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F8500 Recommended Settings Thread..... - Page 45

post #1321 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

So.... I installed 1112 two days ago after not hearing from anyone here with complaints.
I jumped from 1104.

Flesh tone has changed. Very slightly too pinky-yellow-orange and washed out.
Whites not the same. Weird stuff going on.
CNN is a great one to test with as they are all makeup'd to the hilt. The makeup and bright lights emphasize what you see on their faces in the studio.

Going to do a new cal as soon as I can.

-This really means all you folks getting calibrations from the big boys, be really cautious upgrading FW, as it could 'uncalibrate' your TV.

As Samsung are so vague over what gets fixed each release it doesn't help the end user whatsoever. Shame on them.

Thanks pieandchips i'm in ireland and we and the UK are on 1110 so assume we'll be jumping to 1112 soon enough.
Looking forward to your settings smile.gif
post #1322 of 2097
I applied 1112 right after my set was delivered a few weeks ago so I can't tell what effect, if any, it had. My picture and color look good to my eye after using the Spears & Munsil disc. I was considering getting my set professionally calibrated soon but reading how firmware updates possibly frag the calibration has me skittish now. Is Samsung not aware that owners are having these sets calibrated?
post #1323 of 2097
^ 1103 was the last one I have found that did this.
It seems to be every time they address the brightness pop bugs which there are reports of Samsung saying they 'fixed' 3D pops. Was it 1105 where they said they fixed 3D pops?

I have missed multiple versions coming from 1104, so I can't tell you which one changed the base values (thus wrecking calibrations) IF they have.

'Something' is different and that was very apparent as soon as I updated. Only slightly, but my wife noticed and mentioned it, and I didn't tell her I had updated the FW. She was my blind tester and noted flesh tones to be different and asked whether I had changed some settings.
post #1324 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

So.... I installed 1112 two days ago after not hearing from anyone here with complaints.
I jumped from 1104.

Going to do a new cal as soon as I can.

Hello P & C..
Have you seen the data posted on this thread (see below) and my measurements of my 51'F8500 ?
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1415546/patterns-to-measure-mll-as-a-function-of-apl#post_23706135

Perhaps you can make some measurements yourself when you get around to re-calibrating after the last firmware.
It would be great for another 51F8500 owner with the tools get more data on this.
Personally, I realy hate the way these panels "float black" and the fact that you cannot activate the black optimizer with streaming/external media.

Thanks
Todd
post #1325 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by todd95008 View Post

Hello P & C..
Have you seen the data posted on this thread (see below) and my measurements of my 51'F8500 ?
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1415546/patterns-to-measure-mll-as-a-function-of-apl#post_23706135

Perhaps you can make some measurements yourself when you get around to re-calibrating after the last firmware.
It would be great for another 51F8500 owner with the tools get more data on this.
Personally, I realy hate the way these panels "float black" and the fact that you cannot activate the black optimizer with streaming/external media.

Thanks
Todd

I produced some of the data for that thread. Yes, black floats. You'll never see it in day viewing and will have to look hard to see it at night --- but it's there.
post #1326 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

I produced some of the data for that thread. Yes, black floats. You'll never see it in day viewing and will have to look hard to see it at night --- but it's there.

Sorry, I see it big time at night.
This is especially true when switching from a bright scene to a dark one.
Then the panel takes a second or two to dial back to the low APL black level.
Which panel did you supply data on, F8500 ?

What would you think is an acceptable contrast ratio for a scene with say 21% APL ?
I just measured my panel again the other night and the data is the same.
So @ 35fLpeak white with 10% window size and 21% APL I get a CR of about 1650:1.
May be good enough for day but not for night (IMHO)...
post #1327 of 2097
This is way Off Topic in this thread, so if you object please direct me to a more suitable place to ask my questions. I thought I'd get answers when glenee started asking for help with calibration, but since he's been silent after acquiring his equipment, that didn't work out.

