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Official Panasonic VT60/VT65 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 35

post #1021 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Peake View Post

When you guys are old and dying in your beds, do you think you will say to yourselves, "man I wish I would have argued with more people on the internet about tvs when I was young" ?

Hilarious-
I laughed out loud when I read this.
post #1022 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Leave Ken alone. It's ok if his tastes are a bit different and he'd trade some PQ to avoid some ABL. If you are worried about reviews reflecting his tastes you'll also find them in the minority so don't feel misrepresented. There's always going to be the dissenting minority.

Take it up a level and pdp is the dissenting minority too wink.gif

I agree and disagree here Mo. Many here are defining PQ by one parameter and one parameter only, MLL. I could certainly see if one panel had lousy black levels and the other really great ones, then that's certainly a rationale for going with the lowest MLL, the choice becomes easy. But here we have one panel with a great MLL and the other with a 'greater' MLL. So it's not as if you're 'stuck' with poor blacks. Your 'stuck' with excellent blacks, just not the very best available this year. Keep in mind that in the last couple of years, up to 2012, the 8500 would have been defined as having the best blacks. Every review I've seen on the 8500 talks about how great the blacks are, even if not class-leading.

But now we move on to the impact of ABL. I absolutely, positively, feel that IS a very important aspect of PQ. If my picture is throttled back on every scene that requires a significant percentage of the screen to be illuminated (sky, ice etc), then that is most definitely, IMO, taking a hit in PQ. I've seen it often and find it very significant...far more observable in terms of magnitude and frequency than I had thought. Add to that, this impact, as opposed to the impact of MLL, can be seen in any lighting environment, from bat cave to bright room.

I understand that some people either aren't bothered by it or simply don't believe it's as significant as I think it is. Each to his own.

So my point is that if you've got a couple of panels tightly bunched in the MLL category, but those same panels are much more widely separated in the ABL category, I'd lean toward taking a slight hit in MLL for the sake of restoring my picture's brightness in the many scenes where that kind of brightness is called for. To me, taking such a big hit in the ABL arena is taking a hit in the PQ category.

It really surprises me that more people don't see the big difference in scenes like this. IMO, it's so easily observable and the gap is far wider than the gap in MLL.

With that said I'm still waiting to see if the ZT60 combines the best of both worlds. Perhaps a less aggressive ABL? I'm not counting on it, but I'll remain hopeful until the shootout. smile.gif
post #1023 of 14006
^^^^^

Well maybe many are like me Ken and have not own anything but plasma and that's all we know whereas you owned a leading LED and plasma simultaneously.
post #1024 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by skoor View Post

Ken, why don't you just go ahead and get an F8500. Try it for 14/30 days and report to us your long term experience.

Every major review as clearly said the Panasonic's set have overall better PQ and rate them higher than the Samsung. And ever review had said this Samsung is better for bright rooms. It seems pretty clear- you prefer the a brighter, less ABL picture. Some of us just have difference preference that perhaps just happen to be the mindset of the major reviewer too. You have stated your view and we clearly understand it. It is getting kind of old to hear it over and over again. We get it.

Thanks

Skoor, the answer is simple, because I'm not an advocate of the 'try & return' approach. Since I'm going to the shootout, I'll see these panels properly calibrated side by side. Then I'll make my decision.

As for reviews, professional or otherwise, reviewers don't seem to factor in the impact of aggressive ABLs on bright scenes and don't factor it in to their PQ assessments. It's their right, but I totally disagree. If one turns a blind eye to how a display depicts bright scenes (regardless of ambient lighting conditions), to me that's ignoring a significant percentage of material that's available.

This has nothing to do with the lighting environment the display is in. It is only a function of the APL of the scene and the impact can be seen in any lighting. It seems to me that many people mistake the display requirements for viewing in a bright environment to how a display depicts bright scenes. It can be two totally different things. I was in a very dim section of Magnolia yesterday and a not overly bright scene resulted in very significant differences in how that scene was depicted.
post #1025 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I agree and disagree here Mo. Many here are defining PQ by one parameter and one parameter only, MLL. I could certainly see if one panel had lousy black levels and the other really great ones, then that's certainly a rationale for going with the lowest MLL, the choice becomes easy. But here we have one panel with a great MLL and the other with a 'greater' MLL. So it's not as if you're 'stuck' with poor blacks. Your 'stuck' with excellent blacks, just not the very best available this year. Keep in mind that in the last couple of years, up to 2012, the 8500 would have been defined as having the best blacks. Every review I've seen on the 8500 talks about how great the blacks are, even if not class-leading.

