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Official Panasonic VT60/VT65 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 115

post #3421 of 14006
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Outputting multi channel audio from any external source, like a DVR or disk player, is not permitted for copy-write reason.

Yet DVRs, disk players, streamers, etc have optical and/or coax digital outputs for lossy multichannel audio (DD5.1 and DTS) that are used alongside their HDMI outputs for video. Letting a TV pass those formats for HDMI devices over digital or ARC would confer no new capabilities, so I don't see why it would be a copyright issue. It's not like they actively prevent it, either, because it's possible to do it by faking EDID information on a PC. Here's a message from a guy who says his 2012 LG will pass 5.1 audio from his cable box and Xbox attached via HDMI:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1091403/edid-override-thread/2370#post_22729030
I agree but who said it had to make sense? biggrin.gif

It doesn't have to make sense, but it at least needs to be true. Is LG breaking the law in 2012 per the guy in that message I linked to? Was Sony breaking the law in 2008 with my W4100 that would pass DD5.1 from HDMI devices? ISTR that it passed DD5.1 but wouldn't even play DTS through its own speakers, which meant I couldn't use it as a switch and had to run S/PDIF from my devices to the HDMI-less receiver I had at the time, which really ticked me off. There are a bunch more positive reports for this capability starting here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1389050/tvs-with-5-1-passthrough-from-hdmi-to-spdif#post_21537237

If you keep reading that thread, you'll find the initial strong skeptics came around, particularly after one found his Sony TV has the capability for both DD5.1 and DTS, a later model than mine BTW. I think the most that can be said about this subject is, "Some TVs do it, others don't, and no one knows why."
This isn't a topic I've ever followed, but I am aware that some owners can be confused between identifying a signal from their TV to an AVR if the AVR has the ability to simulated surround sound from a stereo source.

Well, now you've been presented with a lot of statements from multiple people who contradict you, including skeptics who proved themselves wrong in threads dedicated to this subject. Your information must be pretty solid to suggest all these people may have misinterpreted their AVRs' indicators, but you haven't even offered where you got it from.
Quote:
I suppose one way to collect valid data would to complain to all the major TV manufacturers and see how they reply. Given a Blu-ray player connected to the TV with HDMI that only produces stereo audio through the TV's optical output -- why no surround sound?

I wouldn't expect to get any "valid data" out of contacting TV manufacturers concerning why they do or don't support something.
post #3422 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

@CSIG1001, define purer whites. D65 is the white point used in the rec.709 triangle... both the VT60 and F8500 can achieve this. The F8500 is simply capable of a brighter white. So no, the VT60's whites are not brown, and no the calibrators did not claim the F8500 has better whites.

You make it seem like the F8500 is equal or better than the VT60 in every way... if that were the case, why do you think the VT60/ZT60 won in the eyes of calibrators? It's because the VT60/ZT60 is bright enough for their theater environments, and they had slightly better color and black levels/contrast. The F8500 won the audience votes simply because it was brighter. Calibrate the F8500 to the same brightness as the VT60/ZT60 and it would be a different story.

And yes the difference between 0.0017fL and 0.0013fL MLL is detectable in a dark room (although admittedly it's a fairly small difference). But the F8500 floats blacks so the gap in black levels/contrast increases as the APL (average picture level) increases.

With that all said, both sets are very good and it depends on your room conditions and preferences. If it's going in a very bright room or you prefer LCD level brightness, go with the F8500. If it's going in a light controlled room, the VT60 is the better performer.

yes true. The f8500 black levels are likely closer to .003 and .004 with content as that is what they black boxes measure when any white boxes are on the screen - which puts it closer to a Vt30 ( a couple year old display) in terms of black performance.
post #3423 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

They all push DD but some are DD2.0 and some are DD5.1.
Yes thanks. I meant to ask if there was a particular known title that pushed 5.1. I just joined Netflix and can't seem to find any indications in the title descriptions themselves. I'd like to test one with known 5.1 push on my system. Also, wondering why you used the optical out vs. HDMI Audio Return Channel (assuming your Onkyo supports this)?
Edited by kimolaoha - 7/16/13 at 11:32am
post #3424 of 14006
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Just to add, I will say this as I have said it before...

The VT60 is capable, once properly calibrated, of putting out an extremely natural, film-like image when viewing quality source material. In the limited time I have owned the display since getting it calibrated, I have watched several movies (in a dark room, of course - the only way to do this) that looked like projected film. I am talking about rock solid, stable, deep blacks with great shadow detail and rich, well saturated colors with an image that looks non-processed and "organic" in general.