I have 3 inputs to the TV, all connected to HDMIx, where x is as follows:
1) STB, which is a Motorola DCH3416 cable box. Quality depends on the channel, but ABC, CBS and NBC are examples of where quality is excellent.
2) PS3. I use it for playing BDs and DVDs and it too is excellent.
3) HTPC. This is a Windows 7 box with Intel graphics HW and it DESPERATELY needs to be calibrated!

None of the inputs are renamed and all are set to use Movie mode.

Problem:
When the PC is selected as the source, the display is washed out and the colors are horribly wrong. The PC has only 3 controls. For each of Red, Green and Blue there is a Contrast, a Brightness and a Gamma control. Red is red and Green is green but Blue is black eek.gif .

I have a THX calibration DVD and an AVSHD709 DVD, plus the docs for WoW and AVSHD709. I believe I correctly understand Contrast and Brightness, but Gamma is Greek To Me confused.gif .

Questions:
I would be willing to pay a professional, but I suspect that nobody in southern California (Woodland Hills) wants to mess with a PC. If there is one who is willing, please suggest who.

What calibration disc do you recommend? Where do I get it?

Can I perform a reasonable color calibration "by eye"? If not, what do you suggest? Are there color samples I can hold next to the screen to compare what I see with what should be being displayed? If so, where can these be purchased?

Can you suggest which of Contrast\Brightness\Gamma should be changed to make Blue be blue? How do I know when the blue (red\green) I see is the "correct" blue (red\green) - or as good as its going to get?

Perhaps most importantly, what is the order of steps in a calibration? Where is this documented?
post #1328 of 2097
Hey, I'm still here everyday almost. I ended up taking Buzz's advice and go the chromapure setup with meter and software. I had been reading about this calibration stuff for about a year. There's just so much conflicting info, that you just don't know which way to go. I do know this and that is, if you don't ever go anywhere you will never get any place. So I just took the leap and I am just getting started and I mean started. I do think that one of the best things that I have done so far was I Paid the two dollars for Michael Chens Video Calibration series and have been watching those. There are 33 of them and I am on 17. He does a wonderful job of breaking down the information and actually showing a calibration from start to finish show each and every step. I think he is a ISF/THX Instructor and you can tell in the Video's the way he answer's the questions just about the time you were thinking of asking them. It is most likely going to be the best $150.00 I spend on my self taught Calibration Journey. I think I am far enough in my training to take my first stab at this on Monday.
The best calibration Disc are the ones that are free here on AVS and chromapure's website. They are just as good if not better than any I own( and I own most). Pick out the software you think you feel the most comfortable with and then set down and watch Michael's Video's as he explains how to use and just what your doing with it. You will have the software in front of you and can click on stuff as he does and be sure and listen and watch about the progression of the Calibration Art. He mixes a little facts and humor along the way, so that you don't get bored and keeps you on the right path in your development.
For me personally, there is no way I could of done this right( well maybe in a few years) without this and it sure would of been a lot more confusing and frustrating.
I will tell you that the charts of other Calibration are sure a lot more interesting now that I know what that stuff represents.

That's What I Done.
Edited by Glenee - 10/11/13 at 5:57pm
post #1329 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by WantsNWarrants View Post

This is way Off Topic in this thread, so if you object please direct me to a more suitable place to ask my questions. I thought I'd get answers when glenee started asking for help with calibration, but since he's been silent after acquiring his equipment, that didn't work out.

I have 3 inputs to the TV, all connected to HDMIx, where x is as follows:
1) STB, which is a Motorola DCH3416 cable box. Quality depends on the channel, but ABC, CBS and NBC are examples of where quality is excellent.
2) PS3. I use it for playing BDs and DVDs and it too is excellent.
3) HTPC. This is a Windows 7 box with Intel graphics HW and it DESPERATELY needs to be calibrated!

None of the inputs are renamed and all are set to use Movie mode.

Problem:
When the PC is selected as the source, the display is washed out and the colors are horribly wrong. The PC has only 3 controls. For each of Red, Green and Blue there is a Contrast, a Brightness and a Gamma control. Red is red and Green is green but Blue is black eek.gif .