But now we move on to the impact of ABL. I absolutely, positively, feel that IS a very important aspect of PQ. If my picture is throttled back on every scene that requires a significant percentage of the screen to be illuminated (sky, ice etc), then that is most definitely, IMO, taking a hit in PQ. I've seen it often and find it very significant...far more observable in terms of magnitude and frequency than I had thought. Add to that, this impact, as opposed to the impact of MLL, can be seen in any lighting environment, from bat cave to bright room.

I understand that some people either aren't bothered by it or simply don't believe it's as significant as I think it is. Each to his own.

So my point is that if you've got a couple of panels tightly bunched in the MLL category, but those same panels are much more widely separated in the ABL category, I'd lean toward taking a slight hit in MLL for the sake of restoring my picture's brightness in the many scenes where that kind of brightness is called for. To me, taking such a big hit in the ABL arena is taking a hit in the PQ category.

It really surprises me that more people don't see the big difference in scenes like this. IMO, it's so easily observable and the gap is far wider than the gap in MLL.

With that said I'm still waiting to see if the ZT60 combines the best of both worlds. Perhaps a less aggressive ABL? I'm not counting on it, but I'll remain hopeful until the shootout. smile.gif

I think that when looking at a bright scene it's in human nature to kind of squint, turn away, shield their eyes, or whatever. Now with a dark scene/scenario the human response is to focus, gaze, stretch the eyes to focus on & try to pick up more information. There is no need to do that in a bright scene, because everything is illuminated, sometimes it's illuminated to the degree of discomfort. I know this isn't the reason for abl, but it's still human nature. So, abl isn't a major issue to most because with brightly lit scenes you can process the information that is on the screen. However when the screen is black, you are more focused & process at a higher degree, so you notice more information. That is why people tend to focus more on mll then abl, imho.
post #1026 of 14006
OK. Many of you have finally convinced me of two things; Cnet is being run by Dr. Evil, and I must wait for the New Pioneer Kuro sets to arrive in the stores.wink.gif
post #1027 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

^^^^^

Well maybe many are like me Ken and have not own anything but plasma and that's all we know whereas you owned a leading LED and plasma simultaneously.

Yup, I think you could be 100% correct Glashub. I think if you've only been exposed to plasma, you really don't know what increasing the top end of a display's dynamic range can do to the reality of brighter scenery. It was very eye-opening (no pun intended wink.gif) when I was able to view the same material on both my Kuro 151 and my Elite for about a month.

Likewise, if you've only had a run-of-the-mill LED, you can't appreciate what deep black levels can do for the picture. I try to get as much of both as possible. When it comes to displays, I'm very greedy by nature. smile.gif
post #1028 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadett View Post

I think that when looking at a bright scene it's in human nature to kind of squint, turn away, shield their eyes, or whatever. Now with a dark scene/scenario the human response is to focus, gaze, stretch the eyes to focus on & try to pick up more information. There is no need to do that in a bright scene, because everything is illuminated, sometimes it's illuminated to the degree of discomfort. I know this isn't the reason for abl, but it's still human nature. So, abl isn't a major issue to most because with brightly lit scenes you can process the information that is on the screen. However when the screen is black, you are more focused & process at a higher degree, so you notice more information. That is why people tend to focus more on mll then abl, imho.