The F8500 is not quite capable of matching the VT60 for this "look" in my opinion for several reasons that I have touched upon before.

For film enthusiasts, in the proper set-up and environment, the VT60 is superior.

X1000..
Looks like the Samsung troll is at it again. He trys so hard to convince everyone why his F8500 is superior, to the point of nauseum.
post #3425 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimolaoha View Post

Yes thanks. I meant to ask if there was a particular known title that pushed 5.1. I just joined Netflix and can't seem to find any indications in the title descriptions themselves. I'd like to test one with know 5.1 push on my system. Also, wondering why you used the optical out vs. HDMI Audio Return Channel (assuming your Onkyo supports this)?
I have a Yamaha with ARC. ARC is finicky and provides no value other than saving you from running an optical cable. I already had one and unlike ARC it works properly all the time.
Are you using the Netflix built into your tv? There should be a description that tells you if it is HD and 5.1.
post #3426 of 14006
How do I change the setting to 96 hz for watching movies? Will that get rid of the blurred motion?
post #3427 of 14006
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Originally Posted by mack7 View Post

How do I change the setting to 96 hz for watching movies? Will that get rid of the blurred motion?

The option to change to '96 hz' will be displayed (not greyed out) when you're playing a 24p source (blu ray disc), at which point you can select it. Make sure your bluray player is set to 24p playback.
post #3428 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by defjamz View Post

X1000..
Looks like the Samsung troll is at it again. He trys so hard to convince everyone why his F8500 is superior, to the point of nauseum.

He cant make up this mind was once banned for being a Panny troll at least we are consistent smile.gif
post #3429 of 14006
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

Larry isn't new to calibration... he must have his reasons for calibrating to 26fL. 30-35fL isn't set in stone for a dark room, even though that's what I calibrate to as well.

Since gamma is a moving target on plasmas, I never understood why people insist on using such tiny windows. Even the calibrators at the shootout recommended standard 10-18% windows on the 2013 Panasonic plasmas. Plus Larry double checked using 10% APL patterns. Probably wouldn't have made a big difference either way.

What are you talking about, did you read the quote that I was replying to???.
There was nothing about what he was setting his light out put at, nor did I make reference to a dark room.

Of-course 30 to 35 FtL is not carved in stone, but it is a reference range for a VT60.

I am sure the guys that did the standard calibrated on the VT60 had there reasons for using a 10-18% window if in fact that is what they used . I disagree and have better success using a 2% non APL pattern window for the type of calibrations I do on my VT60, for the reasons that I have stated. That said it is important to pull your meter back to a point that your meter is reading inside the window about 95% of that window, also If my pattern generator had 5% window I would very much like to see the results from that size of window. .

Also could you please explain what you mean by Gamma is a moving target on Plasma's

ss
post #3430 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

I have a Yamaha with ARC. ARC is finicky and provides no value other than saving you from running an optical cable. I already had one and unlike ARC it works properly all the time.
Are you using the Netflix built into your tv? There should be a description that tells you if it is HD and 5.1.

Gotcha. But I can't seem to get the VT60 to push any 5.1 through the optical cable. I've just signed up for Netflix and will test this evening, but I have streamed several titles (Avengers, Hunger Games, etc. through the Viera app for Amazon Prime, and could not get 5.1 to push (even though playing the very same title from the TiVo did indeed push 5.1). I assumed ARC would allow this, but it sounds from your post that ARC adds no additional value if you already have pulled the optical cable from the VT60 to the AVR. I just want to stream Viera apps in multichannel and am wondering why I can't.
post #3431 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimolaoha View Post

Gotcha. But I can't seem to get the VT60 to push any 5.1 through the optical cable. I've just signed up for Netflix and will test this evening, but I have streamed several titles (Avengers, Hunger Games, etc. through the Viera app for Amazon Prime, and could not get 5.1 to push (even though playing the very same title from the TiVo did indeed push 5.1). I assumed ARC would allow this, but it sounds from your post that ARC adds no additional value if you already have pulled the optical cable from the VT60 to the AVR. I just want to stream Viera apps in multichannel and am wondering why I can't.
You never mentioned Amazon until now. You were asking about Netflix. When you are asking for help you should be specific.
post #3432 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony1 View Post


As im typing this im looking at the reflection of my recessed lights 30 watt bulbs (halfway dimmed), on the screen
of my GT50, while its on.. I believe the vt60's screen is just as reflective.. Theres a chance that when direct sunlight comes through his blinds (depending on location) that he will be staring
at his blinds when he looks into his screen..
The ZT60, which has the most effective filter of the 3 flagships, will reveal distracting reflections in the right environment.
post #3433 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by defjamz View Post

X1000..
Looks like the Samsung troll is at it again. He trys so hard to convince everyone why his F8500 is superior, to the point of nauseum.

