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LG LW5600 - CMS - Certain Colors unadjustable

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
I am just trying some more calibrations on my LW5600 LED. Mainly to try and learn more. I have one done that I am fairly happy with, so just trying some different things on it.

I currently was trying the following: I achieved around 165-170 Cd/m2 (100% white) on my last attempt. Warm color temp, BT709 color space, all processing off.

All adjustments are 0-100 Scale
Backlight 55-65
Contrast 90
Brightness 52
Color 50
Tint centered

My problem is this. I can not adjust Blue, Yellow, or Cyan around the CIE chart at all. No amount on Color or Tint on the CMS makes any difference. Green can adjust somewhat, but the only ones I can get to the targets or real close are Red and Magenta. Blue and Cyan shows zero changes. Yellow moves a little bit only.

My whole CIE chart is skewed to the right of the green and blue targets.

I am thinking that possibly this was meaning that my set, at this light output, was not capable of keeping the colors right. But I know from the calibration ChadB did on his one, that my light output is about the same and he was able to get his color targets correct on the CMS.

So my question is in general thoughts, how do I go about starting to fix it so Blue, Cyan, and Yellow can be brought to the right target points? Should I work with the backlight first and start to lower it down? Should I use the main color control and increase the color output?

What is the idea that someone in this situation would think of first trying? Once again, this is more or less just trying to learn more. My TV looks just fine with my other calibration I did. Just want to keep learning the ins and outs.
post #2 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by eghill1125 View Post

My problem is this. I can not adjust Blue, Yellow, or Cyan around the CIE chart at all. No amount on Color or Tint on the CMS makes any difference. Green can adjust somewhat, but the only ones I can get to the targets or real close are Red and Magenta. Blue and Cyan shows zero changes. Yellow moves a little bit only.

I'm guessing you're going to have to use 75% Saturated targets (as opposed to 100% Saturation,) to adjust the CMS on this set.

And for your next question: Yes, you'll probably have to live with the 100% Sat. targets being "stuck."

Freebie tip: Use "Standard" color space as this should switch between rec601 and rec709 decoding based on the signal type (480i/p vs 720p/1080i/1080p) ... also some LG sets' primaries are actually a bit closer to REC709 when color space is set to "standard."

Disclaimer: The above info is based on my experience with my almost 2yr old 42LK450 ... Happy calibrating ...

PS: Also, on my set the CMS works best if you leave the main color and tint controls at the default value "50."
post #3 of 15
Thread Starter 
Thanks HDTV..

I think I have tried just about everything at this point. My try last night gave same results as before. I end up using about the same numbers everytime. I do agree that Satndard Color space is best. The one I tried above was just to see if I could get the colors to shift correct or not.

This has been my typical attempts.

Backlight around mid point
Contrast - 83 ( shows all bars flashing on white clipping pattern )
Brightness - 50-51 ( 51 shows 17 flashing some and 50 may be hard to see if it is flashing )
Color and tint at default
Standard Color Space
Warm Color Temp

I have been using the 75%S/100%A patterns on the GCD disk or the 75% color patterns on AVCHD disk.

No matter what I try at this point, Blue is dead for calibrating. I know I am missing some experience to change it. That is all. Every setting I have messed with from Backlight to Contrast to Brightness to Color will not let me move that Blue reading to a target. Also doing a Saturation Sweep, 0, 25, 50, and 75% patterns have a noticeable purple hue to the blue. Only 100% has an actual Blue color. This is my main peeve with it. The wife even agreed and she could care less. Actually hates the meter and anything to do with it at this point. wink.gif It would seem as though I should be able to move my Blue Tint in the CMS to swing the target over towards blue from red, but it never moves. It will jump a little the right way and then move right back and never seems to move anywhere.

My grayscale, gamma, and luminance charts always look good. Some of my grayscale numbers actually show 0.0 and 0.2% DE through a good portion of the 10 points. I do have to lower red and blue in the grayscale 2 point and 10 point a good amount to start with though. Somewhere around -25 to -30 on each for 2 point. They start at around 106% red, 97% green, and 108% blue for 80% or 100% white pattern.