I understand what you're saying, but I disagree. One of the scenes I saw yesterday was a battle scene with about 40-50% of the scene taken up by an overcast sky. As soon as that overcast sky took up a significant percentage of the screen, the VT60 throttled back in a big way. So much so, that I thought the realism of the scene was totally compromised. The 8500 was, if I had to guess, at least 2X as bright in that area. There was nothing 'eye searing' about the depiction of the sky on the 8500 and you were never tempted to squint. It simply looked more believable IMO.
post #1029 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

OK. Many of you have finally convinced me of two things; Cnet is being run by Dr. Evil, and I must wait for the New Pioneer Kuro sets to arrive in the stores.wink.gif

They'll be arriving together with the new Sharp Elites. biggrin.gif
post #1030 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

They'll be arriving together with the new Sharp Elites. biggrin.gif

Never say Sayōnara to them, or in Sharp's case should I spell it; Cyanora?!biggrin.gif
post #1031 of 14006
Aaaaannnnd! Mine is bigger than yours, brighter than yours, blacker than yours, better than yours, sexier than yours, bigger than yours, blacker, brighter, sexier, blacker, bigger, bigger, bigger, biiiiiigger..... la la la la la la 🎵 🎶🎵
post #1032 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I understand what you're saying, but I disagree. One of the scenes I saw yesterday was a battle scene with about 40-50% of the scene taken up by an overcast sky. As soon as that overcast sky took up a significant percentage of the screen, the VT60 throttled back in a big way. So much so, that I thought the realism of the scene was totally compromised. The 8500 was, if I had to guess, at least 2X as bright in that area. There was nothing 'eye searing' about the depiction of the sky on the 8500 and you were never tempted to squint. It simply looked more believable IMO.

What are you disagreeing with? Seems to me you just like to argue. You should get if a wife.(Assuming you don't have one). I didn't say the Panny was better than the Sammy. I think that it has been stated over a hundred times now that the Sammy is ideal for bright rooms. Infact, the Sammy's have been brighter than the Panny's since 2008 when Samsung started actually producing a plasma set that was capable of even being compared to a Panasonic. I was just explaining my opinion on why I think people tend to focus on darker scenes vs lighter scenes. If you want to disagree with that peep out the window & stare at the sun & come holler back cool.gif
Edited by cadett - 5/7/13 at 7:27am
post #1033 of 14006
So I have been in the same boat as Tarheel worrying about fan noise, buzzing, and IR all prior to receiving my 65" VT60 yesterday though I'm only about 700ft above sea level.

I turned the TV on and it is definitely a noticeable whir with the fans being on. I'd say it's on par with an Xbox. It was concerning to me as I was going through the initial setup because I started to focus on it and was already planning the return/exchange of the TV should it get louder, etc. After the initial setup I put it in THX Cinema mode and threw the Blu-ray of Bolt in my PS3.

HOLY CRAP were the first words out of my mouth as well as my wife's. I can't believe I waited this long to get a Plasma. Now the TV it was replacing is very nice (Sony 52" XBR HX909) and I thought that had a clear smooth picture.

Anyway, once there is even slight volume from my receiver/speakers then I can't hear the fans. I sit about 9-10ft away from the screen.

I also threw in The Dark Knight rises and watched the Bane fight scene underground and there is such amazing detail. You can see the water running down the crevices of his body armor. I did decide to run the break-in slides while I'm at work because it can't hurt and it gets me to a calibration sooner.

None of the universal wall mounts at best buy worked, any suggestions?
post #1034 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

^^^^^

Well maybe many are like me Ken and have not own anything but plasma and that's all we know whereas you owned a leading LED and plasma simultaneously.
I owned an LCD, and I don't miss it (minus the power savings).
post #1035 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadett View Post

Seems to me you just like to argue.
"My impression is more correct than yours" does come to mind here as the anecdotes then follow.
Edited by vinnie97 - 5/7/13 at 7:16am
post #1036 of 14006
Is this the VT60 discussion thread?
post #1037 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Never say Sayōnara to them, or in Sharp's case should I spell it; Cyanora?!biggrin.gif

Oooo, not nice greenland, not nice. biggrin.gif
post #1038 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

Is this the VT60 discussion thread?

What's that?
post #1039 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

Is this the VT60 discussion thread?

Ive wondered the same thing about other threads sometimes....hopefully the owners wil take "control" again wink.gif
post #1040 of 14006
My two cents on my VT60 experience.