If you don't have any useful comments to add other than to namecall (which is usually the case), you probably shouldn't be posting here. My comments are in no way
offending anyone here, and I do not own a samsung tv. It's TV for christ sake, its not your first born baby.. Get a grip.. There's a tiny possibility, that I might actually buy the VT60, I am posting my intial impressions of it, hoping to hear counterpoints from classy people such as Davidhr.. This thread is not meant for everyone to mindlessly praise their tvs, which would provide no help to anyone..
post #3434 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

You have to be smarter than the blinds and recessed lights when you place any tv.

The only other place i could of put the tv in that particular room would of been on the ceiling. Not sure how "smart" that would of been.. biggrin.gif
post #3435 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony1 View Post

The only other place i could of put the tv in that particular room would of been on the ceiling. Not sure how "smart" that would of been.. biggrin.gif

ROFL

Women love mirrors on the ceiling , The VT60 would be a good substitute for a mirror like reflection, especially over the bed. Dont get the ZT or F8500 it might make your silhouettes disfigured
post #3436 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimolaoha View Post

Gotcha. But I can't seem to get the VT60 to push any 5.1 through the optical cable. I've just signed up for Netflix and will test this evening, but I have streamed several titles (Avengers, Hunger Games, etc. through the Viera app for Amazon Prime, and could not get 5.1 to push (even though playing the very same title from the TiVo did indeed push 5.1). I assumed ARC would allow this, but it sounds from your post that ARC adds no additional value if you already have pulled the optical cable from the VT60 to the AVR. I just want to stream Viera apps in multichannel and am wondering why I can't.

That's because Panasonic's Amazon app is way behind the times. Myself, I didn't even evaluate its audio capabilities, because I couldn't get past its lack of support for the Watchlist. I learned from others it doesn't do 5.1. Netflix, however, does do DD5.1, and the TV will pass it over optical. Same for its OTA tuner and files on USB devices, for which it also supports DTS.
post #3437 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

The VT60 has a bit more deeper color saturation than the F8500. This was visually evident on a lot of content at the Shootout according to some people and the calibrators rated the VT60 higher in color, as well as contrast, blacks, and motion.

The Samsung whites are NOT cleaner, but the display can get brighter. "Clean whites" are a calibration matter...and you CANNOT base on this out-of-the-box settings (including THX modes) while looking at displays at Magnolia and then declare the VT60 is lacking like some people are mistakenly doing - this approach is greatly flawed not to mention very over-simplistic.

As far as blacks, there are notable differences actually. On an all black screen, the F8500 will be close, but as soon as there is any light in the image, things change as the floating blacks are very noticeable in a dark environment. They were evident even to my girlfriend who is not a video enthusiast. smile.gif I had both the F8500 and VT60 in my living room sitting next to each other for a week. See Zoyd's data which re-affirms what I am saying.

Ive stared at both sets numerous times in the larger models, but The only somewhat vaild viewing comparison i did between both the sets, were in bb. Where they had the vt60 55" and the f8500 51" next to each other, and both had the same movie trailer bluray playing.. The black levels were noticably better on the vt60 but you had to actually look hard for it. Where as to the detail and brightness of the picture
of the f8500 stood out without even looking for it.. There were 4 other consumers in that room and we were all in agreement.. From what i gathered it seems to the naked eye the samsung produces
a crisper picture, (some say due to the brightness and some say that samsung does a better job of cleaning up the source material). Iv'e been asking myself this.. whats more important? A tv that impresses me and all my guests or a tv that impresses someone in a lab, using a light meter watching the tv in total darkness.. I don't know if i'd be that sensitive to floating blacks, because i don't
even notice them on led. So, im assuming that the samsung would do that even less, no?
post #3438 of 14006
OK thanks for this. I had incorrectly assumed the same push capabilities from the two apps (Netflix and Amazon) since I get 5.1 from Amazon on other devices. Looking forward to testing the Netflix app tonight and will certainly be delighted if I get 5.1 from it.
post #3439 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony1 View Post

If you don't have any useful comments to add other than to namecall (which is usually the case), you probably shouldn't be posting here. My comments are in no way
offending anyone here, and I do not own a samsung tv. It's TV for christ sake, its not your first born baby.. Get a grip.. There's a tiny possibility, that I might actually buy the VT60, I am posting my intial impressions of it, hoping to hear counterpoints from classy people such as Davidhr.. This thread is not meant for everyone to mindlessly praise their tvs, which would provide no help to anyone..