At this point, I am open to trying any crazy suggestions. Does lowering contrast more open the color space up more? Moving down to 80 on contrast give more blue to work with? Should I add some main color to 51 and try? No idea and willing to go in any direction to see some kind of movement away from the purple satuaration blues.
post #4 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by eghill1125 View Post


No matter what I try at this point, Blue is dead for calibrating. I know I am missing some experience to change it. That is all. Every setting I have messed with from Backlight to Contrast to Brightness to Color will not let me move that Blue reading to a target. Also doing a Saturation Sweep, 0, 25, 50, and 75% patterns have a noticeable purple hue to the blue. Only 100% has an actual Blue color. This is my main peeve with it. The wife even agreed and she could care less. Actually hates the meter and anything to do with it at this point. wink.gif It would seem as though I should be able to move my Blue Tint in the CMS to swing the target over towards blue from red, but it never moves. It will jump a little the right way and then move right back and never seems to move anywhere.

Without having access to the set, I'd just be guessing at this point. For starters I don't know if your set has a full 3D HSL CMS or the crippled 2D HL (tint/color) version on mine. In my case, I would up concentrating on lining up the hue (tint) axes and left the color (luminance) adjustments alone.

On my set, you can move all of the 75% Saturated points a fair distance (at least in hue,) although, I don't recall if you can hit the exact expected target values.

As for the purplish blues *... yep, I see that too and to be honest I'm not sure what's happening there ... all I know is my i1pro says the 75% Sat blue target is on the right line if not the exact point. YMMV

* Edit: I'm pretty sure I saw this same (purplish) effect on my old CRT RPTV, but I haven't fired it up in a couple of years. I could be mis-remembering
Edited by HDTVChallenged - 4/11/13 at 10:56am
post #5 of 15
Thread Starter 
Yeah. Mine has just the HL adjustment only in the CMS, not the HSL. I may try again and use the THX settings as a starting point. They show up on my set with color at 53 to start instead of 50. This is pretty frustrating at this point to have a good grayscale and not be able to figure the rest out.
post #6 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by eghill1125 View Post

Yeah. Mine has just the HL adjustment only in the CMS, not the HSL. I may try again and use the THX settings as a starting point. They show up on my set with color at 53 to start instead of 50. This is pretty frustrating at this point to have a good grayscale and not be able to figure the rest out.

It may be that there's nothing (else) to figure out. wink.gif

From what you've posted, it appears that your set has inherited most of the same quirks as mine. So with that assumption here's what I'd do.

1) Do *not* try to use the CMS Color controls to "fix" saturation issues ... you'll wind up doing more harm than good. The luma errors that you'll introduce are much more noticeable than saturation errors.

2) *Do* use the CMS tint controls to line up the 75%, 50% and 25% saturated targets on the appropriate axes ... in fact, just concentrate on the 75% points. Again, don't sweat it if you can't hit the exact saturation value(s), the hue "angle" is more important.

3) Accept that you're not going to be able to "fix" the 100% Saturated primaries. The secondaries should move in hue, but again the 75% Sat. points are more important.

In short, it's better to have 90-95% of the gamut correct than try to "force" the edges of the gamut triangle to submit.

As always, YMMV.
post #7 of 15
nice one HDTV , thank you for explaining your approach of the 2D CMS LG has.

This CMS is an real struggle and leaving a "perfect point goal" out of the calibration procedure is a real good advice...THANKS
post #8 of 15
Thread Starter 
A quick question on what HDTVChallenged and I have both seen on our LG sets regarding the purple-blue on the satruration sweeps of blue from 0-75%.

Does the Service menu values differ overall from the user menu with adjustments to these LG sets? I can enter my service menu with no concerns of hurting the TV and have been in and out of it many times, so no worries there.

I guess what I mean is my set comes out of the box on a 80% gray pattern with Red and Blue tracking 8-15% above green. I use the 2 point controls to bring the red and blue down to green at 100%. Then when I go do the CMS, I can not move blue, yellow, or cyan at all to line them up with their targets. No amount of Luminance or Hue will move the reading to the target. Plus or minus adjustments. They are basically at thier limits and will not budge.

I was wondering if I made my adjustments in the service menu to bring red and blue down to 100% with green if that would be different than the 2 point? Then I would skip the user 2 point and just do a touch up with the 10 point. Would this help me be able to move blue around the CIE chart or is it going to be the same?

It just seems that with the 2 point and 10 point user settings that even with a perfect 6504 color temp and all colors almost equal along the grayscale from 10-100%, there has to still be a red push showing purple instead of blue at 0-75% blue saturation levels.