Was bouncing around between the S60, ST60 and the VT60. Wanted the ST60 but the input lag was a deal breaker for me and didn't want to compromise PQ by going the S60 or the S64 from Costco so opted for the VT60 (I know it's a big step up). I have decent light control in my room so didn't need the brighter screen of the F8500 and viewing angle performance was also important to me.

Ordered the 60VT60 from Cleveland Plasma at a decent price. Was willing to do a Saturday delivery which was also great. Delivery guys let me unbox the TV and turn it on to ensure that everything was in working order though one guy was a bit pushy to leave than the other but as goes with the territory. Looked over the TV and almost flawless.

Not sure if this is being picky but there is barely noticable hairline scratch on the top left hand corner of the TV. Definitely a surface scratch and not a crack. It's on the portion of the TV that doesn't display the picture and is actually difficult to find even with a flashlight. You have to aim the flashlight at an angle to see it. I can't see it at all without a flashlight and during normal viewing. Personally I don't think it's worth returning the TV just for that and since it's not a crack and it isn't going to spread out to the rest of the TV so I'm keeping it. Please let me know if I'm not in my right mind on this.

Other than that the TV looks unfreakingbeliveably awesome. This is coming from a Samsung LN-S 4096D 40" LCD. Everything is definitely noticably better from PQ to blacks than my old set and 20" larger. I know this TV has the AR filter but I can definitely still see reflections of my overhead lights and would severely bother me if I did not have decent light control in the room (windows to the side have blinds and I can dim my lights down). I don't see how I would have been happy at all with the S60 without the AR filter.

In terms of the fan hum/buzzing sounds I didn't even notice it until I started running the slides. Didn't notice it while viewing various trailers and the Africa blu-ray. Definitely hear it more on the whiter slides and I can hear it upwards of 15 feet away but it doesn't bother me. The fridge behind me in the other room is louder if I step back beyond 15 feet and my HTPC fans are actually louder than the TV ones.

My one grip though and maybe someone can help me out with this, I get flickering sometimes when I'm using the TV on my HTPC. It seems to flicker when I view certain webpages which I find incredibly odd. It even seems browser specific. If I view a specific webpage on Firefox it'll flicker but on IE it doesn't. Sometimes I get it with content as well that I watch on my HTPC via XBMC. I didn't have this problem at all on my old TV. I was thinking it could be because my TV is set to 60 hz but it's grayed out for me so I can't adjust it.

In short, love the TV. Unless someone tells me that hairline scratch is going to be a problem in the future, I'm going to be keeping this set. Currently running slides and at the 35 hour mark.
post #1041 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by laakness View Post


None of the universal wall mounts at best buy worked, any suggestions?
monoprice.com
post #1042 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadett View Post

What are you disagreeing with? Seems to me you just like to argue. You should get if a wife.(Assuming you don't have one). I didn't say the Panny was better than the Sammy. I think that it has been stated over a hundred times now that the Sammy is ideal for bright rooms. Infact, the Sammy's have been brighter than the Panny's since 2008 when Samsung started actually producing a plasma set that was capable of even being compared to a Panasonic. I was just explaining my opinion on why I think people tend to focus on darker scenes vs lighter scenes. If you want to disagree with that peep out the window & stare at the sun & come holler back cool.gif

You missed my point. I never said you claimed one panel was better than the other, I was discussing ABL behavior. Period. I'm saying the impact of ABL can be seen in the darkest of rooms to the brightest of rooms. It has little to do with ambient lighting conditions and it's greatly minimizing the concept to equate it to 'stare at the sun'. The scene I was talking about was an overcast day, not a sunny day and hardly a 'really bright scene'.

Oh well...and yes I'm married and we get along fine thank you. Tolerance of other opinions doesn't seem to be very rampant in Panasonic threads. smile.gif
post #1043 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

"My impression is more correct than yours" does come to mind here as the anecdotes then follow.