I have a THX calibration DVD and an AVSHD709 DVD, plus the docs for WoW and AVSHD709. I believe I correctly understand Contrast and Brightness, but Gamma is Greek To Me confused.gif .

Questions:
I would be willing to pay a professional, but I suspect that nobody in southern California (Woodland Hills) wants to mess with a PC. If there is one who is willing, please suggest who.

What calibration disc do you recommend? Where do I get it?

Can I perform a reasonable color calibration "by eye"? If not, what do you suggest? Are there color samples I can hold next to the screen to compare what I see with what should be being displayed? If so, where can these be purchased?

Can you suggest which of Contrast\Brightness\Gamma should be changed to make Blue be blue? How do I know when the blue (red\green) I see is the "correct" blue (red\green) - or as good as its going to get?

Perhaps most importantly, what is the order of steps in a calibration? Where is this documented?

I have my HTPC hooked up and it does not matter which HDMI port I use, looks great on all of them, same for picture mode so first the basics:
- Have you tried the HTPC HDMI on the other ports?
- Have you tried swapping out the HDMI Cable for the HTPC with one you know works, like you one you used for the STB

- Next, what do you mean "blue is black"? Where is blue black? I take it you get a proper picture on your PC Monitor?
- What video board is in you HTPC, Brand and Model, many have one HDMI and one DVI, make sure to use the HDMI with the TV and not DVI > HDMI, that you can use on your monitor fine.
- Have you tried the HDMI output you have hooked to the TV with one of your monitors to make sure that output is good?

As for the tuning, yes you can do it by eye and get close, even better with WOW (great for your first time, my favorite is DVE HD Basics, both of these take you through the basic controls in the right order and it is important that you do it in the right order. They also tell you which controls will interact, like Brightness and Contrast mess with each other, so after adjusting one it is good to go back and make sure the other is still good. For about half the steps you'll be looking at black/white/ and gray scales, color adjustments come last.

Most of the value from a professional tune is not that he/she has the right test equipment, it is about the "art" of messing with the controls in an iterative process and leaning on experience from doing many tunes, this is why Geek Squad is often not sited as good tuners, they often lack the experience needed to really make the tune worth while (apologies to the 4 Geek Squad people on the planet that are actually good at it...)

So unless you can find a tune person people can vouch for it is a real crap shoot what you'll get.

That said, if you are patient, very patient, you can put a pretty good tune on yourself, no as good a pro-tune done by a true pro, but likey as good or better than a "by the numbers" tune by someone with little or no experience. The good news is you already have what you need for a DIY tune, grab WOW and just give it a shot, worse case is that it is horrible and you just go reset it all, takes 2 seconds to start from factory again. I kid you not on the patience, plan to make a day of it, you are looking at several hours if you really get into it.

The one thing the tune discs will not do is explian or even attempt to have you mess with some of the deeper tune controls, like Gamma is a good one to leave alone, same for the White Balance and some of the others exposed to end users, if you can't get it with Cell light, Brightness, Contrast, Sharpness, Color, and Tint, the others will not help you out much.

You can get color panels, DVE has RBG filters in the package and WOW has a basic Gray filter, you can also buy other gray filters with many levels on it, remember most of your picture data is actually in the B&W picture, so if you don't get black, the grays, and basic white correct, nothing else will be right, seems counter intutive but WOW explains it pretty well in their tutorial, something anyone trying this should sit through, it is pretty good if not a little long.

A good pro will generally save you a LOT of time and will get you a better picture, personally I have only used a pro once and I honestly could not tell the difference so have not done that again and I would only consider it if I was not happy with my picture.

Anyway back to your PC, you can put a tune on your PC but uless you are very unhappy with your PC screen I would not bother, do the tune on the TV side, having both in play will just drive you crazy but your issue sounds like a bad cable, input, or card, that is why I would eleminate all of that first.