Relax Tony, I wasn't talking about you...
post #3440 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

You never mentioned Amazon until now. You were asking about Netflix. When you are asking for help you should be specific.

Yep, my bad.
I may have indeed condemned the VT60's audio push capabilities in their entirety because of limitations within just one of its apps. But thanks for your help.
Maybe I don't need a new AVR with Audio Return after all, unless the new codecs alone are worth the cost of admission (versus those in my 10 year old Onkyo).
post #3441 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSIG1001 View Post

Even if the VT is calibrated it will not compare to the F8500 whites

and come on you watch the 2013 shootout? If the whites on the VT60 were normal then the F8500 would of lost. Ive owned both sets and the VT60 is a great set but not better!

quote from kevin miller


Written by Kevin Miller
Monday, 25 March 2013
Pros: Vastly improved black level and light output capability combine to deliver a dramatic increase in Contrast Ratio. The panel is processing RGB correctly going well below video black (16) and well above white (235), further improving contrast ratio. Video processing correctly handles 24p Blu-ray content at 96Hz, and also offers a Judder Corrector feature.


quote from chad B


Panel brightness low raises the black level and seriously degrades contrast ratio, so I tried calibrating the VT60 in panel brightness mid and finally in high. As in the 30 and 50 series, panel brightness mid is the best choice for an accurate image. It allows a moderately bright image that is adequate for up to a normal family room ambient light level. However, some viewers may prefer a brighter image, so I attempted to calibrate a Day mode with panel brightness set to high. High allows about a 33% boost in light output, though it causes serious white crush at and above 95% at any contrast setting that gives a light output above about 26 fL. The white crush in PB high was visible with real images, so I consider both PB high and low seriously flawed at this time. However, in 3D mode PB high does not crush white and is perfectly usable


How does the VT60 stack up against the Samsung F8500? If you like LED/LCD brightness levels, the F8500 is superior. It's peak light output is able to match many LED/LCD sets, and it's ABL circuitry is minimally invasive. Cranked up to full brightness, it could make the VT60 appear a bit muted in comparison. However, the VT60's black levels, especially in 96 Hz mode with Blu Rays, is visibly superior. Color is excellent on both, but with slightly different perspectives: the F8500's lower saturation color shades are a bit too pale, whereas the VT60's fully saturated colors are a bit too pale. While they err in different directions, it is very minimal. The F8500 may have a slightly sharper presentation, though I never felt the VT60 lacked in that regard.

I very much enjoyed my time viewing the VT60, though when I had the meters out I couldn't help but wish for the VT50's more reliable calibration characteristics. Every program material I threw it's way was handled with as much perfection and grace as I've seen on a plasma. I wouldn't hesitate recommending it to the vast majority of people who are passionate about picture quality.



btw i disagree with the black levels being visibly superior maybe because it is slightly lower but really distinguishable to the human eye no not really.
But i will leave it at that... going back to the F8500 forum

seeya

Yes we know you've owned both. And when you owned the VT, you dogged Samsung and said Panasonic was better. Then you flip.flopped, which you've been known to do, and now you're doing the opposite and dogging Panasonic because you own the Samsung. You expect people to take you seriously? Lol. Enjoy your unstable blacks and Samsung forum!
post #3442 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by jconjason View Post

Yes we know you've owned both. And when you owned the VT, you dogged Samsung and said Panasonic was better. Then you flip.flopped, which you've been known to do, and now you're doing the opposite and dogging Panasonic because you own the Samsung. You expect people to take you seriously? Lol. Enjoy your unstable blacks and Samsung forum!
Enjoy your washed out picture during the day and your brand new mirror that you can comb your hair in everyday before going to work. Oh ya make sure you spend at least 300.00 to get a non geek squad calibrator to fix those dirty whites
post #3443 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

What are you talking about, did you read the quote that I was replying to???.
There was nothing about what he was setting his light out put at, nor did I make reference to a dark room.
Why are you so defensive?