Well interpretation is in the eye's of the beholder. The problem is, the beholder always feels the need to be right about what is being processed, even though the interpretation is simply a manifestation of what the mind interprets in terms of what is being projected onto the eye. So, if you have a dark mind you need more light output to breakthrough the darkness biggrin.gif
Just kidding, all this mll abl apl talk just make me miss the NFL & I get crazy. I'll stop carping up the post. Just needed to have a little fun.
post #1044 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

You missed my point. I never said you claimed one panel was better than the other, I was discussing ABL behavior. Period. I'm saying the impact of ABL can be seen in the darkest of rooms to the brightest of rooms. It has little to do with ambient lighting conditions and it's greatly minimizing the concept to equate it to 'stare at the sun'. The scene I was talking about was an overcast day, not a sunny day and hardly a 'really bright scene'.

Oh well...and yes I'm married and we get along fine thank you. Tolerance of other opinions doesn't seem to be very rampant in Panasonic threads. smile.gif

Okay. Maybe I was being a little extreme after all this is a discussion thread & not an owners thread, but my opinion still stands. However if all sets are calibrated to 40fl & then they are compared what would the outcome be? Guess we'll have to wait & see...
post #1045 of 14006
Am I the only one who likes to watch sports on TV with the sound off, because I can not stand all the constant chatter from pairs of chatterboxes who are explaining to us what we are looking at. How on earth do people who attend the games in person ever manage to follow the game they are at without having two guys, and some sideline airheads, over explaining everything?!

So, not having loud humming noises or fan noises is a major requirement for me. Does that rule the VT series out for me?
post #1046 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadett View Post

What are you disagreeing with? Seems to me you just like to argue. :

I have been through this throughout all forums and websites about his opinion on tv's.....just let it go it's not worth your time.

I will be looking forward to judging the new panny's and other sets at VE's shootout Friday evening.Looks to be exciting. Plasma has been my first choice for tv's, Kuro owner and several panny plasmas throughout family and friends on my recommendations, but I am interested in seeing the Sony 4K set that will be there. Robert does have a ZT60 that he personally picked up so that will be kool too.
post #1047 of 14006
I have no objections to what Ken Ross has to say on any of the threads. He contributes a lot of information which I find very helpful. It does not bother me if he ends up holding some different opinions than I have. I see no need for people to start ganging up on him. If he bothers someone too much, then they should use the ignore option.
post #1048 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Am I the only one who likes to watch sports on TV with the sound off, because I can not stand all the constant chatter from pairs of chatterboxes who are explaining to us what we are looking at. How on earth do people who attend the games in person ever manage to follow the game they are at without having two guys, and some sideline airheads, over explaining everything?!

So, not having loud humming noises or fan noises is a major requirement for me. Does that rule the VT series out for me?

I wouldnt say rules out, just becasue we have differing reports of how sever the noise is. Going to a store wouldnt do any good as the ambient noise level would probably drown out anything that you may hear at home. There seem to be many factors involved when it comes to these noises, everything from distance from the TV to your sensitivity to these sounds. The only real way to test is to take it home and test it, if it doesnt work hopfully you choose a place with a good return policy.
post #1049 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

Is this the VT60 discussion thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

So, not having loud humming noises or fan noises is a major requirement for me. Does that rule the VT series out for me?
It seems hit and miss, my 60" vt60 is really quiet, nor disceranble buzz or hum.
post #1050 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

I have no objections to what Ken Ross has to say on any of the threads. He contributes a lot of information which I find very helpful. It does not bother me if he ends up holding some different opinions than I have. I see no need for people to start ganging up on him. If he bothers someone too much, then they should use the ignore option.

Lets say you walk into a Toyota dealership & start explaining to the them how you prefer a Honda Accord & give all the pluses that it has over the Camry. Then when the salesperson starts explaining the pluses of the Camry, you cut him off & tell him he's not looking at all the details & start ranting again on the same info you just stated. What is the point in this? What are you trying to prove? If you like the Accord so much, why don't you just go buy one. There's no need to be primitive. We're past that. We have options. Make a choice & be okay with it. Don't try to make the opposition feel bad about their preference, because of you don't like it. I shouldn't have to ignore. You should "move on to the Honda dealership & boast your mpg's over there". If you get my drift. In other words, expect a fight.
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