Good Luck!
post #1330 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by todd95008 View Post

Sorry, I see it big time at night.
This is especially true when switching from a bright scene to a dark one.
Then the panel takes a second or two to dial back to the low APL black level.
Which panel did you supply data on, F8500 ?

64F8500


Quote:
Originally Posted by todd95008 View Post

What would you think is an acceptable contrast ratio for a scene with say 21% APL ?
I just measured my panel again the other night and the data is the same.
So @ 35fLpeak white with 10% window size and 21% APL I get a CR of about 1650:1.
May be good enough for day but not for night (IMHO)...

Each display is what it is and acceptability of contrast ratio is subjectively up to you. This is why I watch a Panasonic VT in controlled lighting (below). I like black. In a bright room it makes no difference to me what so ever and I really like the F8500.

post #1331 of 2097
Oddities: Can some folks assist?

Firmware 1112, CAL-DAY / CAL-NIGHT enabled

It appears that a bug has prevented color space values from being stored per mode.- for instance if you change color space in Movie, the values mirror in CAL-DAY and CAL-NIGHT.
All other variables remain separate 'per mode'.

I have disconnected power for 30 mins, problem remains. I am loathed to perform a full reset.
Edited by pieandchips - 10/12/13 at 7:22am
post #1332 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

Oddities: Can some folks assist?Firmware 1112, CAL-DAY / CAL-NIGHT enabledIt appears that a bug has prevented color space values from being stored per mode.- for instance if you change color space in Movie, the values mirror in CAL-DAY and CAL-NIGHT.All other variables remain separate 'per mode'.I have disconnected power for 30 mins, problem remains. I am loathed to perform a full reset.

It's always been that way on the D series, maybe they are regressing?
post #1333 of 2097
^ Oh really? That's interesting. I was certainly able to store per mode before the upgrade.

It's also annoying as it was a great tool for before and after cals as well as comparing other cals.
Edited by pieandchips - 10/12/13 at 8:20am
post #1334 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

Oddities: Can some folks assist?

Firmware 1112, CAL-DAY / CAL-NIGHT enabled

It appears that a bug has prevented color space values from being stored per mode.- for instance if you change color space in Movie, the values mirror in CAL-DAY and CAL-NIGHT.
All other variables remain separate 'per mode'.

I have disconnected power for 30 mins, problem remains. I am loathed to perform a full reset.

Nice catch, I have found inconsistancies all over the place in the menu's depending on the souce, the source content, the picture mode and what changes per more and what does not. Are you sure it was any different before you added Cal-Day and night? Seemed to me it was like that out of the box, I messed with it a lot before finding the post on turning on Cal-Day and night, and had started to build a cross reference of what is active under what conditions but never finished it.
post #1335 of 2097
^ I have only ever used Movie, CAL-DAY and NIGHT. I opened up DAY and NIGHT when I first go the TV and use those modes for compare functions.
post #1336 of 2097
I could kick myself!

Thinking about it, this has resulted in the knock on effect of me suggesting changes to skin tone since the upgrade.-

My color space had changed to what Movie was set to which was a different range from a different CAL. I was using CAL-DAY at the time.

confused.gif

Truly a Homer DOH! moment.....
post #1337 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

I could kick myself!

Thinking about it, this has resulted in the knock on effect of me suggesting changes to skin tone since the upgrade.-

My color space had changed to what Movie was set to which was a different range from a different CAL. I was using CAL-DAY at the time.

confused.gif

Truly a Homer DOH! moment.....

So if you set the color space back to what it was for cal day/night is everything back to normal.
I thought firmware did something to the greyscale too ??
post #1338 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by WantsNWarrants View Post

Problem:
When the PC is selected as the source, the display is washed out and the colors are horribly wrong. The PC has only 3 controls. For each of Red, Green and Blue there is a Contrast, a Brightness and a Gamma control. Red is red and Green is green but Blue is black eek.gif .

Update:
After reading camaro's post and giving this some thought, I went to Device Manager and had it check for an updated video driver. That incremented the driver from version 8.10 to 9.17, which corrected helped the color problems. Where before the green was light and the blue was navy, now the colors are correct better.