I am hoping one of the pro calibrators here have some experience with the LG LED sets and know whether the service menu adjustments will help get the red out of the other colors better than the user menu adjustments. I am going to try and do my white balance in the service menu tonight anyways and see for myself, just wondering if I am waisting my time before I even start.

PS. Thanks again HDTVChallenged for trying to help out here. I agree with Killerbeenl that the LG CMS is a bear to try and get right.
post #9 of 15
Thread Starter 
I worked until the wee hours of the morning last night and tried the 75% saturation patterns again. I think the results are as good as I can get being the novice at this that I am. Still visibly purple on my Blue saturation points, but nothing seems to help that. The Backlight on this set seems to increase blue more than anything when turned up. I would like get a day output around 43 FtL, but that seems difficult to dial in with a higher backlight. I did throw on the Local dimming on my after calibration and ran a grayscale with it on, but the colors shift significantly, so I will probably leave it off unless watching a dark movie at night and get distracted by the milky black bars. Then I might turn it on during the movie.

Thanks to everyone on this forum for giving me help the past few weeks as I learn the ins and outs of how this stuff works.

I included a baseline default and my after report here. Is anything glaringly out of whack? I can't see anything by charts that looks bad. I think if anything, is that I needed to convince myself that reading the review sites and there numbers isn't always the way to go. All of these sites state a contrast of around the defaullt of 90. I can not get anywhere near that without clippping Blue, Red, and Magenta.

With these charts, should I be done and watch TV now? Or is there something that I could squeeze out with some more tinkering?

Baseline Default.zip 1k .zip file
Expert 2 - 32.5 FtL.chc.zip 14k .zip file
post #10 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by eghill1125 View Post

A quick question on what HDTVChallenged and I have both seen on our LG sets regarding the purple-blue on the satruration sweeps of blue from 0-75%.

Does the Service menu values differ overall from the user menu with adjustments to these LG sets? I can enter my service menu with no concerns of hurting the TV and have been in and out of it many times, so no worries there.

My take on the "purplish" blues: My i1Pro tells me that my 75% point is correct in Hue, while the actual 100% saturated Blue primary is *not.* YMMV. After watching over 2500Hrs of actual programming since my last calibration run, I've never had even a itch of an inkling that something "looks wrong" in the blues ... in fact, it's the opposite.

As for the SM, I've never felt the need to go poking around in there. So ...

Frankly, if you need it to be more accurate than what the user controls allow, you're probably about to dive into the world of Lumagens a/o ColorBoxes and 3D LUTs

Part of the "Art" of calibration is knowing when to 'quit while you're still ahead.' wink.gif
post #11 of 15
Eghill, might I ask what hardware and software you're using? I have this TV and was thinking about getting into home calibration but was up in the air about what to purchase. (I have several other monitors/tv's too, but 5600 is the main tv.)
post #12 of 15
Thread Starter 
Tsantsa.... I am using the Colormunki Display with HCFR and the AVSHD and GCD disks.

HDTV.... Agreed. I have seen nothing in watching the TV that I would have even thought about the blue not being blue. Just the patterns show it. real world viewing doesn't seem to at all.
post #13 of 15
I have a ColorMunki coming next week. Is this your first foray into calibration? I ask because it will be my first time...oooo a new hobby! wink.gif
post #14 of 15
Thread Starter 
Yes.. this is the first time I did this stuff myself. I have had my TV calibrated before, but never tried it on my own.

From what I have seen. You need time and patience. You also need to get by the family getting aggrevated everytime you want to check something. My wife sometimes wants to smash the TV when I won't quit messing with it.

Other than that, I actually enjoy doing it. I don't think it takes much to get the picture on your TV looking good with a meter and software. The tricky part for me was accepting it as done. I have a bad habit of trying to do a little more each time and end up back at the beginning again.

Remember to ask questions here from some of these guys. They are really helpful on a lot of the changes and why things do what they do on the TV's when you make the changes.

Good luck to ya..
post #15 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by eghill1125 View Post

HDTV.... Agreed. I have seen nothing in watching the TV that I would have even thought about the blue not being blue. Just the patterns show it. real world viewing doesn't seem to at all.

A final thought: On my LK450, the 100% Saturated blue primary *can* be nudged pretty close to the Rec709 definition, however doing this shifts everything else along the blue axis too far toward magenta. Again the solution is to use the 75% Saturated point. It's *very* tempting to try to make that 100% blue primary hit the exact x,y coordinate. This would be a mistake (on my set.) wink.gif
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