

My seating arrangements at the moment are about 8 feet from the television. I do not see that space increasing anytime within the next several years
Edited by sealteamz6 - 5/27/13 at 10:41pm
post #623 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Did you ever look into the S64?
It's amazing how many people are glossing over the S60/S64 models, when they arguably present a better deal than even the ST60.
post #624 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

It's amazing how many people are glossing over the S60/S64 models, when they arguably present a better deal than even the ST60.

I personally feel it does offer a better value than the ST60. From what I've seen, it can be just as accurate as the ST60, you can get larger sizes for the same amount of money and it is more responsive than the ST60. The 3D on the ST60 isn't really worth the upgrade IMO, as it's behind just about every other set when it comes to 3D this gen, and even last gen. The only thing missing from the S64/60 at that point is 96 Hz and the 10 point gamma, which at this point is irrelevant because of it throwing off the calibration for other points on the scale. So if you're basically stuck with 2 point gray scale, then the only thing missing is the 96 Hz and 3D.

If I wasn't going to be able to get the F8500, I would have picked up a S60.
post #625 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

I personally feel it does offer a better value than the ST60. From what I've seen, it can be just as accurate as the ST60, you can get larger sizes for the same amount of money and it is more responsive than the ST60. The 3D on the ST60 isn't really worth the upgrade IMO, as it's behind just about every other set when it comes to 3D this gen, and even last gen. The only thing missing from the S64/60 at that point is 96 Hz and the 10 point gamma, which at this point is irrelevant because of it throwing off the calibration for other points on the scale. So if you're basically stuck with 2 point gray scale, then the only thing missing is the 96 Hz and 3D.

If I wasn't going to be able to get the F8500, I would have picked up a S60.

I definitely would not purchase an S60. The glare problems sound to extreme for me and glare is one thing that has always really bothered me on tvs. plus one side of our room is all windows.

Why do you not feel the 3D is worth it? Also cant you basically play any console game and turn it into 3d?

I have heard the ST60s 3D is not where it should be in terms of quality. But I have also heard its not bad. I guess I agree right now that 3D isnt a huge issue for me. However, I plan on keeping whatever TV I buy for like 5 years at least. By then 3D will probably be pretty huge. I agree the S64 is a better deal. But when 3D becomes big a few years down the road and probably will blow up a lot when the new consoles get released I dont wanna be stuck without 3D for another few years. I mean I dont wanna have to upgrade again within the next few years. I bought my old panny plasma for 1600 and was only able to sell it for 400. So if i upgraded in a few years I would probably get boned in terms of resale value....just some thoughts
post #626 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

I personally feel it does offer a better value than the ST60. From what I've seen, it can be just as accurate as the ST60, you can get larger sizes for the same amount of money and it is more responsive than the ST60. The 3D on the ST60 isn't really worth the upgrade IMO, as it's behind just about every other set when it comes to 3D this gen, and even last gen. The only thing missing from the S64/60 at that point is 96 Hz and the 10 point gamma, which at this point is irrelevant because of it throwing off the calibration for other points on the scale. So if you're basically stuck with 2 point gray scale, then the only thing missing is the 96 Hz and 3D.

If I wasn't going to be able to get the F8500, I would have picked up a S60.

How is 10 point gamma, 10 point greyscale and partial cms irrelevant ? You can definitely get a more accurate calibration. Those controls are responsible for the smaller gap between the ST and VT this year.
post #627 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

How is 10 point gamma, 10 point greyscale and partial cms irrelevant ? You can definitely get a more accurate calibration. Those controls are responsible for the smaller gap between the ST and VT this year.

I thought it was common knowledge that the 10 point gamma on this generation of Panny isn't working properly? It makes calibration using it a huge PITA. Plus, the S60/64 also has the partial CMS. So that's why the ST60's additional features are pretty much irrelevant at this point.
post #628 of 1308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sealteamz6 View Post

I definitely would not purchase an S60. The glare problems sound to extreme for me and glare is one thing that has always really bothered me on tvs. plus one side of our room is all windows.

Why do you not feel the 3D is worth it? Also cant you basically play any console game and turn it into 3d?

I have heard the ST60s 3D is not where it should be in terms of quality. But I have also heard its not bad. I guess I agree right now that 3D isnt a huge issue for me. However, I plan on keeping whatever TV I buy for like 5 years at least. By then 3D will probably be pretty huge. I agree the S64 is a better deal. But when 3D becomes big a few years down the road and probably will blow up a lot when the new consoles get released I dont wanna be stuck without 3D for another few years. I mean I dont wanna have to upgrade again within the next few years. I bought my old panny plasma for 1600 and was only able to sell it for 400. So if i upgraded in a few years I would probably get boned in terms of resale value....just some thoughts

But here's the thing. The 3D on the ST60 isn't top notch. So, you're spending money for a feature that isn't going to be performing optimally and when 3D becomes more common, it won't be as enjoyable an experience.
post #629 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

I thought it was common knowledge that the 10 point gamma on this generation of Panny isn't working properly? It makes calibration using it a huge PITA. Plus, the S60/64 also has the partial CMS. So that's why the ST60's additional features are pretty much irrelevant at this point.
Big difference between not working properly and finicky, it is the same issue as the VT30's two years ago doesn't mean it can't be dialed in tho, opinions vary on the effectiveness of the controls obviously, Hopefully you aren't basing that on CNET those guys are not good calibrators. Also 10 point gamma is not the same things as 10 point wb are you saying both of those controls are broken ? the lack of an ar filter is a huge downside imo
post #630 of 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ou8thisSN View Post

Okay, full confession: I havent read this whole 21 page thread, and I didnt really understand all the numbers and figures in the first post, but I did see this tv at best buy and it does look fantastic. In fact, Best Buy is sold out till July because they claim that it gets sold out the second it gets shipped to the store. So everyone there is raving about it.

Now I play videogames on my 360 occasionally, like 2 a year and I only play first person shooter games. Is this input lag REALLY that big a deal, or is it something only super hardcore gamers going to notice? And how is this lag only an issue with this series on all of this year's panasonic models and not on any of the other series, the zt60, the vt60 or the s60?

Everyone will have a different tolerence for input lag. I can flat out tell you that to me , the input lag is too much to game on. Call of duty is functionable, however it feels sluggish, like your running, and aiming under water. Its really a shame as this tv puts out a beautiful picture. If gaming will be a function of this tv, I would either go up to the vt, or buy a small monitor, or 32 inch led with low input lag to game on. The lg ln5300 is a great gaming tv. 32 inch, $349. Just my opinion
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