However, the 9.17 video driver is much brighter (think "eye searing"), akin to increasing the cell light 3 or 4 notches, so I switched from Movie mode to Cal-Night and the results are acceptable.
post #1339 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by todd95008 View Post

So if you set the color space back to what it was for cal day/night is everything back to normal.
I thought firmware did something to the greyscale too ??

I returned settings to what they were, but still thought something was different.
It could have been a twofer.
post #1340 of 2097
Here's a 37fL / 2.25 gamma.

* Working on some tweaks - will post when ready.
Edited by pieandchips - 10/13/13 at 9:23pm
post #1341 of 2097
Did any of these firmware updates ever alter black level? Was 1103/4 the ones that tried to lessen floating blacks?

I'm wondering since you guys all have evolution kits on your tvs if you'll get a healthy dose of picture improvements from the G series of panels next year.
post #1342 of 2097
I am going to give it my first shot a Calibrating Monday. Do you think I should update to the latest Firmware first, or wait to see if there is any Major Bug's ?
Thanks,

Glen
post #1343 of 2097
^ I'd say get the latest and go for it.
At least you'd have a current datum point to move forwards from.
post #1344 of 2097
Thanks P&C,
I will get after it Tommorrow
post #1345 of 2097
So....

What level of nuts am I?

For the record I'm getting quite substantially different readings comparing AVS HD709 APL large vs Spears and Munsil v2 Equal Energy slides.
This TV does seem fussy.
From the looks of things so far, I am getting better results from Spears and Munsil.
Makes me wonder what the variances are between all slides and generators....
post #1346 of 2097
In Samsungs 10P white balance sub-Menu what do the intervals represent ? Is interval 1 10% Interval 2 20% and so on up to 10 equal 100% IRE for individual adjustment across the graph ? What are you actually adjusting there ?
Thanks,
Glen
post #1347 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenee View Post

In Samsungs 10P white balance sub-Menu what do the intervals represent ? Is interval 1 10% Interval 2 20% and so on up to 10 equal 100% IRE for individual adjustment across the graph ? What are you actually adjusting there ?
Thanks,
Glen

You are adjusting a look-up table consisting of 10 values that correspond to levels of the internal DSP's 10 bit scale for each color channel. So for example, level 1 is an adjustment for DSP level 152 (level 38 in 8 bit). If you have contrast in the 90-100 range then this level will also correspond to your source input level of 10% (level 38). What you are adjusting is the mapping of your input level (38) to the DSP level (156), adjust it upwards and level 38 will map to higher than 156, vice-versa for downward.
post #1348 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

You are adjusting a look-up table consisting of 10 values that correspond to levels of the internal DSP's 10 bit scale for each color channel. So for example, level 1 is an adjustment for DSP level 152 (level 38 in 8 bit). If you have contrast in the 90-100 range then this level will also correspond to your source input level of 10% (level 38). What you are adjusting is the mapping of your input level (38) to the DSP level (156), adjust it upwards and level 38 will map to higher than 156, vice-versa for downward.
I will have to check my Chromapure software and see if I can see what's moving on a continuous meter reading. Then try and find the correlation on the charts. I think my contrast level is around 77.
Thanks Zoyd
post #1349 of 2097
At that contrast you might be offset by a couple of levels by the time you get to the higher levels so for example level 8 adjustment might correspond to level 10 (235) input. This also means you are not using the full 10 bits of your internal processor but I doubt that's a significant issue.
post #1350 of 2097
Zoyd,
I really don't know much in the way of Calibrations. I just started. I kept putting it off cause I knew it was going to have quite a learning curve. My Forte has always been sound. I understand the Basic's and that's all. I do try to do most of my research myself and not be a bother too much. That's the reason I just paid and have been watching Michael Chen's training Videos. I knew I would have more questions than anyone would be willing to answer. I haven't even Bothered Buzz yet, even though he said just Holler.
Trying,
Glen
Edited by Glenee - 10/14/13 at 2:45pm
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