Just two posts from the post you quoted, Larry posted his calibration report, saying he targeted 26fL for his dark room. Maybe you missed it?
Quote:
Of-course 30 to 35 FtL is not carved in stone, but it is a reference range for a VT60.
Yes, but for some that will cause eye fatigue in a dark room. Apparently you missed his calibration post... I thought you were telling or suggesting that he targets 32fL or 35fL max. Again, he must have his reasons for calibrating to 26fL.
Quote:
I am sure the guys that did the standard calibrated on the VT60 had there reasons for using a 10-18% window if in fact that is what they used . I disagree and have better success using a 2% non APL pattern window for the type of calibrations I do on my VT60, for the reasons that I have stated. That said it is important to pull your meter back to a point that your meter is reading inside the window about 95% of that window, also If my pattern generator had 5% window I would very much like to see the results from that size of window. .
Yes window size or which patterns to use is subjective and dependent on model. Larry must have his reasons for using 10% windows.
And I believe 10-18% standard windows is what they recommended for the Panasonic plasmas (APL for the F8500). I'll see if I can dig it up.
edit: According to buzz that's what they recommended.
Quote:
Also could you please explain what you mean by Gamma is a moving target on Plasma's

ss
Because of the ABL, your gamma will change based on the APL.
Edited by rahzel - 7/16/13 at 12:18pm
post #3444 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony1 View Post

Ive stared at both sets numerous times in the larger models, but The only somewhat vaild viewing comparison i did between both the sets, were in bb. Where they had the vt60 55" and the f8500 51" next to each other, and both had the same movie trailer bluray playing.. The black levels were noticably better on the vt60 but you had to actually look hard for it. Where as to the detail and brightness of the picture
of the f8500 stood out without even looking for it.. There were 4 other consumers in that room and we were all in agreement.. From what i gathered it seems to the naked eye the samsung produces
a crisper picture, (some say due to the brightness and some say that samsung does a better job of cleaning up the source material). Iv'e been asking myself this.. whats more important? A tv that impresses me and all my guests or a tv that impresses someone in a lab, using a light meter watching the tv in total darkness.. I don't know if i'd be that sensitive to floating blacks, because i don't
even notice them on led. So, im assuming that the samsung would do that even less, no?

I agree the F8500 is sharper and has less dithering then the VT60 on both 65" tvs ive seen.
post #3445 of 14006
One lesson learned from owning just about every Oppo blu-ray player made so far is that the manufacturer does not always control what functionality their GUI has in regards to a certain providers like Netflix or Amazon. The first Oppo's to have Netflix had a very limited GUI compared to a Sony PS3 and did not have 5.1 audio capabilities. Before we throw Panasonic under the bus it would be good to know if the limitations (GUI and audio) are restricted by Amazon, etc.
post #3446 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSIG1001 View Post

Enjoy your washed out picture during the day and your brand new mirror that you can comb your hair in everyday before going to work. Oh ya make sure you spend at least 300.00 to get a non geek squad calibrator to fix those dirty whites

I watch the way most true enthusiasts do... Complete dark room. I have zero reflections and no washed out picture. Geek squad calibration? Only a fool would use those.

Troll, why are you still in this thread anyway? Crawl your way back to where you belong, troll. Oh and dont forget your meds!
post #3447 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by defjamz View Post

Relax Tony, I wasn't talking about you...

Ooops.. Sorry. biggrin.gif
post #3448 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by jconjason View Post

I watch the way most true enthusiasts do... Complete dark room. I have zero reflections and no washed out picture. Geek squad calibration? Only a fool would use those.

Troll, why are you still in this thread anyway? Crawl your way back to where you belong, troll. Oh and dont forget your meds!

I see you like to revert to name calling because you know the truth about your set and it offends you.
post #3449 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSIG1001 View Post

Enjoy your washed out picture during the day and your brand new mirror that you can comb your hair in everyday before going to work. Oh ya make sure you spend at least 300.00 to get a non geek squad calibrator to fix those dirty whites
So predictable no facts to back up any of your claims, the fact you buy top tier sets but are too cheap to get them calibrated speaks volumes. The fact is you understand little to nothing about calibration or picture quality or you wouldn't have been on here complaining about how zebras looked on your set. You buy a set steal some calibration settings or use an out of box mode and expect that to be sufficient but reality is every single tv manufactured can benefit from a calibration. You blindly input Kevin Millers settings but chances are your set is off in some major area because panels do vary but if you are content with that more power to you.

You wouldnt even be here if you were confident in the choice you have made, seeking validation ? Doubt if you get it here
post #3450 of 14006
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSIG1001 View Post

I see you like to revert to name calling because you know the truth about your set and it offends you.
What offends me is people like you that have no clue what you're talking about and try to spread itas truth. You've ripped apart the TV you now own, and now that you've purchased it, you say its the best. You have zero credibility here and most of the members here know this. You, troll, are nothing to me, i could care less about you. I will however, let people here know that the garbage that spews from your troll mouth, is just that, garbage.
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